November NEC Meeting - NCO Corps

[Flying Pig]

If you think the arguments about us acting like military officers is comical just wait until we have a non- prior military CAP Chief Master Sgt walking around base.

[Hawk200]

And there it goes again, we're not "real" officers, because we don't have commisions. Maybe we don't do any real work because we're not actual military. My CAP timeclock would beg to differ.

NCO Corps? Why not? The only thing we have to be really concerned with is whether or not these new CAP specific NCO's are utilized properly, and not just new ranks to have.

Second, is this about an NCO corps, or an enlisted corps? I can imagine that there would a few "real" military NCO's that might get up in arms if someone comes in as a slicksleeve and promotes to a Staff Sergeant six months later. If they want to start at the bottom, I'd be a little more supportive of the program. But straight to NCO stripes? I think that's improper.

I personally don't have a problem with a promotion method for CAP NCO's. At present, current and former military officers can do it, but NCO's can't. A little inequitable.

Stripping CAP of miltary culture is a sure way to kill what it is. There are other organizations that have military trappings, but no military commissions. There's nothing wrong with having officers that aren't commisioned. It's rank that shows experience, that's all. Anyone concerned about having a commision  so they can boss around enlisted isn't really here for the right reasons. Stripping officer ranks won't really change them.

Just want to be a flying club? There's plenty around. No reason to tank CAP to create one.

If you think the arguments about us acting like military officers is comical just wait until we have a non- prior military CAP Chief Master Sgt walking around base.

Hopefully, that won't be an issue. If they do create an NCO corps, I hope it caps off at Master or Senior. We cap at LTC on the officer side, an NCO side should have caps too.

I do feel that if we do create an NCO corps, we need distinctive CAP NCO insignia. We can't wear blue epaulets on our blues, our own CAP NCO's need something distinctive as well.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm keeping an open mind on this issue.

I personally think this will be an avenue for volunteers who are valuable, but not up to the quality needed to wear military officer rank.

Yes, I'm sure I will be called an elitist, but I had to earn an officer commission, had to have a bachelor degree, and had to undergo an intense training program.  This was after achieving SSG rank in the Army.  Not everybody can do it, we lost more than half of our original OCS class between the first formation and graduation.  We lost one between the first formation and lunch.

That being said, I really find it odd that in CAP a guy with a GED who works as a fender-polisher at the Kwik-Kleen Kar Wash is a lieutenant if he can stay awake through a video on how to salute.

I see this as a way of improving the image of the CAP officer corps, if nothing else.  We can impose some higher standards, and we will still be able to accept Mr. Kwik-Kleen as an enlisted volunteer.

[PHall]

Unless we are also talking about restructuring the officer corps, creating an NCO corps seems silly.

There already IS a CAP NCO corps.  All we are asking is that it be formalized and we have an opportunity for promotion like other senior members.

-SeattleSarge

Yeah, a Corps that numbers under a hundred, if that many.
A Corps that no one knows what to do with.
A Corps where it's members are restricted from some duties such as Tactical Officers (gasp!!!, can't have an "officer" working for an NCO!).

You come up with a "workable" plan to use NCO's and you might just have something.
But all I've seen from the Chief is nothing but eyewash, if that.

And yes, I did the NCO thing for a couple of years and gave it up because of the hassles.

[RiverAux]

It is odd how we have stumbled our way into this situation where to be a CAP NCO you must have had to be one in the military while anyone can become an officer. 

[Eclipse]

A Corps where it's members are restricted from some duties such as Tactical Officers (gasp!!!, can't have an "officer" working for an NCO!).

I assume you're being factitious - there are no restrictions based on grade in CAP.

Edit: Corrected typo.

[SarDragon]

A Corps where it's members are restricted from some duties such as Tactical Officers (gasp!!!, can't have an "officer" working for an NCO!).

I assume you're being factitious - there are no restrictions on based on grade in CAP.

Which do you mean, Bob?

fac·ti·tious
ADJECTIVE:

Produced artificially rather than by a natural process.
Lacking authenticity or genuineness; sham: speculators responsible for the factitious value of some stocks.

or

fa·ce·tious
ADJECTIVE:

Playfully jocular; humorous: facetious remarks.

[Eclipse]

Number 2.

[PHall]

A Corps where it's members are restricted from some duties such as Tactical Officers (gasp!!!, can't have an "officer" working for an NCO!).

I assume you're being factitious - there are no restrictions based on grade in CAP.

