I had the opportunity to attend the last Summer National Board in Atlanta.  In his presentation, the commander of CAP-USAF (name escapes me - senior moment) mentioned that HQs CAP-USAF has a battle streamer for CAP's involvement in WW2, flying anti sub missions.

I was kinda shocked - since the USAAF didn't fly those missions and CAP did, why don't CAP regions and wings that actually participated in those operations have battle credit and streamers on their unit colors instead?

What do you think?

GC

I think it goes to the highest HQ involved, and not the subordinate units. The UCA is like that - CAWG, as an entire wing, got one, and the streamer went on the wing flag.

YMMV.

Quote from: SarDragon on March 18, 2008, 05:25:50 AM
I think it goes to the highest HQ involved, and not the subordinate units. The UCA is like that - CAWG, as an entire wing, got one, and the streamer went on the wing flag.

YMMV.

Battle steamers are awarded to each field grade (in our case squadron) or higher unit that participates in the operation.

Is that AF policy, or Army policy? Or are they the same?

Anyway, thanks for the update.

There wasn't an AF at the time. I'm not really sure how things were organized during the war, if there were regions or if the wings were broken down like they are now. It's not exactly an operationally effective system. I would think involved units could attach a streamer though.

Quote from: DNall on March 18, 2008, 06:41:04 AM
There wasn't an AF at the time. I'm not really sure how things were organized during the war, if there were regions or if the wings were broken down like they are now. It's not exactly an operationally effective system. I would think involved units could attach a streamer though.

Good question.  Historians?  Any help here? Were there wings/regions at that time?

I definetely don't think it would be appropriate for CAP-USAF to have one.  However, keep in mind that these missions were flown by specific patrol bases.  I'm not sure exactly sure where those bases were in the command structure, but I'm reasonably sure that they were not under the control of the Wings where they were based. 

But, under the theory that if an Army unit was eligible for a streamer then the "Army" was as well, then CAP NHQ could probably claim one.  However, it would probably depend on what the criteria are for award of such streamers and I sort of doubt there is an allowance for issuing them to a civilian organization. 

Incidentally, exactly what campaign streamer would this be? 

I would think it would be the WWII American Campaign streamer.

CAP as an organization was probably awarded a battle streamer for the American Defense Campaign.  The question would then be, who holds the lineage and honors of the subordinate units in the Anti-Submarine Campaign?  Obviously, the patrol bases no longer exist, but in some cases there may be a unit still meeting at the airfield which was a base.  Also, if the bases were never recognized as separate colors-bearing units, there would have never been any unit to award the streamer to.

My guess is that CAP as a whole was recognized, and should display the streamer on the National Headquarters color.  I doubt that individual participating bases were recognized, due to the nature of our organization.

But that brings up another point discussed earlier.

If CAP was awarded a battle streamer for Anti-Sub patrol, each person participating during the period of the award would be entitled to wear the American Defense Service Medal.  That means they would be entitled to VFW membership and veteran status.

Interesting.

Quote from: RiverAux on March 18, 2008, 10:06:04 PM
I definetely don't think it would be appropriate for CAP-USAF to have one.  However, keep in mind that these missions were flown by specific patrol bases.  I'm not sure exactly sure where those bases were in the command structure, but I'm reasonably sure that they were not under the control of the Wings where they were based. 

But, under the theory that if an Army unit was eligible for a streamer then the "Army" was as well, then CAP NHQ could probably claim one.  However, it would probably depend on what the criteria are for award of such streamers and I sort of doubt there is an allowance for issuing them to a civilian organization. 

Incidentally, exactly what campaign streamer would this be? 

I don't necessarily disagree with HQs CAP-USAF having the streamer, but I'm thinking that the wings involved (NJ, DE, VA, NC, TX, et al) should be honored as well.  The people flying the missions were official belligerents in war, they were flying as a combatant auxiliary of the USAAF, they engaged the enemy and suffered losses.  I'm thinking that the squadrons, groups, wings, (and possibly) regions should receive the same honorifics that a headquarters that didn't even exist receives.  If it was good enough to award air medals to the participants, then CAP should be awarded campaign credit.  CAP did what the army couldn't - that's an historic fact.

