November NEC Meeting - NCO Corps

[ddelaney103]

Well, I am still waiting for someone to explain to me what "airman's work" is.

Also, most USAF flying squadrons (the ones that own airplanes) are mainly composed of officers.  I would be surprised if a TFS has 5 NCOs in it.

In a C-130 squadron, you're looking at about 20-30 enlisted, not counting loads.  There's the orderly room, life support, intel, airfield management.  The farther away you get from ops, the more enlisted you see.

[ddelaney103]

Since rank is maintained in e-services, it should be easy to count.  Unless they only show up as SM in the data base.

That will be the case unless they send the info to NHQ to add to the db, which is not required.

[JayT]

I would love to see the distribution of those forty four NCOs. Are they spread randomly throughout the program? Or is there a small number of units that have several?

This is a mistake in reading the brief.

They say "44," but then note they don't track NCO numbers unless the individual ID's themself on the application form.  Since the grade form for an NCO/FO is held locally and may (but doesn't have to) go to NHQ, the numbers could be way off.

Still, I think we're talking in the 200-300 range at best.

So is that 44 the number of CAP dudes and girls with stripes on their shoulder, or just the number that National knows of?

I figured NHQ could at least figure out how many NCOs we have to start with.

[RiverAux]

I read the brief as saying that there are only 44 in the entire nation who are CAP NCO and it does acknowledge that there are probaby many more former NCOs in CAP, but they have not chosen to be CAP NCOs.  I asume that the briefer had done some sort of survey to determine how many were out there. 

[JohnKachenmeister]

Sorry.

None of the nay-sayers have convinced me that this is a bad idea.

On the other hand, mplementation of this plan might screw it up.

I guess I have to say that I am still keeping an open mind on this one.

This COULD be a great program, but I have some doubts.

[ddelaney103]

Sorry.

None of the nay-sayers have convinced me that this is a bad idea.

On the other hand, mplementation of this plan might screw it up.

I guess I have to say that I am still keeping an open mind on this one.

This COULD be a great program, but I have some doubts.

What would it need to do in order to make this a "great program?"

[JohnKachenmeister]

Fair question.

To be a great program, the CAP NCO/enlisted program would have to pretty much re-create CAP, or at least morph it into something different from what we know now.

It would also have to provide for a lot of flexibility to meet the personal needs of volunteers.

We all have folk in our units who say "I only want to do _____."  (Fill in name of selected activity)  There are those who only want to play with the cadets, and have zero interest in any other mission.  There are the guys who only want to be involved in commo.  Only want to be on a GT, with no interest in advancing beyond GTL. 

We could, under a great program, make such persons enlisted specialists.  There's no reason that the "Cadet Mom" who wants no part of ES and no part of AE could not serve as an airman-to-NCO.  Similarly, the commo guy could advance up through the NCO ranks, and never have to concern himself with cadets, except to train a cadet or two as radio operators.  They could become supervisors and subject-matter experts as NCO's.

The officers would have to buy into the whole package, and the officer PD program would have to establish broad knowledge of all CAP activity.

The big question would be the guys who "Only want to fly."  Traditionally, pilots are officers, and as the pilot in command, such rank is appropriate.  So, I guess I would give pilots 2ndLt, and see if they ran with that rank and climbed up through the officer ranks.  If they didn't, they stay second lieutenants for life, a fate worse than death.  Observers and scanners, with no interest in any other parts of the program, could remain NCO's, but I'm sure there will be some who disagree.

This would keep CAP with a supply of volunteers as worker-bees, without giving lieutenant colonel rank to a guy who can't spell "ES," and who has never been on a mission.

[ZigZag911]

Concur with Kach's view on enlisted specialists....fairly appropriate, too -- as I understand it, the reason USAF eliminated warrant ranks was that senior NCOs were the Air Force's technical specialists.

The one point I disagree about is the 'just a pilots'. I fail to see why CAP pilots (who do not wish to assume other accompanying officer level responsibilities) should not serve in NCO grades....both Navy & Marines had NCO pilots early in World War II....RAF had them, I think, right through the war.

At most I'd make the Flight Officers.

[JohnKachenmeister]

ZZ:

I tend to agree, but tradition dictates otherwise. 

I like the idea of FO's, but apparently Big Mama Blue does not.

[ZigZag911]

John, I don't think USAF really cares what grade we give pilots, if any!

