HWSNBN and Harwell

[SunDog]

Our organization is taking bold steps in the direction of expecting integrity in our processes. This is a good thing. It's started at the national level, and will work its way down.

It needs to work its way down a lot faster. . . and add some bold steps in the direction of business process reengineering, communication, transparancy, leadership, and vision.

[Eclipse]

Our organization is taking bold steps in the direction of expecting integrity in our processes. This is a good thing. It's started at the national level, and will work its way down.

"Bold steps"? Assuming you're speaking of the governance changes, I can't agree they are "bold".

"The bare minimum to keep the doors open a little longer?  That's closer to the truth.

Those changes make some small difference to a small group who may feel they have less of a direct voice
and vote at the national level, but for the most part, little has, or is going to change, and the average member
is never going to know the difference.

"Bold changes" spread the pain around to everyone and impact every member in a tangible way.

[BillB]

I note that most of the posts here refers to non-USAF style uniforms for senior members. Cadet uniforms are totally ignored. I read that CAP is down to 35,000 members, and probably 50% are cadets who get the free USAF uniforms.  So of those 15,000 to 20,000 senior members, how many wear more than the polo to meetings? When you get down to it, CAPO has two missions, Cadet Programs and SAR. Most people lump AE into cadet programs. So basically you have two groups inCAP wearing a multitude of uniform variations. Cadets in blues or BDU,s and seniors in blues, flight suits, polos, G&W, or any of the other corporate variations. Elimanate the blues for seniors and make them wear a specific corporate uniform? Never happen! To many seniors that meet H&W standards will continue to want the USAF style uniform. And to many fat and fuzzies and those to lazy to put on a standard corporate uniform will  continue to [censored] and moan about uniforms. One answer is to reduce the number of corporate uniform variations including calling the polo shirt a uniform. There will never be a single uniform for seniors and cadets, so why make a gazillion posts on uniforms as long as Ma Blue enforces the H&W standards for CAP members. Accept the fact that at an average Squadronmeeting you'll have 50% in blues or BDU's and 50% in a multitude of corporate variations.

[flyboy53]

I note that most of the posts here refers to non-USAF style uniforms for senior members. Cadet uniforms are totally ignored. I read that CAP is down to 35,000 members, and probably 50% are cadets who get the free USAF uniforms.  So of those 15,000 to 20,000 senior members, how many wear more than the polo to meetings? When you get down to it, CAPO has two missions, Cadet Programs and SAR. Most people lump AE into cadet programs. So basically you have two groups inCAP wearing a multitude of uniform variations. Cadets in blues or BDU,s and seniors in blues, flight suits, polos, G&W, or any of the other corporate variations. Elimanate the blues for seniors and make them wear a specific corporate uniform? Never happen! To many seniors that meet H&W standards will continue to want the USAF style uniform. And to many fat and fuzzies and those to lazy to put on a standard corporate uniform will  continue to [censored] and moan about uniforms. One answer is to reduce the number of corporate uniform variations including calling the polo shirt a uniform. There will never be a single uniform for seniors and cadets, so why make a gazillion posts on uniforms as long as Ma Blue enforces the H&W standards for CAP members. Accept the fact that at an average Squadronmeeting you'll have 50% in blues or BDU's and 50% in a multitude of corporate variations.

Agreed. You want to make it really simple for the ones who don't comply with the Regs? Then limit the uniforms to the polo shirt and the blazer uniform. Go back to the way it use to be where shoulder rank wasn't even allowed on white shirts.

You try to impose a voluntary conformance standard on the warm and fuzzies and all you get is I'm a volunteer. You can't make me do that. Then you get someone to adopt another corporate uniform and we end up in the mess we're in. Then the next argument is that we're the Civil Patrol, aka civilians, and not the Air Force. Everybody always wants their cake and eat it, too!

I just don't get it. People want to volunteer for an organization that has some pretty high performance standards and it seems all people want to do is wear uniforms. Even volunteer firemen are required to adhere to physical standards and must have regular physicals.

I just wonder what this organization would be like if the senior members were out doing drill and PT, just like in WW II. Oh, my gosh, that's too healthy and I'm a volunteer that you can't make me do that.

Look how the same ol', same ol' hijacked yet another string and you wonder why cadets are always laughing at the senior members.....

[Eclipse]

I just don't get it. People want to volunteer for an organization that has some pretty high performance standards and it seems all people want to do is wear uniforms. Even volunteer firemen are required to adhere to physical standards and must have regular physicals.

CAP does not have "high performance standards".

There is no duty which CAP is >supposed to< be involved in that requires anything more then the general health and
ability of the average American - that's pretty much the point. On the flying side, our demo is the GA community - that's Joe 6-er with a PPL.
The cadet leadership, especially at the unit level?  Largely parents, involved for their own cadets, or who joined for
that reason and stayed because they enjoyed it.

I just wonder what this organization would be like if the senior members were out doing drill and PT, just like in WW II.

