Searching for authoritative source

[Smithsonia]

The German Submarine Commander's quote about those "[darn] Yellow/Red Planes" has come up again. I have looked for an authoritative source for this quote. Flying Minute Men and Maine to Mexico don't count as these are not sourced. For instance, Karl Doentiz is supposed to have uttered those words at his War Crimes trial. You can read his testimony at the address below.

The other person who is supposed to have said it is a U-Boat Captain (Haegen/Haddegean/etc). That quote comes from a Chicago Tribune article in 1956. 1)I've never been able to find the quote/article. 2) If it comes from 1956 it is likely a shadowed or echo quote from the '48 edition of Flying Minute Men. 3) Being that the sources float through time - being that the quote has various sources and names attached to the utterance - being that the color of the plane goes from yellow to red when most likely they were blue planes - I am thinking this wonderful quote is lost in time and unconfirmed.

International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg

IMT Testimony of Karl Doenitz

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=23948

So I remain curious and unsatisfied on this matter. Any solid authentication is appreciated.

[Smithsonia]

You can find the justification of the Red/Yellow Planes quote here:

http://history.nhq.cap.gov/from_the_cap_historical_research.htm

You will also see former National CC Earle Johnson was told by Grand Admiral Karl Doenitz (in Germany) and an unnamed U-boat Captain in a POW camp in Stuart Florida...
the exact same word for word quote. Earle Johnson reported these utterances. Many people heard Earle recount these utterances first hand.
The trouble is that Earle never wrote it down and therefore signed his name to it. It seems more like an anecdote that was used over and over and now has no validity except as
a quote from Earle Johnson.

Meaning; "National Commander Earle Johnson often cited a conversation he had with both Nazi Grand Admiral Karl Doenitz and an unnamed POW U-Boat Captain in which they both said exactly "Those {darn} red and yellow planes."


I am not being critical of our former National Commander... just trying to get to the bottom of one of those history-mysteries.
Also thanks to Mark Hess and TEAMCAP

[JohnKachenmeister]

Ed:

I cannot verify the statement, but...

When you note that CAP planes only flew armed patrols for a total of 4 months before it was discovered that Doenitz had ordered all U-boats to remain 150 miles offshore to stay out of light plane range, it does tend to give some credence that CAP was a decisive force in the Coastal Campaign.

If I recall correctly, Arnold ordered the CAP to be armed in February of 1942.  By May of 1942, CAP ended the coastal patrol because the Germans had withdrawn.  I wonder how long patrols went on after the actual withdrawal before the lack of enemy contact made the fact of a German withdrawal obvious.

In those four months, or about 120 days, there were 73 attacks on submarines.  That averages out to an attack every 1.6 days.  It is likely that those 73 attacks took place during the first 90 days of the armed coastal patrol, assuming that 30 days without contact was needed to confirm the fact of the German withdrawal.  Working from the assumption that the Germans withdrew sometime in April of 1942, the average changes to an attack every 1.2 days.

This means that Doenitz would have been, beginning in February 1942, confronted with reports of private plane attacks almost on a daily basis.  This undoubtedly increased the intensity and operational tempo for U-boat operations off the US coast, making it imperative that he withdraw his force from the area.

Whether CAP sank one, two, or zero submarines is immaterial.  The fact of CAP increasing the number of attacks on submarines forced Doenitz to withdraw, and CAP can justifiably claim to be the first irregular military force to engage and defeat a foreign enemy since the War of 1812. 

[Smithsonia]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Kach;
I am not questioning that Doenitz spoke the small plane quote, or we did the work, deserve credit, or that we won the Submarine war in WW2. I am questioning how we write and use the darned small planes quote. Using the information as we have it now... the true and proper quote needs to identify or acknowledge the lack of authentication not the substantiation that Earle Johnson said it. So it would look like the following:

"Former National Commander Earle Johnson reported that a Nazi Captain said, (darn plane quote) " "Earle Johnson loved to tell the story that a UBoat Captain once told him (darn plane quote)" "A story that Earle Johnson used to tell is that Grand Admiral Karl Doenitz once told him (small plane quote)

In other words. The small plane quote (as it stands now) is not a fact it is something Earle Johnson often said. It comes to us today as Hearsay. Although it may have been a fact for Earle. Being that Earle is gone we now must remove a layer of  the quotes authentication.

While I know this sound small and chippy to some... it is a big deal in authenticating CAP history.

[NCRblues]

Civil Air Patrol can also claim the right as a force multiplier, or even a psychological warfare victory.

