Ribbons on Miniature Medals

Started by JC004, January 02, 2015, 01:21:12 AM

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Alaric

Quote from: JC004 on January 07, 2015, 03:26:30 PM
I have noticed the color changes in ribbons (several times for the same ribbon).  Why can't they just make the updated ribbon when they run out of rolls of ribbon?  Leave the medals themselves be, I guess...

I have never noticed a real color difference, but I don't get my ribbons from Vanguard, I get them from ultrathin.  The color has been consistent between the various sets I've had

JeffDG

Quote from: Ned on January 06, 2015, 10:22:25 PM
Heck, I'm a taxpayer, too.  No agency, group, or program should receive tax dollars as some sort of "thank you for past services."  Thank Goodness that is not the case with us.

Agree, with the exception of appropriately earned pension programs, which are "thank you for you past services", and are entirely appropriate.

LSThiker

Quote from: JC004 on January 07, 2015, 03:26:30 PM
I have noticed the color changes in ribbons (several times for the same ribbon).  Why can't they just make the updated ribbon when they run out of rolls of ribbon?

According to the Historian, the directorate is looking at creating the specifications for the colors and measurements for ribbons and insignia.  That should help, in theory, with the inconsistency of the production. 

Shuman 14

Would it not be cheaper, in the long run, to change the ribbons to match the medals?

$0.99 vs $5.00 per item when purchased in bulk... using country math.  :-\
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

lordmonar

Quote from: shuman14 on January 07, 2015, 05:06:12 PM
Would it not be cheaper, in the long run, to change the ribbons to match the medals?

$0.99 vs $5.00 per item when purchased in bulk... using country math.  :-\
Depends on stock on hand.

$.99 x 10,000 vice $5 X 100.....
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Shuman 14

True, I hadn't thought of that.

Question to pose to Vanguard would be how much stock of each (ribbon and medal) do you have on hand.
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

flyboy53

Listen, Big V is a insignia supplier for the military and numerous other organizations.

If a CAP ribbon matches one used by another organization, why does CAP have to buy the existing stock? I would think that's sticking it twice the CAP because Big V would obviously keep the stock on  hand for other uses.

Why not start simply and change the ribbon when the supply runs out -- and I agree it would be cheaper to change the ribbon to match the miniature medal ribbon drape than to do it the other way around.

JC004

Quote from: flyboy53 on January 07, 2015, 09:20:57 PM
Listen, Big V is a insignia supplier for the military and numerous other organizations.

If a CAP ribbon matches one used by another organization, why does CAP have to buy the existing stock?
...

If you were a business in their situation, would you require that?  They used to be in a pretty sticky situation because any time a bunch of birds got together, there was a new uniform item, usually making something else obsolete.  We went through THREE flight suit patches in a jiffy.  We quickly went from "Civil Air Patrol" branch tapes to "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" branch tapes, and back again.  The CSU had to be a HUGE expense, and was short-lived.  It must have cost good money to make all those coats that pretty quickly went away. 

PHall

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on January 07, 2015, 12:41:49 PM
So you are telling me that if CAP decides to discontinue all ribbons and use challenge coins instead, it must buy all ribbon stock in Vanguard?

Incredible.

No, good lawyering on the contract! >:D

Private Investigator

Quote from: JC004 on January 07, 2015, 10:51:40 PM
Quote from: flyboy53 on January 07, 2015, 09:20:57 PM
Listen, Big V is a insignia supplier for the military and numerous other organizations.

If a CAP ribbon matches one used by another organization, why does CAP have to buy the existing stock?
...

If you were a business in their situation, would you require that?  They used to be in a pretty sticky situation because any time a bunch of birds got together, there was a new uniform item, usually making something else obsolete.  We went through THREE flight suit patches in a jiffy.  We quickly went from "Civil Air Patrol" branch tapes to "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" branch tapes, and back again.  The CSU had to be a HUGE expense, and was short-lived.  It must have cost good money to make all those coats that pretty quickly went away.

Very good points because we had silliness at the National level and we have it at the Squadron level. Everytime a new Unit Commander comes abaord they want to create a new patch for their legacy. JMHO, YMMV   8)

Eclipse

Quote from: JC004 on January 07, 2015, 10:51:40 PM
If you were a business in their situation, would you require that?  They used to be in a pretty sticky situation because any time a bunch of birds got together, there was a new uniform item, usually making something else obsolete.  We went through THREE flight suit patches in a jiffy.  We quickly went from "Civil Air Patrol" branch tapes to "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" branch tapes, and back again.  The CSU had to be a HUGE expense, and was short-lived.  It must have cost good money to make all those coats that pretty quickly went away.

All part of the risk of doing this business - it's not the Big 7 don't make major changes on a regular basis.

>If< that's really the contract, so be it, however is that at cost or at retail?

And we've already indicated a way to very easily manage the situation to everyone's ultimate benefit and no extra cost.

People complain all the time that uniforms are too much of a distraction to the organization this issue is one of the major
reasons why.  Ribbon color for a uniform less then 1/2 the membership can wear?   Of course not, it's the fact that
there is essentially >zero< training provided to new members in regards to proper uniform wear, and the publications
designed to alleviate that issue are a mess.

