Opening prayer in CAP meetings?

[A.Member]

...but I do have a philosophical objection to injecting religion into every aspect of life...

Just to point out, religion is a belief system that you are supposed to integrate into every aspect of your life.  Those beliefs to those who believe them don't change because they walked through a certain door.

If my religion says, "Thou shalt not steal" I'm supposed to integrate that philosophy into my whole life.

The question becomes are those that pray before a meeting somehow infringe on your rights by doing so or is your right to not pray infringing on their right to?

Does your religion require you to lead others in a group prayer prior to every activity/action you take part in? 

Either way, that's beside the point.   CAP is not a religious organization.  I don't go to church to learn about search and rescue or aerospace.  Likewise, no one should come to CAP to have religion bestowed upon them.

[A.Member]

Those may very well be the cadets that need it the most.  Or if they are strong in their non-believe, no harm done..  After all, the force is either strong with you or not, Padawa (spelling so wrong..)

Then you need to excuse yourself from interaction in cadet activities because that is not an objective of our program.

[raivo]

And believe it or not, I feel it is my duty as a Christian to at least allow the cadets to be introduced to God in some fashion.

Alright, I was on my way out the door and didn't get to give full voice to my thoughts on this.

CAP is not a religious recruiting ground. There are plenty of places to do your "duty as a Christian", and the cadet program ain't it. If you can't accept that, then as A. said, you shouldn't be working with cadets.

If a cadet (or airman) comes to me and asks me about my religious beliefs, I'll be happy to talk it over with them. When I cross the line into unsolicited pressure towards a religion (or lack thereof), I'm failing as a mentor and a leader (not to mention opening a gigantic can of legal worms.)

[Hawk200]

The question becomes are those that pray before a meeting somehow infringe on your rights by doing so or is your right to not pray infringing on their right to?

Nice when someone mentions the gander. Seems like the goose is always getting cooked.

[Major Carrales]

Well, what a ridiculous topic to have taken to this point with out a reality check.

Religion is part of this nation, and, that being so...its free exercise should not be infringed Constitutionally.  Establishment of religion is verboten, but how in the name of reality is giving a blessing in any form establishing a "religion?" 

The 1st Amendment is not designed to be limiting of the religious aspect, in fact, in restricting an established church it is insuring that all persons have their own choice at a religion.

That said, there are a diverse number of persons in our communities and in CAP.  For some reason, there is a preception that seems quite intolerant toward those differing beliefs?  BOTH WAYS.

The fact that a person might br Protestant, Muslim, an athiest, Catholic or Jew does not diminish me in any way.  If I am greeted with the blessing of "Shalom" from a Jewish friend, what in it should I be offended by it?  If someone wants to light a candle for me or say a rosary, why would that be offensive? 

If someone says "God Bless you?" how on earth it that an insult?  In fact, I would think it would be a high honor.  It points out that, no matter your internal personal beliefs about the existance of a diety, that person chose to see you through the highest level of their own existance.  Simply tell them "thank you," and walk on.  If you were offended by it...you are unjustified in being so and just respect/accept their well wishes and move on.

If you tell me you have no god but NATURE, what about that is so offensive?  Should you want to pray next to me, out loud, in whisper or to yourself, how am I diminished?  What does it matter to an Athiest that there is a God, or to a Believer that there isn't and why does knowing eachother's belief bother people?

How can we reconcile these above points?  We seem to have an established chaplain's corps in CAP designed to meet religious needs as well as a counseling function. 

The answer to the original question is simple an found in the "moment of silence."  Those that wish true prayer may do so in their own hearts, those that want to reflect on their day or troops stationed overseas may do so and those that simply want to enjoy a respite from the hustle and bustle of the world can take a 45 second nap have at it.

Really...you would think that you people here just want something to hate each other about.  I know some of you are at the edge of you seat waiting to comment negatively on some topic here...please, stand down.

[RiverAux]

The answer to the original question is simple an found in the "moment of silence."  Those that wish true prayer may do so in their own hearts, those that want to reflect on their day or troops stationed overseas may do so and those that simply want to enjoy a respite from the hustle and bustle of the world can take a 45 second nap have at it.

Quite frankly, I've got to ask why even that is needed.  I can think of no reason why the occassion of a CAP squadron meeting should have a moment of silence.  Should any and all public gatherings have them?  What I ask myself about anything that goes on at a CAP activity is "What is this doing for CAP?". 

[jimmydeanno]

Does your religion require you to lead others in a group prayer prior to every activity/action you take part in?

Prayer is a basic tenant of most faiths.  It is a way for the believer to clear their mind, gain perspective, motivation, and gain favour of their deity.

