So back when I was a cadet (79-83) we wore silly-looking plastic ribbons with cartoons on them. I read the thread about the history of the cadet uniform, and saw them described...but I didn't see anything about WHY these things came about.
Does anyone here have any insight? Was it just one more example of Seventies Silliness, like hip-huggers, frizzy hair, disco or Hush Puppies?
the stork, I'd bet
The ribbons were also called "ever clean" ribbons. I imagine that at some point somebody got tired of replacing their ribbons every two or three years( if not more often) and thought that hard plastic was a way to make the ribbons last longer and keep them looking better. But they had their own set of problems as well. They warped in any kind of heat and were easily damaged if you caught them on anything. They were also a pain to keep on the ribbon holders. Sometimes you had to take little strips of paper, fold them up to the size and shape of the ribbon holder, and then hold them against the ribbon holder while you slid the ribbons on over the top.
Eventually, I think they just decided that they looked to "disco" and with all the other problems decided it was easier just to replace the cloth ribbons when they became frayed or dirty.
I found this on the CadetStuff wiki...it all kinda makes sense. Especially the idea that the Heraldic branch didn't have time to work on them, so they asked the internal CAP art department to come up with them.
http://wiki.cadetstuff.org/index.php?title=CAP_uniform_history#Ribbons_and_Awards_of_the_Second_Generation
This piece quotes a CAP News story of 1998 written by Col. Blascovich.
That guy taught me SO much about CAP at conferences...
Anyway, so it says:
"National headquarters quickly enlisted the support of its art department, which was responsible for the illustration of CAP's textbooks. Charles Wood, the chief illustrator, was asked for suggestions. Before long, he was responsible for designing the new cadet and senior program ribbons."
Looks like the same people are developing the current things including, but not limited to:
- CAP Monopoly logo, originally a conference logo, that sadly spread like Ebola
- The race car era CAP emblem that was on the NHQ web site for some time
- The Triangle Thingy
- "CAP Cares" logo
- grunge effect on the NHQ web site
- slaughtered Air Force Hap Arnold symbol variations
- Replacing the "O" in "Volunteer" with a triangle
- the website.
- "Civil Air Patrol" stripe thingy that goes on the vans with the stupid plane flying through it
- library card (for the record, my Philadelphia Free Library card is a higher quality print)
- DDR logos (all three versions)
Quote from: JC004 on May 05, 2011, 02:51:42 AM
- CAP Monopoly logo, originally a conference logo, that sadly spread like Ebola
Except in the case of Ebola, it's so virulent that it flares for a few weeks and then drops off as all the susceptible patients die off quickly. I see no such thing in the case of Monopoly... >:D
The people who designed the ribbons designed this.
WARNING. SOME VIEWERS MAY FIND THE FOLLOWING IMAGE AS DISTURBING AS CARTOONS ON A MILITARY-STYLE UNIFORM.
Note the cartoon houses which are not unlike the cartoon airplanes and such.
(http://www.colganmarketing.com/capfail.jpg)
:o
My lord....that truck is hideous....
Indeed. Perhaps CAP has a slight heritage of hideous. I remember finding many of those cartoon ribbons in my grandfather's things. I couldn't understand why they were so silly. They looked even sillier next to the Marine ribbons...purple heart and all. Somehow he had a plastic over those for the combined rack.
For those of you who decry the older CP ribbons, shame on you. That's what we got WIWAC, and they were new and exciting at the time. There is nothing cartoonish about them. If you look at them closely, each ribbon had an imoge or letter representing the person the achievement was named for. They are a part of our history and heritage.
Curry - a 'C' and two 'prop inside the triangle' images
Arnold - a B-26, but I don't recall the specific association with him
Wright - the Wright Flyer
Rickenbacker - his 'Hat in the Ring' logo
Lindbergh - the 'Spirit of St. Louis'
Doolittle - the B-25 from the raid
Goddard - a rocket
Mitchell - an 'M' and two stars
Earhart - red, white, and blue shield and, red, white, and blue striped bunting
Spaatz - An 'S' and four stars
I still have all of mine, from the Arnold, all the way through Mitchell.