Uboat crews were infamous for there superstition and rumor mill grinding.

During research i found several wartime journals that were from German uboat crewmembers and even a few officers. In these were mentioned not only the fear of the US navy patrols, but also of "small planes armed with bombs and a zeal to hunt us down".

Now even if they are not speaking of CAP aircraft, any uboat crewmember hearing these stories would of course multiply them over and over again. Eventually you get to the point of the quote which we are now trying to find out.

Even one story of a small aircraft, armed and chasing a boat, told in a port where hundreds if not thousands of sailors R&R would be a rumor that no good sailor or commander could ignore. They would have to pay attention.

Admirals and ships captains were not above the superstition and story telling, lets be honest, they are just older sailors.

The person behind the quote may be lost to history, but the quote itself has taken on its own history. Lets celebrate it!

[RiverAux]

I believe that extensive interviews were done with surviving German commanders after the war that were collected in some form.  I don't think they were published, but I would suspect that you could find leads towards relevant interviews in some of the general histories of the WWII uboat campaigns.  Perhaps the quote could be found in those.

If it really is something that came from a personal conversation between Johnson and Doernitz, I wouldn't hold out much hope of finding it.  But, perhaps you could find documentation of instances where they met to at least show that such a conversation might have taken place.  The time frame for such a meeting would have had to been pretty small for it to make it into Flying Minutemen (was it in that one?  I don't have my copy handy).   

[Smithsonia]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
River;
I have not used the quote in my work, except as an unverified anecdote . I use it and state "it has been reported." Unfortunately, I use the same language on Ghost, UFO, and big foot stories too. It provides a great deal of scholastic latitude. 

Which is why I was asking for authentication. If I found authentication I could tell a much better story.

It is a great quote. I hope it is true. I wish it were true. I have no idea if it is. I am asking for authentication from those that have used it in their work as an attributable fact.

In this way History is like the Scientific method. Your research must be repeatable by peers. So it isn't up to me to find the quote. It is up to me to ask for validation of the quote. It is up to me to ask others, who use the quote as fact "where's that come from?" If they can't come up with a root source, authenticating contemporary source, or at minimum a story written by and therefore attributable to Earle Johnson - Use the anecdotal form of that story. Use "it is said that Earle Johnson was told by...." Leave it as a harmless piece of historical color.

I didn't set up the rules of authentication. I just use them where needed. Teach these to be used for clarity. To know the difference when noticed. AND, to point it out to others where it occurs. Once again, I am not cynical about this story. Just professionally skeptical... which is why "they pay me the big CAP deputy wing historian bucks." Which in my case is used as an informal quip and likely dismissed as less than fact but more hyperbole.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Ed:

I also remember reading, I think on a CAP site somewhere, the German radio in 1944 attributed the failure of the Coastal Campaign to "The sudden appearance of armed private planes."  That might be easier to verify.

[AbnMedOps]

You might check with Sharkhunters, a U-boat historical organization. Unfortunately, I don't think their archive of journals is computer searchable, or if they have any plans in that regard. They have a lot of interviews and memoirs, etc., and are in contact with many surviving U-boat crew members. Someone might have a lead..

[AirDX]

I'm going to ask what I hope is an obvious question: have you research the holdings of the National Archives?  A search for "German U-Boat" turned up a number of record series that I would think might provide some answers, among them:

1 Interrogation Reports, compiled 1941 - 1945
ARC Identifier 1018232 / MLR Number UD 37
Textual Records from the Department of the Navy. Office of the Chief of Naval Operations. Intelligence Division. (1922 - 09/29/1945)
Archives II Reference Section (Military), Textual Archives Services Division, College Park, MD
Series from Record Group 38: Records of the Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, 1875 - 2006

2 Correspondence and Subject Files, compiled 1942 - 1945
ARC Identifier 874207 / MLR Number A1 349
Maps and Charts and Textual Records from the Department of the Navy. U.S. Fleet. Readiness Section. Anti-Submarine Warfare Division. (06/12/1945 - 10/1945)
Archives II Reference Section (Military), Textual Archives Services Division, College Park, MD
Series from Record Group 38: Records of the Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, 1875 - 2006

3 Interrogations From German U-Boat and Raider Survivors , compiled 1941 - 1945
ARC Identifier 1011705 / MLR Number UD 38
Photographs and other Graphic Materials and Textual Records from the Department of the Navy. Office of the Chief of Naval Operations. Intelligence Division. (1922 - 09/29/1945)
Archives II Reference Section (Military), Textual Archives Services Division, College Park, MD
Series from Record Group 38: Records of the Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, 1875 - 2006

