Bye bye NCOs???

[MSG Mac]

The Command Chief's tenure is the same as the National Commander's at the will of the BOG's

Not according to that document, unless I am missing it and I hope I am:

As such, tenure rules as applicable to wing and region commanders will apply, namely one year in probationary status and three years of continuance for a maximum of four years in position to which the CMSgt is appointed.  The National Command Chief will serve at the pleasure of the National Commander and does not have a tenure limit

* AR-M355N_20100321_042119.pdf (573.22 kB - downloaded 47 times para 4.f under tenure

[MSG Mac]

The Command Chief's tenure is the same as the National Commander's at the will of the BOG's

Not according to that document, unless I am missing it and I hope I am:

As such, tenure rules as applicable to wing and region commanders will apply, namely one year in probationary status and three years of continuance for a maximum of four years in position to which the CMSgt is appointed.  The National Command Chief will serve at the pleasure of the National Commander and does not have a tenure limit

It's in Para 4.f of Lord Monars submission on page 3 of the thread. CAn't copy it.

[LSThiker]

It's in Para 4.f of Lord Monars submission on page 3 of the thread. CAn't copy it.

Umm, what I quoted was Paragraph 4.f and specifically states the National Command Chief has no tenure limit and his/her serving is at the pleasure of the National Commander.  So in theory, if 8 National Commanders love him/her that person will serve for 8 national commanders.  A national commander cannot serve as national commander 8 times.  So where do you see that it says the National Command Chief tenure is the same as the national commander?

[Panache]

The limits for SNCOs are a terrible idea. What happens to all of the current SNCOs in CAP? Move to Wing/Region or demote?

The document specifically states that everybody who currently holds CAP NCO grade will be grandfathered in and will not be demoted, but to advance in grade they will be subject to the new standards and quota system.

[MSG Mac]

It's in Para 4.f of Lord Monars submission on page 3 of the thread. CAn't copy it.

Umm, what I quoted was Paragraph 4.f and specifically states the National Command Chief has no tenure limit and his/her serving is at the pleasure of the National Commander.  So in theory, if 8 National Commanders love him/her that person will serve for 8 national commanders.  A national commander cannot serve as national commander 8 times.  So where do you see that it says the National Command Chief tenure is the same as the national commander?

same as in indeterminate and based on the will of the appointer.

[LSThiker]

same as in indeterminate and based on the will of the appointer.

Yes so the National Command Chief is indeterminate and based on the will of the appointer.  However, CMSgts assigned at the Wing and Region level are specifically only allowed 4 year terms.  Why the disconnect?

[lordmonar]

I'm not defending or promoting anything in this proposal.....but I would like to point out....the document submitted is NOT the NCO program.

It is a basic frame work that explicitly states that 90% of the questions being asked and groused about will have to be worked out.

[ZigZag911]

CAP being CAP, I have my doubts that any of the senior NCO grades will, in the end, truly be "temporary".

I'm not convinced that there is a distinctive role for an expanded  NCO corps in CAP...I'd like to see some answers to practical questions, like "why"? (I don't oppose keeping the present program for former military non coms).

If there is such a role, then there ought to be some elements of professional development that are unique to officers or NCOs...some overlap is reasonable, especially in Levels 1 & 2, as well as technical track training...but the later stages of PD should focus on the specific roles more.

I think the bigger problem is the "180 day wonders" (2 Lt in 6 months with just Level 1), as well as the ridiculous system of special appointments to advanced grades. That really needs to be re-considered and revised.

[MSG Mac]

If there is to be an NCO Corps, CAP will have to start every new SM, (with the exception of former Officers) as potential NCO's. Officer appointments will have additional requirements, possibly completion of the OBC and an in-residence Officer School. I would encourage everyone to review the PD presentation from the CSAG of Nov 2013.

[Eclipse]

Except for pilots, lawyers, teachers, ES professionals, that guy your sister dated in high school, etc.

D.

O.

A.

[Eclipse]

CAP will have to start every new SM, (with the exception of former Officers) as potential NCO's.

Just reread that, brings up another issue.

The new program is supposed to be all about opening a robust recruiting channel to current military NCOs as the "new backbone".

Q: How's that supposed to work in the same paradigm as a system with manning tables and limits on promotion?
A: It doesn't.  You have to eliminate all NCO and officer special appointments unless the person is assuming the respective role,
otherwise you've changed nothing.

CAP: "Chief!  You are exactly what CAP needs!  You'll be the C-4 in our new vertebrae!"

CAP: "Just one thing, we're all out of "Chiefs" for a while, so we'll need you to wear E-5 for a few years..."

Chief: "Well, who's that guy with the E-9 with the weird propeller on it?"

CAP: "Oh that's Jimmy.  Good guy.  Lives near Wing HQ and mows the lawn."

Chief: "What branch was he in?"

CAP:  "He wasn't, but like I said, he mows the lawn for us."

Chief: "Well, OK, when is his term up?"

CAP: "Probably about 3 years, we'll let you know!"

Chief: ((*))

CAP: "Welcome aboard!"

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

You speak as too many in CAP do, who think that we are ALL ES, ALL THE TIME.  It is but one of our three authorized missions, no more and no less important than the other two.

AE is lip service, there's only two real missions in CAP, and if you're not involved with cadets, what else is there but ES?

Rare is the person so enamored with administration that they join to balance the checkbook or file forms.  Most members
do that as a necessary evil ADY so they can continue for the reasons they joined.

I'd be willing to bet that one of the reasons we supposedly have "3 missions" is because someone, somewhere, liked
the idea of the tri-prop representing the missions, even though from a practical perspective the math doesn't work.

YMMV on AE being "lip service."

If a unit has a strong, interested, motivated AEO (and I have known a couple, who really put their backs and brains into AE), then the unit's AE operations will be solid.

I joined more for AE than for ES (I am enamoured with most "things with wings" and have been for much of my life), even though I became an Observer.

Secondary to that was my desire to be involved in making a place where young people could be safe, have fun, learn and grow without fear of bullying, since I never had that.

Kudos to all those who tramp out in the fields doing GT, but even if my health permitted it, I would not be interested in that.

As I'm sure you're aware, people join for all sorts of reasons (legitimate and otherwise).  I was in a unit where one new member was a nurse, and she took the reins on Health Services with gusto.

[SunDog]

CAP being CAP, I have my doubts that any of the senior NCO grades will, in the end, truly be "temporary".

I'm not convinced that there is a distinctive role for an expanded  NCO corps in CAP...I'd like to see some answers to practical questions, like "why"? (I don't oppose keeping the present program for former military non coms).

If there is such a role, then there ought to be some elements of professional development that are unique to officers or NCOs...some overlap is reasonable, especially in Levels 1 & 2, as well as technical track training...but the later stages of PD should focus on the specific roles more.

I think the bigger problem is the "180 day wonders" (2 Lt in 6 months with just Level 1), as well as the ridiculous system of special appointments to advanced grades. That really needs to be re-considered and revised.

Air Force used to routinely do appointments to advanced grades - perhaps they still do. I went to survival school with Uniformed Services medical school (USUHS?) student. He told me he walked into 2Lt  off the street, with a sort military charm school indoc. Those folks skipped 1Lt on graduation, went straight to Capt.

AF/DOD needed doctors, and that's what it took, apparently.  If we need a lawyer, and we pick somone up mid-career,  I haven't a problem with an advanced grade. Same for CFI pilots.  Pick up a USCG pilot, CFI, CFII, Commercial, and dozen of real SAR  missions,  CAP Capt seems not out of line to me.

Most of our MPs are instrument rated, maybe half have Commercials.  .  . no butter bars on entry.

[HGjunkie]

The AF should still be doing advanced appointments for Doctors, Chaplains, etc.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The AF should still be doing advanced appointments for Doctors, Chaplains, etc.

They do for doctors, nurses, chaplains and lawyers.

I think the Army brings Physician Assistants in as Warrant Officers.

[LSThiker]

Air Force used to routinely do appointments to advanced grades - perhaps they still do. I went to survival school with Uniformed Services medical school (USUHS?) student. He told me he walked into 2Lt  off the street, with a sort military charm school indoc. Those folks skipped 1Lt on graduation, went straight to Capt.

AF/DOD needed doctors, and that's what it took, apparently.

Try again and read your history.  I would suggest the AMEDD C&S Museum at Fort Sam Houston, TX and the National Museum of Civil War Medicine in Frederick, MD (see F. Scott Key burial site as well). 

The practice of giving medical doctors advanced rank was before the USAF and the DoD were created.  The Army Medical Department was dated back to 1775 with the first field hospital.  It was not formally established until the late 1810s/1820s.  At this time, medical doctors and surgeons (they were not the same back then) were not given rank even though they wore Army uniforms.  This was changed in the 1840s when doctors and surgeons were given advanced officer rank.  The practice of giving medical doctors advanced rank was also started in the early days of CAP when medical officers wore the US Army Medical Corps insignia.  This was ended in 1955 with the introduction of the current Medical Officer and Nurse Officer badge.

[LSThiker]

They do for doctors, nurses, chaplains and lawyers.

I think the Army brings Physician Assistants in as Warrant Officers.

1LT now.  It was 2LT until sometime after 1998 (I think).

[SunDog]

Air Force used to routinely do appointments to advanced grades - perhaps they still do. I went to survival school with Uniformed Services medical school (USUHS?) student. He told me he walked into 2Lt  off the street, with a sort military charm school indoc. Those folks skipped 1Lt on graduation, went straight to Capt.

AF/DOD needed doctors, and that's what it took, apparently.

Try again and read your history.  I would suggest the AMEDD C&S Museum at Fort Sam Houston, TX and the National Museum of Civil War Medicine in Frederick, MD (see F. Scott Key burial site as well). 

The practice of giving medical doctors advanced rank was before the USAF and the DoD were created.  The Army Medical Department was dated back to 1775 with the first field hospital.  It was not formally established until the late 1810s/1820s.  At this time, medical doctors and surgeons (they were not the same back then) were not given rank even though they wore Army uniforms.  This was changed in the 1840s when doctors and surgeons were given advanced officer rank.  The practice of giving medical doctors advanced rank was also started in the early days of CAP when medical officers wore the US Army Medical Corps insignia.  This was ended in 1955 with the introduction of the current Medical Officer and Nurse Officer badge.

No history read required; I was paired with him, and we were hiding in a gully together. That was his situation, which he shared with me during the hide.  I passed it on here.  It was DoD practice at that time, and what transpired before or after? No interst to me - was pasding on an anecdotal bit of evidence that advanced rank had som precedent.

Here's the fuuny part -I asked him how he ended up at USAF survival school? He said the med school students had to do something during their breaks, and the school had a catalog of military schools/training oppurtunities. He thought survival school was learning about edible plants and such, and how to build shelters. . . he was somewhat misinformed.

[LSThiker]

I was not referring to the student.  The military has been doing it that way for awhile now.  I was referring to your "AF/DOD needed doctors, and that's what it took, apparently."  It did not take advanced grade to get doctors into the USAF.  The USAF started giving advanced grade based on the Army, which started giving advanced grade in the 1840s.  So no that is not what it took.

[SunDog]

Yeah, I should have been more specific; he told me USAF gave advanced rank because no doctor would sign up for 2Lt pay. They were having a tough time getting/keeping docs, and one incentive was to advance them to O3 right away. The other was for DoD to run USUHS - free med school, O3 on graduation, in exchange for a muli-year commitment. I don't recall the number of years.

I don't think USAF was doing it because the Army did it decades before - it was an incentive used to assist in filling a shortage need at that point in time. USAF wasn't/isn't sentimental about handing out $$$ for salary and benefits, based on what was done in previous decades or centuries. Except maybe the precedent helped, if history showed it worked.

Anyway, the point was, advanced rank was used then to attract specialists, and also, apprently, long before, as you say.

So CAP isn't breaking ground or setting precedent to grant advanced rank to lawyers, chaplains, CFIs, etc. Just a smallish incentive .