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CAP Battle Streamer

Started by Gunner C, March 18, 2008, 05:10:37 AM

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baronet68

Quote from: RiverAux on March 18, 2008, 10:06:04 PM
I definetely don't think it would be appropriate for CAP-USAF to have one.  However, keep in mind that these missions were flown by specific patrol bases.  I'm not sure exactly sure where those bases were in the command structure, but I'm reasonably sure that they were not under the control of the Wings where they were based. 

But, under the theory that if an Army unit was eligible for a streamer then the "Army" was as well, then CAP NHQ could probably claim one.  However, it would probably depend on what the criteria are for award of such streamers and I sort of doubt there is an allowance for issuing them to a civilian organization. 

Incidentally, exactly what campaign streamer would this be? 

A while ago, I asked this very question of the National Historian.  To paraphrase his reply; When hostilities of WWII ended, all of the CAP squadrons were deactivated leaving only the CAP's AAF HQ active.  That organization received the streamer and later became CAP-USAF.
Michael Moore, Lt Col, CAP

RiverAux

That is not accurate.  I know my wing was continously active during and after WWII.   You might think that one of our organization's histories would have mentioned the total deactivation of CAP if it had actually happened.   

JohnKachenmeister

It may not be technically accurate, but it does explain the streamer, and why subordinate units did not get them.  Bases were ad-hoc task forces, and not numbered units with their own recognized colors, lineage, and honors.  The wings were administrative, and did not participate in the combat mission.  Only CAP generally could be honored with a battle streamer, and (apparently) CAP/USAF holds our wartime lineage and honors.

It still does not answer why individuals were not awarded the appropriate campaign medal, nor why persons engaged in combat and whose unit was honored with a campaign participation are not considered veterans.
Another former CAP officer

cnitas

That is interesting. 
Weren't there PBYs and other AAF aircraft involved in the Anti sub campaign? And weren't they assigned to 'units'?
Mark A. Piersall, Lt Col, CAP
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

JohnKachenmeister

PBY's were not AAF planes.  They were Navy exclusively.  Army aircraft would have been assigned to a unit, to be sure.  CAP was never organized in discrete combat units, even from the beginning.  CAP did not then, and does not now, deploy forces as units like the Army.  We deploy those individuals who volunteer, and organize them into task forces.  Task forces do not exist in the sense of being an ongoing unit with its own lineage and honors.

There are notable exceptions, of course, such as Merrill's Marauders.  They were given colors as a "Provisional" unit in recognition of their achievements in battle.  Their colors are now held by US Special Operations Command.
Another former CAP officer

cnitas

Yeah, the Navy.  I always forget about those guys  :)

It makes sense to me now.  I guess the Navy/Coast Guard took care of the Atlantic and the Army not so much (CAP is the exception).
Mark A. Piersall, Lt Col, CAP
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003

JohnKachenmeister

The Army lacked the bomber assets to patrol the coast.  That's why we were used.  The Navy lacked assets, too.  They could not come to shoot up a submarine stuck on a sandbar that CAP spotted because they did not have any ships or planes available.  Sad, but we were very unprepared for a 2-front war.

Another former CAP officer

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 19, 2008, 05:36:58 PM
The Army lacked the bomber assets to patrol the coast.  That's why we were used.  The Navy lacked assets, too.  They could not come to shoot up a submarine stuck on a sandbar that CAP spotted because they did not have any ships or planes available.  Sad, but we were very unprepared for a 2-front war.



Unprepared is one thing...jerry-rigging a bomb to what amounts to a barely air worthy plane is another...

I can't image what a landing with one of those bombs was like...how nerve wrecking would that be!?

P.S. Oh crud...didn't realize I was necroing this thread. My bad.

ol'fido

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 18, 2008, 10:49:50 PM
CAP as an organization was probably awarded a battle streamer for the American Defense Campaign.  The question would then be, who holds the lineage and honors of the subordinate units in the Anti-Submarine Campaign?  Obviously, the patrol bases no longer exist, but in some cases there may be a unit still meeting at the airfield which was a base.  Also, if the bases were never recognized as separate colors-bearing units, there would have never been any unit to award the streamer to.

My guess is that CAP as a whole was recognized, and should display the streamer on the National Headquarters color.  I doubt that individual participating bases were recognized, due to the nature of our organization.

But that brings up another point discussed earlier.

If CAP was awarded a battle streamer for Anti-Sub patrol, each person participating during the period of the award would be entitled to wear the American Defense Service Medal.  That means they would be entitled to VFW membership and veteran status.

Interesting.

I think you might mean the American Campaign Medal. The American Defense Service Medal wasn't  awarded after Dec. 7, 1941 IIRC. Some of the other military history buffs may check me on this, but I am reasonably sure of it.

Post # 300. Not much but getting there...slowly...very slowly.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

RRLE

You can find the lineage of CAP-USAF here. The claimed lineage is probably why they fly the battle streamer.


