November NEC Meeting - NCO Corps

[Dragoon]

You are correct that for rank matter, it has to be linked to position.

ES will always be a little off, because a person's place in the institutional heirarchy (squadron, group, wing, etc) is not likely to be the same as their place in the current mission heirarchy (based on their current appointed ES job).

So....if we decide rank is worth having, and we're sick of it being just an award for sitting through some classes.

1.  Make everyone flight officers, and make it clear that FO grade is a training award, and carries no specific responsibility or authority (80% of your problem cleared up right here)

2.  Appoint temporary commissiond officers from among the qualfied (whatever that ends up meaning) to fill leadership billets.  When you leave the job, you go back to your flight officer grade.

That way, the guys with the rank are the guys in charge.  Simple.

Now, to keep things from getting too out of control, you link commissioned rank to both position AND training.  A Level IV guy in the Wing Chief of Staff Job gets to be a Lt Col.  A Level II guy in the same job only gets Captain.  But as soon as he gets level III, he gets "promoted" to major as long as he's still in that job.

The only downside are those that want to hold the grade without actually doing the work.  I've got no answer for that one. 

I recently finished an 0-5 job.  I'm now doing an 0-2 job.  I'd have no problem with a "demotion."  And if I ever decide to be just a pilot/GTL for a while, I'd be happy to revert to FO grade and salute the guys in charge.

Others, no doubt, feel differently.

[Falshrmjgr]

Gonna roll these together....

Ok Falshrmjgr, I do see your point. you made some sense on that last post and I agree with alot of what you had to say, you are on the right path. I would however disagree with paramedics being only TSgt, a paramedic these days is highly trained in emergency medicine and in Texas they are licensed. I would give them warrant officer rank. an EMT is just fine at SSgt and an EMT-I could be a TSgt.

  I agree that CAP needs to have a better use of the rank/grade system. maybe we would become more palatable to the Air Force.

So it seems people are postulating three "career tracks" in CAP:

Officers - for the above average, college educated high-speed types.

Flight Officers - for pilots not fitting into the "Officer" category

Enlisted - for those who would be "an embarrassment" as officers.

The big problem (besides the totally patronizing attitude towards enlisted) will be recruiting:

RECRUITER: "So, Senior Master D - would you be interested in joining CAP's enlisted corps?"

SMS D (who has 2 associate degrees, 1 bachelor degree and a graduate certificate) "You mean the "no degree, working in a car wash, living in a trailer, 'short bus special'" category?  Let me get back to you on that..."

You might be well on your way to setting up a chasm b/w officer and enlisted that even a Victorian-era British Army officer might consider "a little extreme."

Both of these are based on a disparagement of the NCO Corps in the military that is outdated at best.

Firstly, I can guarantee you that a Special Forces Trained Medical NCO (MOS 18D) is one of the most highly trained medical professionals in the world.  On completion of training, most are promoted to Sergeant/E5.  They are not only licensed paramedics, but trained in veterinary medicine, battle field surgery, as well how to equip train and lead a full company of indigenous fighters.

Secondly, I would challenge you to find a Senior NCO in any branch of service that feels "Patronized" by being a lowly NCO.  In point of fact, NCO's are prized and valued by officers at all levels.  It is no longer, and had not been for several decades, anything resembling the Victorian era British model.

NCO's are leaders, and experts at their craft.  They are the backbone of any military, and are treated with as much, if nor more respect than most officers.  Their role is different in that they work at the small unit level, and usually have longer longevity with a unit than an officer.  They provide not only leadership and guidance, they provide the continuity of a unit, and are keepers of tradition, enforcers of standards, and the voice of common sense.

Take the Tech Sergeant example.  A T/Sgt has been in the Air Force around a decade, is  what the Marines would call a "Staff NCO" and is accorded much respect and responsibility.  Anyone who thinks that being made a T/Sgt is an insult should have their head examined.

As far as being an "Embarassment," nothing could be further from the truth.  No one in the military expects that a 2LT has got his head screwed on straight yet.  A T/Sgt is expected to be knowledgeable, professional, and a subject matter expert.

[edit]  In point of fact, why do you think so many prior military CHOOSE to wear NCO grade in CAP?  Because they feel patronized?  Or because they are extremely proud of their accomplishments and careers?

[JohnKachenmeister]

When you explain CAP to Army folks in Army-ese:

"All positions in CAP below Wing commander are grade-immaterial, and unit integrity is not an issue, since every mision generates a separate Task Force organization under a qualified Incident Commander.  Units exist to provide command structure in support of individual training, and to provide a military structure to support the cadet training program."

The CAP picture becomes somewhat clearer.

