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HWSNBN and Harwell

Started by Archer, March 05, 2014, 07:44:58 AM

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lordmonar

Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 07, 2014, 07:52:25 PM
But the bottom line is, what's more important? The uniform or the mission? The uniform or the organization? The uniform or the members? In CAP, it seems the uniform discussion is always front and center.
Depends on who you talk to.

Also......"In CAP..." is NOT the same thing as "On CAPTalk..."

At my weekly meetings, during training, SARs, GF Missions, etc......uniforms are not front and center.   But here.....it is a different story.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Storm Chaser

^ You know what? I have to agree with you.

Eclipse

#82
The solution is:

Pick a uniform which all members can wear, that fits mission needs first, with affectation and affinity a secondary consideration.

Since the USAF appears to not be interested in allowing all members to wear the USAF-Styles, then those should not be an option.

Configure something which everyone can wear, act like a leader and push it through, and everyone moves on.

It's only complicated when you allow unrelated factors to influence your decision.

The other option is to eliminate the wear of corporate variants, including terminating anyone who can't make weight.

Frankly, I'd  respect the leadership more for making that actual decision, including accepting the attrition, then this
nonsensical attempt at pleasing everyone while in the end pleasing no one, and hurting the organization's image,
and esprit-de-corps.

It is one thing if you offer a variant which is optional for those who choose to wear it, but as I have said hundred times
before, echoed by others, to treat more than 1/2 your adult membership as a different class for no other reason then their weight,
while at the same time being fully aware that those same members are doing the lion's share of the work, is a disservice
to everyone involved, works against the rhetoric of diversity and equality, and is simply a bad, disrespectful, and dismissive idea.

Further to that, it is the height of hypocrisy for members who are not allowed to wear the uniform themselves, to appear in
public at national activities, serve on national committees, and in some cases direct others to makes changes while they themselves
simply ignore the regs for expedience, ego, or some other self-actualization.  That situation itself impacts the organization's
credibility both internally and externally to an extent also largely ignored by the leadership, who then try to nullify the point
by saying "uniforms aren't important", or "surely they aren't impacting the mission".

They are, they are, and just because they aren't the biggest hole in the boat doesn't mean they don't contribute to the water in the holds.

The uniform should serve the mission and the members, not the egos.

"That Others May Zoom"

Luis R. Ramos

QuoteFfrom Eclipse...

....your adult membership as a different class for no other reason then their weight, while at the same time being fully aware that those same members are doing the lion's share of the work, is a disservice to everyone involved, works against the rhetoric of diversity and equality, and is simply not a bad idea.... You mean ....not a good idea.... right?

....They are, they are, and just because they aren't the biggest hole in the boat doesn't mean they don't contribute to the water in the holds....


Love the comparison!

Flyer
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

Storm Chaser

I can live with one uniform, regardless of the one chosen. I agree; a decision must be made.

We either have a corporate uniform that everyone can wear or we enforce weight and grooming standards that will most likely force many of our members out (not the best solution). Either way, a decision must be made so that we can move on.

While I tend to favor wearing the AF-style uniforms over the current corporate ones, I hate that not all members can wear the same uniform. A new CAP only uniform wouldn't be such a bad idea.  There are many non-Air Force-style alternatives that look professional and could meet our operational and organizational needs.

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 07, 2014, 10:20:34 PM
There are many non-Air Force-style alternatives that look professional and could meet our operational and organizational needs.

There are (I tend to favour airline-type uniforms; you can get them off the rack at many pilot shops).

However, getting Those Who Know Better Than We Do to budge from the status quo...that's another matter entirely.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Panache

Quote from: Eclipse on March 07, 2014, 06:04:31 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on March 07, 2014, 04:24:03 AM
Blazer with bowtie + medal.  >:D

I agree it is not equivalent, but worn with a nice shirt (i.e. french cuffs) it doesn't look that bad.

Think "Party Member" vs. the normal "Realtor / Olympic judge".

Inner or Outer Party.... comrade?

Quote from: Eclipse on March 07, 2014, 09:48:23 PM
Further to that, it is the height of hypocrisy for members who are not allowed to wear the uniform themselves, to appear in
public at national activities, serve on national committees, and in some cases direct others to makes changes while they themselves
simply ignore the regs for expedience, ego, or some other self-actualization. 

^^ This.

A while back I mentioned that at the quarterly Group meeting, there was a Lt. Col. who was both heavier and shorter than I wearing AF-style blues with a service coat.  I'm standing there in my G/W's because, hey, that's what the regs say I should be wearing and I like to think I have integrity.

If this Lt. Col. is wearing to "cheat" with the uniform regs, what else would he "cheat" on?

Quote from: Storm Chaser on March 07, 2014, 08:35:48 PM
Eliminate the corporate uniforms. Remove weight and grooming standards and let everyone wear AF-style uniforms.

My personal #1 choice, but I think the chances of Ma Blue being okay with this is on par with them giving an officer's commission to a (literal) pig so he can go fly F-35's.

Quote- Keep both styles of uniforms. Make the corporate uniforms more on par with the AF-style; more military like.
My personal #2 choice.  I don't want to take away AF-blues from those that can wear them, but I would like my uniform to not look like I should be closing the deal on a 2-bedroom / 1-and-a-half bath in a Philly suburb or yelling at kids to stop running around in the food court.

QuoteEliminate the AF-style uniform. Make a single corporate uniform for every member to wear. This uniform should be a distinctive CAP equivalent of the Air Force uniform.

My #3 choice.

QuoteThe status quo. Everything stays the same.

Unfortunately, the most likely to happen.

vento

Geeez, how did we turn this thread into another uniform thread? It is incredibly amazing.  >:D

SarDragon

Quote from: vento on March 08, 2014, 05:17:00 AM
Geeez, how did we turn this thread into another uniform thread? It is incredibly amazing.  >:D

Quote from: CyBorg on March 07, 2014, 07:02:43 PM
Quote from: UH60guy on March 07, 2014, 06:33:02 PM
Interesting thought: even a drama-filled topic (HWSNBN and Harwell) degenerates into a uniform thread in three pages.  >:D

I wonder if there's a law of forum inertia: A uniform thread will remain a uniform thread unless locked by a moderator. A thread on topic will remain a thread on topic unless a uniform is mentioned.

In this case, both Generalissimos' actions had a direct impact on CAP uniforms.

And so it goes.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: Panache on March 08, 2014, 04:51:02 AM
The status quo. Everything stays the same.

Unfortunately, the most likely to happen.

And you're right, you're bloody well right, ya gotta bloody right to say.

When I saw the draft of 39-1 it just confirmed that in my mind:  Those Who Know Better Than We Lower Forms Of Life are determined to keep us in two separate "classes" of uniform, and member opinion mean nothing.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

lordmonar

Quote from: CyBorg on March 08, 2014, 05:53:56 AM
Quote from: Panache on March 08, 2014, 04:51:02 AM
The status quo. Everything stays the same.

Unfortunately, the most likely to happen.

And you're right, you're bloody well right, ya gotta bloody right to say.

When I saw the draft of 39-1 it just confirmed that in my mind:  Those Who Know Better Than We Lower Forms Of Life are determined to keep us in two separate "classes" of uniform, and member opinion mean nothing.
Okay....I got to say here......analyze that last statement.

"Those who know better".........what makes you think your opinion is any more important than those on the NUC?   No really.   You simply assume that the NUC is ignoring "member opinion" because of some undefined conspiracy theory.

Once again I remind everyone here....CAPTalk ain't CAP.   

Just because someone (or many someones) up the chain disagree with your, mine, our opinion does not mean that the just ignored us.   Maybe.....just maybe......they have information that you or I don't have.   Maybe, just maybe....they got some sort of briefing from CAP-USAF....one they don't want to or can't share with us lowly life forms.

Maybe it is just because I have spent my life in uniform.....but really......when "those who know better" tell me "this is the way it is".......I salute and solder on.    The only difference between my life in the real military and CAP.....Is I can quit at anytime.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

JoeTomasone

The simple fact is that it's a mostly unsolvable problem.   

We have members of the fat-n-fuzzy variety that make significant and important contributions to CAP's missions, and I for one am vehemently against cutting them out of the program or forcing them to comply with USAF uniform requirements, as some of them simply cannot.   That being said, I am certainly all for those that CAN "trim up and trim it" to do so.   Perhaps we SHOULD enforce H/W and grooming standards for those who do not have a religious or medical exemption?  In any event, a uniform should be available to those who cannot meet USAF uniform requirements.

On the other hand, we should, whenever possible, both honor and be identified with our parent service.   We are a part of the Air Force team, and should embrace the fact that Big Blue considers us worthy to wear their uniform.   We should do so properly, professionally, and smartly.  (cue National Anthem)

And, just to keep the knuckleheads in check (insert your favorite salute-trolling or hotel-room-stealing anecdote here), our uniform should be distinctive enough so that we are not confused for AD personnel.   

That being said, when it comes to customs and courtesies, if AD personnel were encouraged (but not required) to extend C&C to CAP officers, that would strike a balance between our civilian status and being a part of the Air Force team.   No, we aren't commissioned, fight the enemy, or fall under UCMJ; but we have missions that we perform at the behest of the Air Force, and we have lost members in those missions - and we do it not for money, but for love of service and country.   Is that not worthy of a modicum of respect?   And, quite frankly, I can imagine AD personnel choosing to dispense said respect to those CAP members they deem worthy - like, perhaps, those who wear the uniform properly and professionally, and don't act like a knucklehead.


The main issue that we face - which I directly correlate to the "sins of the past" is the fact that, as an organization, we do not educate our members enough about (or hold them accountable for) the "little things" like C&C, proper uniform wear, our place in the Air Force team, etc.    If everyone had a healthy respect for these from their first day as a CAP member and throughout their time in service, I think a lot of these problems would be/would have been eliminated.    WIWAC in NYWG, this was drilled into us mercilessly.  I don't see much of it at all in FLWG - and (thanks to my Cadet experience?) it irritates me to no end.    (cue "If I was the CAP/CC" daydream)


I think that if we - as an organization - got our collective act together and spent some time on our appearance (professionalism and proper uniform wear) and ENFORCED what our regulations require that USAF would have much less of a problem with our uniforms in general, and how close our CAP distinctive uniforms are to USAF uniforms.   We might have even been able to keep the CSU.

</rant>







BuckeyeDEJ

When it all boils down, it's a matter of integrity.

HWSRN definitely showed us the importance of integrity, and how compromised integrity let not only himself down, but an entire organization. The uniforms are a tangible expression of not abiding by the rules and not respecting the process, and it's something many of our colleagues seize upon, whether we like it or not. (Of course, we always question the uniform threads because we ask ourselves, "did these people join CAP for the uniform, or for the mission?" But that's an aside.)

Political games in CAP for years and years have done the same thing. The maroon epaulets may have been a sign of an earlier lack of respect for what would later become the core values. But the politics does no one any good. Put the mission first, then worry about personal conflicts later. Personally, I'm not a political animal and frankly, I don't want to be. I have my preferences, sure, but if I put those above the task at hand, who am I really serving?

"Do as I say, not as I do" is a mentality in pockets of CAP that's been around for as long as the politics. It's also a show of lack of integrity, or compromised integrity.

Our organization is taking bold steps in the direction of expecting integrity in our processes. This is a good thing. It's started at the national level, and will work its way down. Maybe some wings' "good ol' boy" networks will finally see the sole side of the boot. Maybe we'll see more consistency from wing to wing, to address Joe's concern, which I've noticed in different wings in which I've been a member over 30 years (!).

The bottom line (literally and figuratively): If we can't live by the core values first, really, folks, what are we doing?


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

ZigZag911

I know some members of the NUC.

They often ignore input from others completely.

Can't speak for the entire board, just the few I know personally.

Archer

Quote from: usafaux2004 on March 06, 2014, 01:33:39 AM
Quote from: Archer on March 06, 2014, 01:18:53 AM
I understand the need to accomodate those who struggle with weight, but can someone please explain why grooming requirements should be optional?


We have certain members on this board, who have personal reasons for having a beard, for example. For some it is religion. A certain member on here has facial scars from his military service IIRC, and prefers to cover them with a beard. Honestly, if it's our distinctive uniform, AND the AF wants us to NOT be confused with AF, then they should be HAPPY about members with beards.

Well if that's the reason, then why is the privelage of facial hair not extended to cadet members as well?

DoubleSecret

Quote from: JoeTomasone on March 08, 2014, 03:25:25 PM

That being said, when it comes to customs and courtesies, if AD personnel were encouraged (but not required) to extend C&C to CAP officers, that would strike a balance between our civilian status and being a part of the Air Force team.   No, we aren't commissioned, fight the enemy, or fall under UCMJ; but we have missions that we perform at the behest of the Air Force, and we have lost members in those missions - and we do it not for money, but for love of service and country.   Is that not worthy of a modicum of respect?   And, quite frankly, I can imagine AD personnel choosing to dispense said respect to those CAP members they deem worthy - like, perhaps, those who wear the uniform properly and professionally, and don't act like a knucklehead.
</rant>

Opinions follow:

1.  Anyone who renders a valuable public service deserves a modicum of respect.  The question is whether that modicum of respect should be manifested in the form of military customs and courtesies (the salute, sir/ma'am, standing at attention, etc).

2.  Uniformed military personnel should be rendering all appropriate common courtesies to each other and to civilians. 

3.  Uniformed military personnel should be rendering applicable military courtesies to each other and to civilians designated by regulation and tradition (the President as commander-in-chief, veterans who hold the Medal of Honor, etc.).

4.  Uniformed military personnel already have the option to render military courtesies to those who might not otherwise "rate" them.  It's just not often exercised.  If Big Blue informed every Airman tomorrow that they had the option to salute CAP officers, it's my opinion as a USAF retiree that most would opt out.  The Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force puts in over two decades of military service to get to the ultimate enlisted position, and he should be encouraged to render the ultimate military courtesy to a dues-paying volunteer?  Please.

5.  If CAP service is really all about service and country and mission, focus on those things and the people who matter will respect you for it.  If it's about getting military members to render military courtesies to you, a reexamination of priorities is in order.

PHall

Quote from: Archer on March 08, 2014, 09:36:05 PM
Quote from: usafaux2004 on March 06, 2014, 01:33:39 AM
Quote from: Archer on March 06, 2014, 01:18:53 AM
I understand the need to accomodate those who struggle with weight, but can someone please explain why grooming requirements should be optional?


We have certain members on this board, who have personal reasons for having a beard, for example. For some it is religion. A certain member on here has facial scars from his military service IIRC, and prefers to cover them with a beard. Honestly, if it's our distinctive uniform, AND the AF wants us to NOT be confused with AF, then they should be HAPPY about members with beards.

Well if that's the reason, then why is the privelage of facial hair not extended to cadet members as well?


Have you ever seen the facial hair that most, just going through puberty, teenage males can produce?
It's not pretty. >:D

The CyBorg is destroyed

#97
Quote from: lordmonar on March 08, 2014, 08:22:47 AM
"Those who know better".........what makes you think your opinion is any more important than those on the NUC?   No really.   You simply assume that the NUC is ignoring "member opinion" because of some undefined conspiracy theory.

I never said it was "more" important, and I do not mean that it is not just I who is not being listened to.

As for "conspiracy theories," I will leave those to Jesse Ventura.

However, I am not the only one on CAPTalk, or indeed in CAP, to comment on the "disconnect" between those further up the food chain and the member at Fizzbelch Squadron ABC.  Uniform issues are not the only example, but they are quite possibly the most visible example.

Again, the CSU is/was a prime example.  I personally never met anyone (in CAP or the Air Force) who had a problem with it.  It was well-liked by many.  Yet it is no more, and it will never be truly known why.

Quote from: lordmonar on March 08, 2014, 08:22:47 AM
Just because someone (or many someones) up the chain disagree with your, mine, our opinion does not mean that the just ignored us.   Maybe.....just maybe......they have information that you or I don't have.   Maybe, just maybe....they got some sort of briefing from CAP-USAF....one they don't want to or can't share with us lowly life forms.

I do not ignore such a possibility.  However, unlike in the RealMilitary, where the concept of "need-to-know basis" is part and parcel of the way information is disseminated, we, as volunteers who give of our time, talent and treasure, do have much more of an inherent "need-to-know" on matters of an organisation we choose to belong to, especially on matters that directly impact us.

Quote from: lordmonar on March 08, 2014, 08:22:47 AM
Maybe it is just because I have spent my life in uniform.....but really......when "those who know better" tell me "this is the way it is".......I salute and solder on.    The only difference between my life in the real military and CAP.....Is I can quit at anytime.

I served also (ANG), though I do not have your many years of distinguished service, for which I honour you.  I had to get out because of a medical condition. 

Yes, in that situation, one must, in the partial words of the Oath of Enlistment, "obey the orders of the officers over me," and that is enforced by the UCMJ and, for Guard members, their State Military Justice Code (the latter is true also for State Defence Forces).  You find that out on your first day of basic training/boot camp!

No, Master Sergeant, the only difference in life in the RealMilitary and CAP is not (solely) that one can quit at any time.  Military members can be ordered into battle or to clean toilets under lawfully given orders.  Information can and is restricted based on need-to-know and one's level of security clearance.

Neither of those are the case in CAP.  I am a Captain, you are a Master Sergeant.  I cannot, and would not, attempt to give you an order.  Such would be unenforceable under CAP regulations and, in my opinion, would be postulated insanity.  I would ask you if you would assist me with a task and thank you afterward.

As well, using the "Tony McPeak" uniform as an example, that was a situation where the Air Force did largely listen to its members who did not like the design/insignia, and General Ronald Fogleman made modifications to the uniform to where it is today.

Those are significant differences.

As for salutes from military members, I am just as content if an Airman, Soldier, Sailor, Marine or Coastie just gives a friendly greeting.

If they initiate the salute (which they are not required to give) that is just an extra "warm fuzzy."  If they reciprocate the salute I give them (which we are required to give), I am content that both me and the officer I have just saluted have done our part to extend/reciprocate courtesy to one another.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: PHall on March 09, 2014, 02:11:46 AM
Have you ever seen the facial hair that most, just going through puberty, teenage males can produce?
It's not pretty. >:D

I am a "different" (to put it mildly) case.  I started greying BEFORE I was able to produce significant "beard," and then that started coming in grey.

Here was this teenager with hair past his shoulders who was already getting "salt-and-pepper" hair.

However, I get your meaning.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Panache

Quote from: ZigZag911 on March 08, 2014, 07:50:32 PM
I know some members of the NUC.

They often ignore input from others completely.

Can't speak for the entire board, just the few I know personally.

I can't say I'm surprised one bit.