Ribbons on Miniature Medals

Started by JC004, January 02, 2015, 01:21:12 AM

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JC004

I am curious why the ribbons are different from the full-size ribbons on some miniature medals.  Are these old designs from cartoon-era ribbons?  Does the military do this on any of its mini medals?  I was wondering if there's history to it, or what...

Some examples:

Unit Citation has a white border (so does SAR):




Earhart is all stripes:



Mitchell has stars (same with Spaatz):



James Shaw

Quote from: JC004 on January 02, 2015, 01:21:12 AM
I am curious why the ribbons are different from the full-size ribbons on some miniature medals.  Are these old designs from cartoon-era ribbons?  Does the military do this on any of its mini medals?  I was wondering if there's history to it, or what...

Some examples:

Unit Citation has a white border (so does SAR):




Earhart is all stripes:



Mitchell has stars (same with Spaatz):



A matter of economics. These are original design and when the ribbons changed they didn't see a need to change the minis.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - SER-SO
USCGA:2019 - BC-TDI/National Safety Team
SGAUS: 2017 - MEMS Academy State Director (Iowa)

PHall

And no, the military does not do that. The ribbons on the mini and full size medals match the ribbons.

JC004

Interesting.  The stars made me think of the cartoon ribbon era.  Did the former unit citation and SAR ribbons have white ends?

SarDragon

Quote from: JC004 on January 02, 2015, 03:38:03 AM
Interesting.  The stars made me think of the cartoon ribbon era.  Did the former unit citation and SAR ribbons have white ends?

The Unit Citation does not, nor does the Air Search and Rescue ribbon. That's straight from CAPM 39-1, 15 Aug 1960, which predates the cartoon ribbons by three years.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

MSG Mac

Quote from: JC004 on January 02, 2015, 03:38:03 AM
Interesting.  The stars made me think of the cartoon ribbon era.  Did the former unit citation and SAR ribbons have white ends?

The stars and the capital M on the ribbon was to give no doubt that the award was the General "Billy" Mitchell Award.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

flyboy53

#6
Just the same, for all the money spent though Big V, it would be nice if the company would develop a miniature ribbon drape that coordinates with the ribbon or vice a versa.

More often than not, I see CAP ribbons worn by the National Guard, State Guard, ROTC or what have you. It seems to indicate that there is one big sample of various ribbon designs and the powers that be elect to chose one to represent an award, whether the two parts of the award elements match or not. I'm pretty sure those organizations do the same in relation to us -- like for example, the red, white and blue CAP ribbon for wartime service is actually the NYS Conspicuous Service Cross that was created by state law about a century ago.

Seems to me that this is another historical issue that needs to be addressed by NHQ; economics or not and whether they listen or not. Just another example why the whole awards and decorations program needs to be reviewed.

PHall

Quote from: flyboy53 on January 02, 2015, 04:18:47 PM
Just the same, for all the money spent though Big V, it would be nice if the company would develop a miniature ribbon drape that coordinates with the ribbon or vice a versa.

More often than not, I see CAP ribbons worn by the National Guard, State Guard, ROTC or what have you. It seems to indicate that there is one big sample of various ribbon designs and the powers that be elect to chose one to represent an award, whether the two parts of the award elements match or not. I'm pretty sure those organizations do the same in relation to us -- like for example, the red, white and blue CAP ribbon for wartime service is actually the NYS Conspicuous Service Cross that was created by state law about a century ago.

Seems to me that this is another historical issue that needs to be addressed by NHQ; economics or not and whether they listen or not. Just another example why the whole awards and decorations program needs to be reviewed.

Oh, you mean give that 12 person Historian section a real job maybe?

MisterCD

Not sure if you trolling or just uninformed, but the staff is and has been working on a variety of matters. Sorry if we do not spend every waking moment on insignia issues, but there are matters that take a bit more priority, the CGM being one that absorbed a huge amount of time and resources.

There is a body that can address insignia matter: the National Uniform Committee. Bring the concern/issue before Col Griffith and he will bring it up in the monthly meetings.

