Old Insignia Poster

Started by BHartman007, June 10, 2014, 01:48:10 PM

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BHartman007

We found this old poster at the squadron building last night while cleaning. Any idea what time frame it's from? A note on the back said it was "taken off the wall March 1981". It was grade patches for private and corporal, and even has stewardess wings.

Wing Assistant Director of Administration
Squadron Deputy Commander for Cadets

MSG Mac

#1
Probably 1964/1965 when they were transistioning from the old to the new Cadet Program.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

Garibaldi

The ribbons pictured were used up until 1982 or so. I used to have a set of plastic ribbons.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

a2capt

I like how the stuff at the bottom is only available through NHQ..

The CyBorg is destroyed

I saw something in an old library book called "Insignia of the U.S. Armed Forces" that dated from sometime in the early '60s.

It had enlisted ranks for CAP ranging from Airman, Airman First Class, Sergeant, Staff Sergeant, Technical Sergeant and Master Sergeant as well as Warrant Officers (four grades).

It also had hat devices for enlisted/NCO seniors more in line with what the USAF was using...basically the same device, but a little smaller and inside a circle.

The CAP cutouts were "C.A.P." instead of just "CAP," for seniors and "C.A.P.C." for cadets.

It wasn't in colour or anything, just basic line drawings.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

BHartman007

This one doesn't even have airman grades. It has private, corporal, and then into the sgt. grades.
And when did we need stewardess wings?? Do they sit next to the scanner and give the crew coffee?

Wing Assistant Director of Administration
Squadron Deputy Commander for Cadets

MSG Mac

The Stewardess badge was awarded to cadets who attended the American Airlines Stewardess School as  a NCSA.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

MSG Mac

Quote from: Garibaldi on June 10, 2014, 02:29:48 PM
The ribbons pictured were used up until 1982 or so. I used to have a set of plastic ribbons.

Quite a bit of the ribbons (ECI, Individual Activity Ribbons, Command., etc) were abolished by BG Patterson in the 70's.
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: BHartman007 on June 10, 2014, 05:37:07 PM
This one doesn't even have airman grades. It has private, corporal, and then into the sgt. grades.

The Air Force started out with Army grades, first with Army-type insignia and then with similar insignia to today, but with Army rank titles.

They then went to Airman Third Class, Airman Second Class, Airman First Class, Staff Sergeant and up (my uncle served under this system).

There was, for a very brief time, AF enlisted insignia with "straight line" rather than "down pointing" chevrons.  I saw a basketful of those at a surplus shop about 15 years ago.  I should have got some as I understand they are quite rare.

Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Garibaldi

Quote from: CyBorg on June 10, 2014, 06:14:25 PM
Quote from: BHartman007 on June 10, 2014, 05:37:07 PM
This one doesn't even have airman grades. It has private, corporal, and then into the sgt. grades.

The Air Force started out with Army grades, first with Army-type insignia and then with similar insignia to today, but with Army rank titles.

They then went to Airman Third Class, Airman Second Class, Airman First Class, Staff Sergeant and up (my uncle served under this system).

There was, for a very brief time, AF enlisted insignia with "straight line" rather than "down pointing" chevrons.  I saw a basketful of those at a surplus shop about 15 years ago.  I should have got some as I understand they are quite rare.

I have a whole set of cadet airman insignia from those days. I've posted a picture here somewhere...
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

SarDragon

I'm gonna throw a Sep 1963 date on this. That's when the new program was introduced.

As for the stuff on the bottom being available from NHQ, that would be the Bookstore. I'm not sure about the entire big picture, but some stuff was licensed to the various manufacturers (Wolf-Brown, Vanguard, Gemsco, etc.), and some was only available from the Bookstore.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

The CyBorg is destroyed

This is an example of the "straight" chevrons I was talking about.



They're apparently quite rare, because my ANG recruiter had never even heard of them.  I wonder how they depicted the senior NCO grades; this would be, in the nomenclature of the time, an Airman First Class (E-4).

I'm going to go out on a serious limb and suggest that the CAP NCO programme adopt them if when it gets going...no need for the tacky "CAP" superscript and this couldn't be confused with any military service insignia.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Mitchell 1969

#12
Quote from: MSG Mac on June 10, 2014, 06:08:42 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on June 10, 2014, 02:29:48 PM
The ribbons pictured were used up until 1982 or so. I used to have a set of plastic ribbons.

Quite a bit of the ribbons (ECI, Individual Activity Ribbons, Command., etc) were abolished by BG Patterson in the 70's.

It was 1971. I wore the 2 Cadet Flying Encampment ribbons for less than a year.