GC

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 18, 2008, 10:49:50 PM
CAP as an organization was probably awarded a battle streamer for the American Defense Campaign.  The question would then be, who holds the lineage and honors of the subordinate units in the Anti-Submarine Campaign? 

That would be an interesting project for the command historian.

QuoteMy guess is that CAP as a whole was recognized, and should display the streamer on the National Headquarters color.  I doubt that individual participating bases were recognized, due to the nature of our organization.

Then the streamer should be on the CAP national colors, not the CAP-USAF colors.

QuoteBut that brings up another point discussed earlier.

If CAP was awarded a battle streamer for Anti-Sub patrol, each person participating during the period of the award would be entitled to wear the American Defense Service Medal.  That means they would be entitled to VFW membership and veteran status.

Interesting.

Politically, the veteran status may have been the hang-up.  That means dollars and bennies.

GC

Quote from: Gunner C on March 18, 2008, 10:52:31 PM

Quote from: RiverAux on March 18, 2008, 10:06:04 PM
I definetely don't think it would be appropriate for CAP-USAF to have one.  However, keep in mind that these missions were flown by specific patrol bases.  I'm not sure exactly sure where those bases were in the command structure, but I'm reasonably sure that they were not under the control of the Wings where they were based. 

But, under the theory that if an Army unit was eligible for a streamer then the "Army" was as well, then CAP NHQ could probably claim one.  However, it would probably depend on what the criteria are for award of such streamers and I sort of doubt there is an allowance for issuing them to a civilian organization. 

Incidentally, exactly what campaign streamer would this be? 

I don't necessarily disagree with HQs CAP-USAF having the streamer, but I'm thinking that the wings involved (NJ, DE, VA, NC, TX, et al) should be honored as well.  The people flying the missions were official belligerents in war, they were flying as a combatant auxiliary of the USAAF, they engaged the enemy and suffered losses.  I'm thinking that the squadrons, groups, wings, (and possibly) regions should receive the same honorifics that a headquarters that didn't even exist receives.  If it was good enough to award air medals to the participants, then CAP should be awarded campaign credit.  CAP did what the army couldn't - that's an historic fact.

GC

Gunner:

I am pretty sure that Regions did not exist in 1942-43.  I am not so sure about Wings.  I recall reading that Wings organized around states did not emerge until 1944.  

I am not sure, since I did not emerge until 1949.

Quote from: Gunner C on March 18, 2008, 10:57:25 PM

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 18, 2008, 10:49:50 PM
CAP as an organization was probably awarded a battle streamer for the American Defense Campaign.  The question would then be, who holds the lineage and honors of the subordinate units in the Anti-Submarine Campaign? 

That would be an interesting project for the command historian.

QuoteMy guess is that CAP as a whole was recognized, and should display the streamer on the National Headquarters color.  I doubt that individual participating bases were recognized, due to the nature of our organization.

Then the streamer should be on the CAP national colors, not the CAP-USAF colors.

QuoteBut that brings up another point discussed earlier.

If CAP was awarded a battle streamer for Anti-Sub patrol, each person participating during the period of the award would be entitled to wear the American Defense Service Medal.  That means they would be entitled to VFW membership and veteran status.

Interesting.

Politically, the veteran status may have been the hang-up.  That means dollars and bennies.

GC

I agree, but the WASP pilots were given veteran status and they never fired a shot. 

Now I remember why I became a soldier and not a politician.

I think I remember reading that those CAP members who served during the war are entitled to claim veterans status.

Quote from: mikeylikey on March 18, 2008, 11:47:51 PM
I think I remember reading that those CAP members who served during the war are entitled to claim veterans status.

I don't remember that, but then I don't remember as much as I used to.    I would be wonderful if that were true.  Heck, there's only a handful of those guys left.

GC

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 18, 2008, 11:01:06 PM

Quote from: Gunner C on March 18, 2008, 10:57:25 PM

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 18, 2008, 10:49:50 PM
CAP as an organization was probably awarded a battle streamer for the American Defense Campaign.  The question would then be, who holds the lineage and honors of the subordinate units in the Anti-Submarine Campaign? 

