Bye bye NCOs???

[Eclipse]

So CAP isn't breaking ground or setting precedent to grant advanced rank to lawyers, chaplains, CFIs, etc. Just a smallish incentive .

It's not about "precedent" it's about "propriety".

Those professionals still have to go to "Salutin' School" in order to maintain their grade and jobs, and they are expected to provide
their services in support of the military at a level commensurate with the grade they are given.

The USAF isn't hiring an MD off the street, making him the Chief MO of a Wing, including the gold or silver oaks, and then
all that person does is punch a monthly safety ticket.

[LSThiker]

Yeah, I should have been more specific; he told me USAF gave advanced rank because no doctor would sign up for 2Lt pay.

And he would be wrong.  Well at least he would be wrong that the USAF was doing it at that time for that reason.  Although he would probably be correct with the doctors mentality of pay.

They were having a tough time getting/keeping docs, and one incentive was to advance them to O3 right away.

The system was in place long before that.  There was not a decision to advance them to O3 right away because the USAF needed doctors.  The system was in place by the War Department prior to the formation of the USAF and the DoD.

I don't think USAF was doing it because the Army did it decades before

From Sept 8 1947 until sometime in 1948, the Air Force continued to wear Army rank insignia. 

Oh when did  Robert MacArthur Crawford write the Air Force song?  Was it 1938 and originally title Army Air Corps?  Yup. 

Oh, what was an Army E-7 called before 1948?  Technical Sergeant?  Yup.  The name Sergeant First Class replaced the Technical Sergeant in 1948.

Yes the Air Force adopted many Army principles.

[SunDog]

 

That's because USAF is a military organization, and a full time job. CAP is neither, of course, and we have the flexibilty to more easily tolerate the time it takes a new lawyer, chaplain, or pilot to get up to speed on our particular culture. Most new members can read - we can steer 'em as needed, they'll do level one, etc.

And it is, actually, about precedent, as that was the point; the folks CAP advance are also expected, as you say, to provide service commensrate with the grade granted.

Lawyers new to CAP bring a base of legal knowledge laymen don't have, and as chaplains bring training, usually with advanced education, to dealing with spiritual matters. Same-same for an instrument rated CFI - ones willing to donate thier time are rare enough.

I don't think CAP is 'hiring a CFII off the street" and making him a Wing OPS officer, either. If your wing has lawyers, chaplains and/or IPs punching a monthly safety ticket, that goes more to wing management - the issue isn't about the advanced grade they were given, I think. Maybe more about CAP corporate culture.

If you worked hard for each promotion, put in the time and effirt, I can see hOw it could be irritating to have someone walk in the door as a Capt. Maybe it'd help to consider they put in a lot of work and $$$ to get those skills, too - they just did the work before getting to CAP.

[Eclipse]

That's because USAF is a military organization, and a full time job. CAP is neither, of course, and we have the flexibilty to more easily tolerate the time it takes a new lawyer, chaplain, or pilot to get up to speed on our particular culture. Most new members can read - we can steer 'em as needed, they'll do level one, etc.

Actually quite the reverse, and the idea that CAP has all this extra time to "let things happen as they will" is one of the reasons we've been stuck
in a circular rut for decades.

Self-actualization with no expectation of deadline or deliverables is how you manage your Netflix queue, not a national service organization.

I don't think CAP is 'hiring a CFII off the street" and making him a Wing OPS officer, either.

We absolutely are, all the time.  We've got slick-sleeves who "know a guy" walking in off the street and the next month
are sitting at a Wing HQ desk as a director of "whatever" while the butter is still wet on their bars.

If your wing has lawyers, chaplains and/or IPs punching a monthly safety ticket, that goes more to wing management - the issue isn't about the advanced grade they were given, I think. Maybe more about CAP corporate culture.

>My wing?<  All wings.  100% no question.

[CAP_truth]

CAP had enlisted grades and many members used them before they became officers. ECI 7C was required before anyone could become an officer. We could have a separate membership class for enlisted and a membership class for those who wish to become officers. Add a new PD training for enlisted rank along with a time in grade requirement list big blue uses for promotions. We also need to raise the requirements for officer that may require an associate degree for officers. Also flight officers grades be extended for some mission related grades. 

[Eclipse]

CAP had enlisted grades and many members used them before they became officers. ECI 7C was required before anyone could become an officer. We could have a separate membership class for enlisted and a membership class for those who wish to become officers. Add a new PD training for enlisted rank along with a time in grade requirement list big blue uses for promotions.

And what, exactly, would these "enlisted" members do that would be different then the "officers".

We also need to raise the requirements for officer that may require an associate degree for officers. Also flight officers grades be extended for some mission related grades.

Because?

[arajca]

CAP had enlisted grades and many members used them before they became officers. ECI 7C was required before anyone could become an officer. We could have a separate membership class for enlisted and a membership class for those who wish to become officers. Add a new PD training for enlisted rank along with a time in grade requirement list big blue uses for promotions.

And what, exactly, would these "enlisted" members do that would be different then the "officers".

And that, ladies and gentlement, is the $64,000 question no one has answered.

[CAP_truth]

Level one would have and extra part for new seniors who would become officers, like and OTS, which would include BOC. Specialty training would cover job training. new SLS, CLC, covering enlisted or officer leadership. RSC and NSC for officers and RNCO and NNCO training with the appropriate grade requirements. 

[arajca]

Which one handles what duties at the unit? What functional difference would there be between an Admin Officer and an Admin NCO? What happens when you don't have NCO's in a unit? Who does their jobs?

[CAP_truth]

The specialty training makes no difference when it comes to duties positions with the exception of professional positions like chaplains, legal officers, or medical officers. all commanders or deputy commanders should always be an officer.

[Eclipse]

The specialty training makes no difference when it comes to duties positions with the exception of professional positions like chaplains, legal officers, or medical officers. all commanders or deputy commanders should always be an officer.

So then the point an NCO/Officer caste system would be...?

[SunDog]

I dunno, really. Not even sure why we muck with rank at all, versus just having duty assigments. Someone is sqdn leader, someone is Wing Ops, someone is the chaplain, someone is wing king.  Some of them have assistants.

Run a group or small wing like a volunteer fire dept., which is a lot closer to the ES reality than a USAF  sqd, group, or wing. Maybe keep the cadet rank structure intact, but loose it for SMs.

If you're a Big Noise in your wing, you still will be; the GOBS will still know each other's names. . .

I wouldn't wear rail-road tracks, just pilot wings. And maybe not those.  Wear some kind of simple, work duds with a CAP patch, maybe sqdn/ wing patch, something else like business casual (polo, open neck button shirt, wahtever), and a blazer and tie for the political junk or Christmas party.

Instead of Air Force light or wannabe

[Spaceman3750]

Run a group or small wing like a volunteer fire dept., which is a lot closer to the ES reality than a USAF  sqd, group, or wing. Maybe keep the cadet rank structure intact, but loose it for SMs.

Every volunteer fire department I've seen has ranks. Every police auxiliary/reserve I've seen has ranks. And I'm pretty sure they're not playing dress-up or wanna-be; they're performing real services to their community, in the exact same way that CAP provides thousands of man-hours per year of community, state, and federal volunteer service.

[SunDog]

Yes, they do, but please note I said "like", not identical. . .I'm suggesting we could keep providing the services and drop some of the hoo-haw. The services we both mentioned have straight forward dress that identifies them readily. That's cool, but they they don't look like a NATO dress ball, either.  In a gathering of 25 CAP corporate officers, I saw may 20 uniform combinations, "legal" and otherwise. Gray, as a color, got a very liberal intepretation. . . it had to be incoherent to our hosts. 

The element of USAF mimickery makes Big Blue uneasy (apparently, anyway);  is there some reason we couldn't do the job sans ranks? I ain't religious about it, just kicking it around.  Short of sailor suits or knee-boots, I'll wear what everyone else is wearing.

I think I've seen our volunteer firefighters in two uniforms - something like BDUs, and something formal for ceremony. And their real work clothes, of course, which is more equipment/protective gear.

USAF has a decent uniform; o problem with it. Heck, I wore it for some years. But we aren't USAF, and it may be the rank structure isn't as necessary for us - how about just accept the job, do the job, be given the authority the job requires.

I'm just saying. . . 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I dunno, really. Not even sure why we muck with rank at all, versus just having duty assigments. Someone is sqdn leader, someone is Wing Ops, someone is the chaplain, someone is wing king.  Some of them have assistants.

That's mostly the way the Coast Guard Auxiliary is run...they don't have the rank titles, but they wear slightly-modified CG rank insignia.

Run a group or small wing like a volunteer fire dept., which is a lot closer to the ES reality than a USAF  sqd, group, or wing. Maybe keep the cadet rank structure intact, but loose it for SMs.

Once more, with feeling...we are not just ES!

Why "loose it" for SM's?  I think most (except in the senior squadron I mentioned) CAP members do like to be rewarded for achievement and professional development.

If you're a Big Noise in your wing, you still will be; the GOBS will still know each other's names. . .

The GOB/GN is a cancer on the Civil Air Patrol.

I wouldn't wear rail-road tracks, just pilot wings. And maybe not those.  Wear some kind of simple, work duds with a CAP patch, maybe sqdn/ wing patch, something else like business casual (polo, open neck button shirt, wahtever), and a blazer and tie for the political junk or Christmas party.

I own the G/W kit, but I have never owned a polo shirt or the bloody awful blazer, and I never will as far as I can see.  And that makes me probably an increasing minority in CAP.

Instead of Air Force light or wannabe

Please do not use the term "wannabe."  There was another CT member who used it in almost every post, until he finally got banned.

The element of USAF mimickery makes Big Blue uneasy (apparently, anyway);  is there some reason we couldn't do the job sans ranks? I ain't religious about it, just kicking it around.

Yet they still authorise us to wear their uniform, modified.

I was in the CGAUX for a number of years, and while I have the highest respect for them (and the Coast Guard in general; the criminally-overlooked Armed Force) all of the "office designator" alphabet soup confused the living heck out of me.  Our system is much simpler.

Or we could go to something like the RAF and its Commonwealth offshoots use, where your rank sometimes tells what you actually do.

Pilot Officer (2nd Lieutenant)
Flying Officer (1st Lieutenant)
Flight Lieutenant (Captain)
Squadron Leader (Major)
Wing Commander (Lieutenant Colonel)
Group Captain (Colonel - in the RAF/RAAF/RCAF/RNZAF Group is higher than Wing, the reverse of us)
Air Commodore (Brigadier General)
Air Vice-Marshal (Major General)

I'd stop there because that's as high as we go.

As well, the Navy Sea Cadets use Navy/CG officer rank and don't seem to have a problem with it, except that theirs is harder to earn (you have to be in at least a year before being considered for Ensign, whereas we just hand out 2nd Lieutenant to anyone who shows up for six months).

I think I've seen our volunteer firefighters in two uniforms - something like BDUs, and something formal for ceremony. And their real work clothes, of course, which is more equipment/protective gear.

No disrespect to firefighters in general (I grew up next to a fire station) or to volunteer firefighters in particular (my uncle was one for many years), but we are not them.

USAF has a decent uniform; o problem with it. Heck, I wore it for some years. But we aren't USAF, and it may be the rank structure isn't as necessary for us - how about just accept the job, do the job, be given the authority the job requires.

That would only likely happen if we were completely cut loose from the USAF, in which case CAP would probably cease to exist.

However, I concede that there is a small(ish)-but-vocal minority within CAP who would like us to do just that.

[JeffDG]

The specialty training makes no difference when it comes to duties positions with the exception of professional positions like chaplains, legal officers, or medical officers. all commanders or deputy commanders should always be an officer.

So then the point an NCO/Officer caste system would be...?

It's a well thought out solution in desperate search of a problem.

[pierson777]

I spoke a representative from membership services while at a national conference about six years ago.  That person told me that there was a strong consideration at that time to add college education requirements for officer grades.  I agree it would be very difficult to establish different duties for officers and enlisted. If their solution is to expand the NCO grades to include those without college degrees, I'm not a fan of the idea.

If someone or some entity (i.e. USAF) decides that CAP officers must have college degrees, then perhaps the flight officer grades could be expanded to include members ages 21 and older without a college degree, those with associates degrees would be eligible for company grade, and those with bachelor degrees would be eligible for field grade.  That's my 2 cents.  That said, I already have a couple degrees, and I understand that not everyone does.  Plus there's the issue that they would plateau after three promotions unless they earned degree.

[a2capt]

Such a move would serve practically zero purpose. In order to be accomplished with consistency, they would have to dump everyone that does not hold that precious piece of paper, and that take years and years to recover from the outfall caused.

Totally worthless.

[pierson777]

Such a move would serve practically zero purpose. In order to be accomplished with consistency, they would have to dump everyone that does not hold that precious piece of paper, and that take years and years to recover from the outfall caused.

Totally worthless.

I agree.  I don't see a problem that needs fixing.  It sounds like someone with the authority to affect change may want to fix this non-problem.  I don't think expanding the NCO force is the correct solution to this hypothetical non-problem.  If there is to be change (which I hope there isn't), I'm just saying that I would prefer a change to the officer program like I described versus expanding the NCO program.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Such a move would serve practically zero purpose. In order to be accomplished with consistency, they would have to dump everyone that does not hold that precious piece of paper, and that take years and years to recover from the outfall caused.

Totally worthless.

I remember talking with a CAP Chaplain about this subject back in the '90s...he said that in such a system, current CAP officers would be "grandfathered" in if they choose to.

I completely support expanding the flight officer grades, but changing the insignia to warrant officer-type.