Charter Issue Date = Unit Founding?

Started by a2capt, December 17, 2012, 11:03:15 AM

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Private Investigator

Re: Charter Issue Date = Unit Founding?

No. I really doubt anyone thought about the historical aspect of it then. The numbers really do not make sense either.  Just like when the CAPID numbers started out. You may have been in longer but people got a lower number than you did. 

a2capt

The CAPIDs were overlaid by geographic region when they were retroactively assigned, similar to how SSN's are issued, and then given sequentially as new members came into the system.

That's kind of what I'm wondering about the charter numbering within the specific wing. They're all over the place on many of them.

SarDragon

Quote from: a2capt on December 19, 2012, 05:05:18 PM
The CAPIDs were overlaid by geographic region when they were retroactively assigned, similar to how SSN's are issued, and then given sequentially as new members came into the system.

That's kind of what I'm wondering about the charter numbering within the specific wing. They're all over the place on many of them.

My theory is that they made a list in SSAN order, and then assigned the new numbers, starting with 100001. There is a pretty good correlation between CAPIDs and the SSAN assignment sequence.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

AdAstra

Quote from: a2capt on December 17, 2012, 11:03:15 AM
Our "original" charter recently surfaced, and is dated mid 1968, would it be a safe assumption that is the founding date of the unit, or would they be dated when it was issued?

IOW, could there be an earlier one? Does NHQ know how old a particular unit is?

You probably have the original charter, since other CAWG units founded in 1967-8 have numbers just a bit lower. CAWG/DA has a file of Forms 27 going back a number of years, but I'm not sure if it goes back to 1968. Give him a call.
Charles Wiest

wacapgh

My unit charter is dated 1971, but we have "Cadet of the Year" awards going back to the 1950's.

I think some sort of "charter reset" may have happened in 1971. The wing was chartered 46001, we were assigned 46002

RiverAux

Probably the unit was deactivated and then a new charter issued when a new unit was formed in the town, perhaps at the same location or members of the old units brought in some materials left over from that period. 

I've seen towns in my state that have had up to 5-6 different units assigned to the same town since CAP was formed. 

Private Investigator

Quote from: SarDragon on December 19, 2012, 09:17:07 PM
Quote from: a2capt on December 19, 2012, 05:05:18 PM
The CAPIDs were overlaid by geographic region when they were retroactively assigned, similar to how SSN's are issued, and then given sequentially as new members came into the system.

That's kind of what I'm wondering about the charter numbering within the specific wing. They're all over the place on many of them.

My theory is that they made a list in SSAN order, and then assigned the new numbers, starting with 100001. There is a pretty good correlation between CAPIDs and the SSAN assignment sequence.

My theory is they decided to go to the CAPID and they started at 100001 on  any membership actions starting on January 1 that year. So for example the first membership new or renewal got 100001, the next envelope they opened got 100002, etc, etc. So 100001 may have gone to the renewal of a 3 year member, 100002 went to the renewal of a 19 year member, 100003 just happen to go to a new member, 100004 went to a 32 year member, etc, etc. As paperwork went to NHQ.

With your theory would not all the lowest CAPIDs be in New England? And the highest in CA?

Private Investigator

Quote from: RiverAux on December 19, 2012, 10:18:58 PM
I've seen towns in my state that have had up to 5-6 different units assigned to the same town since CAP was formed.

The Squadron I am with now thinks they have a long history going back to WWII. But actually a Squadron 9 was there then and apprently a few others has came and gone. Anything is possible in CAP, that is why it is called, "hysterical history".   ???

SarDragon

Quote from: Private Investigator on December 20, 2012, 10:42:41 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on December 19, 2012, 09:17:07 PM
Quote from: a2capt on December 19, 2012, 05:05:18 PM
The CAPIDs were overlaid by geographic region when they were retroactively assigned, similar to how SSN's are issued, and then given sequentially as new members came into the system.

That's kind of what I'm wondering about the charter numbering within the specific wing. They're all over the place on many of them.

My theory is that they made a list in SSAN order, and then assigned the new numbers, starting with 100001. There is a pretty good correlation between CAPIDs and the SSAN assignment sequence.