Edit: Corrected typo.

No I'm not.

Did an Encampment as a Primary Tactical Officer as a MSgt and my Assistant was a 1st Lt.
The Assistant didn't have a problem with it at all (former cadet who I had worked with since their Basic Encampment).

Some of the "powers that be" had a real problem with a "officer" working for an NCO.
Personally I think that all senior NCO's should have a pet Lieutenant or two.

So I decided to "take one for the team" and revert back to my CAP Lt Col grade just to end the hassles.

[Eclipse]

((*sigh*))

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever this is true, and you probably did the right thing in not pushing it because they are way bigger fish to fry, however whomever made an issue of it obviously needs to:

A: Have a refresher course in what CAP is, and is >not<.

B: Get over themselves.

My Lord (not YOU Lord), the things we make an issue of, no wonder we've got problems.

[Dragoon]

I'm keeping an open mind on this issue.

I personally think this will be an avenue for volunteers who are valuable, but not up to the quality needed to wear military officer rank.

Yes, I'm sure I will be called an elitist, but I had to earn an officer commission, had to have a bachelor degree, and had to undergo an intense training program.  This was after achieving SSG rank in the Army.  Not everybody can do it, we lost more than half of our original OCS class between the first formation and graduation.  We lost one between the first formation and lunch.

That being said, I really find it odd that in CAP a guy with a GED who works as a fender-polisher at the Kwik-Kleen Kar Wash is a lieutenant if he can stay awake through a video on how to salute.

I see this as a way of improving the image of the CAP officer corps, if nothing else.  We can impose some higher standards, and we will still be able to accept Mr. Kwik-Kleen as an enlisted volunteer.

It's an interesting idea, and I see your point.  But I don't think it will fly.

For example, let's say they decide to require college degrees for officers, and if you don't have one you're an NCO.

First, real NCOs with college degrees complain that now the NCO corps is just the "not good enough to be officers" corps.  In other words, the special ed class.

Second, does that mean pilots without college degrees are sergeants?  Not something USAF has done in quite some time.

Third, does that mean that a Wing Commander without a college degree is just a Chief?



I think the only way having officers and NCOs in CAP is to decide on jobs.  Restrict certain jobs to NCOs and certain jobs to officers.  That way we have some kind of reason to have both.

But this won't work - because a unit is gonna work with the folks it has.  Can't just requisition an NCO to fill your transportation sergeant billet.  Some CAP major is gonna end up filling it.  And if a unit has nothing but NCOs, one of them is gonna be the commander, regardless of what's on his sleeves.



The proposal says  "Additionally, some new members do not wish to obtain officer grades or are better
suited to the NCO corps. "

Okay, what does that mean "better suited to the NCO corps?"  If we had some freakin' idea of what the JOB of the NCO corps was, this would make more sense.  But since it has no job, no assigned exclusive functions,I think it ends up meaning "doesn't have the social skills to act like an officer."  Which is NOT a good criteria to set up a separate grade structure.

[Psicorp]

A Corps where it's members are restricted from some duties such as Tactical Officers (gasp!!!, can't have an "officer" working for an NCO!).

I assume you're being factitious - there are no restrictions based on grade in CAP.

Edit: Corrected typo.

No I'm not.

Did an Encampment as a Primary Tactical Officer as a MSgt and my Assistant was a 1st Lt.
The Assistant didn't have a problem with it at all (former cadet who I had worked with since their Basic Encampment).

Some of the "powers that be" had a real problem with a "officer" working for an NCO.
Personally I think that all senior NCO's should have a pet Lieutenant or two.

So I decided to "take one for the team" and revert back to my CAP Lt Col grade just to end the hassles.

That's what happens in the Armed Forces.  A Lieutenant fresh out of OCS quickly makes nice with a seasoned NCO and learns from him/her. The worst thing an Officer can do is to ignore the experience of an NCO.     

[jimmydeanno]

You could try it the way the cadets do...start at AB and work through to Lt Col.  It would change the 5 levels to 13 levels (no we don't need ribbons for them all so don't even think about the uniform accessory discussion).  Put say 1 year between the "enlisted" grades (8yrs to chief) and 2 between the officer ones (8yrs from 2d Lt - Lt Col).

This would eliminate the segregation based on education or skills and provide promotion opportunities to individuals based on their skill IN CAP.  Throw a few promotion readiness evals and some schools in there and WHAMO, people get training, etc.

