Should CAP Officer Basic Course be required for CAP officer promotions?

[ßτε]

I've been looking at the new CAP Officer Basic Course (CAP OBC) and I think we should require it for promotion to all CAP officer grades regardless of promotion method.

I also think we should remove the PME equivalent for the course since the majority of the course is CAP specific.

[CAP_truth]

I had to complete the old ECI 7C course to become 2nd. Lt. Back in the old days. We need more than just Level I and 6 months time in grade. The RM requires officers to complete basic and officer training we need to make our officer corp. more professional.

[RiverAux]

I don't have a problem requiring this for promotion to the next grade for those at any rank, so I'll vote yes. 

However, as a practical logistical matter, they don't appear to have enough spots to handle the large influx of people who would need to do this which could result in unnecessary delays in promotion.  So, that would need to be addressed.

[NC Hokie]

I voted no but there may be a bit of ambiguity in the question.  I don't want it to be a requirement for each and every promotion throughout one's CAP career, but I am in favor of requiring it for one's first promotion (SMWOG to 2nd Lt) or any special appointments (pilot, chaplain, prior military, etc.).

[tdepp]

Is the issue that we now have unknowledgeable or ill prepared officers or that "by golly, I had to do the course so everyone else should too"?  I'm not saying this is a good or bad idea (actually, it sounds like a good idea) but is there an actual problem that needs to be addressed? 

Remember, we are a volunteer organization.  Any requirements should be carefully considered so as to balance time required of a member v. how that requirement enhances our three missions and the vitality of the organization.

[Walkman]

I haven't taken the OBC yet, so I can't speak to that specifically. However, when I joined I was hoping for more training like this.

I'm not saying anything about the "status" of SMWOGs or CAP 2dLt's, I just wanted to learn more and train more right off the bat.

[Eclipse]

Is the issue that we now have unknowledgeable or ill prepared officers...

Yes.

[ßτε]

I voted no but there may be a bit of ambiguity in the question.  I don't want it to be a requirement for each and every promotion throughout one's CAP career, but I am in favor of requiring it for one's first promotion (SMWOG to 2nd Lt) or any special appointments (pilot, chaplain, prior military, etc.).

I was thinking it would need to be taken once, and it would count for all subsequent promotion.
I guess we would need to allow those who have completed ECI 13 to count as well.

[Hawk200]

.... I am in favor of requiring it for one's first promotion (SMWOG to 2nd Lt) or any special appointments (pilot, chaplain, prior military, etc.).

Second.

[heliodoc]

CAP has had issue with this for YEARS...so I say yes it ought to have an OBC

Borrowing the AF ECI methods and allowing us to work within that realm for the earlier years has been the that a era's mainstay

Jump to 2010 and now we got ONLINE courses somehow going to be the savior of the leadership program.

Maybe CAP leadership at the Wing and Region levels need to be beefed up.

Rather than having all those RSC and NSC's for the selected few who want to attain Level 5, CAP ought to start thinking about a truly Regional training program where a SM rather than going to a Wing Conference for the brownie points, has to go through a program like Iowa had and apparently lost.  Rather than having "fun" encampments for Senior Members and SM's who think running a few encampments meets OBC and leadership and checking off boxes for "leadership" it's time for a good old 2 week 0500 to 2230 regime of training at a site, learning, doing, simulating.  By this I don't mean DI's, campaign hats, isuues and perceptions of hazing, but of sheer boring study of the regulations, filling out the proper paperwork, etc, so EVERYONE in CAP is REQUIRED to do it the SAME WAY and by the due date.  This includes the awards issues that seem to be readily apparent that alot of Group, Wing , and Regions Commanders like to sit upon for months at a time, leaving the awardees wondering WTH is my award.  The OBC at the start we set a SOLID FOUNDATION for all to follow even if one is 55-70 yr old Group / Wing  / Region Commander who THINKS they can sit on paperwork..That is where the OBC comes in.......early training INSTILLED so it follows one all through their CAP careers, if they so choose.  There are plenty of "high ranking" CAPers that could stand to got through a repeat of OBC type courses, ''cuz many have forgotten some of the very basic leadership principles they love to espouse....

