Started by James Shaw, April 23, 2011, 10:52:50 PM
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Quote from: USAFaux2004 on April 24, 2011, 03:43:28 AMSo...someone finds a model RC and calls it a UFO and it gets investigated?
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on April 24, 2011, 03:55:34 AMQuote from: USAFaux2004 on April 24, 2011, 03:43:28 AMSo...someone finds a model RC and calls it a UFO and it gets investigated?Did they have RC airplanes in the late 40's?
Quote from: SarDragon on February 21, 2012, 04:03:43 AMI'm not aware of any modern UFU or Bigfoot pictures, particularly in this century.
QuoteSo let's get to the conspiracy theory about unidentified flying objects. First of all, you point out that, for instance, the Oxcart that was being tested in Area 51 was so fast and so unusual-looking for its time that anybody seeing that would think oh, it's a UFO. And there were other vehicles being tested at Area 51 people might think was a UFO. So that's part of where you think this conspiracy theory comes from about covering up UFOs. Yes?Ms. JACOBSEN: Absolutely. And there is lots of documentation in the CIA archives that support this idea, going back to its second director, General Walter Bedell Smith, who himself was obsessed with UFO - what he called UFO hysteria in the nation and he felt that it was a threat to national security because people's susceptibility to hysteria could make the nation's early air defense warning system vulnerable to what he felt was a real Soviet attack. And he actually believed that that was a strategy that the Soviet Union had in play in the mid-1950s.GROSS: Now there was an unidentified flying object that crash landed in Roswell, New Mexico in 1947 and the remains were brought back to Area 51 for investigation in 1951. And I think that you believe that this crash landing is really central to the whole UFO conspiracy theory that is so popular in America. And Roswell figures very heavily into that conspiracy theory, that it was all covered up. So what can you tell us about this unidentified flying object that did not come from outer space - that was not created and flown by aliens?Ms. JACOBSEN: Well, Terry, this is the end of my book and it's obviously controversial and shocking at the same time.GROSS: Let's start before the most controversial shocking stuff. And let's get to the Horten brothers who are believed to have designed this flying object. Who were they?Ms. JACOBSEN: The UFO craze began in America in the summer of 1947. And several months later, the G2 intelligence, which was the Army Intelligence Corps at the time, spent an enormous amount of time and treasure seeking out two former Third Reich aerospace designers named Walter and Reimar Horten who had allegedly created this flying disc. And these are all documents that are declassified by the Defense Intelligence Agency now, and they're part of a program that was called Operation Harass. It's a 300-page file which shows that these American intelligence agents fanned out across Europe seeking the Horten brothers to find out if, in fact, they had made this flying disc.GROSS: So what did you learn about what the purpose of this flying disc, that is believed to be created by the Horten brothers, was?Ms. JACOBSEN: Well, the government was obviously concerned that they had created a flying disc. And if you go to the National Archives, you can see some photographs of the Horten brothers' airplanes that, some of which the U.S. government confiscated and some of which they just confiscated the photographs. And you see that as early as the - 1942, the Horten brothers were working with kind of like parabolic-shaped flying craft. So they had gotten three quarters of a circle.One of the German scientists described it as a cake with a slice cut out of it. And obviously the government was concerned that the Horten brothers had made a flying disc and that that could possibly account for some of the sightings of these flying discs which were being seen by thousands of Americans in the 1940s - late 1940s and early '50s and were causing kind of hysteria/panic.GROSS: And this flying disc could hover. It wasn't always in motion, which was considered quite a technological breakthrough. Do you think that these discs were intended to ultimately be used for spying and surveillance?Ms. JACOBSEN: Well, there's what I think and then there's what my source told me. And I think it's important, as I write in the book, to differentiate between that. I very clearly make a decision to tell you what the source told me. And in the epilogue of my book I offer some of what I think may have happened. But I do also want to clarify that nowhere in any government documentation that I came across has the government ever discussed this hover-and-fly technology in a declassified manner.And that is what makes my source's allegations controversial, because according to him, one of these flying saucers did come over into the United States, it did crash, he worked as one of the five engineers who reverse engineered it, and according to him, it did have the hover-and-fly technology and we have had that hover-and-fly technology all along.GROSS: So are the Horten brothers and their flying disc, is that all