Education type stuff in CAP can then be more spread out and people aren't going to expect much from a CAP Amn because in the eyes of the AF and CAP Amn have little experience.

Educational "requirements" could then be modified to more closely match AF reqs.

To become an CAP Amn you need to complete CAP "Basic Training" a weekend course like SLS.
To become a CAP SSgt you need to complete CAP ALS which would be a weekend course to learn how to manage small teams and be a low level staff assistant.
To become a CAP MSgt you need to complete CAP SNCO Academy which would cover how to manage bigger teams, etc.  
To become a CAP 2d Lt you need to complete CAP OCS which acclimates you to the differences between "officers and NCOs" and more "management" aspects of CAP - low level CAP Officer staff assignments and such.
To become a CAP Capt you'd complete CAP SOS. (RSC equivalent)
To become a CAP Lt Col you'd complete CAP ACSC (NSC equivalent)

It may take a little while to develop, but then you could take into consideration prior service personnel, check off their equivalencies because they've already done "time in service"  Then you have a 16 year Lt Col rather than a 9.

Just a beginning to a thought.

[ddelaney103]

It is odd how we have stumbled our way into this situation where to be a CAP NCO you must have had to be one in the military while anyone can become an officer. 

That's easy - it's because we really didn't want NCO's.

We used to have both (before my time) but people didn't want to be second class citizens so they decided to go all officer.

The only reason we have NCO's is to accommodate prior service types who had useful skills but felt odd about being officers.  We gave them the stripes but told them they couldn't progress - which worked OK.  But we get this drumbeat of wanting to "fix the system" when I don't think it can be fixed.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I'm keeping an open mind on this issue.

I personally think this will be an avenue for volunteers who are valuable, but not up to the quality needed to wear military officer rank.

Yes, I'm sure I will be called an elitist, but I had to earn an officer commission, had to have a bachelor degree, and had to undergo an intense training program.  This was after achieving SSG rank in the Army.  Not everybody can do it, we lost more than half of our original OCS class between the first formation and graduation.  We lost one between the first formation and lunch.

That being said, I really find it odd that in CAP a guy with a GED who works as a fender-polisher at the Kwik-Kleen Kar Wash is a lieutenant if he can stay awake through a video on how to salute.

I see this as a way of improving the image of the CAP officer corps, if nothing else.  We can impose some higher standards, and we will still be able to accept Mr. Kwik-Kleen as an enlisted volunteer.

It's an interesting idea, and I see your point.  But I don't think it will fly.

For example, let's say they decide to require college degrees for officers, and if you don't have one you're an NCO.

First, real NCOs with college degrees complain that now the NCO corps is just the "not good enough to be officers" corps.  In other words, the special ed class.

Second, does that mean pilots without college degrees are sergeants?  Not something USAF has done in quite some time.

Third, does that mean that a Wing Commander without a college degree is just a Chief?



I think the only way having officers and NCOs in CAP is to decide on jobs.  Restrict certain jobs to NCOs and certain jobs to officers.  That way we have some kind of reason to have both.

But this won't work - because a unit is gonna work with the folks it has.  Can't just requisition an NCO to fill your transportation sergeant billet.  Some CAP major is gonna end up filling it.  And if a unit has nothing but NCOs, one of them is gonna be the commander, regardless of what's on his sleeves.



The proposal says  "Additionally, some new members do not wish to obtain officer grades or are better
suited to the NCO corps. "

Okay, what does that mean "better suited to the NCO corps?"  If we had some freakin' idea of what the JOB of the NCO corps was, this would make more sense.  But since it has no job, no assigned exclusive functions,I think it ends up meaning "doesn't have the social skills to act like an officer."  Which is NOT a good criteria to set up a separate grade structure.

Personally, I can't argue with you, Dragoon.  You make some valid points.  Like I said at the beginning of the last post, I'm keeping an open mind.

We do NOT know what form, or what jobs, this new enlisted-NCO thing will take.  Discussing it seems to be a bit premature.  But, just for speculation purposes, what would you say to this:

A person joining CAP is qualified for officer rank if he meets any of the following criteria:

1.  An Associate or higher degree.

2.  2 years of college completed toward a Bachelor degree.

3.  Private pilot rating or higher.

4.  Completion of a post-secondary trade school course consisting of at least 1,000 clock hours.

Otherwise, the person joins as an enlisted person.  

This would screen out the people who score pretty low on the accomplishment scale, but would not be unnecessarily exclusive or elitist.