My theory is they decided to go to the CAPID and they started at 100001 on  any membership actions starting on January 1 that year. So for example the first membership new or renewal got 100001, the next envelope they opened got 100002, etc, etc. So 100001 may have gone to the renewal of a 3 year member, 100002 went to the renewal of a 19 year member, 100003 just happen to go to a new member, 100004 went to a 32 year member, etc, etc. As paperwork went to NHQ.

With your theory would not all the lowest CAPIDs be in New England? And the highest in CA?

People have moved since they got their SSANs. I was living in CA at the transition, but my CAPID starts with 106.  My SSAN was issued in NJ.

I have rooted around in eServices Member search extensively, and I'm pretty certain that's how it was done. Many of the really low numbers are still in NER. The break occurs around 148xxx, and then the numbers run chronologically, starting at 149xxx. There is a gap in there.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

ßτε

Quote from: SarDragon on December 20, 2012, 12:08:49 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on December 20, 2012, 10:42:41 AM
Quote from: SarDragon on December 19, 2012, 09:17:07 PM
Quote from: a2capt on December 19, 2012, 05:05:18 PM
The CAPIDs were overlaid by geographic region when they were retroactively assigned, similar to how SSN's are issued, and then given sequentially as new members came into the system.

That's kind of what I'm wondering about the charter numbering within the specific wing. They're all over the place on many of them.

My theory is that they made a list in SSAN order, and then assigned the new numbers, starting with 100001. There is a pretty good correlation between CAPIDs and the SSAN assignment sequence.

My theory is they decided to go to the CAPID and they started at 100001 on  any membership actions starting on January 1 that year. So for example the first membership new or renewal got 100001, the next envelope they opened got 100002, etc, etc. So 100001 may have gone to the renewal of a 3 year member, 100002 went to the renewal of a 19 year member, 100003 just happen to go to a new member, 100004 went to a 32 year member, etc, etc. As paperwork went to NHQ.

With your theory would not all the lowest CAPIDs be in New England? And the highest in CA?

People have moved since they got their SSANs. I was living in CA at the transition, but my CAPID starts with 106.  My SSAN was issued in NJ.

I have rooted around in eServices Member search extensively, and I'm pretty certain that's how it was done. Many of the really low numbers are still in NER. The break occurs around 148xxx, and then the numbers run chronologically, starting at 149xxx. There is a gap in there.

I posted this earlier this year:

Quote from: ßτε on June 27, 2012, 12:56:55 AM
From what I can tell, anyone who was a member in early June 1994 was assigned a CAPID number. The lowest appears to be 100000, still in use today. It looks like they started with senior members with numbering up to 14**** and continuing with cadets to 17****, and then went sequentially starting in June 1994.

It wasn't until a few years later that NHQ started actually using the CAPID for membership cards, etc.

SarDragon

CAPIDs started showing up on membership cards in 2001.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Garibaldi

I lived through 3 sets of CAPIDS: the CAPSN I was issued in 1981 (796294), using my SSN for a CAPID (###-##-####), then the newest CAPID (115717). I was looking around on e-services one night and discovered that the first 3 numbers of the current CAPID might be related to where SSNs are issued. Since my SSN was issued in GA, my CAPID, although issued in AR, starts with 115, as do quite a few members in GA and SER.

Crap. I need to change my sig file since I am no longer in ARWG.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

SarDragon

OK, here's one older thread discussing CAPIDs. Go down to post #16, and start reading.

Another.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Garibaldi

Pah. Living through the apocalypse really messes with my head.
Still a major after all these years.
ES dude, leadership ossifer, publik affaires
Opinionated and wrong 99% of the time about all things

RogueLeader

Quote from: Garibaldi on December 21, 2012, 01:50:51 PM
Pah. Living through the apocalypse really messes with my head.

