PTSD and Mission Qualification and Status

[skydogjack]

This is a question that requires some background, but the question first.  As of current FAA medical desqualifing conditions, a diagnosis of PTSD and receiving disability is an automatic denial for a Class III medical. Many, otherwise highly capable and reliable pilots who seek help for wartime PTSD are now automatically denied or refused renewal of a Class III medical, ending their flying career and continued service, even as CAP pilots.  I've researched this issue, and it all boils down to the fact that PTSD is considered an anxiety disorder and receiving any disability income is evidence of a disqualifying condition.  Note, this does not apply to the Light  Sport Catgory, which does not require a medical.  The question is this.  Is CAP under any requirement to apply the same standard to other flight crew members, in other words, ban anyone with CAP from functioning as non pilot flight crew?

Background.  I went undiagnosed and untreated for PTSD for over 30 years, the culmination of my military service as a door gunner in Vietnam, services a police officer (my partner was murdered execution style before I could get to him), lost over a dozen officers in my career and ultimately was working in a classified position at a nuclear weapons lab, when it all caught up with me.  I was told to retire, get help and take a break.  That was 10 years ago.  After two months in a VA acute PTSD inpatient recovery program in 2003, then years of individual and group therapy, I'm better mentally and emotionally then in 30 years.  Oh, I was also a CAP SAR pilot at the time of my breakdown. So, I'm retired and on disability, am limited to flying Light Sport because of the flight medical situation (I also had four operations in the last two years, two for my eyes and two back surgeries to repair blown discs) and now see 20/25 uncorrected in both eyes, am back snow skiing, hiking with a 40 pound pack, am pain free for the first time in 30 years and feel like I'm back!  So, I've rejoined CAP, completed all the requirements for Scanner, just about done with Observer and accepted the responsibility as ES Officer and Photo Recon Officer.  I'm happier then ever, excited to be part of an organization I can use my skills (I even just completed my transition training to a Glass Cockpit) in the plane I fly, feel a sense of purpose for the first time in a long time, but I have not considered until I talked to a friend recently that CAP may consider me unfit due to my PTSD diagnosis and terminate my air operations status or worse, terminate my just brand new returning membership.  I can't even begin to say how demoralizing this would be.  Even though my records from all those years ago indicate I had SLS, I was temporary squadron commander, I'm already through the first module of the Officer Basic course, just started the second module and will finish all three in a few weeks, then apply for SLS and complete my Level II.

My personal question is this?  Am I wasting my time?  Is the effort, the study and all the time just going to end up being jerked out from under me?  The irony is I have a couple of saves when I was a CAP Mission Pilot and even flew fire spotting and counter drug in a mountain environment when I was getting no help for a really chronic and difficult condition.  I always did function even better under pressure.  Kinda funny if you think about it.  So now, I'm under almost no stress, have a comfortable life, and even though I functioned at a very high level for over 30 years without help or treatment, I live with the stigma of PTSD.

I'm at a point where I'm ready to give more, be a highly effect crew-member (I don't expect or even aspire to be a mission pilot again), if I'm in the right front seat, I'm a trained pilot, with high performance, complex and retractable endorsements, I do my BFR's to ASEL standards, even though I am limited to Light Sport, but I don't know how CAP or the Air Force will view me?  What do you think?

PS.  I'm on no medication except for seasonal allergies and AlevePM.

2nd Lt. Jack Harris
Civil Air Patrol

[SarDragon]

You're lucky that you can do Sport Flying. Once you've actually been denied a medical, even that's out.

I'm currently going through the medical process, along with cardiac issues, and gave gotten familiar with the applicable rules and regs. I haven't seen anything regarding medical issues/problems/requirements for non-pilot aircrew positions.

If someone's trying to give you the bum's rush, you should ask them to provide references in the rules and regs.

[PHall]

Don't need an FAA Medical to fly as a CAP Oberserver, Scanner or Aerial Photographer.
You do need a current FAA Class III or better to fly as a CAP Pilot.
So your days of flying in the left seat are over until you get your FAA Medical back.
The Aerial Photographer is the hot ticket these days.

[Spam]

Jack,

Welcome back in so many ways; you sound like you've established a positive rate of climb there!

See CAPR 36-1 Civil Air Patrol Nondiscrimination Program of 13 December 2012, at http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R036_001_D6D80CB431788.pdf for a start. Your participation in CAP, a federally funded program, is protected from discrimination on the basis of race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin or disability (formerly handicap), per both CAP policy (that reg), USAF policy (AFI 36-2707, covering all USAF funded programs), and Title 10, United States Code, Section 9441 (1976 and Supp IV 1980).

So, in practical terms, what does that mean. If you are asking about retaining an FAA medical and pursuing MP qualification, the onus would be on your ME and FAA examiner first, and CAP's ability to award an MP rating would be limited by their determination.  However, since you're asking only about right seat/back seat MO/MS qualification, there should be zero reason at all for any obstacle, and if you're told otherwise you need to inform them that you'll need to have a discussion with higher about a potential violation of CAP and USAF policy and federal law.