[Short Field]

[In a C-130 squadron, you're looking at about 20-30 enlisted, not counting loads.  There's the orderly room, life support, intel, airfield management.  The farther away you get from ops, the more enlisted you see.

What was the total manning in the C-130 squadron - and were all the enlisted part of the squadron manning document or just attached to the squadron from wing or another unit? 

[CAP_truth]

I agree Flight Officers for mission related skills would be a good ideal. Once they completed the required training they then could be promoted to the correct officer grade. But we are getting off the track of this tread. They are looking into a NCO corp. and looking to repport back at the August NB meeting.

[Flying Pig]

Im actually all for getting rid of ranks all together.  Keep ribbons and medals.....get rid of rank.  I know a lot of you like to walk around with it on your shoulder.....but all it shows is what level of the PD program you have achieved.  And we already have ribbons for those accomplishments.

[Westernslope]

........... I know a lot of you like to walk around with it on your shoulder.....but all it shows is what level of the PD program you have achieved.......... 

This is not quite true. There are Lt Cols and at least one Col who have never advanced past Level 1 in PD.

*edit for spelling

[SarDragon]

Well, I am still waiting for someone to explain to me what "airman's work" is.

Also, most USAF flying squadrons (the ones that own airplanes) are mainly composed of officers.  I would be surprised if a TFS has 5 NCOs in it.

Having only had direct experience with USN/USMC squadrons, I ask - who owns the guys who fix the airplanes?

In my world (USN/USMC), the maintainers belong to the same unit that owns the airplains and the pilots. The E's outnumber the O's by at least 3 to 1, if not more. I'm not going to drag out a cruise book and count heads.

[ddelaney103]

Well, I am still waiting for someone to explain to me what "airman's work" is.

Also, most USAF flying squadrons (the ones that own airplanes) are mainly composed of officers.  I would be surprised if a TFS has 5 NCOs in it.

Having only had direct experience with USN/USMC squadrons, I ask - who owns the guys who fix the airplanes?

In my world (USN/USMC), the maintainers belong to the same unit that owns the airplains and the pilots. The E's outnumber the O's by at least 3 to 1, if not more. I'm not going to drag out a cruise book and count heads.

In the AF this has changed a little over time.  An airlift group has one or more flying sqdns and a maintenance sqdn.  However, the crew chiefs have at times belonged to either airlift or maintenance.

An ops sqdn is very officer heavy, while I spent years in a maintenance sqdn and rarely saw an officer.

[ddelaney103]

[In a C-130 squadron, you're looking at about 20-30 enlisted, not counting loads.  There's the orderly room, life support, intel, airfield management.  The farther away you get from ops, the more enlisted you see.

What was the total manning in the C-130 squadron - and were all the enlisted part of the squadron manning document or just attached to the squadron from wing or another unit? 

Part of the unit.

[Short Field]

Part of the unit.

Thanks - the squadrons I was associated with had very few enlisted actually assigned - most were attached from wing or other support squadrons.  But I was drifting off the thread and will try to get back on.

My main issue with an NCO Corps is understanding what role they will be filling and what functions they are going to be doing.  I still don't see jobs in CAP that I didn't see being done by officers in the RM.   Granted, a lot of that depended on the unit I was with, but I served in a lot of officer heavy units that had very routine administrative duties performed as additional duties by the officers.  

Some of the discussions seems to focus on preventing people from holding officer rank that some on the board don't feel they deserve to hold.   So what if someone never promotes past 2nd Lt or someone else gets a special promotion to Lt Col.  It doesn't block or slow up anyone else from getting promoted and it all pays the same.   As long as they continue to support the organization, then we are gaining more from having them here than not having them here.   Outside of the ones who get promoted to their CAP rank based on their RM rank, I really haven't seen any field graders who are not active in the squadron (if not now at least in their younger days) or behave so badly they are a disgrace to CAP.  CAP rank ONLY reflects either the special skills an individual brings to CAP or their professional development.   

So again, what advantage does NCO rank bring to CAP that officer rank doesn't already provide?  Ignore the skills that a Command Chief Master Sergeant brings - we are looking at growing a NCO Corps and I don't see CAP ever growing even a Master Sergeant.   NCO's to train cadets?  Nothing a CAP officer can't do in the Tac Officer role.   So lets start providing some details here.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Short Field:

We can't provide details.  We can only speculate.

[Flying Pig]

By Short Field...
So again, what advantage does NCO rank bring to CAP that officer rank doesn't already provide? 


It isnt going to do anything for our program except give Vanguard something else to sell.