JC004

State Guard Association, Faithful Service Ribbon (CAP Medal of Valor):



http://www.sgaus.org/store/store.asp?cat=1#1

PHall

Quote from: MisterCD on January 02, 2015, 08:56:43 PM
Not sure if you trolling or just uninformed, but the staff is and has been working on a variety of matters. Sorry if we do not spend every waking moment on insignia issues, but there are matters that take a bit more priority, the CGM being one that absorbed a huge amount of time and resources.

There is a body that can address insignia matter: the National Uniform Committee. Bring the concern/issue before Col Griffith and he will bring it up in the monthly meetings.


Nope, not trolling and sorry if I'm not on your special, "members only" list, but the CGM is done and I suggested you guys only because everytime the NUC does do something with insignia/meadals/ribbons you guys complain you weren't "consulted".

MisterCD

Quote from: PHall on January 02, 2015, 09:43:32 PM
Quote from: MisterCD on January 02, 2015, 08:56:43 PM
Not sure if you trolling or just uninformed, but the staff is and has been working on a variety of matters. Sorry if we do not spend every waking moment on insignia issues, but there are matters that take a bit more priority, the CGM being one that absorbed a huge amount of time and resources.

There is a body that can address insignia matter: the National Uniform Committee. Bring the concern/issue before Col Griffith and he will bring it up in the monthly meetings.


Nope, not trolling and sorry if I'm not on your special, "members only" list, but the CGM is done and I suggested you guys only because everytime the NUC does do something with insignia/meadals/ribbons you guys complain you weren't "consulted".

You flatter me by assuming there is a "members only list," as I have often been told by members who have been CAP historians for years that I am the first national historian to ever contact them or even provide quarterly updates on the program. Yes, the CGM may be done as far as you are concerned, but I am still answering emails from vets, wing and squadron commanders, not to mention assisting NHQ with various matters regarding the state medal presentations. My work is far from over with it. As it stands, I'm also involved in the 75th anniversary work, several research projects, museum displays - including getting a CAP display back into the National Museum of the USAF and possibly several other national aviation museums - not to mention the living history program being developed by my staff, and getting regs updated and revised as well as new ones published. The largest project by far has been organizing, cataloging, and digitizing all the records and artifacts saved over the previous decades. The artifacts were not well cataloged much less organized, and neither the records. The website history.cap.gov is up to act as a digital library/archive for what is in storage, and I recommend you visit it if you haven't.

I personally am not that interested in insignia, decorations, ribbons, etc., at least not at the level of the folks on this forum or in CAP. I do not buy the argument that the historians were not consulted and complain. My predecessors were all on the NUC and were informed of what was happening, as have I from the moment I took the position. If they did not voice why decisions were made or insignia designed the way it was then perhaps the other historians or CAP members need to ask them they changes or designs took place.

Regarding insignia in use now, I have voiced concerns for people as they were brought to me and do not have a problem voicing concerns about things now. Presently two of my staff are working to set the standards on the exact colors for all the ribbons, as there is no...nor ever has been...a standard for the CAP ribbon colors. The manufacturers, not CAP, chose particular colors and stuck with them, and no one thought to put in place specifications akin to the military. A "CAPSpec," if you will, is being developed, but by the NUC requesting it and historians assisting.

As it stands, there is no standard that I am aware of for the vast majority of CAP insignia, certainly nothing as direct as what is used by the military.

And that two of CAP's ribbons should share designs from New York's State Guard, I would personally ask one of my predecessors, a member of this unit, if he took his inspiration for CAP designs from the guard's awards and decorations.


PHall

Quote from: MisterCD on January 02, 2015, 11:07:23 PM
And that two of CAP's ribbons should share designs from New York's State Guard, I would personally ask one of my predecessors, a member of this unit, if he took his inspiration for CAP designs from the guard's awards and decorations.


Go take a look at the ribbon section over at http://www.glendale.com  you'll more then a few near misses to CAP ribbons.

