OK..I'm going to take my last post from a recent thread and use it to create a new thread.
HERE IS THE SENARIO- Unlikely as it might be- Assuming TP and CAP-USAF announce tommorrow that beginning Fiscal Year 08, CAP Seniors may augment on base in ANY NONCOMBAT POSITION or if some would prefer; may assume any job currently held by a civilian contractor
THEN; what roles would / could we as a group and individually strive to integrate with?
As possible examples: Desk Clerk at AF Inn, support at base clinics/hospitals, clerks in Personnel and Admin Flights. Assistant Gate Staff (CAP unit at Scott AFB has done this in the past) Chaplains, Lawyers, etc...
IF GIVEN FREE REIGN ; what would / could YOU do on base?
Chaplaincy roles. This is being done in some areas already.
That's a pretty broad area. Based on my past military experience and civilian jobs, I can think of a number of jobs I could do with a minimal amount of training besides the "warm body" jobs.
Avionics/Electronics Technician
Avionics/Electronics Shop Supervisor
Aircraft Maintenance Technician
Aircraft Maintenance Officer
Vehicle Maintenance Technician
Vehicle Maintencane Shop Supervisor
Vehicle Maintenance Officer
Transportation Officer
Base Engineering-Electrical Engineering
The problem with filling some of the "warm body" jobs and the specific jobs you mentioned that civilian contractors hold is that many of those contractors are military spouses suplimenting their families income. I don't think the military people are really going to want a volunteer taking a job that is putting money in their wife's/husband's/kid's pocket. Also, what would be the economic impact to the surrounding communities if say 50-100 jobs on any given base were suddenly removed to be staffed by volunteers. These are all things the USAF would have to consider in using CAP volunteers in a real and meaningful position. There are some areas where we could provide augmentation, based on individual skills and abilities, but I don't think they would be critical and certainly would not displace contractors.
Well consider the fact that DoD is already downsizing the Air Force so that the Army can be beefed up. Some reports say that some of these AD positions that are being taken away are going to be immediately given to civilian contractors.
So... if the AF is looking to cut back regardless I can see why a CAP member - either vollunteer or paid-per diem - would be of greater interest then a contractor to whom you also pay insurance, health care etc....
In that realm, giving us job protection, then "calling us up on orders" to augment one day, 2 days, a week, a month etc... doesnt seem like a stretch. Especially if they give us a small per diem. <-- they'd still save money
I am sure that many spouses are employed on base; but I also know that the DoD is currently investigating the charge that over 5000 current contractors are not in the US legally.
This was reviewed a lot on a previous thread.
Here's some ideas:
1. Pilots could work in operations as briefers.
2. Public Affairs qualified folks could augment the PA office as media escorts, briefers, and journalists.
3. Medical folks with civilian licensure could work in Health Services.
4. Chaplains... well they're already there.
5. Lawyers could augment the base legal office, especially in the labor-intensive work of preparing wills for deploying troops.
6. We could assist in the SF office by issuing base decals, day passes, etc.
7. We could assist in processing security clearances for military personnel and contractors by fingerprinting and doing the initial interview and application review.
There is plenty we could do. I still think that CAP pilots could fly UAV's, which would free up military pilots.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 07, 2007, 02:36:53 PM
This was reviewed a lot on a previous thread.
Here's some ideas:
1. Pilots could work in operations as briefers.
2. Public Affairs qualified folks could augment the PA office as media escorts, briefers, and journalists.
3. Medical folks with civilian licensure could work in Health Services.
4. Chaplains... well they're already there.
5. Lawyers could augment the base legal office, especially in the labor-intensive work of preparing wills for deploying troops.
6. We could assist in the SF office by issuing base decals, day passes, etc.
7. We could assist in processing security clearances for military personnel and contractors by fingerprinting and doing the initial interview and application review.
There is plenty we could do. I still think that CAP pilots could fly UAV's, which would free up military pilots.
I think your number 5 is on to something.
CAP isn't that good at long term commitments, but we surge well.
Having CAP assist in the deployment processing of units and personnel would be a good thing - it's not constant work, but it is scheduled in advance and only lasts a week or so. It's primarily administrative work, but if we could get enough folks interested, it might work - and it provides direct support to USAF's warfighting mission.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 07, 2007, 02:36:53 PM
This was reviewed a lot on a previous thread.
Here's some ideas:
1. Pilots could work in operations as briefers.
2. Public Affairs qualified folks could augment the PA office as media escorts, briefers, and journalists.
3. Medical folks with civilian licensure could work in Health Services.
4. Chaplains... well they're already there.
5. Lawyers could augment the base legal office, especially in the labor-intensive work of preparing wills for deploying troops.
