Bye bye NCOs???

[Panache]

That being said, anything is an improvement over Mr. and Mrs. Public who join as SM's only because little Timmy is a cadet, and become 2nd Lieutenants six months later without actually doing anything that doesn't direct involve their kid.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

That being said, anything is an improvement over Mr. and Mrs. Public who join as SM's only because little Timmy is a cadet, and become 2nd Lieutenants six months later without actually doing anything that doesn't direct involve their kid.

Or, like in the senior squadron I was part of on paper, signing their significant others up (and then they get to be second lieutenants six months later!) just so they can fly in the CAP airplane, but they never take part in any squadron business.

Having said that, I have to agree that insisting on having the "CAP" in the NCO stripes is redundant and not needed, not to mention quite ugly.  One recommendation I would make is to make the triangle/prop design full-colour (red on a white triangle).  That would stick out and be (bleurgh) "distinctive."

After all, since NCO's are not saluted in the military anyway, it is not possible for a CAP NCO to troll for a salute!

As for the OP...that is strange.  I do not understand where he is coming from.

[Panache]

After all, since NCO's are not saluted in the military anyway, it is not possible for a CAP NCO to troll for a salute!

True, but speaking strictly from my time in the military, anytime a new E-8 or (especially) E-9 showed up on base, it was kinda big news.

I can understand Ma Blue's concern about some random Airman having an anxiety attack when they see a CAP E-9 in their area and freak out.  I mean, let's face it, random officers on a Air Force Base wouldn't warrant a second glance.  But a Chief Master Sergeant?  Different story...

[a2capt]

They can't get 2LT w/o completing Level I. It's not as effortless as it was, and if the unit is pencil whipping, then thats what they get.

[Panache]

They can't get 2LT w/o completing Level I. It's not as effortless as it was, and if the unit is pencil whipping, then thats what they get.

True.  But if the eventual plan is to make all non-military SMs start of at the "Junior Enlisted" grades (CAP E-2 to E-4), and then have them choose which "track" they wish to pursue (NCO or Officer) if they're shown an interest in being actual active members, I would be cool with that. 

[Cliff_Chambliss]

Does anyone really think there is a pool of potential members out there unwilling to join CAP because they can't wear their real military NCO stripes? 

Reading the proposed program it persons holding the rank/grade/position of MSgt and higher would either be locked into their unit or play 'Stripe On – Stripe Off' as the stripes belong to the squadron/region/wing and not the individual.  Sorry but the US Army discarded that concept in the 1920's.

Civil Air Patrol IS NOT U.S. Air Force (Lite) and I really feel the organization would be better served forgetting about active Air Force courses, schools, programs and developing concepts and programs aligned with the CAP Mission.  The USAF has to train and school for the war fighting mission and overseas deployments.  For the CAP to spend as little as 5 minutes in this arena is wasted effort.  If anything, CAP should be getting far closer to CERT Programs, Civil Defense, and Local EMA's, for outside of the aerospace education for cadets if CAP is to have a future Preparedness and recovery is where it will be. 
Civil Air Patrol has far too many semi-ignored programs and procedures that really should be fixed before embarking on another quest for the Golden Fleece, but I know it's going to be hard for someone to look at and fix something created by their predecessor instead of creating their own claim to fame.

[Al Sayre]

The quota thing is going to be a bit more problematic than the briefing lets on.   I don't think NHQ has a done a real head count of former NCO's and their grades.   I know in my wing alone we have at least half a dozen retired E-8's and E-9's that I can name off the top of my head, somewhere around a dozen E-7's and a big heaping pile of E5's and E-6's.   Almost of all them are currently in the squadrons wearing officer rank...

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

After all, since NCO's are not saluted in the military anyway, it is not possible for a CAP NCO to troll for a salute!

True, but speaking strictly from my time in the military, anytime a new E-8 or (especially) E-9 showed up on base, it was kinda big news.

I can understand Ma Blue's concern about some random Airman having an anxiety attack when they see a CAP E-9 in their area and freak out.  I mean, let's face it, random officers on a Air Force Base wouldn't warrant a second glance.  But a Chief Master Sergeant?  Different story...

My supervisor was an E-8 SMSgt.  My flight commander was a First Lieutenant (later Captain).  It is not hard to figure out who really ran things.

Civil Air Patrol IS NOT U.S. Air Force (Lite) and I really feel the organization would be better served forgetting about active Air Force courses, schools, programs and developing concepts and programs aligned with the CAP Mission.  The USAF has to train and school for the war fighting mission and overseas deployments.  For the CAP to spend as little as 5 minutes in this arena is wasted effort.  If anything, CAP should be getting far closer to CERT Programs, Civil Defense, and Local EMA's, for outside of the aerospace education for cadets if CAP is to have a future Preparedness and recovery is where it will be. 

You speak as too many in CAP do, who think that we are ALL ES, ALL THE TIME.  It is but one of our three authorised missions, no more and no less important than the other two.

Regardless of what you think of the concept, we are the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary (AUXON/OFF be hanged).  It would take an Act of Congress to change that.

[Eclipse]

You speak as too many in CAP do, who think that we are ALL ES, ALL THE TIME.  It is but one of our three authorized missions, no more and no less important than the other two.

AE is lip service, there's only two real missions in CAP, and if you're not involved with cadets, what else is there but ES?

Rare is the person so enamored with administration that they join to balance the checkbook or file forms.  Most members
do that as a necessary evil ADY so they can continue for the reasons they joined.

I'd be willing to bet that one of the reasons we supposedly have "3 missions" is because someone, somewhere, liked
the idea of the tri-prop representing the missions, even though from a practical perspective the math doesn't work.

[MSG Mac]

I have to admit, there are some nice things about this system.  I like the promotion quota.  However, I find it funny that a squadron is limited to 1 MSgt but unlimited Lt Cols.  On the other hand though, this can limit promotion potential as that single MSgt may never leave for 20 years, which means no other NCOs can be promoted without going to Wing.  That system never states how many MSgt's a wing can have.  But that SMSgt may sit at his/her position for 20 years.  The only person that seems to have a tenure rule is the CMSgt.  Which raises another question, since squadrons are not authorized anything higher than a MSgt, where will that CMSgt go after his/her tenure?  I find it interesting that CMSgt positions have a tenure position except the National Command Chief.  Why does he/she not have a tenure length as even the National Commander and BoG members do?

I know, only time will tell.

The Command Chief's tenure is the same as the National Commander's at the will of the BOG's

[a2capt]

I must say..  since 1972, it's the easiest way out.

http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/F002B_E249721A9E98E.pdf

Click the link, enter the text, and send it off.

[Eclipse]

I have to admit, there are some nice things about this system.  I like the promotion quota.  However, I find it funny that a squadron is limited to 1 MSgt but unlimited Lt Cols.  On the other hand though, this can limit promotion potential as that single MSgt may never leave for 20 years, which means no other NCOs can be promoted without going to Wing.  That system never states how many MSgt's a wing can have.  But that SMSgt may sit at his/her position for 20 years.  The only person that seems to have a tenure rule is the CMSgt.  Which raises another question, since squadrons are not authorized anything higher than a MSgt, where will that CMSgt go after his/her tenure?  I find it interesting that CMSgt positions have a tenure position except the National Command Chief.  Why does he/she not have a tenure length as even the National Commander and BoG members do?

You have to wonder if the people proposing grade quotas have actually ever been in CAP.

It won't work, period.

[RiverAux]

If they want to re-work the ENTIRE CAP grade structure perhaps some of this would make sense.  But having limits on high level NCO positions, especially those that under the current system can only be had by those who had equivalent ranks in the military, makes no sense at all. 

Its entirely different than CAP officer grades, even for past Generals, being limited to Lt. Col. except for those very few who earn Col or above.  Having a bunch of CAP Generals walking around serving as squadron supply officers would cause a level of dissonance too great even for CAP.  However, having more high level NCOs than might normally be seen in a real military unit isn't going to cause anyone to freak out. 

[Eclipse]

However, having more high level NCOs than might normally be seen in a real military unit isn't going to cause anyone to freak out.

I tend to agree, but only because most people don't understand the question.

It's no less ridiculous, and will raise the same questions once people get a clue.

[Ron MacCarthy]

I am a retired CMSgt.  I joined CAP after retirement in 1996.  I was asked at the time, if I wanted to be a CAP NCO or a SM. 
At the time there was no challenge to the NCO program, so I became a SM.  I am now a major in CAP, but I am still a retired CMSgt.

[LSThiker]

The Command Chief's tenure is the same as the National Commander's at the will of the BOG's

Not according to that document, unless I am missing it and I hope I am:

As such, tenure rules as applicable to wing and region commanders will apply, namely one year in probationary status and three years of continuance for a maximum of four years in position to which the CMSgt is appointed.  The National Command Chief will serve at the pleasure of the National Commander and does not have a tenure limit

[Eclipse]

I am a retired CMSgt.  I joined CAP after retirement in 1996.  I was asked at the time, if I wanted to be a CAP NCO or a SM. 
At the time there was no challenge to the NCO program, so I became a SM.  I am now a major in CAP, but I am still a retired CMSgt.

And now that you are a CAP-FGO, you most certainly understand that neither is mutually exclusive, nor, frankly, relevent to the other.

[Eclipse]

Another question - will this mean the end to CAP Officer special appointments for military NCOs?

As of today, the assertion is that "x" NCO is equivalent to "x" CAP Officer grade, but if you follow the
math on the proposal, that is clearly not the case.

So there you go.

[kd8gua]

The limits for SNCOs are a terrible idea. What happens to all of the current SNCOs in CAP? Move to Wing/Region or demote?

I think another way to look at that policy letter is that these are prescribed positions. As in, you have one Unit level NCO in a position. Their minimum grade must be MSgt and so on. That is not to say a SMS or CMS could fill those unit level positions.

Has anyone determined if these NCO positions will be mandatory? My unit doesn't have any retired NCOs. Will someone have to be ADY to several units/groups if there just aren't available NCOs?

I don't see anything about junior enlisted grades. Level 1 seems to correspond to SSgt and up from there. Which is interesting, if the levels will correspond to certain grades, does that mean only those who have earned the Wilson can become CMSgts? But one can only become a CMSgt at the appropriate level of leadership, which means if someone wants to focus on unit level only, they remain a MSgt. Strange.

I wouldn't be surprised if this is a move to.make CAP officers have minimum bachelors or associates degrees. Hope I'm grandfathered in!

[a2capt]

Mandatory schmandatory. I can't even see anyone in planning thinking that would even work.