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

#51
Quote from: Eclipse on January 08, 2015, 03:05:14 PM
and the publications designed to alleviate that issue are a mess.
I have got to say that the new 39-1 is by far one of the best written manuals in a long long long time.   While there are lots of "problems" with is.....by and large those problems are for us types who will split hairs on a nit and not the general membership.

I will agree that the main problem is training, education and unfortunately, enforcement. 
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: Ned on January 06, 2015, 10:22:25 PM
One way to avoid being taken as a "hard-bitten cynic" is to stop posting cynical messages in a public forum.

Actually, sir, I am very cynical by nature.  I try to avoid it in public fora but it is just part of who I am.  Conversely, my wife was the "eternal optimist"...up until she was diagnosed with cancer.  We temper each other.  She helps me to see that some clouds do have a silver lining and I provide life experience that sometimes things do not work out for the best.

Yes, I do bemoan that we have lost a lot of our connection to the Air Force.  It was even still there when I first joined 22 years ago.  I have had squadron and wing commanders tell me how in their day, usually as cadets, most CAP units were based on AF/AFRES/ANG installations, we were welcomed with open arms for the most part...and one of them actually got rides in a T-33.  I grieve for those "days of future past."  The most horrible thing that has happened to us during my years of service is the "AUX ON/AUX OFF" bit.

But, with the topic of medals, I do wish we had full size ones, for shadow boxes and what a former CC called "I Love Me" walls (which, admittedly, I do not have - my certificates are all in a fireproof locked cabinet).

I would also dearly like to be able to wear all miniatures on the blazer kit.  I do not see why that is a problem.

I also prefer "court mounting" for medals...it looks much more "evened out."

[lmgtfy]https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=court+mounting+medals[/lmgtfy]
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Eclipse

Quote from: Ned on January 06, 2015, 10:22:25 PM
I've had a chance to chat with the AF Vice Chief of Staff, as well as the AFNORTH commander about CAP.  And you are absolutely correct that they are aware of us, and that they believe that we have not only justified our continued existence to the satisfaction of the AF, but that we add substantial, measurable value to the AF mission.

You may well be correct that SRA Jones and GS-5 Guy On the Gate may not fully appreciate both the current value and past heritage of this organization, and both we and our AF colleagues can do a better job of getting the word out.

Yes, you did, however the average member spends a lot more time with rank and file service members and DoD employees who
are generally clueless about CAP.  If I had an audience with the CV, and that translated into something tangible for my AOR,
then of course I'd feel good about the state of CAP.

What translates to "appreciated" at the rank and file level are missions, resources, and yes, perhaps a word to the NCOs
that paying a CAP member the same respect you'd pay the mailman doesn't diminish your standing.  Personally, I'd guess most
members are only concerned about the first two, but the average member doesn't generally much of any of it.

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Eclipse.

Even AF guys are not appreciated by other AF guys at the rank and file level.

I was a Comm Maintainer.....quite literally if I did not do my job.....nothing else would happen that required a phone.

But the guy at the gate did not appreciate me....and I did not appreciate him.

Wanting every airman to know how hard YOU work at doing your CAP job and being properly appreciative is just a lost cause.

All I want it is to be added to the offical book of knowledge so that they don't go "Civil Air Who?"

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

ColonelJack

Quote

But, with the topic of medals, I do wish we had full size ones, for shadow boxes and what a former CC called "I Love Me" walls (which, admittedly, I do not have - my certificates are all in a fireproof locked cabinet).


I'm with ya, buddy!  I think full-size gongs are a GREAT idea - and there a lot of members who'd buy them.

Quote

I would also dearly like to be able to wear all miniatures on the blazer kit.  I do not see why that is a problem.


I'm with ya, buddy!  Since I'm in blazer kit these days myself, I think it's a great idea.

Quote

I also prefer "court mounting" for medals...it looks much more "evened out."


Ah, you lost me there.  Court mounting looks good, but - sad to say - it's just not the way we do things on this side of the pond.

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

LSThiker

Quote from: lordmonar on January 08, 2015, 10:21:10 PM
Eclipse.

Even AF guys are not appreciated by other AF guys at the rank and file level.

Same with medical.  It was always, "oh....you are medical.  That explains it."  Then when something happens and they need medical, then it becomes "you are medical!!!!!!!!".

Heck, it is the same with all the military and even between branches.  And between SNCOs and Junior Officers. 

Eclipse

#57
Quote from: lordmonar on January 08, 2015, 10:21:10 PM
Eclipse.

Even AF guys are not appreciated by other AF guys at the rank and file level.

I was a Comm Maintainer.....quite literally if I did not do my job.....nothing else would happen that required a phone.

But the guy at the gate did not appreciate me....and I did not appreciate him.

Wanting every airman to know how hard YOU work at doing your CAP job and being properly appreciative is just a lost cause.

All I want it is to be added to the offical book of knowledge so that they don't go "Civil Air Who?"