RiverAux

Hmm, I wonder if then it was a streamer that any unit that was based in the US during that period was eligible for and might not have any relationship to the the CAP anti-sub patrol at all.

FlyTiger77

I believe RiverAux is correct.

Of its 181 total campaign streamers, the Army flag carries only one campaign streamer from the  American Campaign of World War II. It is embroidered with "Antisubmarine 1941-1945." There are no more because Army units did not participate in combat in the American Campaign. (http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/UniformedServices/streamers_doc.aspx)

I think it is interesting to note that the CAP-USAF lineage and honors show the "World War II, American Theater" as a service streamer and not a campaign streamer, of which CAP-USAF is authorized none. I am by no means an expert in heraldry, but the differentiation to me seems to be that CAP-USAF received the award for participation in service in the campaign but not necessarily in combat.

As CAP-USAF's predecessor unit was an integral part of HQ, Army Air Forces (AAF) then it could have been eligible for the same campaign streamer as the Army flag carries. However, CAP-USAF was not established until mid-1943 by which time the majority of the antisubmarine campaign was over, if I recall correctly. This could be why things are the way they are.

If the all-volunteer Civil Air Patrol was still under the Office of Civil Defense, then that could be why we are not authorized the battle honors, as I would think those streamers would have been reserved for units under the Departments of War and the Navy.

If someone is a historian and/or expert in heraldry, please tell me I am all wet if I am off base here.
JACK E. MULLINAX II, Lt Col, CAP

BillB

Looks like people are mixing apples and oranges here. How can anyone say CAP-USAF existed in 1943 when there was no USAF until 1947? CAP organized under the Office of Civilian Defense, and was taken over by the Army Air Corp/ Army Air Force in 1943. However prior to 1943 it did operate under the War Department. Where do you think the bombs for coastal patrol came from Walmart? OCD did not arm CAP aircraft, the War Department, read that Army did. By 1943 the Army had B-24's and medium bombers that could assist Navy coastal patrol aircraft so that CAP was no longer needed.
CAP-USAF and CAP are two different organizations and it appears that there is confusion between the two.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

FlyTiger77

Quote from: BillB on March 07, 2012, 09:28:16 AM
Looks like people are mixing apples and oranges here. How can anyone say CAP-USAF existed in 1943 when there was no USAF until 1947?

I used CAP-USAF as a shorthand to include the current organization and it's predecessor units--"Civil Air Patrol (1 Jun 1943),  National Headquarters, Civil Air Patrol (15 Sep 1944), and Civil Air Patrol, USAF (28 Aug 1948)." I apologize for the confusion.

I guess my assumption that people would read the source material cited in the previous posts (http://www.afhra.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=15355)  prior to launching into a sarcasm-laced denunciation was faulty. Also, I guess my second assumption that by referring to the fact that "...CAP-USAF's predecessor unit was an integral part of HQ, Army Air Forces (AAF)..." that the same people might assume I understand the relationships, timing of the creation and the name changes in the current CAP-USAF's history was similarly faulty.

Having said that, CAP-USAF traces it origins back to mid-1943 through its predecessor units, in much the same way that the current 332nd Air Expeditionary Wing, lately of Joint Base BALAD, Iraq, traces its origins back to the Tuskegee Airmen (http://www.afhra.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=10613).

I am not sure that the fact that an OCD entity received materiel and munitions from the War Department would entitle the entity to battle honors (either Service, Campaign or Armed Forces Expeditionary streamers) from the War Department for action during that period, but again, I may be wrong.



JACK E. MULLINAX II, Lt Col, CAP

Luis R. Ramos

You are forgetting that the US Army Air Force did fly antisubmarine patrol. First was the B-18 Bolo, replaced by the B-24. The Bolo was an adaptation of the DC-2.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_B-18_Bolo

If you want to discredit the Wikipedia, do so. But first take a look at the references quoted on that article...

Luis Ramos

Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

ol'fido

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 19, 2008, 04:29:55 PM
PBY's were not AAF planes.  They were Navy exclusively.  Army aircraft would have been assigned to a unit, to be sure.  CAP was never organized in discrete combat units, even from the beginning.  CAP did not then, and does not now, deploy forces as units like the Army.  We deploy those individuals who volunteer, and organize them into task forces.  Task forces do not exist in the sense of being an ongoing unit with its own lineage and honors.

There are notable exceptions, of course, such as Merrill's Marauders.  They were given colors as a "Provisional" unit in recognition of their achievements in battle.  Their colors are now held by US Special Operations Command.
I realize that this is a necroed thread but in going over it again after it showed up in "new replies" I thought I would correct this one thing. Catalinas served in all branches of the armed forces and not just in the Navy. In the USAAF, they were known as OA-10s.
Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

flyboy53

#36
Quote from: Gunner C on March 18, 2008, 07:17:36 AM
Quote from: DNall on March 18, 2008, 06:41:04 AM
There wasn't an AF at the time. I'm not really sure how things were organized during the war, if there were regions or if the wings were broken down like they are now. It's not exactly an operationally effective system. I would think involved units could attach a streamer though.