The Great Ribbon Purge was due to a USAF initiated general questioning as to whether or not all of the ribbons were necessary. Truth to tell, there were growing "ribbon to show that you did something leading to another ribbon" concerns. For example, a ribbon that basically meant you had earned the Communications Badge. Two Glying Encampment ribbons, one national, one for Region/Wing activities, with either leading to solo badge and/or pilot wings. Another ribbon for completing ECI 7C (which later evolved to ECI 13 Officers Course).

A lot of baby went out with the bath water, though. They dumped the Encampment Ribbon, figuring that it was covered by the Mitchell, but not considering repeat attendees or Seniors. It didn't come back until 1985, with the green eliminated (to stop confusion that resulted in people sometimes wearing it upside down). The distinctive WWII ribbons were also dumped in favor of one generic ribbon. I thought that was a low blow - they weren't awarding any more of those and they could have let the WWII people attrit them out. (I met a number of people who had earned one or more and people did notice them.)

The items listed as for sale by NHQ were "restricted items." There was evidently some belief that poseurs and imposters would try to wear things they had not earned. In fact, bogus cDet officers were sometimes uncovered because they had no Mitchell ribbon. Mitchell, Earhart, Spaatz, MOV, all restricted.

The poster came from Wolf Brown in Los Angeles. They were big suppliers to CAP. Every squadron could request the poster and most hung them on the wall.

I'd put the date on this as 1964-65 (first Flying Encampment was 1965; breast badges replaced breast patches in...1965? 1966?)
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: CyBorg on June 11, 2014, 02:27:12 AM
This is an example of the "straight" chevrons I was talking about.



They're apparently quite rare, because my ANG recruiter had never even heard of them.  I wonder how they depicted the senior NCO grades; this would be, in the nomenclature of the time, an Airman First Class (E-4).

I'm going to go out on a serious limb and suggest that the CAP NCO programme adopt them if when it gets going...no need for the tacky "CAP" superscript and this couldn't be confused with any military service insignia.

I, also, used to run across these in surplus stores, as late as the 1980's.

As to senior NCO versions - there weren't any. First, there were no SMsgt or CMSgt grades when these were designed in the 50's. Second - they weren't meant for NCOs. In fact, just the opposite - the angled chevrons were intended to set NCOs apart from airmen, who would wear the horizontal stripes. Somebody didn't like them, they were not adopted (there may or may not have been a trial period) and they were ordered destroyed - which somehow led to them ending up in surplus stores.
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

Eclipse

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 11, 2014, 02:28:38 AMThe poster came from Wolf Brown in Los Angeles. They were big suppliers to CAP. Every squadron could request the poster and most hung them on the wall.

Quoth the Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard_Industries_Inc.):
"In 1985, Vanguard expanded to both Coasts when it merged with the Wolf-Brown Corporation. Several years later another branch office opened in Kaneohe, Hawaii. In November 1996 Vanguard opened its East Coast office in Norfolk and the transition was completed in June 1997."

So love them or hate them, VG has been a CAP supplier for nearly 30 years, predating the Bookstore.


"That Others May Zoom"

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: Eclipse on June 11, 2014, 02:39:42 AM
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 11, 2014, 02:28:38 AMThe poster came from Wolf Brown in Los Angeles. They were big suppliers to CAP. Every squadron could request the poster and most hung them on the wall.

Quoth the Wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard_Industries_Inc.):
"In 1985, Vanguard expanded to both Coasts when it merged with the Wolf-Brown Corporation. Several years later another branch office opened in Kaneohe, Hawaii. In November 1996 Vanguard opened its East Coast office in Norfolk and the transition was completed in June 1997."

So love them or hate them, VG has been a CAP supplier for nearly 30 years, predating the Bookstore.

Wolf Brown was a family operation. The old man died and the kids weren't into it, so they eventually sold.

Another one I miss - S. Mitchell and Co., 8 W. 26th St, NY, NY (surprised I still remember the address, but I sent them a lot of orders).

S. Mitchell was a military supplier too. I think they may have done subcontract work to bigger companies that were awarded bids. Anyway, they also manufactured "non restricted" CAP items. Cutouts, embroidered stuff, nameplates, wings, cap devices etc. Inexpensive, high quality (many items better than the bookstore, nothing worse than Bookstore quality) and rapid turnaround. They'd ship to individuals same day upon receipt of a personal check. Another family business that went away when the old man died. (And mind boggling to think that they ran the place out of a Manhattan facility).
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

flyboy53

#16
Quote from: CyBorg on June 11, 2014, 02:27:12 AM
This is an example of the "straight" chevrons I was talking about.



They're apparently quite rare, because my ANG recruiter had never even heard of them.  I wonder how they depicted the senior NCO grades; this would be, in the nomenclature of the time, an Airman First Class (E-4).

I'm going to go out on a serious limb and suggest that the CAP NCO programme adopt them if when it gets going...no need for the tacky "CAP" superscript and this couldn't be confused with any military service insignia.