There is only one second generation ribbon authorized to be worn, the Cadet COP. The COP with three clasps for completion of achievement 9 would have been transferred as a Spaatz, so National never replaced the ribbon. All other 2nd generation ribbons were changed to the current style or dropped.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 05, 2011, 06:50:47 AM
For those of you who decry the older CP ribbons, shame on you. That's what we got WIWAC, and they were new and exciting at the time. There is nothing cartoonish about them.
Me too. That's what I got, and I kept all mine, too. But regardless of how the pictures related to the history (Rickenbacker's hat-in-ring, for example) the combination of pictures and plastic WAS cartoony. I felt a little silly wearing them. And yes, I saved mine all through Mitchell, too.
I'm proud of what I did WIWAC...and I'm not decrying anyone's accomplishments. But aesthetically those ribbons just plain didn't do it for me. I appreciate that others may feel differently.
And countless hours were spent at every level of the CAC trying to change the ribbons in the early 1970's.
Cadets can and did "convert" their plastic ribbons to cloth by carefully peeling away the clear laminate from the underlying fabric with a steady hand and an Xacto knife. Often it took two or three attempts to get a successful "peel."
I still have a full set of plastic ribbons that I wear with my shade 1505 historical uniform at conferences. I have it set up as a C/Sgt with the white and blue sew-on stripes. I am putting another together with my old shoulder boards.
Quote from: Ned on May 05, 2011, 04:38:50 PM
Cadets can and did "convert" their plastic ribbons to cloth by carefully peeling away the clear laminate from the underlying fabric with a steady hand and an Xacto knife.
I thought I was the only one who did that!
Quote from: ProdigalJim on May 05, 2011, 06:55:36 PM
Quote from: Ned on May 05, 2011, 04:38:50 PM
Cadets can and did "convert" their plastic ribbons to cloth by carefully peeling away the clear laminate from the underlying fabric with a steady hand and an Xacto knife.
I thought I was the only one who did that!
I've seen some of these from the past. My grandfather did the opposite - making his military ribbons plastic. I wonder if that was very common.
Quote from: ProdigalJim on May 05, 2011, 06:55:36 PM
Quote from: Ned on May 05, 2011, 04:38:50 PM
Cadets can and did "convert" their plastic ribbons to cloth by carefully peeling away the clear laminate from the underlying fabric with a steady hand and an Xacto knife.
I thought I was the only one who did that!
Nope ;D You had to have several of each on hand "just in case".
WIWAC (when rocks were still soft...etc.) it seemed to be triggered once you had been awarded an attachment to any ribbon - SAR or Recruiting, or the CD Ribbon that had a big round disc in the center. No matter what you used to make a hole for the device, the plastic always turned milky white.
Plastic "cartoon" ribbons, 1505's yep those where the days my friends.
No simple put the ribbon on, nope you had to know what it was for and which direction it was suppose to face.
Seems like those little "cartoons" reinforced the meaning of the award.
Also remember that back in that day we where in a police action in South East Asia, very wet over there I was told.
Might have something to do with the plastic ribbons.
I'm not catching the connection between CAP plastic ribbons, and SEA. I don't recall the RealMilitary™ using plastic ribbons during that period. I know that I had a bit of heartburn when I became a SM, because initially I couldn't wear my AD ribbons with my CAP ribbons.
I remember back in my days WIWAC that plastic coated ribbons required a different style of ribbon holder - they were thicker than the thin brass or aluminum ribbon holders used for cloth ribbons. IIRC, the RealMilitary® got away from wearing them around the early to mid-1960s, but CAP continued until the early 80s. I'm thinking the supplier of plastic ribbons to CAP finally ran out of them before we got cloth ribbons as cadinks (but still with cartoons, they didn't reach their present design until 1984). My first squadron commander, the legendary Lt Col Ron Bradford of Georgia Wing, pointedly wore only his US military decorations (Silver Star, Purple Heart and the three SEA service medals, topped with the Combat Infantry Badge) instead of the cartoon ribbons.
Yes, they were a major pain to put on any clasps or attachments. BTW, Dave - the Arnold ribbon depicted a B-17; in later years it morphed into a stylized abomination that barely looked like an airplane.