4 Reports Relating to Prisoner of War Interrogations, compiled 1943 - 1945
ARC Identifier 2790598 / MLR Number P 179C
Textual Records from the War Department. Military Intelligence Division. Military Intelligence Service. Intelligence Group. Captured Personnel and Materiel Branch (06/1944 - ca. 1946)
Archives II Reference Section (Military), Textual Archives Services Division, College Park, MD
Series from Record Group 165: Records of the War Department General and Special Staffs, 1860 - 1952

5 Select Intelligence Records Relating to Germany and Japan , compiled ca. 1935 - 1947, documenting the period 1909 - 1947
ARC Identifier 2843215 / MLR Number P 7
Maps and Charts, Photographs and other Graphic Materials and Textual Records from the Department of the Navy. Naval Security Group. (03/11/1935 - 09/18/1947)
Archives II Reference Section (Military), Textual Archives Services Division, College Park, MD
Series from Record Group 38: Records of the Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, 1875 - 2006

6 Intercepted Enemy Radio Traffic and Related Documentation, compiled 1935 - 1946
ARC Identifier 1165120 / MLR Number A1 344
Textual Records from the Department of the Navy. Office of the Chief of Naval Operations. Division of Naval Communications. Communications Intelligence Organization (Op-20-G). (10/1942 - 07/1946)
Archives II Reference Section (Military), Textual Archives Services Division, College Park, MD
Series from Record Group 38: Records of the Office of the Chief of Naval Operations, 1875 - 2006

We are talking about material that is measured in linear feet of shelf space, but we are talking primary material here, not hearsay.

I did research in the Archives back in the 90s, and it's easy to get lost in there for days and days.  Reviewing all this material for one nugget of CAP gold would take a long time, but it's what may be necessary to bring this research to fruition.

[JohnKachenmeister]

One would think those records would be on microfiche.  Yes, you can get lost there.

What MAY be revealed is that "Das verdamt kleine rot und geld Flugzeugen" might be a common expression among U-boat crewmen and officers, which would explain why it is sometimes attributed to multiple sources.

[Smithsonia]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gentlemen;
For me - This isn't a research project - it is an authentication project. I am not looking to research another phantom source. I am looking for verification of those who use this quote as if there is a primary source. So far we haven't come up with any authentication from a verified authoritative source. (I have listed the acceptable authoritative sources in several postings above.)

Normally I look for research material and your responses would be fine in such a case. However, in this matter and as I described it -  I am judging the work of another historian, researcher and writer. Sourcing on this one is thin to non-existent. As such it must be informally written as color and not presented as a hard fact.

[RiverAux]

I think what you're hearing from the rest of us and what you've found from your own research is that there does not appear to be any previously published historical research that attributes this quote to a specific source that you can then use in your own work.  If anyone wants to use this quote they're probably going to have to do the research to find it, if it exists at all.

If I were to use this quote at all (doubtful), I might say something like, "The impact of CAP's antisubmarine operations may be judged by this apocryphal quote...."

[AirDX]

One would think those records would be on microfiche.  Yes, you can get lost there.

According to the entries in the NARA catalog, they are paper - noted as "44 boxes, 19 linear feet" etc.  There's a lot of stuff on fiche or microfilm reels, but the actual paper for most is still retained.

[AirDX]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gentlemen;
For me - This isn't a research project - it is an authentication project. I am not looking to research another phantom source. I am looking for verification of those who use this quote as if there is a primary source. So far we haven't come up with any authentication from a verified authoritative source. (I have listed the acceptable authoritative sources in several postings above.)

Normally I look for research material and your responses would be fine in such a case. However, in this matter and as I described it -  I am judging the work of another historian, researcher and writer. Sourcing on this one is thin to non-existent. As such it must be informally written as color and not presented as a hard fact.

The only way to authenticate the original work though, is to go back to the primary source.  If no one has cited a source, beyond, "I was hanging with Adm. Doenitz one night, and he told me..." then to me it's suspect.

I wonder how many of the post-war interviewees had direct knowledge of the situation off the US Atlantic coast in early 1942 - 3 in 4 U-Boat crewmen died during the war, how many would have survived from that period?

[davidsinn]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Gentlemen;
For me - This isn't a research project - it is an authentication project. I am not looking to research another phantom source. I am looking for verification of those who use this quote as if there is a primary source. So far we haven't come up with any authentication from a verified authoritative source. (I have listed the acceptable authoritative sources in several postings above.)