We make (reasonable) accommodations at encampments and other functions for members to practice their faith as they need to, whether that be a Muslim cadet having to leave portions of an activity to pray or wear a hijab in their uniform.  I've also seen cadets who attend encampment at a later date because they are Orthodox Jews and aren't allowed to travel by car on certain days.

My point had nothing to do with what my religion requires, but that becoming a CAP member isn't going to change peoples basic tenants of their faith. 

I also can't help but notice that if you are opposed to praying during those times, you aren't participating in the prayer - even if you are standing there.  If you are standing there while everyone else is praying, thinking, "This is the stupidest thing ever, I can't wait for it to end..." you aren't participating.

[Major Carrales]

The answer to the original question is simple an found in the "moment of silence."  Those that wish true prayer may do so in their own hearts, those that want to reflect on their day or troops stationed overseas may do so and those that simply want to enjoy a respite from the hustle and bustle of the world can take a 45 second nap have at it.

Quite frankly, I've got to ask why even that is needed.  I can think of no reason why the occassion of a CAP squadron meeting should have a moment of silence.  Should any and all public gatherings have them?  What I ask myself about anything that goes on at a CAP activity is "What is this doing for CAP?".

I am thinking that, if there is to be anything most central to CAP, it is the members.  Missions don't happen without members to see them through to fruition.  You would likly force me then, to poll the membership about the continued practice of a moment of silence.  Rest assured, it was done years back and the idea was deemed innovative in solving the issue of an invocation.

Since there is no prescribed meeting opening, I am sure that we have wide latitiude in that for just such purposes as this.  I am also sure that some meetings across this land range from any of the following...

Strict Military Formations- Seniors and Cadets, maybe even just Seniors in some places
Radio/Television Show Meeting Format-
Corporate Meeting-
Civic Organization-
School Activity Style-
Old guys sitting around a table talking-
Regular Meetings don't occur in favor of meetings at the hangar and gathering around the Plane-

And CAPTALKERs will find some issue with everyone of these, demonize some, make trival points about the "nature of the organization" based on how they think is should be.

And so...after all that has been written...WHAT'S YOUR POINT?

[A.Member]

Prayer is a basic tenant of most faiths.  It is a way for the believer to clear their mind, gain perspective, motivation, and gain favour of their deity.

Sure but does it require you to command the attention of others while you do so aloud?

Again, the issue is moot nonetheless because the objective of CAP is not to provide a prayer forum. 

[raivo]

Is there really any need for it? Probably not. Is it a tradition? Yes. Do I really care? No.

I'm a deist. I don't care if other people choose to pray, I don't get offended if people mention God in my presence, I don't mind staying silent while the chaplain says a few nondenominational words. (In every RM ceremony I've attended, the chaplain invariably uses the deliberate phrase "I invite you to join me..." rather than "Please join me" to avoid the implication that you SHOULD be joining in.)

[Major Carrales]

Sure but does it require you to command the attention of others while you do so aloud?

Not really, no more so than electing not to listen to people talking at normal voice at a restaurant or ignoring some public address system while at an airshow while your attention is one something else.  So long as you do not distrub those who do want to listen to that public address sytem or do not interfer in the restaurant talker because you disagree with them.  I guess its about, in that case, civility.

I don't know why this is a big issue here. 

[lordmonar]

The question becomes are those that pray before a meeting somehow infringe on your rights by doing so or is your right to not pray infringing on their right to?

Nice when someone mentions the gander. Seems like the goose is always getting cooked.

If I were to go to your church and asked you to refrain from praying....that would be very wrong. 
If I were to go to your house and asked you to refrain from praying....that is very wrong.
But we are at CAP.
Checked the regs and saw nothing that said we have to pray.  Prayer is not part of the CAP program.  It is allowed by current regs.....but should it.

No one is saying you can't pray....we (those of us who object) just ask that you don't subject us to it.  We came for the meeting/training/mission.

Imagine if I arrived at your church on Sunday Morning and asked everyone to sit through an ES briefing.  That would be wrong (and boring )because MY ES briefing has nothing to do with the business at hand at the church.

[Major Carrales]

Imagine if I arrived at your church on Sunday Morning and asked everyone to sit through and ES briefing.  That would be wrong because MY ES briefing has nothing to do with the business at hand at the church.

Don't go to chuch much do you?   Often times there are presentations from community and Civic Groups that have nothing to do with doctrine.  One simply respects these presentations and presenters whether or not one is interested and allows them finish.  Thus, the interested parties get the info, the others simply take it for what its worth.

[tdepp]

The world survived for a long time with everyone believing it was flat.