The only place I ever saw the plastic ribbons was in CAP, and only in that series of ribbons. The older ribbons that were replaced were all cloth. And as far as AD stuff went, I was only familiar with USN, and am 100% certain that they never wore plastic ribbons.
They did require a thicker bar, and you needed a separate bar for each row. There were no multiple row bars for the plastic ribbons.
OK, B-17. I just had to find the right side view to confirm it. My ribbons were all from earlier batches. I got the first five in '65, and bought the Mitchell ribbon and the two before it at the same time in the same year.
The order of wearing was different back then, too.
Curry (don't have one of those)
Arnold
Doolittle
Goddard
Lindbergh
Rickenbacker
Wright Brothers
Mitchell
Quote from: SarDragon on May 08, 2011, 08:48:55 AM
The only place I ever saw the plastic ribbons was in CAP, and only in that series of ribbons. The older ribbons that were replaced were all cloth. And as far as AD stuff went, I was only familiar with USN, and am 100% certain that they never wore plastic ribbons.
They did require a thicker bar, and you needed a separate bar for each row. There were no multiple row bars for the plastic ribbons.
OK, B-17. I just had to find the right side view to confirm it. My ribbons were all from earlier batches. I got the first five in '65, and bought the Mitchell ribbon and the two before it at the same time in the same year.
The order of wearing was different back then, too.
Curry (don't have one of those)
Arnold
Doolittle
Goddard
Lindbergh
Rickenbacker
Wright Brothers
Mitchell
That's because the military didn't have plastic ribbons; they had laminated ones. You could order ribbons laminated and then mounted. I'm not sure when the practice stopped. I've seen some World War II Navy ribbons of that style, but it was always only one bar and the ribbons were a different width and height. My uncle's World War II Army ribbons were laminated. He wore one bar with a single laminated ribbon on top...and the ribbon bars were thicker just like the original CAP ribbons that I, too, wore. At some point the laminated plastic turns yellow.
There have been some interesting military ribbon styles over the years. At one point ribbons were sewn directly on a service coat. I've seen Distinguished/Presidential Unit Citations made of brass with the ribbon being some sort of enameled Cloisonné blue. I once had a set of ribbons from the Philippines, woven of embroidery thread with devices that wouldn't quite be regulation. While they were neat at first because they could actually be sewn on a jacket, they became outdated quickly. I've also seen decoration lapel pins that were woven of embroidery thread.
I never thought much about either my cadet or senior member ribbons from that era, it's what we had, didn't get dirty as quickly and I still wore it with pride.
OK, help me out here. What is your distinction between 'plastic' and 'laminated'? How are they different?
My cadet ribbons have a woven cloth center, just like a normal ribbon, and the cloth part is sandwiched (laminated) between two layers of plastic.
Quote from: SarDragon on May 08, 2011, 09:29:15 PM
OK, help me out here. What is your distinction between 'plastic' and 'laminated'? How are they different?
My cadet ribbons have a woven cloth center, just like a normal ribbon, and the cloth part is sandwiched (laminated) between two layers of plastic.
Well, whether it's accurate or not, I always referred to my cadet and first senior member ribbons as "plastic," because they were thin pieces of fabric, coated on both sides and then form fitted to slide on what I remember to be an aluminum ribbon bar. I remember that some of my ribbons even had a silver or light gray manufacturer's trade mark on the back.
When I transitioned to senior member in 1971 was when I remember the conversion to cloth CAP ribbons. Many people continued to wear the plastic ones until the order came through channels to remove them. I remember that I had the old style Encampment Ribbon -- the one with the green stripe -- and it was a trip finding a replacement, so I pealed the plastic off and wore that ribbon for a while. I don't remember those ribbons discoloring.
Without tearing apart my uncle's ribbons, what I term as laminated are a standard ribbon that has a thin wrap of plastic that surrounds the outside of the ribbon and would sit underneath the brass slide on the back. I tore apart one of those ribbons once. Behind the plastic was some sort of adhesive that was really sticky and couldn't be removed. If left uncoated, the ribbon would get dirty really quick because it obviously would attract lots of dust and dirt. The older the ribbon, the more likely the plastic would yellow.
