November NEC Meeting - NCO Corps

[RiverAux]

I do think it is a credibility issue, especially when interacting with the AD/Guard or reserve types.  They dont care if we arent "real military"  we look like it and act like it, and it confuses them to see Majors doing airman work and certainly puts a bad taste in their mouth for the organization to deal officer to officer with someone that the best they can do is work at the local quickie-mart...

You know, CAP is CAP.  We have our needs and the military has theirs.  I see no need to turn ourselves topsy turvy to avoid confusing a few military types here and there.  They're pretty smart guys.  It won't take but a few minutes to straighten them out.  We haven't driven the AF into a tailspin by being associated with them this long.  Somehow they've managed to come to grips with CAP's rank system.  Let the NG do the same. 

I think everyone wouldn't mind if our prof dev system was toughened up here and there, but there is nothing real to be gained by upending our system in some attempt to match military standards when 95%+ of the time CAP members hardly ever see a military person and only a very tiny percentage actually have any sort of working relationship with them. 

As the NCO issue has rolled around here over the last year, I'm starting to form the impression that the proponents of an NCO Corps, especially those that want to keep it restricted to only current and former NCOs, are sort of snobish.  I'm beginning to think that they want to set themselves apart from the rest of CAP members because they think they're better than the rest of us by virtue of being NCOs.  You'd think this would be out of place since some folks look down on enlisted members, but when you think about it this is not much different from political candidates who try to make as much hay as possible about coming from humble roots.  Former military officers don't seem to have any such pretentions and there are those that have taken rank reductions when they joined CAP. 

I've been fighting to try to keep a generally open mind on the issue and there is still a slight possibility that NHQ will come up with a rational reason for there to be NCOs in the first place.  At the moment I can't see any real benefit, but on the other hand, despite what I said above, I don't see a lot of potential for real harm either.  Now, if we expand it to some of the other schemes being promoted here, the negatives start to add up quickly....

[brasda91]

When I think what I, and others, had to endure to wear the gold bar of a 2nd Lt., and then I consider what a CAP member has to endure to earn the same privilege, I find a serious disconnect there!

I hope you were joking.  There is no comparison between the two.  You're comparing apples to oranges.  A bar in CAP is accomplished by following CAP's guidelines and I find no problem with that.

[Monty]

It just keeps coming back to the basic fact that "CAP rank is CAP rank."  That's fine, but we need to ditch the bars and oak leaves.

If our grade didn't look like the Real Military (TM), so many problems would just fade away.  Nobody would be sweating things like grade inversion, the "not ready for oak leaf majors," how we work with the AF when CAP officers interface with AF enlisted.

The problem is we're all about the bling.  There are too many CAP'ers who want to look like real officers and will bolt when we tried to take that away.  The NB crowd want their eagles (and stars, if they can get them) and won't move on anything like this.  The cries of "I _earned_ this!" will echo across the land.

In the end, it'll be "sit down, shut up, and pass the tofu oak leaves."

I haven't been commenting much on CAPTalk lately, but this post right here in my opinion matches *exactly* what I have thought a long time.

Organizations (military oriented or not) can function just fine without Majors and what not.  I also agree that doing away with "cut and paste" bars and leaves would compel a lot of folks to come to terms with a lot of things that frankly, I think would be far too painful if folks were given their druthers.

Imagine the horror of a CAP that happens to be a USAF auxiliary (when needed as such) that had it's own grades by title and design.

Might hack off folks that are in love with the notion of being sort of like a Lt Col with a big 'ole service cap (translate: blingage), but I'd gladly trade my leaves for something organizationally specific. 

I don't think the Navy has an inferiority complex with having Lieutenant Commanders by title instead of Majors...I don't think GS-10s live in a state of agony either without insignia......and I think all of CAPTalks "deep thinkers" CAP types are man/woman enough to make the ego shift as well as anyone.

[RiverAux]

I don't think the Navy has an inferiority complex with having Lieutenant Commanders by title instead of Majors

Thats because they're following the traditions of the naval service.  CAP was using military rank and insignia well before the creation of the USAF.  Maybe they need to stop copying us and change THEIR insignia.

[Monty]

I don't think the Navy has an inferiority complex with having Lieutenant Commanders by title instead of Majors

Thats because they're following the traditions of the naval service.  CAP was using military rank and insignia well before the creation of the USAF.  Maybe they need to stop copying us and change THEIR insignia.