CAP relying upon SLS, CLC, and UCC courses for 2 day stints is JUST a primer and really is just sit down with no real scenario based training to it.  Granted one can get into groups and talk the day away about uniform wear, but there really has got to be more meat on ANY CAP program if the  CAPTalkers here are even serious about it.

CAP NHQ has had PLENTY of time with and without the USAF  support to come up with something.....

Just imagine all that R&D money and money being spent on IT for all this online education craze that CAP seems so bent upon.

OBC, ANYWHERE, in the RM has been resident courses and its about time CAP does likewise if they want the modicum of respect it so dearly wants out of its "officer corps."  Otherwise you get what you currently get (online and otherwise) with minor improvements over the 68 year period

[davidsinn]

CAP has had issue with this for YEARS...so I say yes it ought to have an OBC

Borrowing the AF ECI methods and allowing us to work within that realm for the earlier years has been the that a era's mainstay

Jump to 2010 and now we got ONLINE courses somehow going to be the savior of the leadership program.

Maybe CAP leadership at the Wing and Region levels need to be beefed up.

Rather than having all those RSC and NSC's for the selected few who want to attain Level 5, CAP ought to start thinking about a truly Regional training program where a SM rather than going to a Wing Conference for the brownie points, has to go through a program like Iowa had and apparently lost.  Rather than having "fun" encampments for Senior Members and SM's who think running a few encampments meets OBC and leadership and checking off boxes for "leadership" it's time for a good old 2 week 0500 to 2230 regime of training at a site, learning, doing, simulating.  By this I don't mean DI's, campaign hats, isuues and perceptions of hazing, but of sheer boring study of the regulations, filling out the proper paperwork, etc, so EVERYONE in CAP is REQUIRED to do it the SAME WAY and by the due date.  This includes the awards issues that seem to be readily apparent that alot of Group, Wing , and Regions Commanders like to sit upon for months at a time, leaving the awardees wondering WTH is my award.  The OBC at the start we set a SOLID FOUNDATION for all to follow even if one is 55-70 yr old Group / Wing  / Region Commander who THINKS they can sit on paperwork..That is where the OBC comes in.......early training INSTILLED so it follows one all through their CAP careers, if they so choose.  There are plenty of "high ranking" CAPers that could stand to got through a repeat of OBC type courses, ''cuz many have forgotten some of the very basic leadership principles they love to espouse....

CAP relying upon SLS, CLC, and UCC courses for 2 day stints is JUST a primer and really is just sit down with no real scenario based training to it.  Granted one can get into groups and talk the day away about uniform wear, but there really has got to be more meat on ANY CAP program if the  CAPTalkers here are even serious about it.

CAP NHQ has had PLENTY of time with and without the USAF  support to come up with something.....

Just imagine all that R&D money and money being spent on IT for all this online education craze that CAP seems so bent upon.

OBC, ANYWHERE, in the RM has been resident courses and its about time CAP does likewise if they want the modicum of respect it so dearly wants out of its "officer corps."  Otherwise you get what you currently get (online and otherwise) with minor improvements over the 68 year period

You going to pay 2 weeks worth of wages for 10s of thousands of volunteers? You going to explain to my wife why we can't take a vacation?

[ZigZag911]

.... I am in favor of requiring it for one's first promotion (SMWOG to 2nd Lt) or any special appointments (pilot, chaplain, prior military, etc.).

Second.

Works for me.

[heliodoc]

Yeah

I've the the argument about the two weeks of wages and volunteers stuff also.

Then CAP and its "officer corps" ought to be just happy enough with what they got and move and stop worrying about all this "stuff in a volunteer organization."

Maybe then, CAP NHQ ought to have a mandatory  4 weekend training OBC before any one gets there little butter bar

All these folks arguing two weeks of this and that are maybe the same ones giving up one week at a time to play TAC Officer or play Encampment Commander at an encampment possibly re living there days gone by on active duty or whatever....gotta be able to priortize

CAP, I would suppose is about choices, if one can spend a week or two here and there for encampments, RSC's and NSC's, then surely there is enough vacation time doing these deals and not an OBC?  C'mon!