classified or is that, any of that unclassified? Just trying to get a sense of how much of this is from sources and how much of this you were able to read in official documents.Ms. JACOBSEN: In official documents there's a lot of information about the Horten brothers, their flying crafts. They were best known for being the inventors of the flying wing. And there is some information about their parabolic-shaped airplanes. What is separate and what is new to the reporting that I do in the book is that the Horten brothers were involved in the flying disc that crashed in New Mexico.GROSS: Okay. And that's from sources.Ms. JACOBSEN: That is from a source.GROSS: From a source.My guest is Annie Jacobsen, author of the new book "Area 51."We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.(Soundbite of music)GROSS: My guest is Annie Jacobsen, author of the new book "Area 51," about the secret military research facility located within the Nevada Test and Training Range. The book is based in part on interviews with people who worked at Area 51. The base's secrecy has made it fertile ground for conspiracy theories. When we left off, we were talking about the conspiracy theory alleging a cover-up of a UFO that crash-landed in Roswell, New Mexico. One of her sources told her that a flying disc did crash at Roswell in 1947, but it wasn't an alien spaceship. The military believed the flying disc was created by two German aerospace engineers, Reimar and Walter Horten.Now this source that you have told you some amazing things that are kind of hard to believe, and I don't know what to make of it, honestly. So, the most extraordinary stuff I think that he told you has to do with who was in this flying disc. So tell us what he told you.Ms. JACOBSEN: Well, I want to back up for one moment, and just speak about my sources, because it's important that I distinguish the fact that all of the sources came to me from one another. Everyone came by referral. They are part of a formerly secret group of scientists, engineers and physicists who were out in the desert working on these various projects. And they all had different levels of need to know on different projects, so what one knew the other did not know. And out of all of the sources, as I write in the book, they would often say to me, I can't discuss that. That's classified.And I had this unusual, extraordinary moment when one of the sources began to become very upset and told me some things that were stunning, and this is what you're talking about in the end of the book that's almost impossible to believe at first read. And that is that a flying disc really did crash in New Mexico. And that it was transported to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, and then in 1951 it was transferred to Area 51, which is why the base is called Area 51. And the stunning part about this reveal was that my source, who I absolutely believe and worked with for 18 months on this, was one of the engineers who received the equipment - he refers to it as equipment - and he also received the people who were in the craft. And so...GROSS: Do you mean the remains of the people in the craft?Ms. JACOBSEN: The people were - according to the source - the people in the craft who were child-sized pilots, and there's a lot of debate about how old they were. He believes that they were 13, although other people believe that they may have been older. But this is a firsthand witness to this and, you know, I made a decision to write about this in book at the very end of the book, after I take the traditional journalist form of telling you everything, all the stories in the third person, I switch and I kind of lean in to the reader and I say, look, this is not why Area 51 is classified to the point where no one in the government will admit it exists. The reason is, because of what one man told me. And then using the first person, I tell you what I was told. And there is no doubt that people are going to be upset, alarmed and skeptical of this information, but I absolutely believe the veracity of my source, and I believe that it was important that I put this information out there as relayed to me by him, because it is the tip of a very big iceberg.And what he says is that the child-sized aviators in this craft were the result of a Soviet human experimentation program, and they had been made to look like aliens a la Orson Welles' "War of the Worlds."GROSS: So if your source is right and if there were human beings engineered to look like aliens within this aircraft that crash-landed at Roswell, what was the point? Why would the Russians want to send a vehicle with humans engineered to look like space aliens?Ms. JACOBSEN: When the Orson Welles radio broadcast "The War of the Worlds" aired in 1938, people on the East Coast actually took actions based on their belief that Martians had landed in New Jersey and were attacking. And this fascinated the American military - I source all this in my book - and led to a lot of behind-the-scenes thinking about what it meant that American citizens could be so moved by something that was fictional - that was science fiction. And across the pond, Hitler also paid attention to "The War of the Worlds." He referenced it in a speech. And