Not really pulling the "who's first" card.  That's actually irrelevant to the spirit of my post.   

[RiverAux]

Not at all.  CAP has a long tradition of using military rank and insigna for its personnel that is separate and unique from the Air Force.  We were using them even while we were part of the Office of Civilian Defense and before being attached to the Army. 

And to stay on topic to some extent, I'll even point out that CAP has a long tradition of having an enlisted program for senior members. 

[brasda91]

Keep in mind that, if you have Maj.'s and Lt Col's walking around that do not display the professional image, remember that someone other than that Maj. or Lt Col approved their promotion.  Promotions are not automatic.  We should put more pressure on the Squadron, Group and Wing Commanders to only approve the promotion when the member is responsible to wear the next higher grade.

[Grumpy]

I agree that we should toughen up the Professional Development aspects of our program.  We could even start a system like the WAPS system the Air Force uses for its enlisted.  For promotion you'd take a written exam and meet an oral board in addition to TIG/TIS requirements.

Now then if you really want to intensify it and make us "commissioned" officers that have to meet the same criteria as our big brothers in the Air Force, as some have suggested/implied, then perhaps they ought to start paying us.  You know that will never happen.

I'm a retired NCO (E-7) and a Lt Col in CAP.  I've been a Supervising Deputy on a sheriff's dept. and a Sqdrn Cmdr three times in CAP and served on Group Staff.  According to some of you I don't meet the requirements to be a CAP officer because I don't have a college degree even though I've been there and done that.

I guess I'll just give back my leaves and take my stripes.  Oh yeah as PHall said I should give up being a TAC Officer at cadet encampments, something I do every year, because you can't be a TAC Officer as an NCO and have a LT as your assistant.

[MIKE]

How to make NCOs work... Make slots that only NCOs can fill and have significantly less officer slots which also have clearly defined officer type roles. e.g.  If your the Middleofnowhereville Composite Squadron and you can only really support X folks.... You become the Middleofnowhereville Flight commanded by a junior officer... with nearly everyone else as an NCO or airman.

[ColonelJack]

This whole thread is useless, the NB or NEC is NOT going to make any ideas brought up here on grade into a regulation. So many of these ideas sound fine until you look at a larger picture and see the problems these ideas would produce.

Bill, I think you have hit the nail on its round, flat head.

This entire thread is an exercise in "What If," because let's face it -- no one with suggestions here has the power and/or authority to change the way the CAP grade structure is set up, and those in such positions are simply not going to change it.

They may add to it (the proposed CAP NCO corps) but they're not going to change it.

With all respect to all of you (many of whom I find myself in agreement with), I have to say this is yet another attempt to fix something that isn't broken.  The changes suggested may look good on the small-scale, but when you get to the larger scale (i.e., a National scale), you're creating more problems than you're solving.

Jack

[RiverAux]

This entire thread is an exercise in "What If," because let's face it -- no one with suggestions here has the power and/or authority to change the way the CAP grade structure is set up, and those in such positions are simply not going to change it.

As is the case with 90% of the stuff discussed on the board.  Not much different about this one.

[Short Field]

They dont care if we arent "real military"  we look like it and act like it, and it confuses them to see Majors doing airman work and certainly puts a bad taste in their mouth for the organization to deal officer to officer with someone that the best they can do is work at the local quickie-mart...

You are extremely right that they don't care if we aren't real military.  Back in basic training we were briefed on CAP.  Sort of a "if you see them, be nice, give the proper courtesy their rank requires, and don't worry about it."  It had less emotional impact than news of a new McDonalds opening up outside the base.

However, I am very confused as to what is "airman work"?  Could you please expand on that?

[capchiro]

As a major in the Georgia State Defense Force, I was assigned to police the local area along with other captains, majors, and colonels, which meant we were outside, in uniform, picking up cigarette butts.  That is what would be referred to as enlisted or airman work in my opinion.  I have seen and heard how great the State Defense forces are, but from my humble view point, CAP is years ahead of them in almost all areas.  As far as the rank structure in CAP, I think it is fine and only occasionally do I see an officer that I would question as to why he/she is the rank they are.  Since we are a volunteer group and have to allow almost everyone in, there will occasionally be someone that slips through the cracks.  I really feel that any problems we have are because of a poor commander as all promotions require the approval of the immediate commander... I think we all have lot to be proud of and should work to improve the personnel we have instead of trying to figure out how to hold people down or change our structure and Regs, which have worked remarkably well for maybe 60 or so years.  As usual, just my opinion and your mileage may vary..