Quote from: Ned on May 05, 2011, 04:38:50 PM
And countless hours were spent at every level of the CAC trying to change the ribbons in the early 1970's.
Cadets can and did "convert" their plastic ribbons to cloth by carefully peeling away the clear laminate from the underlying fabric with a steady hand and an Xacto knife. Often it took two or three attempts to get a successful "peel."
We covertly referred to plastic covered, cartoon ribbons as "Anaheim Ribbons" back in the day. (Anaheim is where Disneyland is located, home to Mickey Mouse. So, nobody said they looked "Mickey Mouse," but everybody knew...)
I was a ribbon peeler. I discovered a number of tricks along the way. Some ribbons could not be easily peeled - ECI comes to mind. The top layer would come off, but a thin layer permeated the ribbon.
I had a cottage industry at CAC meetings and Wing Conferences. The best tool was actually a cheap money clip with knife that they gave us as a graduation gift at Flying Encampment in 1970. Just the right sharpness, angle of point, thickness. Also had an Xacto knife and a small pliers - many times, once you got the "lift" started, all you had to do was grab and pull, quickly.
I had a couple of trainees in my employ. We had somebody come into a room once, look at the "workshop" and say "This looks like the uniform shop in Stalag III." We had some of te more common ones pre done. All "work" was at the owners risk - we couldn't tell in advance if it would peel OK or not. Still, I think I had a 95% success rate.
At the time (late 60's, early 70's), one could still buy plastic COVERS for ribbons. The market for those was military people. So, plastic ribbons, in some measure, made sense at the time.
I had an uncle who's uniform was in my Great Grandmother's house for years. There were two sets of USAF ribbons.
They were...
Outstanding Unit Award
Good Conduct Medal
National Defense Medal
Small Arms Expert
One set was of very thin ribbons, Slightly larger than the usual ones. The others, which someone threw away when we were lads, were with in a yellow plastic/nitrate flim (for lack of a description) which had also discolored the ribbons underneath.
My uncle (great uncle) was an early 60s Veteran from the days of those more wollen uniforms. I am assuming these ribbons were from that era.
By the way, I wrote much of the article on the Cadet Stuff Wiki intending to revise and make more complete. I had not returned there since I once got dogpiled for a thread I posted there on designing the ultimate "cadet programs" uniform. I may return to it\ someday.
The differences in the plastic ribbons were more a difference in manufacturer than in policy. I have seen plastic ribbons from the same time period that were cloth with a plastic film and ribbons that were a cloth covered in a hard plastic. The hard plastic ribbons go all the way back to at least WW II and were mostly made by Wolf-Brown. My set of 1960's CAP cadet ribbons, Curry through Earhart, were hard plastic and made by Wolf-Brown. I still have them in a shadow box and I liked them then and still do now. The little images on each ribbon had a historical reason for the image, i.e. the hat-in-the-ring for the Rickenbacker ribbon. To me the ribbons meant something much more than today's little bits of colored cloth that have no heraldry behind them. Senior ribbons from the fifties and sixties also came in the hard plastic versions. My father's ribbons from WW II (Bronze Star, Good Conduct, Pacific Campaign, American Campagin, WW II Victory, Philippnes Liberation and more) are all hard plastic Wolf-Brown ribbons period to the war. I also still have those along with his CIB and the medals.
It was not hard to attach devices to a plastic ribbon. Simply take the pin on the ribbon holder bar, line it up where you needed a hole and push it through the plastic ribbon. It was the exact size needed to attach the device. Make the hole, put the ribbon on the holder and then attach the device and it was on for good.
This is my first posting. I enjoy reading your discussions and wanted to jump in on this one. Thanks.