PHall's got a great point about pursuing an AP ticket!  Again, welcome back!

V/R,
Spam

[skydogjack]

Hey, thanks for the comments already.  It's been a long, hard fought road, but I'm wired to serve.  To have purpose.  Honesty and transparency are paramount to me.  Barring any unforeseen circumstances, you'll see me right where I'm supposed to be.  Putting my knowledge and skills to work where they are best used. 

Be safe and keep the rubber side down.

Jack

[JacobAnn]

Welcome back Jack.  CAP is a better organization with people like you.

[Garibaldi]

Just have to answer one of your questions on a human level. You ask if you are wasting your time.

The short answer is no.

It sounds like you've done more than a lot of people in your position. Best. Therapy. Ever.

Keep it up, and perhaps one day in the not so distant future you will get back in the left seat. I know a guy who has an artificial leg who flew regularly before he ran out of money. I'm trying to see if I can get hI'm in.

[Storm Chaser]

I agree with everyone's comments. The lack of an FAA medical will not preclude you from flying as an observer, scanner or airborne photographer. As long as your PTSD doesn't affect your duties in CAP, you should be able to fully participate in all programs, missions and activities. If your PTSD or any other condition ever presents a safety hazard to you or your other crew members, then your participation may be restricted. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Welcome back and enjoy your work in CAP!

[skydogjack]

Thanks again for such great votes of confidence.  Today was a milestone day for me, and my return to aviation.  All the retraining so I can fly Light Sport and all my CAP flying experience and mountain training came together.  If you could see the smile on my face.  Duats weather briefing, PUSH briefing one hour before flight, VFR Flight Plan, Flight Following with Center and mostly no use of the autopilot when you have Verga, rain, wind sheer and chop the entire way back. And a tough cross wind landing.  Yikes.  Another knot higher, and it was no landing for this guy. Plus, how important it is to be able to read wind patterns when navigating a mountain pass.  Which side to be on, planned escape routes, etc, etc.  Thank you again CAP.  You taught me well.

I came back the way I went due to too much weather building to the West.  Any more mountain flying this time of year and it's got to start at 6:00am in this little plane. I even made a couple of Pireps on the way back as I avoided cloud bases that showed signs of Verga, and I used Foreflight on my iPad and could see the weather.  That technology is just amazing.

The little plane I'm flying actually has a higher power to weight ratio then a 172.  It's just so darn light weight it really gets knocked around a lot.  It's a stick, which I actually prefer flying now.  Seems so natural.

If anyone would like to see my route of flight, here is my flight plan with fixes.

KSAF, RENCO, KLVS, CIM, (GPS N36 degrees, 32.30 minutes by W105 degrees, 15.31 minutes), KAXX

Again, thanks for all the support.....

2nd Lt. Jack Harris

[skydogjack]

Just a quick checkin.  My squadron commander is fully supportive of me, I've got my first sign off for Scanner and am really happy to see CAP as an organization that can see past the stereotyping of individuals, recognize their abilities, their limitations and value and bring people together to work as a team for the benefit of everyone.  Makes me proud to be back.

2Lt. Jack Harris

[JeffDG]

Just a quick checkin.  My squadron commander is fully supportive of me, I've got my first sign off for Scanner and am really happy to see CAP as an organization that can see past the stereotyping of individuals, recognize their abilities, their limitations and value and bring people together to work as a team for the benefit of everyone.  Makes me proud to be back.

2Lt. Jack Harris

My experience is that CAP is pretty good about accommodation where possible.  CAP cannot demand that the FAA grant a medical to someone, but absent an actual mission-inhibiting disability, they won't hold it against you.

By "mission inhibiting disability", I mean things that will impact your ability to do the mission.  If you violently and continuously vomit anytime in a moving airplane, Mission Scanner/Mission Observer may not be for you...

[skydogjack]

Thanks.JeffDG.  I had to laugh on the getting sick thought.  Many yeas ago I was crew on several sailboat deliveries across the ocean.  I was the one who never got seasick.  That, I'm happy to report is the least of my concerns.  Thanks again.

[NIN]

Thanks.JeffDG.  I had to laugh on the getting sick thought.  Many yeas ago I was crew on several sailboat deliveries across the ocean.  I was the one who never got seasick.  That, I'm happy to report is the least of my concerns.  Thanks again.

I was a crew chief on Chinooks. The first 60 days or so on crew status, I would barf pretty violently about every other flight.  Little bit of JP4 fumes in the heater, a little too hot in the cabin, overdressed for the occasion, wallowing around in the back of the aircraft in turbulence in the dark, etc.  Here comes the cookies!  It got to the point where a mission in the afternoon/evening, my pre-flight meal would be half a turkey sub from the shoppette and a milk, cuz I knew it would be "better" when I saw it again.

Got so bad my Flight Engineer said "Do we need to send you to the flight docs?" I told him I was just getting my sea legs.


(After 60 days or so, I was fine)

[AirAux]

Skydogjack,  You need to be sure and disclose all of your past medical history on your application.  PTSD is a bad one.  It got you once, it could get you again.  CAP may or may not want to have that liability on their back.  Sorry for all your problems, thanks for all you've done and best of luck.