We're in an apocalypse? ???  This was NOT in our Safety Briefing.
WYWG DP

GRW 3340

MSG Mac

When we switched from SSN# to the Current CAPID the numbers probably came from CAP data base which listed people by using the Access file number
Michael P. McEleney
Lt Col CAP
MSG USA (Retired)
50 Year Member

skymaster

     In the case of Georgia Wing, the charter number date was definitely not the unit founding date, as quite a few of our units existed before there was a national CAP organisation. From information in the State Archives, it is known that Georgia Wing began as the Air Division of the Georgia State Defense Corps. The Georgia Defense Corps was originally organised in 1940 as an armed, uniformed, state-level state militia under the name of the State Defense Corps by authority of Federal Act ML 1939, Sec. 1323, as amended by Act of Oct. 21, 1940 (Sec. 1, Bill No. 36, WD 1940), established as a home guard and state constabulary, initially under the Georgia Department of Public Safety, but under command of the Adjutant General of Georgia. It was later changed to Georgia State Defense Corps by proclamation of Governor Eugene Talmadge on April 16, 1941, and organized effective on that day into in three state military divisions: the State Guard Units; the Georgia Military Police, and the Air Patrol Service. These armed, state-level military units were established to help defend the state in the absence of the regular Federally-recognised National Guard, since the entire Georgia National Guard had been federalised on orders of President Roosevelt months earlier. To fulfill their role in the defense of Georgia, State Defense Corps' units were placed at vital points, including all waterworks, power plants, and big power dams, as well as all railroad bridges, airports and broadcasting stations in Georgia. The Governor appointed Colonel Ryburn G. Clay as commander of the GSDC, and Lt. Col. Winship Nunnally as commander of the Air Division of the GSDC. As the Air Division of the GSDC, this Air Patrol unit was responsible for performing air missions for the State of Georgia, in place of the absent Georgia National Guard air units. The GSDC Air Division/Air Patrol was called to duty effective 1 December 1941 by General J.F. Curry as a unit of the new national Civil Air Patrol organisation, 9 days before the GSDC ground units were called to duty under Brigadier General Omar Bradley, and LTC Nunnally continued as the GAWG Commander through the war years.   Here is a photo, (supplied by CAP historian LTC Mark Hess) taken in the summer of 1941 at Atlanta Squadron No. 1 HQ - Major L. G. Mason, the Atlanta 1 Squadron Commander, Georgia Wing CAP (GA State Guard Air Division) is shown here with members of his staff, planning aerial demonstration flights for an airshow in Florida.



     This particular unit still exists, as SER-GA-003, Atlanta Senior Squadron 1, as a squadron under Group I of Georgia Wing. Also, here is a photo (courtesy of the Georgia Secretary of State) of the WW2 unit flag of the 2nd Atlanta Squadron, Civil Air Patrol, that is part of the Georgia State Capitol Collection of historic state military unit flags from across Georgia's long history. This unit also still exists, as SER-GA-023, Atlanta Senior Squadron 2, as a squadron under Group 3 of Georgia Wing.



     If the dates listed on the charter were the proof of the founding date of the units in question, then one might think that those units did not exist until the early 1950s. This is clearly not the case, as there are many CAP units around the country that date back to WW2, and in some cases, prior to the establishment of the national Civil Air Patrol organisation.


ol'fido

Lt. Col. Randy L. Mitchell
Historian, Group 1, IL-006

BuckeyeDEJ

I didn't know there was any real rhyme or reason to the issuance of charter numbers. Before the use of region and wing abbreviations in charter numbers (for instance, MER-WV-081 or GLR-OH-278), there were five-digit numbers, the first two being the wing number in alphabetical order (for instance, 47081 was in West Virginia, and 34278 in Ohio).

The "new" scheme is a mouthful, and in my opinion (and just my opinion), it doesn't really need to be more than, say, OH-278. We all know what region Ohio Wing is in.

Seems to me the charter number is assigned at wing level for a new unit, and can be whatever the Powers That Be in a wing decide. Correct?

Also, Garibaldi: My CAPID begins with 113, and I was in West Virginia Wing when we converted from the SSN to the six-digit scheme. I don't think CAPIDs were issued with geography in mind, especially when I see newer members with numbers starting with 4s and 5s. Just looks like we're going sequentially from a certain point. I'm finding my CAPID is usually the lowest number anywhere I go.


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

RiverAux

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on December 25, 2012, 04:54:54 AM
Seems to me the charter number is assigned at wing level for a new unit, and can be whatever the Powers That Be in a wing decide. Correct?
I think it is actually assigned by national but I know that they will honor a Wing CC's request for a specific charter number to be issued to a new or reactivated unit.