If the decision was made to keep CAP as an all-officer force, I would support the idea of having both commissioned and flight officers for the same reason the Army does.  Warrant officer pilots are worker bees, as are warrant officer CID special agents.  We give them officer rank, but they are, basically, still just troops, albeit VERY highly specialized troops.

The decision, however, seems to have been made to have CAP as a mixed officer-enlisted force.

My mind is still open, and I still think the result will be improvement in the long term of the officer force.

[BillB]

The idea of non-service members wearing only corporate uniforms, no AF style uniforms on a scale of 1-10 is a zero. I can see it now, cadets turn 21 and say bye-bye to CAP. Retention would go through the floor. There have invested funds into the AF style uniforms now they have to buy all new uniforms. There may be as high as 5% of the cadets that would turn senior.
On another idea of demoting to flight officer positioins those not in command positions. Does that mean the National Commander goes from MG to FO at the end of his term? Or what about the LCol that went through ECI 13, SOS, ACSC and AWC. Or what about the FO that wants to take SOS?  Sorry, but Air University requires Capt to take that course.
This whole thread is useless, the NB or NEC is NOT going to make any ideas brought up here on grade into a regulation. So many of these ideas sound fine until you look at a larger picture and see the problems these ideas would produce.

[star1151]

Pilots who just want to fly, should be Warrant Officers.  If they could to the point where they are leading, commission them appropriately.

I'm a little confused about why everyone seems to be lumping pilots into the warrant officer category.  IIRC, the only branch to do that is the Army, everyone else requires a college degree and officer status.  It also seems odd that people want so many restrictions on officer status when the RM doesn't seem to have that many (you know, I could go to OCS tomorrow and be a RM officer, but would be stuck as a warrant officer in CAP)

[RiverAux]

And to bring things back to what is actually on the table.... is anyone but me  interersted in what is actually on the table for discussion at the NEC?

SUBJECT: CAP NCO Corps
GLR/CC – Col Carr
INFORMATION BACKGROUND:
In May 2007, the National Commander appointed a working group to investigate the possibility of developing a viable NCO corps within the senior member program. The group has been researching a number of issues that affect the ability of NCOs to become a more meaningful part of Civil Air Patrol. While current regulations allow former military NCOs to retain their NCO grade in CAP, there are no provisions for these members to earn any further promotions. In order to attract qualified former NCOs to the program, we need a mechanism to allow them to progress in the program in the same manner as the senior member officers. The ability to earn future promotions would be the first step toward fully integrating the NCO grades into the overall structure of the organization.  

Additionally, some new members do not wish to obtain officer grades or are better suited to the NCO corps. Currently, this is not an option unless these individuals have previously served as enlisted members of the Armed Forces. The ability to bring new members in at the enlisted grades appears to be the next step toward developing a fully functioning NCO corps.  

Since the Air Force has retained control of the CAP grade structure, it will be necessary to request their approval to change the current NCO grade restrictions; however, this cannot be done until specific criteria have been established.

PROPOSED NEC ACTION:
That the National Executive Committee vote to approve the concept of future promotions for former military NCOs; task the working group to develop promotion criteria for each grade, and present a proposal to the May 2008 NEC.  Also, approve the working group to consider concept of individuals without prior military service being eligible for promotion to NCO grades. The working group is to develop a program for these individuals to earn NCO grades through CAP participation and training. This plan should be presented to the summer 2008 National Board for consideration.

ESTIMATED FUNDING IMPACT:
To be determined.
CAP NATIONAL HEADQUARTERS' COMMENTS:
The NHQ staff provided assistance to the initial NCO Working Group and will continue to provide support as necessary.
CAP-USAF HEADQUARTERS' COMMENTS:
Concur with action as drafted above.
DCS / NATIONAL STAFF COMMENTS:
To be presented.
REGULATIONS AND FORMS AFFECTED:
CAPR 35-5, CAP Officer and NCO Promotions and Appointments

May I suggest we stick to that topic?  Dig back into the archives and there are multiple threads focused on wholesale reorganization of the CAP rank system.

[lordmonar]

Well the bottom line is still:

Why do we need an NCO corps?

What will their duties be?

How will they progress?

How will they fit into our current structure?

I'll wait and see what the working group comes up with.

[afgeo4]

I don't have a college degree, and I am FOR the addition of an NCO program.
I would even latterally move my own O4 grade over!

-Ace

Can't really move an O-4 laterally into an E grade... Lateral means equal. E anything is below O anything. Thus, the move would always be downward.

However, I too would become an NCO IF that meant that I would become part of a system where most members are enlisted. Where members come in as Airmen unless they have college degrees and some leadership skills/training. That would mean that most of the work would be done by enlisted people while command authority would rest with officers who are very qualified to lead. Now... do I think we'll have enough officers to fill the ranks? Probably, if we restructure our units a bit. Truthfully, we only need 2-5 officers per squadron of 30-50 people. Having NCO's and SNCO's would keep the span of control proper while grade would finally mean something to us and outside agencies.