Depending on who you talk to, some people call these chevrons as prototypes. Others will say they're from the transition period. In 1948, when the Air Force was shifting from the Army enlisted rank structure, to an Air Force unique one, these chevrons were developed by a board of senior NCOs to identify the first four airmen grades. (three with insignia). You will find reference to them in AF regulations of the period and in the AF Officer and NCO guides of the period. The ranks were used until phased out about 1955 on order of General Vandenberg when he was AF Chief of Staff.

Rare, I'm not sure. E-Bay and some surplus shops are flooded with them because whole boxes of the rank were found in the Air Force supply chain and then disposed of through salvage.

Popular, I'm not sure about that either. The same drawings that show this rank insignia also show the traditional rank insignia for the airman grades.

Collectable? Certainly! But the rank insignia that is more collectable from that era has metal enlisted rank framed in wings as a pin.

Have CAP adopt them? Forget it, the Air Force wouldn't approve.

ColonelJack

Quote from: CyBorg on June 11, 2014, 02:27:12 AM
This is an example of the "straight" chevrons I was talking about.



They're apparently quite rare, because my ANG recruiter had never even heard of them.  I wonder how they depicted the senior NCO grades; this would be, in the nomenclature of the time, an Airman First Class (E-4).

I'm going to go out on a serious limb and suggest that the CAP NCO programme adopt them if when it gets going...no need for the tacky "CAP" superscript and this couldn't be confused with any military service insignia.

If I remember correctly, these were (as you say) the original design of AF sleeve stripes for an Airman First Class (E-4 non-NCO).  Two straight bars would be Airman Second Class (E-3), while one bar would be Airman Third Class (E-2).  When the Air Force was separating from the Army, extensive work was done to create a new design for chevrons for the enlisted force.  Gen. Hoyt Vandenberg was the point man on these designs and, while he liked the upswept "wing" design of the stripes for Sgt (E-4 NCO) and up, he wasn't too thrilled with the straight-bar designs for the lower ranks.  So they got the kibosh.

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

Garibaldi

To bring this to an even weirder dimension, this is the way I was drawing airmen/NCO insignia when I was designing my idea for a new NCO/Officer program for CAP! I had no idea that these even existed.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

ColonelJack

Quote from: CyBorg on June 11, 2014, 02:27:12 AM

They're apparently quite rare, because my ANG recruiter had never even heard of them.  I wonder how they depicted the senior NCO grades; this would be, in the nomenclature of the time, an Airman First Class (E-4).


From E-4 Sergeant and up, the stripes were the ones used until McPeak's revamp of enlisted insignia in the '90s.  McPeak's changes included MSgt, which went from six "wings" and no chevron, to five "wings" and one chevron; SMSgt added a second chevron above five (vice one chevron above six) and CMSgt became three chevrons above five (vice two chevrons above six).

More than you wanted to know ...

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

The CyBorg is destroyed

I remember when the stripes changed in the 1990s.

A lot of people were unhappy with that, NCO's especially, because getting their "star" when making E-4 (Buck Sgt) was something to be remembered - becoming an NCO.

I personally feel it was a bit stupid to phase out "bucks," especially since it made the Air Force the only service not to have E-4's as a noncommissioned rank (except for those in the Army who became Specialists instead of Corporals).  Nomenclature-wise, going from Senior Airman to Staff Sergeant without a basic "Sergeant" rank in between just seems odd.

Then again, the Australian Army is phasing out Staff Sergeants (promotions will be directly from Sergeant to Warrant Officer Two - their warrants are more like our SNCO's), so who said there was anything logical about military rank?

After all, my dad was one of the earliest Specialist 4's, and he said at that time it was to be like an enlisted warrant officer corps for, well, specialists (he was a radio repairman).  Now promotion to Specialist E-4 is the rule instead of the exception.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

ColonelJack

Regarding the Army's Specialist ranks ...

They were indeed a kind of enlisted warrant corps, or at least that was the intention.  They had their base in the Technician grades during WWII.  The grades were supposed to go all the way from E-4 to E-9, with Specialists and NCOs getting the same pay, but Specialists would not have any of the command authority or responsibility that NCOs have.  The grades of Specialist 8 and Specialist 9 existed only on paper, as no one was ever actually promoted to those grades.  When the Army phased out the Spec. 5 through 7 grades, they transferred the people in those grades to corresponding NCO grades and kept only Specialist 4.  Now called just "Specialist," it is (as we all know) the E-4 pay grade for those who are not NCOs, which are corporals.

Thus endeth the history lesson...

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

TeamBronx

As a cadet and senior member in NY City, we always took the subway to go see Harry at S. Mitchell's.  He was always friendly and would allow some of us to pick items off of his storage shelves.  When he was getting ready to retire, he offered the business to a good CAP friend of mine, but they could not come to terms.