MSG Mac

#13
In the realm of ribbon color and design, many of the Federal and State ribbons are duplicated by other Organizations. Obsolete federal awards are renamed and reused by not only CAP, but (j)ROTC, National Guards, State Defense Forces, Bands, etc. No big deal as long as we know the. Individual never served in the Civil War or with Admiral Byrd's Antarctic Expedition. But I do agree that CAP should redesign the mini medals to correspond with the ribbon. This is not a priority, especially since  CAP is responsible for buying all the old stock from VG, before the new stock is put on sale.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

The CyBorg is destroyed

Movies/TV sometimes use CAP ribbons for characters portraying military personnel.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

flyboy53

#15
Quote from: MisterCD on January 02, 2015, 11:07:23 PM
Quote from: PHall on January 02, 2015, 09:43:32 PM
Quote from: MisterCD on January 02, 2015, 08:56:43 PM
Not sure if you trolling or just uninformed, but the staff is and has been working on a variety of matters. Sorry if we do not spend every waking moment on insignia issues, but there are matters that take a bit more priority, the CGM being one that absorbed a huge amount of time and resources.

There is a body that can address insignia matter: the National Uniform Committee. Bring the concern/issue before Col Griffith and he will bring it up in the monthly meetings.

Nope, not trolling and sorry if I'm not on your special, "members only" list, but the CGM is done and I suggested you guys only because everytime the NUC does do something with insignia/meadals/ribbons you guys complain you weren't "consulted".

You flatter me by assuming there is a "members only list," as I have often been told by members who have been CAP historians for years that I am the first national historian to ever contact them or even provide quarterly updates on the program. Yes, the CGM may be done as far as you are concerned, but I am still answering emails from vets, wing and squadron commanders, not to mention assisting NHQ with various matters regarding the state medal presentations. My work is far from over with it. As it stands, I'm also involved in the 75th anniversary work, several research projects, museum displays - including getting a CAP display back into the National Museum of the USAF and possibly several other national aviation museums - not to mention the living history program being developed by my staff, and getting regs updated and revised as well as new ones published. The largest project by far has been organizing, cataloging, and digitizing all the records and artifacts saved over the previous decades. The artifacts were not well cataloged much less organized, and neither the records. The website history.cap.gov is up to act as a digital library/archive for what is in storage, and I recommend you visit it if you haven't.

I personally am not that interested in insignia, decorations, ribbons, etc., at least not at the level of the folks on this forum or in CAP. I do not buy the argument that the historians were not consulted and complain. My predecessors were all on the NUC and were informed of what was happening, as have I from the moment I took the position. If they did not voice why decisions were made or insignia designed the way it was then perhaps the other historians or CAP members need to ask them they changes or designs took place.

Regarding insignia in use now, I have voiced concerns for people as they were brought to me and do not have a problem voicing concerns about things now. Presently two of my staff are working to set the standards on the exact colors for all the ribbons, as there is no...nor ever has been...a standard for the CAP ribbon colors. The manufacturers, not CAP, chose particular colors and stuck with them, and no one thought to put in place specifications akin to the military. A "CAPSpec," if you will, is being developed, but by the NUC requesting it and historians assisting.

As it stands, there is no standard that I am aware of for the vast majority of CAP insignia, certainly nothing as direct as what is used by the military.

And that two of CAP's ribbons should share designs from New York's State Guard, I would personally ask one of my predecessors, a member of this unit, if he took his inspiration for CAP designs from the guard's awards and decorations.

Not to belabor this issue, but PHall is right and given that we are both coming at this issue from the perspective of our Air Force experience, may I enlighten you.

The involvement of the Historian's Office in the development/correction/standard of CAP Awards is vitally important to ensure correct heraldry of the design if the award is to be properly done and be meaningful.

Every military medal, ribbon or decoration has a heraldry  description that not only ensures consistency in colors but also a meaning of the award's design. That gives the award a greater meaning, especially if this information is provided at the time of presentation.

I've always enjoyed reading the heraldry behind medals like the Purple Heart and the Army Good Conduct Medal. It's interesting that both awards have evolved from decorations first established by George Washington. Given the design of the medals is one thing, but the colors used in the ribbons also have meaning.

Most of us who are former Air Force Security Forces members can quote the heraldry significance of our berets and what used to be the qualification badge. At the same time, many aircraft maintenance types take great pride that the falcon that is central to the design of the aircraft maintenance badge comes from one at the National Cathedral and that the overall design has a heraldry that reflects to their duties. Such information, though possibly trivial, gives meaning and purpose.