[TankerT]

While to many of us, CAP rank is just that, CAP rank.

I wonder how many of us feel that way because you can earn it with little challenge.  (Now you can go the hard route, and do SOS and ACSC if you want...)

But, if you can not fall asleep at an SLS, CLC, RSC... and pay dues for X number of years, you can be a Lt Col.

I think we all know some Lt Cols that frankly have a hard time figuring out how buttons on their shirts work, and can't even speak or write in complete sentences.

While to many of us, we think it's no big deal, because to a point CAP grade is considered a joke.  (Some of us thin otherwise mind you.) 

But, it's those "officers" that make you wonder... also make many of our "customers" and the military wonder.

Most people in this organization agree that we need to find new missions, and possibly new customers... to survive.  And, part of that selling point... is to have a professional image.  And, having an officer corps that has more stringent standards COULD (could is emphasized) help with some of that image issue.

Why do you think companies spend so much on advertising and packaging.  "Image is everything."  And, we lose credibility with Lt Col Tentpeg who doesn't understand politics, interagency-operations, or verbs shows up and embarrasses us in front of the county sheriff.  Lets face us, MOST of our customers or potential customers understand our rank system to a point. (Even if it is from TV...) And, if that is what we have for a Lt Col... what do we have for 1st Lts?  (Hey... it has been asked....)

So, I could see how an enlisted corps COULD bring some credibility to our image with external customers.  (Hey, it has to be implemented correctly... we all know that... what we don't know is what is correctly... and we probably all have different opinions on what that is.)

And, yes, there can be some issues with creating an enlisted corps for everyone... but... we also have problems with the current system.

Which one in the long run will be better for our organization?

[DrJbdm]

John,  I think those are great ideas and they seem very fair. However I would change the language up just a bit.  I think it should read more like this:

1) an bachelors degree or higher from a regionally accredited college or university.

2) 60 college hrs or more from a regionally accredited university going towards a bachelors degree.

3) a private pilots license or higher with a minimum of 150hrs PIC or be qualified to be a transport mission pilot and pass the current CAPF-5.

4) a post secondary trade school consisting of a minimum of 1000 clock hrs approved by the  Region commander.

 
  I added in the words regionally accredited so as to keep someone with a non accredited degree or a degree that has non-recognised accreditation from qualifying. Unfortunately there are people out there who spend money on fake degrees and if you don't specify what level of accreditation is minimum then those people with the fake degree just might qualify. just because a school is "approved" by a state doesn't mean that they grant "real" recognised degrees.

As for the 1000 clock hours of post secondary trade school, I think you need someone other then a squadron commander to approve that program. it needs to a recognised post secondary trade school.

a private pilot who doesn't have at least 150hrs PIC (i think thats the number) really isn't qualified to perform any missions. at the very least I think the requirement should be high enough that they have to at least meet the transport mission pilot requirements before becoming an officer. a person becoming an officer under this requirement should be an active pilot and have a current CAPF-5. I don't think someone who had a pilots license 20 years ago and hasn't flown since should qualify.

[RiverAux]

I didn't see any indication in the NEC proposal that they were going to consider a wholesale change in senior rank system as you guys are talking about. 

[DrJbdm]

No River they didn't. but it is reasonable to to infer that with possibly adding an NCO corps for those without prior service they would have to raise the standards to become an Officer. That can only be a good thing with us having real world missions. If we where only a CP program then it wouldn't matter very much.

  I agree with you TankerT...those are excellent points and ones that we sometimes fail to consider. Image isn't just important, it's everything and perception is reality! Some of us may not wish it was so but pretending that's not how the world works isn't going to change the facts any. We will only be as effective as our image and perception from the public allows.

[ddelaney103]

It just keeps coming back to the basic fact that "CAP rank is CAP rank."  That's fine, but we need to ditch the bars and oak leaves.

If our grade didn't look like the Real Military (TM), so many problems would just fade away.  Nobody would be sweating things like grade inversion, the "not ready for oak leaf majors," how we work with the AF when CAP officers interface with AF enlisted.

The problem is we're all about the bling.  There are too many CAP'ers who want to look like real officers and will bolt when we tried to take that away.  The NB crowd want their eagles (and stars, if they can get them) and won't move on anything like this.  The cries of "I _earned_ this!" will echo across the land.

In the end, it'll be "sit down, shut up, and pass the tofu oak leaves."