First CAP SAR mission?

Started by RiverAux, June 18, 2010, 01:46:41 AM

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RiverAux

Might this be CAP's first SAR mission:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=NLQKAAAAIBAJ&sjid=aE0DAAAAIBAJ&pg=7266,2834057&dq=civil-air-patrol&hl=en

Search by Florida Wing on December 12, 1941 for a missing man in Tampa Bay...

HGjunkie

Read the article, those are Coast Guard planes...
Unlikely CAP was involved because of the fact that's 5 days after CAP was founded.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

RiverAux

Read the article, CAP members participated in the search.  I didn't say it was the first one flown in CAP planes, just that it may have been CAP's first SAR mission.  It doesn't have to be an all CAP mission to count.

HGjunkie

Which paragraph does it say that?
If I'm wrong then DOH! on my part.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

jimmydeanno

Quote from: HGjunkie on June 18, 2010, 02:19:59 AM
Which paragraph does it say that?
If I'm wrong then DOH! on my part.

QuoteWally Bishop, executive officer of the local wing of the Florida civil air patrol and Rex MacDonald, operations officer, aided the Coast Guard in the aerial search...

EDIT:  Although, I do find it odd that "civil air patrol" is not capitalized.  They did capitalize Coast Guard.  Is there a chance that this usage of "civil air patrol" isn't a proper noun?
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

HGjunkie

Ah crap. Well, there is a possibility of this being FLWGs first SAR mission.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

RiverAux

I pretty regularly find "civil air patrol" in WWII era news accounts.  Heck, I think I've seen it even in recent times.  Keep in mind those guys were journalists and just as prone to errors as today's folks. 

HGjunkie

I'm too tired to argue the issue. Good night.
••• retired
2d Lt USAF

SarDragon

Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Smithsonia

#9
There are a bunch of "Firsts" actually. First Known CAP SAR mission, the first CAP SAR Sortie - all of which were not first "Official" CAP SAR Mission".  "First Find", "First Save", "First Airborne Mission" are all extra firsts also. Basically we are trying to figure out when it became the CAPs show and not just helpin' to find Bob whose over due... or the Air Corps base called and wanted you to be on the look out for a stranded bird. So more research to do.

I think we'll find that our first authorized and therefore OFFICIAL CAP SAR Mission is later than Dec. '41.

Oh, and Florida led by Zack Mosley and Ike Vermylia could have done it as they were organized as the Florida Defense Force in '39 and came lock-stock-and barrel into CAP on Dec. 1 '41. Florida CAP has a great history.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

JoeTomasone

Quote from: HGjunkie on June 18, 2010, 02:03:30 AM
Read the article, those are Coast Guard planes...
Unlikely CAP was involved because of the fact that's 5 days after CAP was founded.

Eleven days. 

BillB

#11
In 1941 there was no CAP in St. Petersburg, FL. A Squadron was not organized until February, 1942. It was disbanded in 1945. The current Squadron was organized in 1946.
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

HGjunkie

Quote from: JoeTomasone on June 18, 2010, 09:51:47 AM
Quote from: HGjunkie on June 18, 2010, 02:03:30 AM
Read the article, those are Coast Guard planes...
Unlikely CAP was involved because of the fact that's 5 days after CAP was founded.

Eleven days.
that's why you don't stay up till eleven at night to troll captalk. :-[

••• retired
2d Lt USAF

RiverAux

Quote from: Smithsonia on June 18, 2010, 05:12:53 AM
I think we'll find that our first authorized and therefore OFFICIAL CAP SAR Mission is later than Dec. '41.
As you well know, there will not be any paperwork saying that something was the first "official" anything.  If we were to to by the records that CAP actually keeps our first official SAR mission would probably be about 2007 since we throw out mission paperwork after only a few years.

So, for this era it is extremely unlikely that we're going to find any CAP records to back up anything and newspaper accounts are going to be about all we have to work with. 

It does seem entirely feasible to me that such Wing staff members had been appointed this quickly given the fact that FL already had an organized SDF air unit before the formation of CAP.  Quite obviously though there were probably  no "official" CAP procedures for doing anything this early in the organization, but it also seems feasible to me that they could have heard about the search, called Col. Vermilya for permission to participate, and headed out the door.  It might have been as simple as that.

So, what might be necessary to back up this potential claim for it to be the first CAP SAR mission?
1.  Some confirmation that these two were acdtually CAP members would be nice.  I'd say there is a good chance that as wing staff members they would show up in other newspaper accounts of the time.  At least in my state CAP had articles in the paper on a weekly basis.  It wouldn't be out of line to expect that there is an article in some FL paper in early December giving the names and positions of all FL Wing staff members. 
2.  Would be nice to have some articles from some other local papers with similar accounts.  It would be good to determine their specific role -- were they flying in someone else's plane?  Their plane under CAP auspices? 
3.  There might possibly be some Coast Guard records from this era that might mention their participation.  But, finding them might be a chore. 

I'm just putting this out there as a potential record worthy of further investigation. 

Smithsonia

#14
River;
I've been working on this one for two years. I'll be posting all the research just after July 4th, so I'll let others look it over too.

While Neprud is about all there is, for WW2. Official Army Air Corps Assignments do exist. Although not AFRCC type records - there were specific assignments given directly through Wing DOs and to CAP. (There weren't ES Directors during the war) Then the whole thing for 1st and 2nd Air Force was turned over to CAP in the spring of '43.

Men with planes have always gone to look for over due aircraft and lost people, but that doesn't make it an official CAP search. Civilian Pilot Training Programs, which was often Co-located with CAP Squadrons and included CAP personnel in both programs, also make this research tainted.

I don't know about Coast Guard records.

BUT, most of the basic research should be online in July and you can decide for yourself. Then we can have one of those barn burning debates.
It should be lively. 
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

Smithsonia

Research material online regarding this topic will include things like this:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/33219760/WWII-US-Coast-Guard-CAP-History

Give it time to load. This is the WW2 history of the Coast Guard and has some CAP references. The trouble is these are Coast Guard Missions and it's tough to tell who did what CAP-wise. This is a topic that will need a bunch of us History-philes to go through to finish the research.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

RiverAux

Quote from: Smithsonia on June 18, 2010, 08:15:37 PM
Men with planes have always gone to look for over due aircraft and lost people, but that doesn't make it an official CAP search.
Very true as we know all too well from occassional "situations" even today.  But, lack of any CAP or other "official" records, doesn't necessarily mean that something wasn't an "official" mission either given the paucity of  such records in the first place. 

Smithsonia

^^^^
River;
Well that is the reason for the research and follow on debate isn't it? Soon you (all CAP members) will have more reading on this subject than you can possibly take in except over long periods of time. Thousands of articles from the War years. Most aren't definitive as to Official... but some are obviously official and some are arguable. It will be enough to choke a horse or dam a "River." More in about 2 or 3 weeks.

My hope is that the articles will lead others to go out and find the definitive documentation.
With regards;
ED OBRIEN

RiverAux

Quote from: Smithsonia on June 19, 2010, 12:55:11 AM
My hope is that the articles will lead others to go out and find the definitive documentation.
Basically why I posted the link at the top of this thread -- I don't have the time to chase down this particular lead, but it may give an enterprising historian in Florida something to chew on.