CAP has really never really taken thew OBC or leadership too seriously....there were probably hoping all the retired AF and Army Officer would step right up and become CAP professional volunteers, weren't they?

Didn't always happen that way and that is quite possibly the reason "CAP leadership" is in the shape it is today!!  Too many folks want to be in charge and sometimes realize its more than they can give monetarily and vacation time wise

[davidsinn]

Yeah

I've the the argument about the two weeks of wages and volunteers stuff also.

Then CAP and its "officer corps" ought to be just happy enough with what they got and move and stop worrying about all this "stuff in a volunteer organization."

Maybe then, CAP NHQ ought to have a mandatory  4 weekend training OBC before any one gets there little butter bar

All these folks arguing two weeks of this and that are maybe the same ones giving up one week at a time to play TAC Officer or play Encampment Commander at an encampment possibly re living there days gone by on active duty or whatever....gotta be able to priortize

CAP, I would suppose is about choices, if one can spend a week or two here and there for encampments, RSC's and NSC's, then surely there is enough vacation time doing these deals and not an OBC?  C'mon!

CAP has really never really taken thew OBC or leadership too seriously....there were probably hoping all the retired AF and Army Officer would step right up and become CAP professional volunteers, weren't they?

Didn't always happen that way and that is quite possibly the reason "CAP leadership" is in the shape it is today!!  Too many folks want to be in charge and sometimes realize its more than they can give monetarily and vacation time wise

Serving a week as a TAC officer is far more productive than sitting in a classroom for a week.  What possible gain could we have by sitting in a classroom when you lose the ability to serve as a TAC officer that year or other similar things. Some people can only respond to missions by burning vacation time. You constantly get on your high horse about us not knowing how the real world works. Guess what? You don't either. The real world is made up of people like me that have to work to survive and can't burn that kind of time for classroom work at such a low level. RSC is one thing because you already have five years of experience to build on. Throwing a newbie into that is a very good way to run them off.

[heliodoc]

No high horse here

TAC officer more productive?  To some in CAP...Yes   To others that are trying to get a handle on the leadership and other issues in CAP maybe they would honestly would want some sort of coherent  and standardized training that MEANT something to the volunteer membert

Laid off for 7 months now curtailing many CAP activities and doing what I can to survive the economy and apply for work.....I don't need some CAPTalker here telling me about the economy and having to work to survive

No high horse here...folks have to realize as I do 1) this IS a Volunteer organization and to think we are going to be as sharp as the military and wanting alll these type of dream OBC course that everyone on CAPTalk thinks ought to happen and pushing all these requirements and more in CAP as far as having a "real professional CAP officer corps" based on some arbitrary online courses thinking that is going to make leaders of men, women, and cadets is bunk

CAP is about burning vacation where one can ...how do YOU suppose things get done in CAP unless one is growing money trees in their back yard

High horse??   NAAAWWW CAP has no\t changed much in 30 yrs ....technology wise, YES...Leadership wise and the ability to train it to a coherent standard.  NO

OBC low level??  Is that meaning folks are just CAP volunteer minions?? 

Mr Sinn after 20 years on the fireline, 22 yrs as an aircraft mechanic on some of the finest helicopters, 10 years  total in CAP...I guess I do not know what I am talking about so I will defer to tyou and Mr Eclipse as the only ones in CAP that work and KNOW everything and are willing to tell everyone how you have to work to survive.....

Again you sir, know everything..  Thank you Mr Sinn for your valued volunteer opinion!!!

[Hawk200]

Maybe then, CAP NHQ ought to have a mandatory  4 weekend training OBC before any one gets there little butter bar

Things that make you go "hmmmm". Might not really be all that bad idea. Some type of formalized training.

All these folks arguing two weeks of this and that are maybe the same ones giving up one week at a time to play TAC Officer or play Encampment Commander at an encampment possibly re living there days gone by on active duty or whatever....gotta be able to priortize

CAP, I would suppose is about choices, if one can spend a week or two here and there for encampments, RSC's and NSC's, then surely there is enough vacation time doing these deals and not an OBC?  C'mon!