I don't really think anyone is asking for much more, though the difference between your example
is that you were getting salary, benefits, housing, clothing, whereas CAP members are paying for
the privilege of receiving disdain, or at least the lack of common respect, from the very people they are there to "support".

But I don't even care about that nonsense, because most of it is apocryphal or self-induced.
The proof of appreciation is in who the USAF calls when they need help, and in most cases, they don't appear to
even have CAP's number.

We hear a lot of rhetoric about 1AF situation screens that are swamped with CAP aircraft (mostly
training and admin missions), and how the air staff and others are "fully aware and briefed on CAP",
and yet many (most?) missions with the exception of ELTs, are handled with the equivalent of a fire
department "hearing about a fire down the street and calling around to see if anyone needs help, then when
the FD finds out that there is no money to help, offers to come down anyway and the firemen pass the hat among themselves for gas money to fuel the pumper...).

1AF as supposed to bring us standing with the uniformed services and ES community, but I haven't seen it.
Have there been any DR or similar missions that were initiated by 1AF?   I've been involved with a number of
them, but while they may have been >approved< by 1AF as B's for member protection, there's never
any money and the customer, corporation, or even the members wind up funding the operations,
which to them is the same as it's always been with the difference being theoretical FECA in the unlikely
event they are injured.

Are there USAF Major Commands with as large a pool of resources as CAP that have zero strategic
expectations, plans, or requirements?

If nothing else 1AF, or the USAF in general, should be pressing with the 3 and 4 letter agencies
at the federal level to have us on the "first called" lists, but that is imply not happening.


"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Quote from: Eclipse on January 08, 2015, 10:48:59 PM
The proof of appreciation is in who the USAF calls when they need help, and in most cases, they don't appear to
even have CAP's number.
Except for Falcon Virgo, Green Flag, AFRCC, et at.   
The real test of the USAF's appreciation comes in the form of funding.   

QuoteWe hear a lot of rhetoric about 1AF situation screens that are swamped with CAP aircraft (mostly
training and admin missions), and how the air staff and others are "fully aware and briefed on CAP",
and yet many (most?) missions with the exception of ELTs, are handled with the equivalent of a fire
department "hearing about a fire down the street and calling around to see if anyone needs help, then when
the FD finds out that there is no money to help, offers to come down anyway and the firemen pass the hat among themselves for gas money to fuel the pumper...).
That's not the USAF's fault...if the local ES guys don't know how to get a hold of us.....that's our problem.

Quote1AF as supposed to bring us standing with the uniformed services and ES community, but I haven't seen it.
Have there been any DR or similar missions that were initiated by 1AF?   I've been involved with a number of
them, but while they may have been >approved< by 1AF as B's for member protection, there's never
any money and the customer, corporation, or even the members wind up funding the operations,
which to them is the same as it's always been with the difference being theoretical FECA in the unlikely
event they are injured.
Bringing standing.....and doing the let work are different things.   When a state calls 1st AF for support....not even talking CAP support....the first question from the USAF is "who's going to pay for it".

QuoteAre there USAF Major Commands with as large a pool of resources as CAP that have zero strategic
expectations, plans, or requirements?

If nothing else 1AF, or the USAF in general, should be pressing with the 3 and 4 letter agencies
at the federal level to have us on the "first called" lists, but that is imply not happening.
Or so you see at YOUR level.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

#59
Quote from: lordmonar on January 08, 2015, 11:05:33 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 08, 2015, 10:48:59 PM
The proof of appreciation is in who the USAF calls when they need help, and in most cases, they don't appear to
even have CAP's number.
Except for Falcon Virgo, Green Flag, AFRCC, et at.   
The real test of the USAF's appreciation comes in the form of funding.   

I said we get ELTs, you're little party doesn't count, it's not a typical CAP mission, and
is a non-starter for the vast majority of CAP members.  You and I both also know that the
make up of the units involved isn't exactly "typical", either.

Quote from: lordmonar on January 08, 2015, 11:05:33 PM
Bringing standing.....and doing the let work are different things.   When a state calls 1st AF for support....not even talking CAP support....the first question from the USAF is "who's going to pay for it".

Fair enough - FIGURE IT OUT NOW.

I, as an IC or Liaison at the ground level, should not be in the position of having to go and
find money.  Do FEMA people do that?  ARC?  No.  They have money and process in the chamber
for when the waters start rising.  CAP is a federal asset with less response plan then a local CERT team.

National incidents?  Zero plan, even though CAP portends to train in ICS.  Instead it's move our
airplanes out of the way, and then wait a week or so and see what happens.  Then if necessary,
respond with the absolute skeleton crew possible, and work them into the ground while qualified
members sit waiting for the call.  Then realize how much more you could have done with a proper
team, start calling people 2-weeks into the incident, and realize everyone else is going home.

Rinse repeat, and insure you learn zero lessons from the last incident.

CAP recently trumpeted an MOU with the ARC, and all it says is "encourage cooperation".

And that's the problem, no one wants to actually sign their name and commit resources
they can't count on, so no one is willing to commit at all.

"That Others May Zoom"