according to my source, Stalin also paid attention to "The War of the Worlds" and was fascinated by American susceptibility toward science fiction. And so his plan, according to my source, was to create panic in the United States with this belief that a UFO had landed with aliens inside of it.And Terry, one of the most interesting documents that I encourage people to look at is the second CIA director, General Walter Bedell Smith, memos back and forth to the National Security Council in the early '50s, talking about how the fear is that the Soviets could make a hoax against America, involving a UFO, and overload our early air defense warning system, making America vulnerable to an attack. My read of General Walter Bedell Smith's documents are that it was actually another hoax.GROSS: So the goal was to just - make it seem like there really were UFOs? Is that what you're saying?Ms. JACOBSEN: Yes. That is according to the source.GROSS: Okay, now here's something in the story that makes no sense to me. What you write is that the 13-year-old, or older, pilots...(Soundbite of music)GROSS: Okay, now here's something in the story that makes no sense to me. What you write is that the 13-year-old or older pilots who were basically genetically designed to look like children - to not really grow, and to look like aliens - that this was part of an experiment by the Nazi Dr. Josef Mengele, and Stalin made a deal with him after the war that Mengele could continue to work on eugenics programs, on his crazy human experiments, but do it for the Soviet Union. Now, since this takes place in 1947, how would Mengele have had time to create even a 13-year-old? That would go back to 1934, that he would have had started working on this in 1934.Ms. JACOBSEN: Well, I would beg to differ on that, because I - and the reason that I say genetically/surgically altered is because my source is unclear, because remember that's secondhand information to him. What is firsthand information is that he worked with these bodies, and he was an eyewitness to the horror of seeing them and working with them. Where they actually came from is obviously the subject of debate. But if you look at the timeline with Mengele, he left Auschwitz in January of 1945 and disappeared for a while. And the suggestion by the source is that Mengele had already sort of cut his losses with the Third Reich at that point and was working with Stalin.GROSS: Mm-hmm. So you're saying that these children were surgically altered.Ms. JACOBSEN: I am repeating what the source told me is that...GROSS: Right. That he's saying. I'm sorry. He's saying that they were surgically altered.Ms. JACOBSEN: Yeah. Or genetically. It's unclear. What he is absolutely clear about is that the iconic images that we have now of aliens with the big head and the nose and the eyes, that is actually what the child-size pilots looked like. And what I asked my source over and over again, where my skepticism came in was, why, originally in 1947, when this craft supposedly crashed with these grotesque humans in it, why on earth didn't President Truman hold a press conference to show what a horrible, evil, abhorrent man Joseph Stalin was, to be working with Dr. Mengele?And the source's answer - which took a very long time - was ultimately: because we decided to do the same thing. And that the head of the program - who my source says was a man named Vannevar Bush, who had also been in charge of the Manhattan Project, decided that it was important to figure out what the Soviets had done. And so we began our own rogue program with human experiments. And this, says the source, is why it's all secret.
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on February 22, 2012, 08:18:39 PMSorry for the long post. I wanted to put the whole part that is pertinent Roswell crash:http://www.npr.org/templates/transcript/transcript.php?storyId=136356848
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on February 22, 2012, 09:40:57 PMRuling people incorrect because they pronouce something incorrectly doesn't automatically make them incorrect. I don't know about the credibility of the author, I just remembered it from the radio...
Quote from: Spaceman3750 on February 21, 2012, 03:41:47 AMWhy is it, in this age of 8mp/1080p cameras on cell phones and night vision being available to anyone with cash that the only UFO and Bigfoot photos are blurry, grainy, and impossible to make sense of? :angel:
Quote from: Extremepredjudice on March 13, 2012, 02:57:40 AMOk so we have this secret building that no one can go into, who cleans it, who maintains it, and who moves these large (I am assuming some items are pretty big) items into it? Maybe find those people and asking them.
Quote from: SarDragon on March 13, 2012, 03:36:44 AMQuote from: Extremepredjudice on March 13, 2012, 02:57:40 AMOk so we have this secret building that no one can go into, who cleans it, who maintains it, and who moves these large (I am assuming some items are pretty big) items into it? Maybe find those people and asking them.Maybe you ought to look up security clearance, and see what all having one entails. Asking these people questions isn't as simple as you're making it.
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