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CAP Parajumpers?

Started by HGjunkie, October 04, 2010, 02:16:30 PM

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HGjunkie

Quote from: wikipediaThe CAP would usually send in ground crews after locating a crash site; however, they would sometimes land small aircraft and they did experiment with parachute rescue teams.
Sooo... Did CAP experiment with Pararescue in WWII? If so, was it a good program?

Yes, I know this is from wikipedia, but it seemed interesting.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

Hawk200

Had a little historical article on it, but don't really know how to share it. Can't attach anything anymore.

Smithsonia

I had looked at the CAP WW2 PJs issue. I could find nothing definitive on it. I've recurrently have heard but never found anything like a picture with a CAP logo on the gear with a CAP member attached.

My conclusion has been that "experimenting with para-rescue" could mean - We flew the plane and the PJ was a Coastie - or -
we took notes while the Navy demonstrated their capability - or - we gave some money to ride along with wildland fire smoke jumpers to see if they could be crossed trained to help CAP - or - etc., etc... As such, it has seemed to me that the illusive CAP information may exist in one of these other organizations. Although this is speculation on my part.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

Hawk200

Based on the article I have, the jumpers were CAP members. Most were also CPC civilian parachutists.

Excerpts from the article:

"To become a qualified parachutist during the early years required ground training plus 5 free fall jumps."

"There were no static line jumps made as is the case in military jump training. All jumps--including the first--made by the CAP parachutists were made using the manually deployed/free fall method. The main parachute was a standard backpack (actually closer to a "neck" pack) with a triangular canopy or a T-7 canopy, and the reserve parachute was a seatpack.

"Training jumps were usually made from an altitude of 1800-2000 feet above the ground with 3-5 second delayed openings using whatever aircraft were available: Piper Cub and Cruiser, Porterfield, Taylor craft, Waco (various models), Stinson (various models), Aeronaca, Verville, Luscombe 8A, Arrow Sport, Ford  Trimotor, PT-17, L-4, Fairchild 24, etc. Drop altitudes for demonstration jumps varied from 1800-12,000 feet with delayed openings up to 60 seconds.

"Michigan Wing 63 Order 17 dated 8 June 1943 designated Wings Airport on 18 Mile Road between Mound Road and Ryan Road (Macomb County) about 10 miles north of Detroit as the Civil Air Patrol Training Base for CAP personnel and equipment only (not a designated U.S. airport)."


The article title is "WW II Parachutists of the Civil Air Patrol" by Don Strobaugh.  The article says that the units formed in 1941, and were disbanded sometime in the early '50's.

Hawk200

#4
Also from "WW II Parachutists of the Civil Air Patrol" by Don Strobaugh:

"At the same time (July 1943), the same badge with white wings added was authorized for wear by qualified parachutists. This badge was called the Jumper emblem and was also worn on the upper right arm. The first Jumper emblems were awarded to Lts. James Allen, Ralph Berkhausen, Ted Gasparski and Dorr Walker on 18 July 1943 during maneuvers in Muskegon, Michigan. Allen and Walker had been members of the Chappel Parachute Club. This was the only authorized parachutist wing awarded to CAP jumpers during the entire period of their existence.

"An unofficial metal parachutist wing was also made by an enterprising CAP jumper in the early 1950's. This wing consisted of a silver metal winged parachute worn by some Marine paratroop units during WWII on which a,1/2" diameter metal/enamel CAP emblem (3-bladed prop and triangle) was superimposed. Very few of these wings were made. "

HGjunkie

Wow. That's pretty cool. Why were they be disbanded? Liability? Seems like a good SAR program.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

a2capt

Liability, in the 50's? In the era when people in custody by the cops were handcuffed to a pipe on the floor of the car?

I'm curious now, too- but I suspect of you look at the Probability of Detection chart, with the odds of us actually spotting something during a mission and the readiness involved with a parachute drop .. it was probably hardly ever used.

NIN

The concept of parachuting into a "crash scene" has a tremendously romantic feel to it.

The practical reality of that kind of thing, however, is tremendously different.

For example: the kind of terrain that swallows up a plane tends to be completely unsuitable for a parachute landing.

And then there's the little problem of having all this necessary gear (parachute, protective equipment, medical gear) in an airplane during a search, the hazards and practicalities of actually exiting the aircraft in flight, and, whoops, we really don't *do* the medical part, either.

The operational niche that would have been occupied by individuals jumping in via parachute has been completely replaced by the wide availability of rotary wing aircraft.

(and thats not even addressing things like qualification, training, ongoing proficiency, insurance, liability, potential for loss or damage, the cost of equipment, etc. Y'know: the practical side of the equation.)

This comes up every so often, and believe me, if I thought there was even an iota of potential to do this, I'd be shouting its praises from the rooftops.  But sadly, there isn't.

And as far as I know, the MI Wing jumpers were never used for "rescue" purposes.   There was a predominate emphasis on recruiting and war bonds.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

manfredvonrichthofen

Speaking of the rotary wing aspect of aerial insertion, I think rappelling, already being taught at most encampments, would be a good idea for insertion into a remote dense area. When a crash site is found, generally they aren't in an area easily accessible to an ambulance. The idea of insertion by helicopter would make for less time on ground, and if conducted by trained personnel it would mitigate a lot of risk that comes with personnel on the ground for long periods of time in such terrain. Not saying that personnel being on the ground  is too much risk, but that it would be a good alternative. Then once the personnel are on the ground they can evaluate the situation, if it is permitable then the subject could be hoisted to the helicopter via stokes basket and rushed to aid.