Up until some point in the late 1950s or early 1960s, all CAP ribbons and awards were designed with the assistance and approval of the Army Heraldry people. The CAP's awards, ribbons and medals should still have to be accomplished with that same degree of standard. Given that the headquarters is there at Maxwell -- at the center of the Air Force's historical function, there really is no excuse that the proper design process is not used when creating a CAP award.

Proper vetting of an award design in terms of heraldry would not have allowed instances where the ribbon design is different from the ribbon drape.Therefore, your role should not be minimalized whether you are interested in it or not. Also, it becomes just as important to our history as the design of any unit patch or badge that we wear.

James Shaw

Quote from: flyboy53 on January 06, 2015, 12:54:13 PM
Quote from: MisterCD on January 02, 2015, 11:07:23 PM
Quote from: PHall on January 02, 2015, 09:43:32 PM
Quote from: MisterCD on January 02, 2015, 08:56:43 PM
Not sure if you trolling or just uninformed, but the staff is and has been working on a variety of matters. Sorry if we do not spend every waking moment on insignia issues, but there are matters that take a bit more priority, the CGM being one that absorbed a huge amount of time and resources.

There is a body that can address insignia matter: the National Uniform Committee. Bring the concern/issue before Col Griffith and he will bring it up in the monthly meetings.

Nope, not trolling and sorry if I'm not on your special, "members only" list, but the CGM is done and I suggested you guys only because everytime the NUC does do something with insignia/meadals/ribbons you guys complain you weren't "consulted".

You flatter me by assuming there is a "members only list," as I have often been told by members who have been CAP historians for years that I am the first national historian to ever contact them or even provide quarterly updates on the program. Yes, the CGM may be done as far as you are concerned, but I am still answering emails from vets, wing and squadron commanders, not to mention assisting NHQ with various matters regarding the state medal presentations. My work is far from over with it. As it stands, I'm also involved in the 75th anniversary work, several research projects, museum displays - including getting a CAP display back into the National Museum of the USAF and possibly several other national aviation museums - not to mention the living history program being developed by my staff, and getting regs updated and revised as well as new ones published. The largest project by far has been organizing, cataloging, and digitizing all the records and artifacts saved over the previous decades. The artifacts were not well cataloged much less organized, and neither the records. The website history.cap.gov is up to act as a digital library/archive for what is in storage, and I recommend you visit it if you haven't.

I personally am not that interested in insignia, decorations, ribbons, etc., at least not at the level of the folks on this forum or in CAP. I do not buy the argument that the historians were not consulted and complain. My predecessors were all on the NUC and were informed of what was happening, as have I from the moment I took the position. If they did not voice why decisions were made or insignia designed the way it was then perhaps the other historians or CAP members need to ask them they changes or designs took place.

Regarding insignia in use now, I have voiced concerns for people as they were brought to me and do not have a problem voicing concerns about things now. Presently two of my staff are working to set the standards on the exact colors for all the ribbons, as there is no...nor ever has been...a standard for the CAP ribbon colors. The manufacturers, not CAP, chose particular colors and stuck with them, and no one thought to put in place specifications akin to the military. A "CAPSpec," if you will, is being developed, but by the NUC requesting it and historians assisting.

As it stands, there is no standard that I am aware of for the vast majority of CAP insignia, certainly nothing as direct as what is used by the military.

And that two of CAP's ribbons should share designs from New York's State Guard, I would personally ask one of my predecessors, a member of this unit, if he took his inspiration for CAP designs from the guard's awards and decorations.

Not to belabor this issue, but PHall is right and given that we are both coming at this issue from the perspective of our Air Force experience, may I enlighten you.

The involvement of the Historian's Office in the development/correction/standard of CAP Awards is vitally important to ensure correct heraldry of the design if the award is to be properly done and be meaningful.

Every military medal, ribbon or decoration has a heraldry  description that not only ensures consistency in colors but also a meaning of the award's design. That gives the award a greater meaning, especially if this information is provided at the time of presentation.