And I suppose they also would have thought the Bernoulli Principle, which explains why our Cessna 182s can fly, was the devil's handiwork as well?   :angel:

[Major Carrales]

The world survived for a long time with everyone believing it was flat.

And I suppose they also would have thought the Bernoulli Principle, which explains why our Cessna 182s can fly, was the devil's handiwork as well?   :angel:

I think we are really taking this too far...please stop.

[DogCollar]

This has gone pretty far afield.....

The Chaplain Corps has strict rules (NOT always followed, however) guiding our work.  Prayer, like anything else a Chaplain does, is to meet a real need.  It cannot be an "assumed" need, but a real need.

A Chaplain has the obligation to meet the need with a principle that "thou shall not create more problems in the process!!"  Meaning, if there is a certain population that finds a group prayer at a CAP meeting is needed and helpful to the mission at hand, then that group should be allowed to pray...BUT, it cannot be mandatory, and no retaliation or negative judgement can be made of those who chose not to participate.

At the same time, if there is a group that is adamantly opposed, or offended by group prayer during a meeting, then that should be respected out of courtesy to those offended and accommodations for those who wish to pray together should be made outside the realm of an official meeting.

The first rule of chaplaincy is to recognize that CAP exists within a pluralistic society.  There are all manner of faith groups and non-faith groups that are woven into the fabric of the nation and the Constitution, wisely, protects belief and unbelief.  A Chaplain should never assume that everything he/she does or says is welcome by all in CAP.  However, if needed by anyone, a Chaplain should be willing and able to offer themselves as agents of help, or if running counter to his or her endorsing faith group, find appropriate resources to help.

Proselytizing by a Chaplain in CAP runs counter to the CAP Chaplain Corps Code of Ethics and is grounds for 2b'ing a Chaplain.

Can we move on from this topic now?

[RRLE]

Meaning, if there is a certain population that finds a group prayer at a CAP meeting is needed and helpful to the mission at hand, then that group should be allowed to pray...BUT, it cannot be mandatory, and no retaliation or negative judgement can be made of those who chose not to participate.

So that should mean that a member who did not want to participate should not be retaliated against for deciding to sit during a prayer or moment of silence since standing could/would be considered participating.

[AirAux]

I'm sorry, but I couldn't let this one go by.  Can't you all see that the minority view is winning through political correctness?  I don't know of a Christian faith or a Bible that doesn't direct one to go forth and spread the news.  Now, due to political correctness, a man of faith, a Chaplain no less, has been instructed not to spread the faith for fear of being 2b'd and thrown out of the program..  The atheist and agnostics have won, their non-beliefs are stronger and more important, and more controlling than the beliefs of the majority.  It is hard to believe that a Chaplain would deny the strongest tenet of the faith, to spread the word to all.  I seem to remember something in the Bible about the preachers being held to a higher standard when they get to heaven.  Now I understand why..  How can God expect anyone to obey when his own preachers and priests lie down their most trusted responsibilities??  I am disappointed, but not surprised..

[Rotorhead]

I'm sorry, but I couldn't let this one go by.  Can't you all see that the minority view is winning through political correctness?

By definition, the opposition to an invocation (as expressed on this board) is not the "minority" view. It is by far the majority.
I don't agree with it, but I can see that most people here (the "majority") don't want an opening prayer.

[A.Member]

This has gone pretty far afield.....

The Chaplain Corps has strict rules (NOT always followed, however) guiding our work.  Prayer, like anything else a Chaplain does, is to meet a real need.  It cannot be an "assumed" need, but a real need.

A Chaplain has the obligation to meet the need with a principle that "thou shall not create more problems in the process!!"  Meaning, if there is a certain population that finds a group prayer at a CAP meeting is needed and helpful to the mission at hand, then that group should be allowed to pray...BUT, it cannot be mandatory, and no retaliation or negative judgement can be made of those who chose not to participate.

At the same time, if there is a group that is adamantly opposed, or offended by group prayer during a meeting, then that should be respected out of courtesy to those offended and accommodations for those who wish to pray together should be made outside the realm of an official meeting.

The first rule of chaplaincy is to recognize that CAP exists within a pluralistic society.  There are all manner of faith groups and non-faith groups that are woven into the fabric of the nation and the Constitution, wisely, protects belief and unbelief.  A Chaplain should never assume that everything he/she does or says is welcome by all in CAP.  However, if needed by anyone, a Chaplain should be willing and able to offer themselves as agents of help, or if running counter to his or her endorsing faith group, find appropriate resources to help.

Proselytizing by a Chaplain in CAP runs counter to the CAP Chaplain Corps Code of Ethics and is grounds for 2b'ing a Chaplain.

Can we move on from this topic now?

Well said.  :clap: