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Rank structure question

Started by Nikos, June 02, 2014, 11:33:12 PM

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The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: Eclipse on June 03, 2014, 07:21:47 PM
^ Not really any different then the rest of the world, corporate or otherwise.

I don't know of too many situations, outsides >maybe< professional sports, where objective performance
is the only criteria for advancement (even professional sports have issues with timing and "who you know").

There's always an element of politics (in the generic sense) and having to impress the next tier.

Nonetheless, something I am thoroughly unskilled with.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Eclipse

Quote from: CyBorg on June 03, 2014, 08:33:50 PM
Nonetheless, something I am thoroughly unskilled with.

Then you have some personal development goals for the remainder of the year.

"That Others May Zoom"

Mitchell 1969

#22
Quote from: Garibaldi on June 03, 2014, 02:27:12 PM
Quote from: Panache on June 03, 2014, 06:56:32 AM
Has anybody actually heard anything regarding the revised CAP "NCO" program?  There was that big announcement in October and... nothing... seven months later.

Anyhoo...

If they really want to expand / reboot the CAP airman side, my suggestion would be to reserve the Airman grades (Airman, Airman First Class, Senior Airman) for those CAP senior members who join only because their kid is a cadet and they really don't want to do any managing of the squadron, and they have zero interest in the PD program.

{snip}


I set a similar set of "requirements" in another post, very similar to yours. Sounds like we have a winner on this NCO/Airman deal.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, in the 60's-70's, CAP had twenty year old Master Sergeants who looked out of place. But that's nothing compared to a 40 year old Airman.

But, why even have a stripes track for people who just want to help out? I think the UK ATC solved this. Some of their people are officers, in uniform, rank titles. Others are "Instructors," blazers, no pretense of them being uniformed people with military ranks.
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

Garibaldi

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 03, 2014, 09:36:24 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on June 03, 2014, 02:27:12 PM
Quote from: Panache on June 03, 2014, 06:56:32 AM
Has anybody actually heard anything regarding the revised CAP "NCO" program?  There was that big announcement in October and... nothing... seven months later.

Anyhoo...

If they really want to expand / reboot the CAP airman side, my suggestion would be to reserve the Airman grades (Airman, Airman First Class, Senior Airman) for those CAP senior members who join only because their kid is a cadet and they really don't want to do any managing of the squadron, and they have zero interest in the PD program.

{snip}


I set a similar set of "requirements" in another post, very similar to yours. Sounds like we have a winner on this NCO/Airman deal.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, in the 60's-70's, CAP had twenty year old Master Sergeants who looked out of place. But that's nothing compared to a 40 year old Airman.

But, why even have a stripes track for people who just want to help out? I think the UK ATC solved this. Some of their people are officers, in uniform, rank titles. Others are "Instructors," blazers, no pretense of them being uniformed people with military ranks.

I spent a good deal of time today revising my own vision of the senior member program. I am sure, absolutely sure, that this plan I have is completely and 100% unattainable and I have all the specifics and such wrong, and have not taken into account a lot of things.

Say a person joins CAP at 18 and wants to be a SM. They will join CAP as they would the military, with no rank or nothin'. After 6 months, they get to be promoted to Airman as part of Level 1. In a year, they get another stripe to A1C. 3 years later, they can promote to SrAmn and complete Level 1. At that time, they have the option to either "test out" and become a 2nd Lt, or they can continue to progress up through the NCO corps, eventually topping out at CMSGT in a minimum of 14 years. The grade structure and TIG requirements are in line with the Air Force. Level 2 would encompass SSGT and TSGT, Level 3 MSGT, Level 4 SMSGT, and Level 5 CMSGT.

Not interested in progressing past SrAmn as an NCO? No Problem! You can, as I said, "test out" and become a 2nd Lt. After 6 months, start Level 2 and promote to 1st Lt at 12 months. And so on.

Interested in a field that doesn't involve command or a specialty such as legal, medical, or chaplain? No problem! Here's our handy Flight Officer program. You can specialize in Admin, Personnel, Logistics, ES, AE, and a host of other specialties!

Wanna be a REAL ossifer? If you're a pilot, or a lawyer, or medical officer, you can get instant gratification as a REAL CAP OFFICER! Depending on how many hours you have as a pilot, or your educational level in your professional field, you can start off as anywhere from a 2nd Lt to a Captain!

If for some reason you are appointed to a squadron leadership position, you will be temporarily granted a grade of:

CC: Major
DCC/DCS: Captain

These grades are temporary if you are a FO or NCO, permanent if you are a REAL CAP OFFICER and have satisfied the professional development requirements for those grades. If not, you revert back to your grade upon removal from office.

Cadet turning senior at 18? A little more dicey. If you're a Mitchell, Earhart, or Spaatz recipient, you would start off as a FO, SFO, or TFO until you turn 21, then you would start off as a 2nd Lt. No more 21 year old captains! However, you would be allowed to progress through Level 1 and 2 until you are all caught up.

Of course, there are a lot of things I am missing, and probably will get raked over the coals, but it was something I have been thinking of for a while now.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Luis R. Ramos

No thank you, it is fine as it is.
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Garibaldi

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 03, 2014, 10:41:06 PM
No thank you, it is fine as it is.

I put way too much, and way too little, thought into it, as you can see.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Eclipse

#26
Quote from: Garibaldi on June 03, 2014, 10:27:31 PM
These grades are temporary if you are a FO or NCO, permanent if you are a REAL CAP OFFICER and have satisfied the professional development requirements for those grades. If not, you revert back to your grade upon removal from office.

This is where I have the issue, and where it breaks down in a paradigm of "you're lucky I showed up at all" - either you're qualified or you aren't.

If being a "real" major requires PD, then you shouldn't get the oaks just because you take a job, regardless of
the grade or job being discussed.

And conversely, if being a Unit CC means you really should be a major, then until you >are< a major, or at least
major qualified, then you shouldn't get the job.

That doesn't work in CAP's current envelope of no planning, manning, or expectations, but by the same token,
provisional grade is also a waste of time, not to mention an expense (albeit relatively minor).

"That Others May Zoom"

Garibaldi

Quote from: Eclipse on June 03, 2014, 10:50:34 PM
Quote from: Garibaldi on June 03, 2014, 10:27:31 PM
These grades are temporary if you are a FO or NCO, permanent if you are a REAL CAP OFFICER and have satisfied the professional development requirements for those grades. If not, you revert back to your grade upon removal from office.

This is where I have the issue, and where it breaks down in a paradigm of "you're lucky I showed up at all" - either you're qualified or you aren't.

If being a "real" major requires PD, then you shouldn't get the oaks just because you take a job, regardless of
the grade or job being discussed.

And conversely, if being a Unit CC is means you really should be a major, then until you >are< a major, or at least
major qualified, then you shouldn't get the job.

That doesn't work in CAP's current envelope of no planning, manning, or expectations, but by the same token,
provisional grade is also a waste of time, not to mention an expense (albeit relatively minor).

Yeah, see, told you I there were some issues.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Panache

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 03, 2014, 09:36:24 PM
But, why even have a stripes track for people who just want to help out?

Honestly?  Just to keep their interest piqued. 

This particular proposal popped into my head because we have a newish SM who joined because her son is a cadet.  She's a real nice person, but holds absolutely no interest in the PD program.  None.  We're trying to get her through Level 1, but her eyes just glaze over when we start getting into the history of CAP and whatnot. 

Sure, she could just stay a SMWOG, but with the "Airman" proposal, it gives her some goals, something she could look forward too.  More importantly, it gives her a sense of progression with her kid. 

It's a way for CAP to reach out to parents (who I imagine would be the primary participant of this) and say "even though you don't want to take part in our Professional Development program, we still would like you to be a member and be part of the squadron."  You know, CAP being inclusive.