Good question.  Historians?  Any help here? Were there wings/regions at that time?

Two things (from a historian).

Without going into a lot of the technical aspects, when President Truman signed the National Security Act in 1947 creating the Air Force, it severed those Army Air Force assets away from the Army into the newly created Air Force. Most people don't realize that in addition to the AAF, the Army still had an Air Corps (just like armored corps) and it was that organization that served as the basis for what we now know as Army Aviation. So, the Air Force assumed all the Army Air Force-related healdry and insignia, while the Army reverted to the pre-World War II colors (blue and a dark orange gold) and branch or corps insignia (a wing and prop device from the 1930s).

How does that relate to this discussion? The World War II organization of the Civil Air Patrol was formally assigned sometime in 1943 as the Army Air Force Auxiliary by President Roosevelt's executive order. Headquarters for the CAP was presented a Presidential Unit Citation for it's WW II service and some time in the 1980s, it was the Air Force that decided to set things right by presenting CAP-USAF with an American Campaign Medal battle streamer with bronze star for the Anti Submarine Campaign -- the only battle star authorized for that medal. And yes, Army Air Forces crews flew anti-sub missions in the American Theater during the war. If you read up on the history of the Doolittle Raiders, you will find that those B-25 crews were actually flying anti-sub patrols on the West Coast before their more famous mission.

The question should be if the parent organization (CAP-USAF) is authorized those two streamers for the CAP's WW II service, than why not the CAP itself? I believe something has been lost in translation over the years largely because of the years of lack-luster historical record keeping. Years ago, I had served under a rather crusty old CAP chief warrant officer who was a WW II member and wore the PUC on his uniform. When challenged one day, he actually had a copy of the order for the PUC to the CAP. I realize it isn't something than can be worn today, but it would be nice to see it on the CAP Flag.

PHall

Quote from: flyboy1 on April 08, 2012, 03:49:08 AM
Quote from: Gunner C on March 18, 2008, 07:17:36 AM
Quote from: DNall on March 18, 2008, 06:41:04 AM
There wasn't an AF at the time. I'm not really sure how things were organized during the war, if there were regions or if the wings were broken down like they are now. It's not exactly an operationally effective system. I would think involved units could attach a streamer though.

Good question.  Historians?  Any help here? Were there wings/regions at that time?

Two things (from a historian).

Without going into a lot of the technical aspects, when President Truman signed the National Security Act in 1947 creating the Air Force, it severed those Army Air Force assets away from the Army into the newly created Air Force. Most people don't realize that in addition to the AAF, the Army still had an Air Corps (just like armored corps) and it was that organization that served as the basis for what we now know as Army Aviation. So, the Air Force assumed all the Army Air Force-related healdry and insignia, while the Army reverted to the pre-World War II colors (blue and a dark orange gold) and branch or corps insignia (a wing and prop device from the 1930s).

How does that relate to this discussion? The World War II organization of the Civil Air Patrol was formally assigned sometime in 1943 as the Army Air Force Auxiliary by President Roosevelt's executive order. Headquarters for the CAP was presented a Presidential Unit Citation for it's WW II service and some time in the 1980s, it was the Air Force that decided to set things right by presenting CAP-USAF with an American Campaign Medal battle streamer with bronze star for the Anti Submarine Campaign -- the only battle star authorized for that medal. And yes, Army Air Forces crews flew anti-sub missions in the American Theater during the war. If you read up on the history of the Doolittle Raiders, you will find that those B-25 crews were actually flying anti-sub patrols on the West Coast before their more famous mission.

The question should be if the parent organization (CAP-USAF) is authorized those two streamers for the CAP's WW II service, than why not the CAP itself? I believe something has been lost in translation over the years largely because of the years of lack-luster historical record keeping. Years ago, I had served under a rather crusty old CAP chief warrant officer who was a WW II member and wore the PUC on his uniform. When challenged one day, he actually had a copy of the order for the PUC to the CAP. I realize it isn't something than can be worn today, but it would be nice to see it on the CAP Flag.

The only place you would see that streamer would be on the CAP "MAJCOM" Flag at National Headquarters.

RiverAux

Quote from: flyboy1 on April 08, 2012, 03:49:08 AMHeadquarters for the CAP was presented a Presidential Unit Citation for it's WW II service and some time in the 1980s, it was the Air Force that decided to set things right by presenting CAP-USAF with an American Campaign Medal battle streamer with bronze star for the Anti Submarine Campaign -- the only battle star authorized for that medal.
Neither of these statements square with what the official CAP-USAF honors and lineage document linked from RRLE's post earlier in this thread.  CAP-USAF doesn't have a Presidential Unit Citation and while it has a service streamer (not a campaign streamer) for the American Theater, there is no mention of a bronze star. 

Citations please?