That would be an interesting project for the command historian.

QuoteMy guess is that CAP as a whole was recognized, and should display the streamer on the National Headquarters color.  I doubt that individual participating bases were recognized, due to the nature of our organization.

Then the streamer should be on the CAP national colors, not the CAP-USAF colors.

QuoteBut that brings up another point discussed earlier.

If CAP was awarded a battle streamer for Anti-Sub patrol, each person participating during the period of the award would be entitled to wear the American Defense Service Medal.  That means they would be entitled to VFW membership and veteran status.

Interesting.

Politically, the veteran status may have been the hang-up.  That means dollars and bennies.

GC

I agree, but the WASP pilots were given veteran status and they never fired a shot. 

Now I remember why I became a soldier and not a politician.

Yes, and they deserved it.  They were basically female contractors who wore uniforms (like us) and freed up thousands of pilots to fly combat. 

+1 on the soldier vs politician thing.  That's why I'll never be a colonel - I tend towards:  ":::WHAM::: That's my opinion" (and then usually have to duck).  Not the best way to do business, but I'm trying to grow up.  :angel:

Wings existed from the beginning in CAP.  However, there isn't any evidence I am aware of that the patrol bases were subordinate to the wing in which they were geographically located.  

No CAP members received vet status because of their CAP service in WWII.  We tried and there were even Congressional hearings on it, but it was never approved.  

Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on March 18, 2008, 10:58:51 PM

Quote from: Gunner C on March 18, 2008, 10:52:31 PM

Quote from: RiverAux on March 18, 2008, 10:06:04 PM
I definetely don't think it would be appropriate for CAP-USAF to have one.  However, keep in mind that these missions were flown by specific patrol bases.  I'm not sure exactly sure where those bases were in the command structure, but I'm reasonably sure that they were not under the control of the Wings where they were based. 

But, under the theory that if an Army unit was eligible for a streamer then the "Army" was as well, then CAP NHQ could probably claim one.  However, it would probably depend on what the criteria are for award of such streamers and I sort of doubt there is an allowance for issuing them to a civilian organization. 

Incidentally, exactly what campaign streamer would this be? 

You're probably right.  I'm not sure about the wings, either.  But I would think that there would be some sort of intermediate command level between the squadron and Gen Curry.  I'm pretty sure that were were groups, tho.

I don't necessarily disagree with HQs CAP-USAF having the streamer, but I'm thinking that the wings involved (NJ, DE, VA, NC, TX, et al) should be honored as well.  The people flying the missions were official belligerents in war, they were flying as a combatant auxiliary of the USAAF, they engaged the enemy and suffered losses.  I'm thinking that the squadrons, groups, wings, (and possibly) regions should receive the same honorifics that a headquarters that didn't even exist receives.  If it was good enough to award air medals to the participants, then CAP should be awarded campaign credit.  CAP did what the army couldn't - that's an historic fact.

GC

Gunner:

I am pretty sure that Regions did not exist in 1942-43.  I am not so sure about Wings.  I recall reading that Wings organized around states did not emerge until 1944. 

I am not sure, since I did not emerge until 1949.

Quote from: RiverAux on March 18, 2008, 11:59:36 PM
Wings existed from the beginning in CAP.  However, there isn't any evidence I am aware of that the patrol bases were subordinate to the wing in which they were geographically located. 

No CAP members received vet status because of their CAP service in WWII.  We tried and there were even Congressional hearings on it, but it was never approved. 

That's a shame.  They were heroes.

From the HQDA website (http://www.tioh.hqda.pentagon.mil/CampaignStreamers/Campaign.htm):

k. American Campaign. The Army only displays one campaign streamer to reflect the American Campaign because Army units did not participate in combat within the American Campaign. The streamer is light blue with a narrow blue, white and red stripe in the center and a narrow white, red, black and white stripe on each side. The blue represents the Americas and the white and black refers to the German part of the conflict while the red and white refers to the Japanese part of the conflict on the Pacific coast. The following inscription is in yellow.

        ANTISUBMARINE 1941 -1945