Gotta agree with this. Know more than a few people that have gone to encampment, but "don't have the time" for anything else.

CAP has really never really taken thew OBC or leadership too seriously....there were probably hoping all the retired AF and Army Officer would step right up and become CAP professional volunteers, weren't they?

Didn't always happen that way and that is quite possibly the reason "CAP leadership" is in the shape it is today!!  Too many folks want to be in charge and sometimes realize its more than they can give monetarily and vacation time wise

When I first joined, I was told that there were a lot of military retirees that "ran the program". Within my first year, I can't say I saw many. Being both military and CAP seemed to be an anomoly in the area I was.

Leadership isn't a few online classes, and a couple of sit down presentations in a weekend. Some longer term programs need to be run.

I still think that a person shouldn't make that butterbar in just six months. I think a four weekend program (at a rate of one per quarter) should be run, with some "homework" in the manner of online sessions, would go a long way towards people making steps instead of crawling. Could be set up as a standard Wing administered program, maybe allow it to be run by Groups that are large enough with the available resources. One weekend class every quarter, four different groups each weekend for each "phase".

Once you finish all four of the weekends, as well as the related academia, you get the bar. Advance promotions would be a different animal, obviously, it wouldn't be too hard to figure something out.

There are people out there that put more volunteer time into the Red Cross, Salvation Army, police/Sherrif Reserves, the various Lodges, local community watches, hospital volunteering, crossing guard duty, etc. I remember the thread here where people thought it was perfectly acceptable to grant a Community Service Ribbon to a cadet that helped his mom at work. That's a joke.

Anything that doesn't take a whole lot to earn is pretty easy to walk away from. Things that require investment and make impact on a person's life are the things that people stick with.

I think too many CAP members are happy with the carrot they managed to get. Too bad there's not a garden over the next hill in the offing.

[heliodoc]

Thanks for the assist, Hawk......

CAP probably has to many folks thinking CAP can match RM in the OBC and other related training....

There's ALOT more to CAP leadership than Online courses and "fun times" to run an organization

Also that it MIGHT requiring giving up more than a little vacation time....don't see too many ARC types and other volunteer whining about their vaca time!!!

[Eclipse]

Also that it MIGHT requiring giving up more than a little vacation time....don't see too many ARC types and other volunteer whining about their vaca time!!!

And neither is anybody here, and again you need to knock it off.

Your assertion that members who give up weeks of vacation and other time off to serve at encampments is some how less important
than other CAP activities is so misinformed and belligerent it's incredible even for you.  That time is spent serving someone else, specifically the cadets, and most encampment staffers are hyper-involved in CAP on all levels - they are the same people you will see at all the PD functions, usually as instructors, and they'll be the ones running most of the ES missions, real or otherwise.

If you feel that service is not important to CAP, you have no idea what this organization is about.

[Short Field]

So this thread isn't about the 20 hr on-line CAP OBC but some type of two week in-residence course that would be required for all new members?  Bad idea.

The OBC comes about the right time for new members.  Sometime between when they join and when they have eighteen months TIG as a 1st Lt, they need to have gotten their tech rating and completed SLS and OBC.  Then they get promoted to Capt.  That gives what training they have received time to settle and take hold plus allows them some experience to provide context for SLS and OBC. 

The people who assume a two-week intensive course will solve all our leadership and mangement issues fail to realize that the course will be taught by the same people who are currently in our leadership and management positions.  What is going to be taught differently than what is taught or expected now?

[heliodoc]

OK OK OK

It will be SLS, CLC, UCC and online courses to provide the leadership opportunities for the membership of CAP.

Lack of resident courses of ANY sort just would be beneficial to CAP, accepting the already CAP leadership and quality training and standards that it has had over the many years

I get it!  CAPers just want to be "officers" and "in command" with what little training that already get and resident  courses are just TOOOO much work for somebody to suggest

I do get it!  CAP online courses....YAAAAYY   I am on my way to Colonel and "I am In command!"