We're already understaffed and undermanned by 30-50%, start imposing unnecessary bars to entry and you might as well close up shop
immediately.

[PHall]

Undermanned and understaffed??? By what standard?

[Eclipse]

Undermanned and understaffed??? By what standard?

20-1.

Charter minimums.

Empty shirt filter.

Common sense.

Your wing might be an anomaly, but I doubt it, and I'll bet that steak I'm owed on the ABUs that organization-wide
we are at least 30% understaffed, with most charters, including wings, having only 1/2 their
org chart properly filled with single-billeted, active, members.

Most wings are so short staffed that if you charted the full org chart from the unit up, it would look
like a Spirograph.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Heck, even in larger units a lot of times members wear 2-3 hats.

[PHall]

Now, are all of those people required by the 20-1 really needed? Or has the world and the mission changed?
A review of all of the "required" positions is way overdue.

[Eclipse]

Missed the point.

20-1 or no, we're running on fumes in of places.

[PHall]

Missed the point.

20-1 or no, we're running on fumes in of places.

Then you've said it yourself, if they don't have the minimum number of members, then close the unit.

Sounds pretty simple to me.     It's called being a realist.

[Eclipse]

Are you missing the point on purpose?

[Mitchell 1969]

I know some members of the NUC.

They often ignore input from others completely.

Can't speak for the entire board, just the few I know personally.

How do you know? Isn't that really unquantifiable?

You give an idea to a member of a committee. Your idea doesn't appear in a regulation. Does that mean, to you, that your input was totally ignored?

[SarDragon]

I note that most of the posts here refers to non-USAF style uniforms for senior members. Cadet uniforms are totally ignored. I read that CAP is down to 35,000 members, and probably 50% are cadets who get the free USAF uniforms.

Here are the most current numbers:
National Cadet Count: 24822 (as of 28 Feb 2014); National Senior Count: 34253 (as of 28 Feb 2014)

[Panache]

I just don't get it. People want to volunteer for an organization that has some pretty high performance standards and it seems all people want to do is wear uniforms.

Cool, so you're okay with giving up your AF blues and flight suit?  You can fly just fine in the a polo shirt and pair of gray pants.

Even volunteer firemen are required to adhere to physical standards and must have regular physicals.

In what part of the country?  Certainly not here.

[SunDog]

Now, are all of those people required by the 20-1 really needed? Or has the world and the mission changed?
A review of all of the "required" positions is way overdue.

FWIW,  I think you're correct. The depth of the required positions pool might make more sense for full-time units; many probably aren't necessary any longer, or shouldn't require a dedicated officer/NCO. With a bit of objective review, some of the SAS might go away.

There are folks working hard, wearing multiple hats; just not sure all that work is worth doing, or perhaps not worth doing to the level of granularity as-is.

[SunDog]

I just don't get it. People want to volunteer for an organization that has some pretty high performance standards and it seems all people want to do is wear uniforms.

Cool, so you're okay with giving up your AF blues and flight suit?  You can fly just fine in the a polo shirt and pair of gray pants.

Even volunteer firemen are required to adhere to physical standards and must have regular physicals.

In what part of the country?  Certainly not here.

I'm OK with giving them up, and I'm OK with you keeping them, too.  If NHQ got their management, vision, and leadership act together, and the only thing that remained hosed was uniforms, I'd be pretty darn happy.
Heck, short of cross dressing, or having to wear a sword when flying, I'd go along with anything, even lose my polo and wear Air Force style.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I just wonder what this organization would be like if the senior members were out doing drill and PT, just like in WW II. Oh, my gosh, that's too healthy and I'm a volunteer that you can't make me do that.

My first squadron did not have senior members doing PT, but we did drill.  One of our members was also an AFRES Staff (later Technical) Sergeant and he did a very good job of teaching.  We were at an Armed Forces Reserve facility (Navy Reserves/Sea Cadets, Marine Reserves, ArNG) and they were gracious enough to let us use their very nice drill hall.  Our first task at every meeting was assembling formation by senior/cadet flights, reporting in and drilling for about half an hour.  I think we were a better, more cohesive unit for it rather than just hanging around drinking coffee and eating doughnuts.  We also enforced C&C's (including among seniors; no first-name basis during CAP time).

Now, are all of those people required by the 20-1 really needed? Or has the world and the mission changed?
A review of all of the "required" positions is way overdue.

You are 100% right, and I have thought the same for a long time now.  However, as I have said elsewhere, I think that the entire structure of this organisation has got so calcified over the years, and too many people have a vested interest in "keeping things the way they are."

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Here are the most current numbers:
National Cadet Count: 24822 (as of 28 Feb 2014); National Senior Count: 34253 (as of 28 Feb 2014)

Well, that's definitely more than 35,000 members.

As for members wearing multiple hats, that's nothing new, and it's been that way for the three decades I've been in CAP. What makes anyone think that's a new thing?

[SarDragon]

I think he may have gotten the 35,000 from another thread that talked about adopting the olde pinks and greens. That was referring only to senior members.