I've always enjoyed reading the heraldry behind medals like the Purple Heart and the Army Good Conduct Medal. It's interesting that both awards have evolved from decorations first established by George Washington. Given the design of the medals is one thing, but the colors used in the ribbons also have meaning.

Most of us who are former Air Force Security Forces members can quote the heraldry significance of our berets and what used to be the qualification badge. At the same time, many aircraft maintenance types take great pride that the falcon that is central to the design of the aircraft maintenance badge comes from one at the National Cathedral and that the overall design has a heraldry that reflects to their duties. Such information, though possibly trivial, gives meaning and purpose.

Up until some point in the late 1950s or early 1960s, all CAP ribbons and wards were designed with the assistance and approval of the Army Heraldry people. The CAP's awards, ribbons and medals should still have to be accomplished with that same degree of standard. Given that the headquarters is there at Maxwell -- at the center of the Air Force's historical function, there really is no excuse that the proper design process is not used when creating a CAP award.

Proper vetting of an award design in terms of heraldry would not have allowed instances where the ribbon design is different from the ribbon drape.Therefore, your role should not be minimalized whether you are interested in it or not. Also, it becomes just as important to our history as the design of any unit patch or badge that we wear.

Some of the more recent Awards and Badges do have Heraldic Information...most however do not.

NHQ Staff Badge
Achievement Award
National Honors Ribbon
Drug Demand Reduction Specialty Badge
Ira Eaker Award (Planchet)

I helped design the NHQ Staff Badge and completely designed the others listed.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - SER-SO
USCGA:2019 - BC-TDI/National Safety Team
SGAUS: 2017 - MEMS Academy State Director (Iowa)

Alaric

Quote from: MisterCD on January 02, 2015, 11:07:23 PM
Quote from: PHall on January 02, 2015, 09:43:32 PM
Quote from: MisterCD on January 02, 2015, 08:56:43 PM
Not sure if you trolling or just uninformed, but the staff is and has been working on a variety of matters. Sorry if we do not spend every waking moment on insignia issues, but there are matters that take a bit more priority, the CGM being one that absorbed a huge amount of time and resources.

There is a body that can address insignia matter: the National Uniform Committee. Bring the concern/issue before Col Griffith and he will bring it up in the monthly meetings.


Nope, not trolling and sorry if I'm not on your special, "members only" list, but the CGM is done and I suggested you guys only because everytime the NUC does do something with insignia/meadals/ribbons you guys complain you weren't "consulted".

You flatter me by assuming there is a "members only list," as I have often been told by members who have been CAP historians for years that I am the first national historian to ever contact them or even provide quarterly updates on the program. Yes, the CGM may be done as far as you are concerned, but I am still answering emails from vets, wing and squadron commanders, not to mention assisting NHQ with various matters regarding the state medal presentations. My work is far from over with it. As it stands, I'm also involved in the 75th anniversary work, several research projects, museum displays - including getting a CAP display back into the National Museum of the USAF and possibly several other national aviation museums - not to mention the living history program being developed by my staff, and getting regs updated and revised as well as new ones published. The largest project by far has been organizing, cataloging, and digitizing all the records and artifacts saved over the previous decades. The artifacts were not well cataloged much less organized, and neither the records. The website history.cap.gov is up to act as a digital library/archive for what is in storage, and I recommend you visit it if you haven't.


Whereas I understand that by its very nature the Historical department will always be backwards looking (i.e. History, the study of past events).  It does concern me that as an organization we seem to be spending a great deal of time and resources on the past (CGM, 75th Anniversary) and very little on making sure we are a viable organization for the present and future.  I'm thrilled we were able to get a CGM in acknowledgement of those who served, but to me any money or time spent on the 75th Anniversary that could have been spent on operations is a waste.  We've been around 75 years, great.  I want to be part of an organization that will still be around when my children and grandchildren come of age (if I ever have any).  This constant patting ourselves on the back and celebration for what was done before most members were born is detrimental to the organization as a whole

MisterCD

#18
Quote from: flyboy53 on January 06, 2015, 12:54:13 PM
Quote from: MisterCD on January 02, 2015, 11:07:23 PM
Quote from: PHall on January 02, 2015, 09:43:32 PM
Quote from: MisterCD on January 02, 2015, 08:56:43 PM
Not sure if you trolling or just uninformed, but the staff is and has been working on a variety of matters. Sorry if we do not spend every waking moment on insignia issues, but there are matters that take a bit more priority, the CGM being one that absorbed a huge amount of time and resources.

There is a body that can address insignia matter: the National Uniform Committee. Bring the concern/issue before Col Griffith and he will bring it up in the monthly meetings.

Nope, not trolling and sorry if I'm not on your special, "members only" list, but the CGM is done and I suggested you guys only because everytime the NUC does do something with insignia/meadals/ribbons you guys complain you weren't "consulted".

You flatter me by assuming there is a "members only list," as I have often been told by members who have been CAP historians for years that I am the first national historian to ever contact them or even provide quarterly updates on the program. Yes, the CGM may be done as far as you are concerned, but I am still answering emails from vets, wing and squadron commanders, not to mention assisting NHQ with various matters regarding the state medal presentations. My work is far from over with it. As it stands, I'm also involved in the 75th anniversary work, several research projects, museum displays - including getting a CAP display back into the National Museum of the USAF and possibly several other national aviation museums - not to mention the living history program being developed by my staff, and getting regs updated and revised as well as new ones published. The largest project by far has been organizing, cataloging, and digitizing all the records and artifacts saved over the previous decades. The artifacts were not well cataloged much less organized, and neither the records. The website history.cap.gov is up to act as a digital library/archive for what is in storage, and I recommend you visit it if you haven't.

I personally am not that interested in insignia, decorations, ribbons, etc., at least not at the level of the folks on this forum or in CAP. I do not buy the argument that the historians were not consulted and complain. My predecessors were all on the NUC and were informed of what was happening, as have I from the moment I took the position. If they did not voice why decisions were made or insignia designed the way it was then perhaps the other historians or CAP members need to ask them they changes or designs took place.

Regarding insignia in use now, I have voiced concerns for people as they were brought to me and do not have a problem voicing concerns about things now. Presently two of my staff are working to set the standards on the exact colors for all the ribbons, as there is no...nor ever has been...a standard for the CAP ribbon colors. The manufacturers, not CAP, chose particular colors and stuck with them, and no one thought to put in place specifications akin to the military. A "CAPSpec," if you will, is being developed, but by the NUC requesting it and historians assisting.

As it stands, there is no standard that I am aware of for the vast majority of CAP insignia, certainly nothing as direct as what is used by the military.

And that two of CAP's ribbons should share designs from New York's State Guard, I would personally ask one of my predecessors, a member of this unit, if he took his inspiration for CAP designs from the guard's awards and decorations.

Not to belabor this issue, but PHall is right and given that we are both coming at this issue from the perspective of our Air Force experience, may I enlighten you.

The involvement of the Historian's Office in the development/correction/standard of CAP Awards is vitally important to ensure correct heraldry of the design if the award is to be properly done and be meaningful.

Every military medal, ribbon or decoration has a heraldry  description that not only ensures consistency in colors but also a meaning of the award's design. That gives the award a greater meaning, especially if this information is provided at the time of presentation.

I've always enjoyed reading the heraldry behind medals like the Purple Heart and the Army Good Conduct Medal. It's interesting that both awards have evolved from decorations first established by George Washington. Given the design of the medals is one thing, but the colors used in the ribbons also have meaning.

Most of us who are former Air Force Security Forces members can quote the heraldry significance of our berets and what used to be the qualification badge. At the same time, many aircraft maintenance types take great pride that the falcon that is central to the design of the aircraft maintenance badge comes from one at the National Cathedral and that the overall design has a heraldry that reflects to their duties. Such information, though possibly trivial, gives meaning and purpose.

Up until some point in the late 1950s or early 1960s, all CAP ribbons and wards were designed with the assistance and approval of the Army Heraldry people. The CAP's awards, ribbons and medals should still have to be accomplished with that same degree of standard. Given that the headquarters is there at Maxwell -- at the center of the Air Force's historical function, there really is no excuse that the proper design process is not used when creating a CAP award.

Proper vetting of an award design in terms of heraldry would not have allowed instances where the ribbon design is different from the ribbon drape.Therefore, your role should not be minimalized whether you are interested in it or not. Also, it becomes just as important to our history as the design of any unit patch or badge that we wear.

I will ask the point of why this matter of ribbons on medals not matching the ribbon bars was left ignored for so long, well before I came on board. Presumably someone has brought this up before, yes?

And as for minimalizing aspects of heraldry, I would not have requested a heraldry regulation and guidance pamphlet if I felt the matter completely unimportant. I do believe there needs to be more emphasis on other matters aside from wanting to design new insignia constantly and just collecting insignia. If we do not know what it means or even have design specifications for what is currently in use, designing more insignia seems to be ignoring a greater problem. Bottom line remains that issues are but one problem warranting attention, but not the problem to address entirely. There is an individual on the staff appointed specifically to oversee heraldry issues and this matter is but one he has to work on. Establishing the hard and fast colors used on the present ribbons and getting the designs standardized is his second priority, the first to get CAPP 7 and CAPR 210-2 published.

As for the 75th, one of the problems I hear expressed often is that our brand and identity are not known. Did any of you all for a second realize that the CGM and the 75th represent marketing opportunities and a way to bring CAP greater recognition, not so much for past accomplishments but that we exist in general? Put large museum displays together at the NMUSAF or NASM and you have millions of people learning at least something about CAP, and if even a small fraction goes so far as to joining, a small one-time investment can yield far more than several million putting a logo on a race car. Lastly, ask books we have or even solid monographs talking about CAP's work from 1950 to the present, as you will not find one. Writing a history to cover the organization's entire history is not easily accomplished, but invaluable to moving forwards. Helps to know of past successes and failures if trying to chart a new course for the next 75 years, or at least have some insight into the culture and character of the group.

Call it detrimental if you like, but the effort opened doors for CAP, both financially and with influential groups that can provide access to resources previously unavailable to CAP.

Alaric

Quote from: MisterCD on January 06, 2015, 02:10:03 PM

As for the 75th, one of the problems I hear expressed often is that our brand and identity are not known. Did any of you all for a second realize that the CGM and the 75th represent marketing opportunities and a way to bring CAP greater recognition, not so much for past accomplishments but that we exist in general? Put large museum displays together at the NMUSAF or NASM and you have millions of people learning at least something about CAP, and if even a small fraction goes so far as to joining, a small one-time investment can yield far more than several million putting a logo on a race car. Lastly, ask books we have or even solid monographs talking about CAP's work from 1950 to the present, as you will not find one. Writing a history to cover the organization's entire history is not easily accomplished, but invaluable to moving forwards. Helps to know of past successes and failures if trying to chart a new course for the next 75 years, or at least have some insight into the culture and character of the group.

Call it detrimental if you like, but the effort opened doors for CAP, both financially and with influential groups that can provide access to resources previously unavailable to CAP.

When I was in college, the decision was made to go Division I, the idea being that this would bring in more Alumni support and financing.  It didn't work.  So whereas I recognize that CAP believes that expending effort on the 75th anniversary will bring CAP greater recognition, but wishing doesn't make it so. 

My point still is that in my opinion, we spend far too much time talking about what we did in WWII and when SAR was in its heyday.  Great, move on.  Right now, we are not being seen as credible by many of the State and Local response agencies we need to work with if we are going to stay viable.  For myself, I don't care what did in the 50s, or the 70s or the 90s because it has no impact on our capabilities now.  I have never seen a book on the Disaster Services of the Red Cross, but it seems they can still change as needed to be relevant as the world changes, the same is true of the Coast Guard Auxiliary, the Community Emergency Response Team movement, and the Boy Scouts of America.  I have seen books on their founding, but not a retrospective on what they have done for the last several decades.  Perhaps its because they wish to concentrate on actual adaptation to current operational needs, perhaps its because they don't have historians, I don't know.  I know that I am tired of hearing what we have done, I'm far more interested in what we will be doing.