[skydogjack]

AirAux, I get it, as does thousands of other veterans who learned a long, long time ago to not seek help, to suck it up and keep quite.  The problem you point out my friend, is dead on.  Organizations, including the military don't want to own the responsibility of what the costs of service really is.  Yes, it's libility concerns to be sure, but when soldiers, police officers and other emergency first responders know their job is at risk if they speak up, well, all you have to do is look at what just happened in Germany.  Does anyone think that pilot concealed his mental problems for any reason other then to protect his job, and his dream.

When all wars start out, there are lots of flag waivers, but when it's over, not so much, especially if the conflict and our involvement are considered failures.  I hate to break it to everyone, but these current wars?  The general attitude is they are now seen as failures by the public, and despite all the education out there regarding the consequences our soldier are paying, we can see the dismal failure of the VA and the military in taking care of their own. 

There is, unfortunately now an ever increasing attitude by business owners to not want to hire returning veterans because of "libility" concerns regarding PTSD.  And AirAux, there is no, "once you've got it, you could get it again".  PTSD is a permanent condition that has no cure.  If someone has it, they can learn how to better deal with it and be functional.  I'm sorry, but the comment, "PTSD is a bad one".  Are you serious?  When we got back from Vietnam we were called "baby killers".  I've not killed any babies, and in fact a large part of my military PTSD was I refused an order to kill a small child with an M60 machine gun.  Yes, it haunted me for years, but I've come to peace with it.  And all the lives I saved as a police officer?  My PTSD did not turn me into a lunatic, someone who did not know the difference between right and wrong.  And my ability and skill to be a SAR pilot?  My PTSD did not effect that.  So, I'll put you on the spot.  Where s the libility and where do you come up with, "PTSD is a bad one"?  For me, it was going over 30 years without help or even being able to talk about my experiences.  That my friend is what makes it bad, and we as a nation are just repeating the same mistakes all over, just as we did with the soldiers of Vietnam.  Will we ever learn?

Respectfully,

2nd. Lt. Jack Harris

[skydogjack]

Oh, I've not been simply sitting around waiting for someone else to try and make some changes.  If you like, here is just one of my efforts over these last 10 years. If you want to skip the introduction, time index to 2 minutes, 10 seconds.

http://youtu.be/8CXpxCaZvtY

2nd Lt. Jack Harris

[skydogjack]

One other thought.  Regardless of my future with CAP, this is the perfect forum for this discussion.  When your ES, whether air or ground crew, the ability, the knowledge that you can seek help, especially if it involves loss of life, mass distraction, that ability is essential to get ahead of developing Ong term ptsd. This is actually now part of CAP and Air Force philosophy. Research has now shown that immediate help plays a large role in helping first responders and military to minimize the development of ptsd symptoms.  The problem still is, people will not seek help if they believe they will be punished.

[AirAux]

Skydogjack,

In response to:"Where s the libility (sp) and where do you come up with, "PTSD is a bad one"?"  You noted, "ultimately was working in a classified position at a nuclear weapons lab, when it all caught up with me.  I was told to retire, get help and take a break.  That was 10 years ago.  After two months in a VA acute PTSD inpatient recovery program in 2003"  what happened that you ended up in an inpatient recovery program?  What did you do?  As you said, once you have it you always have it.  There is always the chance that you will snap again or do whatever happened last time.  Allowing the patient to state when they are well is not good medicine.  A friend of mine was killed instructing in a twin engine when the student went bezerk and crashed the aircraft.  To keep quiet to save your job and then cause the death of 150 others makes one aware that people with these illnesses can not be depended upon to make proper decisions.  Obviously something you did caused you to end up inpatient.  Could that possibly happen again?  I am promilitary.  I am a veteran.  I am in the medical field and I am in the legal field.  Further, I work with disabled people on a daily basis.  Unfortunately PTSD is being used in the mental health field like candy.  10 year olds to 90 year olds.  A radio operator that never saw any action in Afganistan.  Stayed at the post all the time.  Several of his buddies were killed.  Not when he was anywhere around.  This is downplaying the true PTSD survivors.   

[skydogjack]

AirAux,

Personal attack are not necessary.  I work for helping people and veterans.  I'm for giving people a chance, just as the FAA grants waivers for commerical airline pilots who have a PTSD diagnosis. If absolute risk "avoidance" is your goal, then we got a lot of pilots, service men and women and first responders that need to be sidelined and find a new career. Tell yoy what, PM me and les exchange phone numbers and we can talk n person, and I'll tell you what took me over the edge to the extent I can, because guess what?  Much of it was and still is classified.  Deal?

[skydogjack]

AirAux, I sent you my contact info and some additional personal info on myself in a PM. I'm inviting you to dialogue with me.  We may not agree on everything, but I believe, as I said in my PM, this topic is too important for either of us to hijack it with personal opinums? Agreed? Let's talk.  W can do more to help as allies, then adversaries....