6. We could assist in the SF office by issuing base decals, day passes, etc.
7. We could assist in processing security clearances for military personnel and contractors by fingerprinting and doing the initial interview and application review.
There is plenty we could do. I still think that CAP pilots could fly UAV's, which would free up military pilots.
1. CAP pilots cannot and will not be allowed to conduct combat or combat training (which is everything USAF does) briefings due to lack of experience in combat, aircraft used, tactics, etc.
3. CAP doctors, nurses, and emt cannot perform any medical functions for the military due to Geneva Conventions and UCMJ regulations (they have insurance too).
4. Assessing security clearances to base facilities is of the outmost importance to USAF and will never be handed off to civillians. The ultimate authority on such rests with the base commander.
I think that any on base augmentation will require USAF to open their tech schools to our members, either in house or through correspondence.
The few areas I see that can be helped with OJT training are:
1. Admin
2. Personnel
3. Finance
4. Logistics (mainly ordering and storage of cargo and parts)
5. Aerial Port (cargo and pax processing)
6. Visitors Center (processing base passes and doing orientations)
7. Recruiting assistance
8. Public Affairs assistance
9. Base museums
10. Services - Dining (serving meals and cleaning up)
11. Services - Recreation (base gym and MWR facilities)
12. Services - Honor Guard (cadet honor guard)
13. Transportation - delivery of supplies and parts on base.
14. Operations Liaison - part of CAP-USAF - a CAP counterpart to our reserve liaisons that would serve to advise base Ops or commanders on CAPs ability to assist the Air Force in support and operational missions/training.
A lot of areas within the US Coast Guard have CG Aux augmentees as you know to include medical.
Here's food for thought: http://www.opr.auxnstaff.org/aux_pal.htm
The framework is there, someone in USAF-CAP needs to develop some brass (reproductive organs)
Quote3. CAP doctors, nurses, and emt cannot perform any medical functions for the military due to Geneva Conventions and UCMJ regulations (they have insurance too).
hmmm, the CG Aux has a medical augmentation program.....
Unfortunately, it is extremely difficult for anyone on the outside to predict where CAP members could best be used in an augmentation role without having a fairly complete list of individual jobs being performed on the base or in any one unit.
Who does medical work for USCG? I thought it was done by the national health administration or whatever it's called...
Depends on the location, I've seen quite a few Coasties at Portsmouth Naval Hospital and at the Navy Health Clinic in Jacksonville when I was on AD.
USCG health is covered by the US Public Health Service. I have contact info for CG AUX medical professional (MD, RN, etc) who would be interested in volunteering time in some local USCG clinics....
So does that mean the USCG Aux augment the US Public Health Service? Is that through an MOU?
Quote from: afgeo4 on February 07, 2007, 09:15:07 PM
Who does medical work for USCG? I thought it was done by the national health administration or whatever it's called...
Im in the program. I serve as an EMT for the coast guard on a regular basis.
It is run through the CG HQ - maybe thats what you mean- but any qualified auxiliarist can do it. I can serve as a sick bay technician at a local station for a day or so at a time or as an EMT onboard during a cruise for up to two or three weeks etc. I can also assist at a Navy base IF THEY ARE SHORTHANDED - ae its not a routine thing.
I know several med personnel were called up from the Aux to assist during Katrina for example. You are actually on orders etc... and those in the program get a CG CAC card with "Aux" in the rank/grade area.
Meh...hope it helps
Quote from: afgeo4 on February 07, 2007, 09:44:10 PM
So does that mean the USCG Aux augment the US Public Health Service? Is that through an MOU?
Not really. If the Auxiliarist volunteers in a large clinic that happens to have a USPHS officer on board, then they will work together. Not by MOU. The Auxiliarist will need to undergo a credentialing process similar to AD.
More often that not, the scenario involves an auxilarist working with the enlisted clinic staff (some HC's and IDC) doing things ranging from administrative to pre-deployment physical exams.
Quote from: afgeo4 on February 07, 2007, 09:44:10 PM
So does that mean the USCG Aux augment the US Public Health Service? Is that through an MOU?
No idea... the only med staff Ive actually encountered wore CG uniforms. As to wether or not they were a Public Health type in a CG uniform I dont know. (public health does have a uniform, but its a variation of the warrant officer uniform if I remember correctly)
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 07, 2007, 09:52:11 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on February 07, 2007, 09:44:10 PM
So does that mean the USCG Aux augment the US Public Health Service? Is that through an MOU?
No idea... the only med staff Ive actually encountered wore CG uniforms. As to wether or not they were a Public Health type in a CG uniform I dont know. (public health does have a uniform, but its a variation of the warrant officer uniform if I remember correctly)
Refer to www.usphs.gov, scroll over the tab "About The Corps", select "uniforms" for an example.