Normally I look for research material and your responses would be fine in such a case. However, in this matter and as I described it -  I am judging the work of another historian, researcher and writer. Sourcing on this one is thin to non-existent. As such it must be informally written as color and not presented as a hard fact.

The only way to authenticate the original work though, is to go back to the primary source.  If no one has cited a source, beyond, "I was hanging with Adm. Doenitz one night, and he told me..." then to me it's suspect.

I wonder how many of the post-war interviewees had direct knowledge of the situation off the US Atlantic coast in early 1942 - 3 in 4 U-Boat crewmen died during the war, how many would have survived from that period?

Doenitz was a micromanager and kept in constant contact with his boats so word would have gotten back to him about what was going on.

[AirDX]

Doenitz was a micromanager and kept in constant contact with his boats so word would have gotten back to him about what was going on.

Got a copy of his memoirs around here somewhere... time to pull it out and reread, I guess.  Interesting topic.

[davidsinn]

Doenitz was a micromanager and kept in constant contact with his boats so word would have gotten back to him about what was going on.

Got a copy of his memoirs around here somewhere... time to pull it out and reread, I guess.  Interesting topic.

It's one of the ways we were able to kill UBoats so well. They were constantly chattering on HF. Look up HuffDuff or HFDF. We would use DF stations around the North Atlantic to triangulate on a boat and then send a jeep carrier in to grease him. A good book by the name of "Hunter-Killer" describes escort carrier ops and how they used DF to kill Nazi boats.

[Major Lord]

I understand your frustration. It seems like many of our alleged "kills" were unproven, disproven,  or unsubstantiated, even with highly trained Munchkins flying missions. I had a similar experience when I tried to discover CAP's lawful authority for carrying out war against enemy submarines. ( As near as I can tell, we just gunned-up and went hunting for Jerry-those were the good old days) I suspect there is a big file of lost things in a dark corner of Maxwell Alabama. Inside you will find the our documented kills, B.H.O.'s Birth certificate and the Alien autopsy photos from Roswell ( Which we shot down in a secret air to air engagement, but never got the credit!)

Major Lord

[Smithsonia]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Maj Lord;
CAP National may have all the records... however, they haven't published or even responded to formal requests for validation.  Unfortunately the term "May" when delivered in perpetuity - is the same as a "NO" so we don't have a validation. Obscuring accounts is not the same as a misunderstanding or confusion. It is intellectual fraud.

Meaning we must become more direct and scholarly (or circumspect) in our writings. I can understand how a sinking of a sub may be wrong on the date or place. The proper term is "CAP is credited with..."

That is true and can be validated. The Navy validates or credits all sorts of people with all sorts of things from Pilots, Submarines, to oil, bullets, and beans. "Credits" works - it is a firm attribution
of what organization accepted what numbers and on which occasion. We do the same thing when we "credit" a commander with a good encampment, even though lots of people worked to make the encampment a success. The word "CREDIT"  works.

That is NOT the case with the "darn little planes" quote. The attribution is conveniently loose and the attribution should be loose too. The date is lost and so is the true source.

In history you can still use this quote. However, the attribution must remain equally loose. "Former National Commander Earle Johnson used to claim that he was told by Former Nazi U-Boat Grand Admiral Doenitz that his German Subs were chased from US coastal waters in '43 because of those "darn" Yellow and Red Planes." That is a loose and unsatisfying story but more true than not.

In other words the quote must be stated as twice removed from authentication... Johnson was told by Doenitz and Johnson reported it many times if informally to others."

So much of the supposed history of CAP is fouled up in the same way. Simply put, Neprud and National did a less than acceptable job at verification/authentication. I spend more time trying to figure out why the authentication is sloppy than I do in actual New Research. In this way CAP historians are hampered by either poor record keeping or just plain scuttlebutt and rumor infection of research.

We do this "crediting instead of validation" for the Bible. "In the Bible it says..." "In the New TESTAMENT, it states... etc, etc." We don't commonly state that God/Moses/or Jesus told me, so and so... I suggest that we start stepping away from Neprud and Flying Minute Men.

If you are serious about CAP history you must be serious about this issue too.

We've had this problem now become nearly routine. I've spent hundreds of hours attempting to validate various names, dates, places, etc. I have personally found so very many discrepancies between the contemporary sources and the accounts in Maine to Mexico and Flying Minute Men that I trust neither as a source.

I think both books are worth reading. However, if I were you I would authenticate the sources by using newspaper coverage of the time before I'd sign my name to it. I can only assign my reputation to the places where I firmly believe the facts are in evidence.