Hawk200

Quote from: HGjunkie on October 04, 2010, 02:57:12 PM
Wow. That's pretty cool. Why were they be disbanded? Liability? Seems like a good SAR program.
From "WW II Parachutists of the Civil Air Patrol" :

"These unique Civil Air Patrol parachute squadrons were discontinued beginning in the early 1 950's after the United States Air Force (a separate branch of service since September 1947) established an Air and Sea Rescue Service."

sardak

Here is a link to the original smokejumper experiment and feasibility report by the US Forest Service issued in 1939.  Interesting read.
http://www.fs.fed.us/r6/oka/global-websites/pdf-files/1939-report.pdf

The US Forest Service Heli-Rappel program was grounded in 2009 following a fatal accident (the rappeller wasn't properly attached to the rappel line). After an accident review board and resulting study, a decision was made this past summer to restart the program. A link to the Interagency Helicopter Rappel Guide is here:
http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/av_safety/assurance/Nat_Rapp/index.html

And a 2007 article by the US Forest Service comparing heli-rappeling, heli-tack and smokejumping.
http://ddr.nal.usda.gov/bitstream/10113/8076/1/IND43943434.pdf

Mike

Smithsonia

There are a number of what seems to be similar programs that existed during WW2. The courier service was armed. Also the courier service flew regular military flights out of Denver and Colorado Springs. The route from Wichita (where the B29 was under construction) to Omaha, where a bomb bay modifications of the B29s to accommodate The Atomic BOMB, to Denver (Western Training and Technical Command) to Colorado Springs, 2nd Air Force Command headquaters, to Wendover (where Paul Tibbets was readying to make the BOMB attacks on Japan.

As of yet, I do not know if CAP personnel were involved in the Bomb project (although I doubt it was more than tangential), carried any secret material or persons, or did anything out of ordinary straight logistical support. However, being that these flight also went to Spokane and Boeing Field Seattle... and racked up more flying hours than any crew in the Air Corps, it is of interest. By the way this group flew the C46 Commando and there was more than one on the route... 4 to 6 I think. Anyway,
the crew was CAP. The planes were CAP. The work... well I don't know anything more.

My point is - when CAP was really incorporated deeply into the AC/AF... we did a lot of things that are now considered exotic and cool.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

Flying Pig

Quote from: manfredvonrichthofen on October 04, 2010, 05:20:54 PM
Speaking of the rotary wing aspect of aerial insertion, I think rappelling, already being taught at most encampments, would be a good idea for insertion into a remote dense area. When a crash site is found, generally they aren't in an area easily accessible to an ambulance. The idea of insertion by helicopter would make for less time on ground, and if conducted by trained personnel it would mitigate a lot of risk that comes with personnel on the ground for long periods of time in such terrain. Not saying that personnel being on the ground  is too much risk, but that it would be a good alternative. Then once the personnel are on the ground they can evaluate the situation, if it is permitable then the subject could be hoisted to the helicopter via stokes basket and rushed to aid.

Dude....You were Air Assault.  You know as well as I do how hazardous that can be.  Rappeling down a wall at encampment is nothing like rappeling out of a Huey.  Can you honestly see CAP GT Members rappeling from a helicopter into a crash site? :o  Not to mention, I can GUARANTEE no agency or contract civilian helo is ever going to allow it.  If an agency comes with a helicopter equipped for rappeling, they are going to bring the people to rappel out of it.

NIN

FYI, one of the jumpers listed in that monograph, Mr. Cousineau, his son was the safety & training advisor at my DZ when I was but a young jumper and put me out on several of my static line & freefall jumps.

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

JohnKachenmeister

WIWAC, I recall a story on page 1 of CAP times... maybe 1964... where a CAP member's widow got the SMV after her husband died in a parachute jump into a crash site.  I don't remember which wing, except that as I remember it was out west somewhere.  I do remember that the widow looked pretty hot.  I think they gave the award to her at the National Board meeting.
Another former CAP officer

RiverAux

I read a bunch of CAP Times from late 50s to about 64-65 a while back and don't recall seeing that article - and I was looking for things like that.  But, if that happened to someone while on CAP duty it just reminds me again at how poorly we do at remembering the 100+ CAP members who have died after WWII. 


NIN

I like mine better:

"15 Chaplains Parachute To Safety Before Crash" - Sept 21, 1954

"NEWHALL, Calif., Sept. 20 (AP) -- Fifteen Civil Air Patrol chaplains and three crewmen of an Air Force C46 transport plane narrowly escaped death today, parachuting just before the big craft crashed in flames on the Los Angeles City Prison farm."

Brilliant.
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

NIN

here ya go

Quote
Paranurse League Jumps Halted By Civil Air Patrol

The Civil Air Patrol won't let a group of seven local women jump out of CAP airplanes any more because of possible suits for damages if the women are killed. But the girls aren't worried. Their leader said Saturday "there are plenty of other planes around."

http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/courant/access/892548882.html?dids=892548882:892548882&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&type=historic&date=Mar+18%2C+1951&author=&pub=Hartford+Courant&desc=Paranurse+League+Jumps+Halted+By+Civil+Air+Patrol&pqatl=google

So yeah, even in 1951 there were "liability concerns."
Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

RiverAux

Quote from: NIN on October 05, 2010, 03:07:55 AM
I like mine better:

"15 Chaplains Parachute To Safety Before Crash" - Sept 21, 1954

"NEWHALL, Calif., Sept. 20 (AP) -- Fifteen Civil Air Patrol chaplains and three crewmen of an Air Force C46 transport plane narrowly escaped death today, parachuting just before the big craft crashed in flames on the Los Angeles City Prison farm."

Brilliant.
Too late, I mentioned that here a while ago....but since this was just an accident rather than an actual CAP program, it doesn't count in this thread  :'(