Pilots, lawyers, doctors, nurses and other professionals would receive an officer's grade, but would have to go through OTS, the way State Guard members go through OCS before being commissioned. Just because you're a professional, doesn't mean you shouldn't need to know how to be a leader. OTS would also be required for those who have a baccalaureate degree, but no leadership experience.

All of our missions would be fulfilled... Pilots would be officers, aircrew - mostly enlisted. Officers would be hard to come by, so recruiting would move become a priority, but... leadership of units will be handled by experienced and deserving people. Promotions for officers would be hard to come by after O-3. Promotions for enlisted would be difficult past E-7. All that would effectively strengthen our membership and organization through better personnel development and higher expectations. From that we'll gain confidence and proficiency. Many of our current problems will go away. Of course, there'll be new ones, but that's a challenge I think our members are able to face.

If those aren't met, I'm sticking to what I am... a meaningless Captain.

[RiverAux]

The average CAP squadron has about 30 people on paper and about 10-15 of those are already functionally "enlisted" (everybody always forgets cadets in this discussion).  Probably half your seniors won't really be active anyway. 

[afgeo4]

The average CAP squadron has about 30 people on paper and about 10-15 of those are already functionally "enlisted" (everybody always forgets cadets in this discussion).  Probably half your seniors won't really be active anyway. 

Yup... turn small squadrons into flights with one officer (flight commander) in charge. The rest will be enlisted members preforming current tasks: training of cadets, ES, AE, and staff positions. Account for manning in a REAL way. We can't manage an organization effectively if we don't know what or who we're managing, right? Advise your commanders on ACTIVE rosters, not inactive ones. What's active? Satisfactory performance of assigned duties, of course.

[RiverAux]

Well, as long as we're turning the whole organization upside down for nothing that couldn't be accomplished with our current system, lets re-arrange the organizational structure at the same time. 

Now, I don't think everything CAP does right now is the best way, but unlike many at least I recognize that CAP has managed to make it 65+ years with all of these burning problems that are apparently the downfall of the organization. 

[Short Field]

CAP has managed to make it 65+ years with all of these burning problems that are apparently the downfall of the organization. 

  If it's not broke, don't fix it.

[LittleIronPilot]

Point taken on CG Aux...see one does learn something new everyday!

[DrJbdm]

well, I hope the NEC runs with the idea and does a great job of presenting a workable plan by next summer. They will surely have many questions and problems to figure out, but if you get the right people who can think outside the box then I'm sure they can come up with a really workable plan.

  Keep in mind it won't please everybody but then again that shouldn't be the objective. The objective is to create a more professional CAP that builds our image up and raises the perception of us to the public and to the Air Force and Military at large.

[ddelaney103]

well, I hope the NEC runs with the idea and does a great job of presenting a workable plan by next summer. They will surely have many questions and problems to figure out, but if you get the right people who can think outside the box then I'm sure they can come up with a really workable plan.

  Keep in mind it won't please everybody but then again that shouldn't be the objective. The objective is to create a more professional CAP that builds our image up and raises the perception of us to the public and to the Air Force and Military at large.

And how exactly does having a NCO corps achieve this goal?

[SeattleSarge]

Gonna roll these together....
Secondly, I would challenge you to find a Senior NCO in any branch of service that feels "Patronized" by being a lowly NCO.  In point of fact, NCO's are prized and valued by officers at all levels.  It is no longer, and had not been for several decades, anything resembling the Victorian era British model.

NCO's are leaders, and experts at their craft.  They are the backbone of any military, and are treated with as much, if nor more respect than most officers.  Their role is different in that they work at the small unit level, and usually have longer longevity with a unit than an officer.  They provide not only leadership and guidance, they provide the continuity of a unit, and are keepers of tradition, enforcers of standards, and the voice of common sense.

Take the Tech Sergeant example.  A T/Sgt has been in the Air Force around a decade, is  what the Marines would call a "Staff NCO" and is accorded much respect and responsibility.  Anyone who thinks that being made a T/Sgt is an insult should have their head examined.

As far as being an "Embarassment," nothing could be further from the truth.  No one in the military expects that a 2LT has got his head screwed on straight yet.  A T/Sgt is expected to be knowledgeable, professional, and a subject matter expert.

[edit]  In point of fact, why do you think so many prior military CHOOSE to wear NCO grade in CAP?  Because they feel patronized?  Or because they are extremely proud of their accomplishments and careers?