Lance, former Cadet Lt Colonel and retired Colonel, CAP
Quote from: Lance on June 15, 2011, 03:59:32 AM
The differences in the plastic ribbons were more a difference in manufacturer than in policy. I have seen plastic ribbons from the same time period that were cloth with a plastic film and ribbons that were a cloth covered in a hard plastic. The hard plastic ribbons go all the way back to at least WW II and were mostly made by Wolf-Brown. My set of 1960's CAP cadet ribbons, Curry through Earhart, were hard plastic and made by Wolf-Brown. I still have them in a shadow box and I liked them then and still do now. The little images on each ribbon had a historical reason for the image, i.e. the hat-in-the-ring for the Rickenbacker ribbon. To me the ribbons meant something much more than today's little bits of colored cloth that have no heraldry behind them. Senior ribbons from the fifties and sixties also came in the hard plastic versions. My father's ribbons from WW II (Bronze Star, Good Conduct, Pacific Campaign, American Campagin, WW II Victory, Philippnes Liberation and more) are all hard plastic Wolf-Brown ribbons period to the war. I also still have those along with his CIB and the medals.
It was not hard to attach devices to a plastic ribbon. Simply take the pin on the ribbon holder bar, line it up where you needed a hole and push it through the plastic ribbon. It was the exact size needed to attach the device. Make the hole, put the ribbon on the holder and then attach the device and it was on for good.
This is my first posting. I enjoy reading your discussions and wanted to jump in on this one. Thanks.
Lance, former Cadet Lt Colonel and retired Colonel, CAP
:clap: ... and welcome to CT, Sir.
Quote from: Lance on June 15, 2011, 03:59:32 AM
The differences in the plastic ribbons were more a difference in manufacturer than in policy. I have seen plastic ribbons from the same time period that were cloth with a plastic film and ribbons that were a cloth covered in a hard plastic. The hard plastic ribbons go all the way back to at least WW II and were mostly made by Wolf-Brown. My set of 1960's CAP cadet ribbons, Curry through Earhart, were hard plastic and made by Wolf-Brown. I still have them in a shadow box and I liked them then and still do now. The little images on each ribbon had a historical reason for the image, i.e. the hat-in-the-ring for the Rickenbacker ribbon. To me the ribbons meant something much more than today's little bits of colored cloth that have no heraldry behind them. Senior ribbons from the fifties and sixties also came in the hard plastic versions. My father's ribbons from WW II (Bronze Star, Good Conduct, Pacific Campaign, American Campagin, WW II Victory, Philippnes Liberation and more) are all hard plastic Wolf-Brown ribbons period to the war. I also still have those along with his CIB and the medals.
It was not hard to attach devices to a plastic ribbon. Simply take the pin on the ribbon holder bar, line it up where you needed a hole and push it through the plastic ribbon. It was the exact size needed to attach the device. Make the hole, put the ribbon on the holder and then attach the device and it was on for good.
This is my first posting. I enjoy reading your discussions and wanted to jump in on this one. Thanks.
Lance, former Cadet Lt Colonel and retired Colonel, CAP
Welcome, too.
It's not that I miss the ribbons, but they certainly represented a formative period in my life. I do, however, miss Wolf-Brown, that was excellent quality insignia. I treasure the sterling sliver winged CAP lapel pin that I got from them years ago.
Is it Wolf-Brown, that I was thinking of, in terms of the manufacturer's mark on the back of the ribbons?
Plastic Ribbons date from WW1, Wolf-Brown Company (WB), the make of many, patented them again around 1940.
For all those with plastic they still dislike, they are a prized collectable for many on Ebay and go for alot more than cloth, so this shows that they were loved and are still very much in demand.
The WB ribbons had a cloth center with plastic all around, not to be confused with the type that had a cellophane type piece over the top.
The WB were very sturdy and with little care will last forever. They did use an aluminum slide holder though which was thicker.
Eric
I love my old cadet ribbons with the characters on them. From a historic perspective it makes more sense looking at them and understanding who they were named after. I've shown them to my cadets and they like them as well. Maybe not something to bring back but to embrace our past. I recall the plastic ones as well. They did keep clean but were a bugger getting off/on the ribbon holder. We had them in the early 80's when I first joined and then went to all cloth soon after. Was the reason we took off the symbols to look more in line with military ribbons that have nothing but colored stripes etc?
I think I might have about a dozen or more of the ribbon holders for the plastic ribbons if anybody is interested. I would have to check what I have.