[O-Rex]

I know we've visited this topic before, but this is the first time in years that the NB is visiting the issue.

The idea has merit: there are folks in CAP that hold officer grades with no real leadership ambitions, and become what I call "1st Lt > 25," which for the most part doesn't exist in the U.S. Military.   Remember that the goal of military officers is to seek command: relatively few in CAP actually do.  I mean really: How many dysfunctional/ineffective CAP "Officers" do you know?

Having an experienced  Senior Enlisted Advisor for units has the potential to raise the bar for the organization as a whole (provided that it's done right.)  They do it in ROTC, and it works quite well.

On the other hand, creating an NCO infrastructure where none existed before presents some unique and interesting problems.  Will we create an NCO corps to fill a need, or will it be a need to be filled?

Will there be restrictions on what jobs they can/can't do in CAP?  What will the service/performance/PME requirements for advancement entail?  What incentive will there be for someone to pursue a CAP Enlisted track?  Once upon a time CAP had more NCO's, where there are virtually none today: what happened?

If this is to be an effective endeavor that can potentially benefit the organization, much thought and planning needs to go into it.

[RiverAux]

Having an experienced  Senior Enlisted Advisor for units has the potential to raise the bar for the organization as a whole (provided that it's done right.)  They do it in ROTC, and it works quite well.

You're forgetting that we've already got plenty of NCOs wearing officers rank in CAP right now.  If they had the gumption to speak up for "standards" they would already be doing so. 

[O-Rex]

Having an experienced  Senior Enlisted Advisor for units has the potential to raise the bar for the organization as a whole (provided that it's done right.)  They do it in ROTC, and it works quite well.

You're forgetting that we've already got plenty of NCOs wearing officers rank in CAP right now.  If they had the gumption to speak up for "standards" they would already be doing so. 

I haven't forgotten: I'm a former NCO myself, but unless someone asks, or recognizes a ribbon or two, folks won't know.

Also, having been a commander and staff at various levels, I don't function as a CAP member like I did when I was an NCO: it's a different environment, and I'm in a different role.

What's important is VISIBILITY: the site of a member with stripes & rockers gives a different impression, particularly on cadets.  Moreover, the starndards and conduct of a professional NCO can have a lasting positive effect on the budding future leaders that we develop.

Again, this is a good opportunity, if done right....

[RiverAux]

Please explain exactly what is keeping you from setting such a great example now (I assume you're a great example)?  A guy with CAP Captain's bars can be just as much an example to cadets and other senior members. 

[O-Rex]

Please explain exactly what is keeping you from setting such a great example now (I assume you're a great example)?  A guy with CAP Captain's bars can be just as much an example to cadets and other senior members. 

What's keeping me from setting the example to others?  Nothing at all: I'd like to think that I am doing so every day.  However, I'm not doing it as a CAP NCO.

I've seen NCO-turned-squadron-commanders who try to be NCO's in running their units: it doesn't quite work.

If this CAP NCO-thing is to work, much must be done to give the position the prestige that it's due: like the Regimental Sergeant-Major at Sandhurst (who's by far the most squared-away NCO in the free world: one spoke at my PLDC graduation in 1985.)  He, his staff NCO's and all the officer cadre set a sterling example for cadets, but as the Top NCO, he enjoys that flavorful "certain something" that no one else has...

Regarless of experience, or what you wear/wore on your other uniform sleeves, you can't duplicate that as a Lt/Capt/Maj/Col (CAP or Military) It's not better or worse, just different.

[Short Field]

Moreover, the starndards and conduct of a professional NCO can have a lasting positive effect on the budding future leaders that we develop.

Must have been asleep at the wheel - I really don't remember any NCOs conducting training when I was a cadet.  Basic training while enlisted - oh yes!  The naval services do use NCOs to train their officers - but I can't remember the AF doing so.

[RiverAux]

I've seen NCO-turned-squadron-commanders who try to be NCO's in running their units: it doesn't quite work.

More than likely it was an issue with a former military person (of any rank) trying to run a CAP unit -- an often discussed issue here.