Nikos

Sorry guys, I did not mean to open a can of works.  I was only interested in how things were done in past. 

Garibaldi

Quote from: Nikos on June 04, 2014, 04:10:02 PM
Sorry guys, I did not mean to open a can of works.  I was only interested in how things were done in past.

It's no big deal. We're just waiting now to see who turns this into a uniform thread. All threads serve the uniform. Hail Uniform!
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

Luis R. Ramos

Quote
...All threads serve the uniform. Hail Uniform!

You just did!!!

:P
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Garibaldi

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on June 04, 2014, 09:10:45 PM
Quote
...All threads serve the uniform. Hail Uniform!

You just did!!!

:P

No, I didn't!
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

flyboy53

#33
Quote from: Nikos on June 02, 2014, 11:33:12 PM
In the old days did CAP have enlisted ranks?  If so, how did it work?

For example, if a new member had a University Degree, did that person start as an officer?  If on the other hand the new member had no University Degree did that person go to enlisted rank?

Not sure if your question was answered, so let me help.

First, a good resource, if you can find it is the three volume set for CAP member training from 1949. Vol. 1 was called the Civil Air Patrol Manual, Vol. 2 was an Aviation Study Manual for senior members and the third, in blue, was an Aviation Preflight Manual for cadets.

The rank structure (officer and enlisted) was pretty much a product of three things: CAP members "called to active duty" (according to Vol. 1) for for the Coastal Patrol mission, the Executive Order transfer of the CAP under the Army Air Forces, and the implementation of the cadet program which was seen as a preliminary step for individuals wanting to join the AAF. A cadet of that era could actually join CAP and serve in the AAF Enlisted Reserve. Also, at one point CAP administered military service qualification tests.

According to Vol. 1, rank was pretty much controlled by training, hours of service and a very formal Table of Organization. Although there are no illustrations of senior member rank insignia, I can pretty much guess that the enlisted rank structure went from private to master sergeant with the senior ranks heavily dependent on unit vacancies and training. There were no senior or chief master sergeants in the Air Force at that time. In that era, especially in 1949, there were CAP warrant officers and officer trainees. OTs were of the same age that our flight officers are now.

Cadets only had nine ranks: C/PFC, C/CPL, and C/Sgt. and a C/Sgt, with a first sergeant diamond; C/2nd Lt., C/1st Lt, C/Capt., C/Maj., C/Lt. Col., and C/Col.; and three ribbons: red, white and blue service ribbons. Cadets had to complete 11 achievements then called Units and each unit was tied to a civilian or military occupation.

The interesting thing is that senior members only had six ribbons: Distinguished, Exceptional and Meritorious Service Awards, and the blue, white and red service ribbons.

I've talked before about the enlisted program and it's demise in the 1970s. I was an CAP NCO then and I got the skinny of what happened years later when I became a CAP-RAP NCO. I'm pretty sure that the return of the NCO program has a lot to do with efforts to bring the CAP more under the Air Force again. I wish we had officer trainees instead of flight officers.


Nikos

Thank you flyboy1, I found your reply, and others were interesting.  I was a History major when I was in College, thus my interest in CAP History.  This gives me a direction to find more information.

Speaking as one of the new guys here, I must agree that the uniform threads seem to get a lot of "ink", so to speak.

MacGruff

#35
Quote from: Panache on June 03, 2014, 06:56:32 AM
Has anybody actually heard anything regarding the revised CAP "NCO" program?  There was that big announcement in October and... nothing... seven months later.

Anyhoo...

If they really want to expand / reboot the CAP airman side, my suggestion would be to reserve the Airman grades (Airman, Airman First Class, Senior Airman) for those CAP senior members who join only because their kid is a cadet and they really don't want to do any managing of the squadron, and they have zero interest in the PD program.

Example: Mr. Smith wants to join CAP because his son/daughter is a cadet.  But he's looking at all the other senior members and thinking "I want to help out, but I really don't want to deal with all that professional development nonsense.  I don't want to be responsible for commanding a squadron, or managing their finances, or any of that."

So, instead of joining as a SMWOG and becoming another empty-shirt 2d Lieutenant in six months, he joins as a CAP Airman Basic.

Give him an abbreviated version of Level 1, a "basic training" if you will, that covers the bare essentials (CPPT, OPSEC, a brief run-down on uniform wear and C&Cs).  Once he passes that and his FBI check comes back okay, he's immediately promoted to Airman and given his stripe. 

Airman First Class and Senior Airman will have TIG and some other requirements, but nothing too heavy.  Once they reach Senior Airman, they can work towards Staff Sergeant once they complete the full Level 1 program and put TIG or transition to the Officer track if they choose to do so.  (They can transition to the officer track at any time they wish, assuming they meet the requirements.)

The purpose of this will (1) encourage those who want to help out, but not "too much", to join and contribute.  (2)  It will give them something to personally work for and a goal to achieve, encouraging them to stay in CAP.  (3)  It's a nice carrot, as they can tell their buddies at the PTA meeting that they're "an Airman First Class in the Air Force Auxiliary."

In short:

Airman Corps
Adults who want to "help out" but don't have the desire, ability, or time to help manage the Squadron.  "Level 0.5"/Basic Training a requirement for Airman.  Also, adults who want to "try out" CAP but don't want to commit to anything yet.

NCO Corps
Prior RealMilitary™ NCOs or CAP Airmen who have worked up the ladder.  Level 1 a requirement for Staff Sergeant or higher.

Officer Corps
Everybody else.  Level 1 a requirement for 2d Lieutenant.


Panache - what you are suggesting already exists. They are called Cadet Sponsor Members.

Only PD requirement is level 1; they are then allowed to accompany and chaperone cadets on trips and activities. No promotions though.


Panache

Quote from: MacGruff on June 05, 2014, 01:24:27 AM
Panache - what you are suggesting already exists. They are called Cadet Sponsor Members.

Only PD requirement is level 1; they are then allowed to accompany and chaperone cadets on trips and activities. No promotions though.

But my proposal has five significant changes from the Cadet Sponsor Member program:

1) Elimination of Level 1 as a requirement.  Instead, it would be "Level 1 Lite" (CPPT, OPSEC, uniform wear and C&C).
2) Authorization to wear the AF-style uniforms (CSMs are only authorized the Corporate variants, as per CAPR 39-2 5-1(h).)
3) As outlined above, the limited promotion track.
4) Also eligible for awards and commendations if appropriate (CSMs are barred from awards and commendations as per CAPR 39-2 5-1(i).) 
5) Can be assigned to duty positions in an Assistant capacity (i.e. Assistant Safety Officer, Assistant AE Officer, etc.).  CSMs are not authorized to perform in any duty assignment, as per CAPR 39-2 1-12.

But other than that, yeah, totally the same thing.   ;)

Mitchell 1969

Quote from: Panache on June 05, 2014, 04:41:22 AM
Quote from: MacGruff on June 05, 2014, 01:24:27 AM
Panache - what you are suggesting already exists. They are called Cadet Sponsor Members.

Only PD requirement is level 1; they are then allowed to accompany and chaperone cadets on trips and activities. No promotions though.

But my proposal has five significant changes from the Cadet Sponsor Member program:

1) Elimination of Level 1 as a requirement.  Instead, it would be "Level 1 Lite" (CPPT, OPSEC, uniform wear and C&C).
2) Authorization to wear the AF-style uniforms (CSMs are only authorized the Corporate variants, as per CAPR 39-2 5-1(h).)
3) As outlined above, the limited promotion track.
4) Also eligible for awards and commendations if appropriate (CSMs are barred from awards and commendations as per CAPR 39-2 5-1(i).) 
5) Can be assigned to duty positions in an Assistant capacity (i.e. Assistant Safety Officer, Assistant AE Officer, etc.).  CSMs are not authorized to perform in any duty assignment, as per CAPR 39-2 1-12.

But other than that, yeah, totally the same thing.   ;)

So, you're proposing "Cadet Sponsor Member Plus." Or "active member light."

Most CSMs I've met were happy as CSMs. They didn't need USAF type uniforms, weren't interested in the rest of it. Those who became interested in more participation bit the bullet and participated as active members. I'm not sure that CSM Plus or active light would have been of much interest or served any real purpose.
_________________
Bernard J. Wilson, Major, CAP

Mitchell 1969; Earhart 1971; Eaker 1973. Cadet Flying Encampment, License, 1970. IACE New Zealand 1971; IACE Korea 1973.

CAP has been bery, bery good to me.

MacGruff

Quote from: Panache on June 05, 2014, 04:41:22 AM
Quote from: MacGruff on June 05, 2014, 01:24:27 AM
Panache - what you are suggesting already exists. They are called Cadet Sponsor Members.

Only PD requirement is level 1; they are then allowed to accompany and chaperone cadets on trips and activities. No promotions though.

But my proposal has five significant changes from the Cadet Sponsor Member program:

1) Elimination of Level 1 as a requirement.  Instead, it would be "Level 1 Lite" (CPPT, OPSEC, uniform wear and C&C).
2) Authorization to wear the AF-style uniforms (CSMs are only authorized the Corporate variants, as per CAPR 39-2 5-1(h).)
3) As outlined above, the limited promotion track.
4) Also eligible for awards and commendations if appropriate (CSMs are barred from awards and commendations as per CAPR 39-2 5-1(i).) 
5) Can be assigned to duty positions in an Assistant capacity (i.e. Assistant Safety Officer, Assistant AE Officer, etc.).  CSMs are not authorized to perform in any duty assignment, as per CAPR 39-2 1-12.

But other than that, yeah, totally the same thing.   ;)

Yep. totally the same.   ;)

In our squadron we have at least three active Cadet Sponsor Members. Each of them has been approached multiple times about becoming active Senior Members and each turned it down. Why? They are not interested in rank structure, uniforms, awards, staff positions, or more coursework. They want to contribute to their child's (and each is a parent of a cadet in the program) experiences and help out by being chaperones on trips and helping with the occasional errand or other stuff.


Private Investigator

Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on June 05, 2014, 02:39:48 PM
Quote from: Panache on June 05, 2014, 04:41:22 AM
Quote from: MacGruff on June 05, 2014, 01:24:27 AM
Panache - what you are suggesting already exists. They are called Cadet Sponsor Members.

Only PD requirement is level 1; they are then allowed to accompany and chaperone cadets on trips and activities. No promotions though.

But my proposal has five significant changes from the Cadet Sponsor Member program:

1) Elimination of Level 1 as a requirement.  Instead, it would be "Level 1 Lite" (CPPT, OPSEC, uniform wear and C&C).
2) Authorization to wear the AF-style uniforms (CSMs are only authorized the Corporate variants, as per CAPR 39-2 5-1(h).)
3) As outlined above, the limited promotion track.
4) Also eligible for awards and commendations if appropriate (CSMs are barred from awards and commendations as per CAPR 39-2 5-1(i).) 
5) Can be assigned to duty positions in an Assistant capacity (i.e. Assistant Safety Officer, Assistant AE Officer, etc.).  CSMs are not authorized to perform in any duty assignment, as per CAPR 39-2 1-12.

But other than that, yeah, totally the same thing.   ;)

So, you're proposing "Cadet Sponsor Member Plus." Or "active member light."

Most CSMs I've met were happy as CSMs. They didn't need USAF type uniforms, weren't interested in the rest of it. Those who became interested in more participation bit the bullet and participated as active members. I'm not sure that CSM Plus or active light would have been of much interest or served any real purpose.

Now that is funny. Somebody did say I was a "Light Colonel" and I thought it was the tai chi, yoga and the daily walk.  :clap: