HQ National Warning Letter to Senior Member "Wanna Bees" Trolling for Salutes

FW · February 15, 2011, 04:06:02 AM

Awwww, this stuff is Basic Level 1 information. But then again, I remember a former national commander riding around Maxwell in his "command vehicle" equipped with a two star plate placed on the front.

Anything's possible these days (sheeesh)

PHall · February 15, 2011, 04:06:35 AM

Guys, the "incident" in question was reported on the AF Times.com site, in the forum section.
It's had many, many visitors and a whole bunch of comments.
The vast majority did not speak well of CAP.

Major Carrales · February 15, 2011, 04:12:05 AM

I have often "surfed" other forums and read what they had to say about us, pot shots taken, photos taken out of context and all sorts of other stuff. I've also seen CAP personnel go on there and try to "defend the faith" against Soldiers, Sailors, Sailors and Airmen who all play the "active duty" card.

All of these people are usually anonymous and it gets pretty nasty until some active duty/retired fellow with their name on their post and some clout points out the "apples and oranges" axiom and shut it down.

Persona non grata · February 15, 2011, 04:13:38 AM

Air Force Times.............for the record is not endorsed by the USAF and is a private(non goverment) publication. I can make up stories all day and post them on the net, just saying

Pylon · February 15, 2011, 04:17:05 AM

Yes, this is a crazy occurrence that requires a letter from the highest members of our volunteer organization. It makes the entire organization look badly because of this internet thread.

Because nobody has ever posted a thread recounting/alleging an Air Force airman has done something less than favorable. If there ever were such a thread, I would fully expect a public letter to the entire Air Force from the CSAF explaining that an Airman -- possibly even maybe an NCO -- one day, maybe did something wrong (though nobody can confirm it) but the story was once told on an internet forum. Therefore, if an internet thread talked about a supposed occurrence, it must be a rampant problem throughout the Air Force and worthy of addressing by the CSAF. Glad CAP also follows suit with common Air Force practice. Oh wait...

tdepp · February 15, 2011, 04:18:15 AM

I hope those grousing about the letter don't endorse CAP members trolling for salutes from our active service colleagues. I took the letter as a reminder that CAP members don't do that sort of thing and our regulations expressly prohibit it. So, what's the problem?

Major Lord · February 15, 2011, 04:18:43 AM

Quote from: PHall on February 15, 2011, 04:06:35 AM
Guys, the "incident" in question was reported on the AF Times.com site, in the forum section.
It's had many, many visitors and a whole bunch of comments.
The vast majority did not speak well of CAP.

An excellent example of a logical fallacy: Argumentum ad populum a bunch of guys on a bulletin board don't like CAP. This many anonymous people can't possibly be wrong, can they? Now I would be the last one to deny that CAP has a lot of members who should be medicated before being allowed to leave the house, but a dogpile in a chatroom proves nothing other than the ill will of the posters, who are by nature self-selecting.

Major Lord

Persona non grata · February 15, 2011, 04:26:20 AM

Here you go................

"Have you ever had a CAP Major demand you salute them?
This just happened to me today. Usually I'm fine with these CAP officers and I do salute them sometimes out of respect but I didn't really notice her as I walked by. She stops me and says "Do you see this oak leaf? I am a major with the Air Force Auxiliary. You need to salute me". She had a real pissy attitude when she said this to me. I told her politely that she is till a civilian and I don't have to salute her. She responded back "I am still with the Air Force which means you salute me." I pointed to my stripes and told her that this is a real rank and then pointed to her oak leaf and told her that it doesn't mean [mess] and she is still a civilian. She started to cuss me out and then I just walked away. This woman was a real [censored]. Maybe she was just having a bad day or maybe she thinks she really does outrank me. I don't know. Has this ever happened to you?"

The CyBorg is destroyed · February 15, 2011, 04:34:58 AM

Oh cripesallbloodymighty...

This makes me want to crawl into the nearest crack in the runway of the nearest Air Force installation...

We have been pounding this into members' heads since the early '90s. I had it so inculcated into me during Level I, SLS and CLC in 1993-94 that I almost reflexively want to tell military members who do salute me, "NO YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO THAT!"

If this happened the way the story states, the Major in question is not someone I want to be in the same organisation with.

For any Air Force personnel who may be reading this, I am truly sorry and embarrassed for CAP.

Don't be surprised if significant uniform changes come as a result of this...meaning: AF uniform only for cadets, grey/whites for the rest of us to "snap us back in line."

Major Carrales · February 15, 2011, 04:36:40 AM

Quote from: eaker.cadet on February 15, 2011, 04:26:20 AM
Here you go................

"Have you ever had a CAP Major demand you salute them?
This just happened to me today. Usually I'm fine with these CAP officers and I do salute them sometimes out of respect but I didn't really notice her as I walked by. She stops me and says "Do you see this oak leaf? I am a major with the Air Force Auxiliary. You need to salute me". She had a real pissy attitude when she said this to me. I told her politely that she is till a civilian and I don't have to salute her. She responded back "I am still with the Air Force which means you salute me." I pointed to my stripes and told her that this is a real rank and then pointed to her oak leaf and told her that it doesn't mean [mess] and she is still a civilian. She started to cuss me out and then I just walked away. This woman was a real [censored]. Maybe she was just having a bad day or maybe she thinks she really does outrank me. I don't know. Has this ever happened to you?"

It sounds "plausible," however, I think both parties are acting "unprofessionally" based on this. That said, I also think this person is suffering from "FORUM COURAGE" and likely making is sound more "horrific" than it could have been.

Are USAF enlisted personnel expected to cuss out civilian women? Use passable grammar?

In any case, the above is hearsay to some degree. I think I would be pretty put out of someone insulted my CAP rank telling me it "don't mean [suspect our filter at work]? I know I was when I was called out as a teacher as somehow being "less than valuable."

I don't think I would have replied to that or even have pointed out my rank in the manner the Major in question did.

If the above did happen, shame on all of them.

Persona non grata · February 15, 2011, 04:41:29 AM

1. Was this officially reported by the Airman via his shop supervisor, first shirt

2. Is this fiction? ,who knows?

Lets move on and call it a day, be professional and respectfull towards all.....botton line!!!!!!!!

NCRblues · February 15, 2011, 04:47:45 AM

Quote from: eaker.cadet on February 15, 2011, 04:41:29 AM
1. Was this officially reported by the Airman via his shop supervisor, first shirt

2. Is this fiction? ,who knows?

Lets move on and call it a day, be professional and respectfull towards all.....botton line!!!!!!!!

I doubt this happened. Most Airman (read 18-20 year olds with a temper still) cant walk away from a situation like that, and then Security Forces gets called in.

I really really don't think this happend....or IF it did it, was no where near the level he claims....

If it was at the BX or clothing sales, there are WAY to many officers, SNCO's, and even squadron commanders in and out ALL day long...

This is overblown on all ends...the airmans AND Cap's as well.....

Hill CAP · February 15, 2011, 04:58:00 AM

In 2005 my HGA flight got invited to the evening parade at Bolling AFB. I was a 1st Lt at the time and wearing the Grey/White combo with blazer. a AF SSgt saluted me and I returned it however this is not something that I expected.

Yes it was a nice courtesy but not something I would ever demand from a Active Duty member.

However I do know a retired Navy LtCdr who is a CAP Lt Col who has no issues with demanding a salute from the AD type

Major Carrales · February 15, 2011, 05:11:45 AM

Quote from: FLCAP 320 on February 15, 2011, 04:58:00 AM
In 2005 my HGA flight got invited to the evening parade at Bolling AFB. I was a 1st Lt at the time and wearing the Grey/White combo with blazer. a AF SSgt saluted me and I returned it however this is not something that I expected.

Yes it was a nice courtesy but not something I would ever demand from a Active Duty member.

However I do know a retired Navy LtCdr who is a CAP Lt Col who has no issues with demanding a salute from the AD type

Interesting? Suppose a CAP Officer is also a USAF officer...like General Anderson had been Colonel when he was serving in the USAF prior to retirement and term as a Virginia State Delegate? A gray area, however, back to the point...

I never expect to be saluted, but am keen to return a salute rendered smartly and sharply as a token of respect.

Major Lord · February 15, 2011, 06:01:21 AM

The issue of whether or not CAP members are entitled to render or return military salutes is well settled. We are. Let me quote from the letter: "These values represent a cultural commitment within CAP to practice basic honesty, to give of one's self for the betterment of humanity, to deliver top quality services, and to treat others fairly." I don't belive the letter reflects those values.

I think that General Courter has used this pernicious gossip to engage in a little reflexive CAP-Bashing. She might wish to review the "integrity" part of our Corporate values. Next I suppose that we will get a policy letter about Major Hassan with a warning not to commit murder on military bases, as it would look bad for CAP.....and we have all heard that one in every 1500 Spaatz cadets are murderers! It does not matter if its true or not, its the "seriousness of the charge" .

Major Lord

Johnny Yuma · February 15, 2011, 06:18:46 AM

I only got through part of her letter before blood was shooting from my eyes and I was repeatedly beating my skull with my keyboard.

Whether or not the story in AF Times is fiction or not, I know as I've seen enough Walter Mitty types in this .org to believe it, from both prior service AND from those who've never served. They're usually best recognized as those who only show up at local meetings and are about worthless in any actual position in the unit and couldn't trust them to roll out on an ES mission without getting arrested.

JK657 · February 15, 2011, 06:59:13 AM

I say just take the National Commander's letter and give it its due regard then move on with the mission. If you were the major then shame on you, if you aren't then take it as a reminder and get back out there.

DrJbdm · February 15, 2011, 08:17:40 AM

I agree that this story as printed in the AF times is over blown, is it possible it happened? sure it is, we have all seen it. Part of our problem in CAP is our almost complete lack of recurrent training on such basic behaviors and absolutely no standards for becoming a CAP officer.

But sadly, higher standards, even AF standards wouldn't fix this problem, it simply goes straight to the core values of a person. It would be nice if we could have a true fire way of only accepting those for membership who hold the highest core values and maturity but sadly no such tests exists.

Elioron · February 15, 2011, 10:51:42 AM

Quote from: FLCAP 320 on February 15, 2011, 04:58:00 AM
However I do know a retired Navy LtCdr who is a CAP Lt Col who has no issues with demanding a salute from the AD type

Once the CAP uniform is on that is the uniform that counts. He can require a salute all he wants if the Navy reactivates him, but as long as he's in a CAP uniform he needs to respect them.

It's always a good idea to be the more gracious. Whether you are deserved a salute or not, getting nasty or demanding about it isn't the way to deal with it. If a cadet doesn't salute me, rather than dress them down I refer it to their sergeant for further training. If there is a problem with authority then flaunting my authority is not going to help the situation - there may be other issues at play.

James Shaw · February 15, 2011, 11:25:04 AM

This type of situation is a clear example of how social media can and will have an impact on CAP. This is true whether the story is 100% true or 5% true. The stories and information are out there. The CAP member in question is 100% wrong in either case but that does not matter, the presumption of guilt is here and so is the story.

This is not a situation to be toyed with. We had a similar incident in GAWG 7 years ago and it SEVERLY DESTROYED the local CAP / USAF relationhip. It also amazes me that people admonish the letter as a way to "clear the air" or "bash" CAP members as a whole from Gen Courter.

It makes me wonder where the inside conspiracy is; Did someone type the letter in reverse and find a hidden message or did it have an Ottendorf Cipher in the text?