Finally, someone on topic and who understands what NCO's are all about...  Bravo Zulu

-SeattleSarge

[sarmed1]

We are looking at  things from an active duty perspective also, in the RES/Guard system they are very NCO heavy.  I have been deployed with techs and masters doing airman work, because you do pretty much get promoted for time in service, time in grade and completing some PME.  I have come upon a number of reserve NCO's that have the leadership ability of a wet towel...

I do think it is a credibility issue, especially when interacting with the AD/Guard or reserve types.  They dont care if we arent "real military"  we look like it and act like it, and it confuses them to see Majors doing airman work and certainly puts a bad taste in their mouth for the organization to deal officer to officer with someone that the best they can do is work at the local quickie-mart...

mk

[ddelaney103]

Gonna roll these together....
Secondly, I would challenge you to find a Senior NCO in any branch of service that feels "Patronized" by being a lowly NCO.  In point of fact, NCO's are prized and valued by officers at all levels.  It is no longer, and had not been for several decades, anything resembling the Victorian era British model.

NCO's are leaders, and experts at their craft.  They are the backbone of any military, and are treated with as much, if nor more respect than most officers.  Their role is different in that they work at the small unit level, and usually have longer longevity with a unit than an officer.  They provide not only leadership and guidance, they provide the continuity of a unit, and are keepers of tradition, enforcers of standards, and the voice of common sense.

Take the Tech Sergeant example.  A T/Sgt has been in the Air Force around a decade, is  what the Marines would call a "Staff NCO" and is accorded much respect and responsibility.  Anyone who thinks that being made a T/Sgt is an insult should have their head examined.

As far as being an "Embarassment," nothing could be further from the truth.  No one in the military expects that a 2LT has got his head screwed on straight yet.  A T/Sgt is expected to be knowledgeable, professional, and a subject matter expert.

[edit]  In point of fact, why do you think so many prior military CHOOSE to wear NCO grade in CAP?  Because they feel patronized?  Or because they are extremely proud of their accomplishments and careers?

Finally, someone on topic and who understands what NCO's are all about...  Bravo Zulu

-SeattleSarge

The question is not what NCO's are in the military (being a Senior Master Sgt, I am well aware of what that is like), but what they would be in CAP.

There have been a few people who have been saying if we had an NCO track, we wouldn't have these embarrassments as field grades, they'd be NCO's.  If these people are embarrassments, we should get rid of them, not give them stripes.

It is true that in the military there are people better suited to being NCO's than officers, but that doesn't matter in CAP.  Here officers and NCO's do basically the same job so it's a matter of personal choice rather than temperament.  We have piles of current/former NCO's who decided to be CAP officers because that's the standard path for all Senior Members.  I don't understand how they would suddenly be more productive if they were CAP NCO's instead.  My professionalism is not magically bound to my stripes and unaccessible in an officer's uniform.

So, I'm still waiting for someone to finish the sentence that starts, "A CAP NCO corps will make for a better CAP because..."

[JohnKachenmeister]

You might have a long wait on that sentence completion.  I'm not even certain what the CAP NCO program will look like.  I know what I think it should be, but my thinking and NHQ's thinking are sometimes divergent.

As to the "Embarrassing" folks.  Let me clarify.

IF we have a program with higher standards to become an officer, and with an enlisted track, the people accepted for service as an officer would have to show some degree of life achievement after high school.  The person with a college degree, OR a private pilot license, OR who has completed a 6-month trade school has demonstrated the ability to do a few things in his personal life:

1.  Analyze his situation and resources, and establish a goal.

2.  Determine a plan for achieving that goal, including a plan for unding that goal.

3.  Use time effectively, plan intermediate tasks, measure and verify progress toward the goal.

These are precisely the qualities we look for in officers.  Add to the mix a pretty fair training program, and these people are much LESS likely (although there are no guarantees in life) to be perceived by others as incompetent clowns and posers if they are wearing officer rank.

Others would enter CAP as enlisted.  Before an enlisted rose up to NCO rank, he would be in a position to perform various duties.  If he is, in fact, a boob, (and we have all seen these guys) I think he would have less of an impact on our overall organizational image if he were "Senior Airman Boob" as opposed to "First Lieutenant Boob."

I have taken some flame for my comments, and I knew I would.  Some have accused me of denigrating the enlisted rank and of being patronizing.  Nobody has accused me of being wrong on this issue.  (But the evening is still young.)

[stillamarine]

The person with a college degree, OR a private pilot license, OR who has completed a 6-month trade school has demonstrated the ability to do a few things in his personal life:

I have neither of those things. Yet I still have risen to become an Operations Manager for the 2nd largest Security company in the world. Does this mean I can't:

1.  Analyze his situation and resources, and establish a goal.

2.  Determine a plan for achieving that goal, including a plan for unding that goal.

3.  Use time effectively, plan intermediate tasks, measure and verify progress toward the goal.

Well, guess I'm stuck with being an airman.