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Bye bye NCOs???

Started by MacGruff, March 12, 2014, 04:58:26 PM

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pierson777

#40
Quote from: lordmonar on March 13, 2014, 04:30:52 AM
Quote from: pierson777 on March 13, 2014, 02:32:46 AM
Quote from: Stonewall on March 12, 2014, 11:52:31 PM
Quote from: pierson777 on March 12, 2014, 11:29:34 PMHe wanted to convince everyone that there would be a mass exodus of CAP NCOs.  I doubt it.  Are there any CAP NCOs here on CAPtalk that can chime in with their thoughts?

Define "mass".  There are roughly 80 NCOs in CAP and roughly 34,000 senior members in CAP.  That's what, 0.2%?

What I said was "mass exodus of CAP NCOs," not mass exodus of senior members.  In this context I would describe the word "mass" as a majority of, which would be more than half.  I have no idea how many CAP NCOs there are.  If there are indeed roughly 80 NCOs in CAP, then roughly 40 would constitute a mass exodus or a majority of.  While that would only be 0.2% of senior members, it would be 50% of CAP NCOs.
I don't think that 40 people spread out over 51 wings could be considered a "mass" anything.


I agree that 40, or even as many as 80 NCOs for that matter, spread out over 51 wings would not constitute much of a "mass".  But MacGruff said that the soon-to-quit NCO said he "thinks there are maybe 80 NCOs in CAP altogether and questioned why they wanted them all to leave."  Those are his words according to MacGruff, not mine.  The use of the term "mass exodus" is merely a rhetorical metaphor.  My point here is, please don't get hung up on a metaphor, rather focus on the topic at hand...an NCO doesn't like the future of the CAP NCO program and wants to quit.  Is that a real problem or an isolated incidenT?

As far as the new grade insignia, I like them.  I just hope that when they are worn on the service coat, that the CAP cutouts on the lapel can be replaced with the encircled US insignia, mirroring how the USAF NCO wear their uniform.

lordmonar

Pierson.....I understand what you are saying.

On facebook their is CAP NCO page....kind of full of people with zero information making a lot of noise about what they do not know.

This NCO is making a lot of noise about quitting over a program that he can't know anything about (unless he is actually on the NCO working group).

So.....I think SARDRAGON called.   A flounce.   worth what every you thing it should be.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

lordmonar

BTW found it.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

RiverAux

I think we've seen that here before, haven't we?

I seem to recall noticing that they have a an apparent misunderstanding of the organizational structure of CAP squadrons and use terms for CAP positions that don't actually exist as such. 

Flying Pig

I thought about becoming a CAP NCO once, but then again... I got out as an E5.  It would have been cool at 23.... at 40, I don't want to be an E5 :o  Besides, the pay cut from Captain was more than I could handle. 

Eclipse

Quote from: lordmonar on March 13, 2014, 05:28:53 AM
On facebook their is CAP NCO page...

You could have stopped there.

"That Others May Zoom"

Flying Pig

Im already missing my children's formative years by spending way to much time on the internet.  I don't need to know about a CAP NCO FB page thank you very much.

a2capt

On Facebook there is a CAP NCO page...

antdetroitwallyball

QuoteOn Facebook there is a CAP NCO page...

Dear Lord...... :-[

So, as a brand new CAP member (me), the whole business of having this NCO rank system seems pointless. I get why they have it: to throw a bone in the direction of any former enlisted serviceman in the name of potential recruitment/enticement into CAP. Honestly though, that's about as much sense as I can make of it.

In the Cadet program/Senior Member program, rank means: "hey, you've accomplished something equal to everyone else around you who also holds your same rank."

But NCO's can't "advance" rank-wise in CAP, correct?

So here's why I don't agree with the whole NCO thing in CAP. Flame me if you disagree, but these are just my humble thoughts.

Please, Please don't read into this any further than a surface level, but when you join a new organization, you should more or less start over. The fact that you were an admiral in the Navy allows you to bring almost no inherent extra benefit to CAP missions than you would if you had never served in the military. Former LT's in the army don't automatically become eliglible for "LT" if they join a police or fire dept after military service.

Look at Rank like this: Rank only means something in your respective organization. You stop being a SGT the moment you leave the army. Sure, your WERE a SGT, but now you are in the civilian world where you are literally nothing more than a civilian. You go get a job at any company, and no one calls you "SGT," because guess what, you're not one anymore. Get Over it. You start over at zero in the civilian world. The mere fact that you acheived E5 verses E2 in the military means virtually nothing to the 99% of Americans who never served in the military. We all are in great respect and gratitude for your service, but almost none of us actually care or even understand what you making it to E5 really meant. Please, Please don't read into this any further than a surface level.

Eclipse

Quote from: antdetroitwallyball on March 13, 2014, 05:16:13 PMBut NCO's can't "advance" rank-wise in CAP, correct?

As it stands today, you are correct, however the proposed new program would allow for both military NCOs and non-military CAP NCOs to advance in rank grade based only
on CAP professional development and TIG.

"That Others May Zoom"

SunDog

Quote from: antdetroitwallyball on March 13, 2014, 05:16:13 PM
QuoteOn Facebook there is a CAP NCO page...

Former LT's in the army don't automatically become eligible for "LT" if they join a police or fire dept after military service.


Gee, no flame here - I had a CAP sqdn CC who was a relatively senior, active duty Army officer; he considered CAP more like a volunteer fire department than a military entity.  He didn't mind the CAP rank structure, but didn't see a compelling need for it.  It probably doesn't hurt much of anything, and except for the constant uniform angst, I can take it or leave it, as I suspect many CAP members with prior service could.

A lot of people do like the rank structure, and like the AF style duds, and that's cool.  If some potential new members would rather be pseudo-NCOs, as opposed to pseudo-Officers, heck, gen up the stripes and let 'em have 'em.  I guess there would be some NHQ overhead related to it, but in the big scheme of silly cycles expended, probably not that bad?

Eclipse

Things which are considered "probably not that bad" should not get time, attention, or budget.

In this case, the assertion is being made that since NCOs are the "backbone of the military", implementing them
in CAP will significantly impact the program in a positive way.

That is certainly one opinion.

"That Others May Zoom"

Panache

Quote from: antdetroitwallyball on March 13, 2014, 05:16:13 PM
So, as a brand new CAP member (me), the whole business of having this NCO rank system seems pointless.

It's not just you.  A lot of members, myself included, think there's no good reason for it's existence other than, as you pointed out, "Hey, I was an NCO in the RealMilitary™!"

QuoteBut NCO's can't "advance" rank-wise in CAP, correct?

As Eclipse already pointed out, no, not at this time, but that's slated to chance.  But advancement past Technical Sergeant will be restricted by a weird quota system.

Майор Хаткевич

Well, most SMs don't get past 1st Lt/Capt anyway, so I suppose it's somewhat inline with the O-side.

antdetroitwallyball

#54
I would still argue that CAP having a rank structure (even the current one, which is similar to the USAF) has value, especially at the Cadet level. Just so we are clear, I'm in no way advocating the abolishment of the current CAP rank system. In fact, I would even be against fundamentally changing it.

I just don't get why there is a need for two parallel rank systems for senior members. That's really just it. :)

FW

Quote from: antdetroitwallyball on March 13, 2014, 05:48:26 PM
I just don't get why there is a need for two parallel rank systems for senior members. That's really just it. :)

Maybe we'll know an answer to this by the time our annual conference takes place this August...

AirAux

I know an Air Force retired General that is a Colonel in CAP.  Maybe he should go whining and crying and stomping his feet about the injustice of it all?  No, he is a classy guy that can fly a glider through the eye of a needle.  He is an outstanding asset to CAP and I appreciate his service both active and CAP.  But, that is the difference in an Officer and an NCO?? 

Panache

Quote from: AirAux on March 13, 2014, 06:00:11 PM
I know an Air Force retired General that is a Colonel in CAP.  Maybe he should go whining and crying and stomping his feet about the injustice of it all?  No, he is a classy guy that can fly a glider through the eye of a needle.  He is an outstanding asset to CAP and I appreciate his service both active and CAP.  But, that is the difference in an Officer and an NCO??

Not really a fair comparison.  I'm sure every single person on CAPTalk knows of at least one CAP officer who is... well, let's just say "less than professional."

Eclipse

Quote from: antdetroitwallyball on March 13, 2014, 05:48:26 PMI just don't get why there is a need for two parallel rank systems for senior members. That's really just it. :)

They aren't "parallel", NCOs are subordinate to officers, and that's where the fun is going to start.

If they want to "play" like the big boys, that means even the most lowly Flight Officer or new butter bar will have authority over NCOs...wait,
no, that's not right, because authority in CAP comes from staff posting, not grade so...

...anyway... NCOs are the backbone of the military and responsible for the health and well being of the enlisted so in a CAP context
they will...wait, there's no "enlisted" in CAP...so...

...where was I going with this?

"That Others May Zoom"

antdetroitwallyball

QuoteIf some potential new members would rather be pseudo-NCOs, as opposed to pseudo-Officers

See, this is were I think people's understanding of "rank" is confused. You are a "real" officer in CAP. It's just that you being an CAPT in the army means nothing outside of the army. You are a real officer in cap, just not in the army, or your local police dept for that matter. Rank is entirely dependent on each organization.