When PHS officers are assigned to the "OPDIV" U.S. Coast Guard, they wear the CG uniform with PHS device on the hard shoulder boards, collar/sleeve devices, and service cap(s).
Quote from: afgeo4 on February 07, 2007, 07:17:29 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 07, 2007, 02:36:53 PM
This was reviewed a lot on a previous thread.
Here's some ideas:
1. Pilots could work in operations as briefers.
2. Public Affairs qualified folks could augment the PA office as media escorts, briefers, and journalists.
3. Medical folks with civilian licensure could work in Health Services.
4. Chaplains... well they're already there.
5. Lawyers could augment the base legal office, especially in the labor-intensive work of preparing wills for deploying troops.
6. We could assist in the SF office by issuing base decals, day passes, etc.
7. We could assist in processing security clearances for military personnel and contractors by fingerprinting and doing the initial interview and application review.
There is plenty we could do. I still think that CAP pilots could fly UAV's, which would free up military pilots.
1. CAP pilots cannot and will not be allowed to conduct combat or combat training (which is everything USAF does) briefings due to lack of experience in combat, aircraft used, tactics, etc.
3. CAP doctors, nurses, and emt cannot perform any medical functions for the military due to Geneva Conventions and UCMJ regulations (they have insurance too).
4. Assessing security clearances to base facilities is of the outmost importance to USAF and will never be handed off to civillians. The ultimate authority on such rests with the base commander.
I think that any on base augmentation will require USAF to open their tech schools to our members, either in house or through correspondence.
The few areas I see that can be helped with OJT training are:
1. Admin
2. Personnel
3. Finance
4. Logistics (mainly ordering and storage of cargo and parts)
5. Aerial Port (cargo and pax processing)
6. Visitors Center (processing base passes and doing orientations)
7. Recruiting assistance
8. Public Affairs assistance
9. Base museums
10. Services - Dining (serving meals and cleaning up)
11. Services - Recreation (base gym and MWR facilities)
12. Services - Honor Guard (cadet honor guard)
13. Transportation - delivery of supplies and parts on base.
14. Operations Liaison - part of CAP-USAF - a CAP counterpart to our reserve liaisons that would serve to advise base Ops or commanders on CAPs ability to assist the Air Force in support and operational missions/training.
George:
The security clearance processing would be limited to fingerprinting and completion of the initial packet. These are not critical tasks, and are frequently handled by low-level clerical personnel, including civilians.
I'm pretty well-versed in the Law of War, having served on a general staff, and having participated actively in writing the SOP for EPW operations for the Army. Please cite for me which Protocol that you think would ban irregular troops from providing medical support.
In order to be a flight briefer, it is not necessary to know the specific flight characteristics of each aircraft. You just have to know about weather reporting and forecasting products, which any pilot would know, and you have to understand airspace restrictions, TFR's and similar navigational issues. Again, this does not relate to specific aircraft performance, that's for the pilot to worry about. The last time I was briefed at an Air Force base in flight operations, it was by a senior airman who never even asked what type of aircraft I was flying until he filled out the flight plan form. Also, I don't understand how you consider flight briefing to be "Combat."
Hey Maj. K, after we're done assisting in Air Ops, we can swing by the mess hall and if George is done sweeping up the deck and wiping down the trays, we'll take him out for a drink and hearty congratulations on a job well done!
QuoteI know several med personnel were called up from the Aux to assist during Katrina for example. You are actually on orders etc... and those in the program get a CG CAC card with "Aux" in the rank/grade area.
Very interesting! Why can't CAP get the same when performing AIR FORCE missions? I just don't understand what is up with the AF. They assign us to work for them, but treat us worse than contractors. More than not, the members of CAP are more educated, more mannered and capable of a whole lot more than the local burger king kid (who gets a CAC for working for AAFES) on Base. Heck, the PRISONERS at MAXWELL AFB who perform custodial work in the NHQ building get CAC cards. PRISONERS?!?
I guess I have no idea what I am talking about.
Quote from: aveighter on February 08, 2007, 12:43:14 AM
Hey Maj. K, after we're done assisting in Air Ops, we can swing by the mess hall and if George is done sweeping up the deck and wiping down the trays, we'll take him out for a drink and hearty congratulations on a job well done!
LOL!!!!!!!!! :D
Quote from: Al Sayre on February 07, 2007, 12:42:49 PM
The problem with filling some of the "warm body" jobs and the specific jobs you mentioned that civilian contractors hold is that many of those contractors are military spouses suplimenting their families income. I don't think the military people are really going to want a volunteer taking a job that is putting money in their wife's/husband's/kid's pocket. Also, what would be the economic impact to the surrounding communities if say 50-100 jobs on any given base were suddenly removed to be staffed by volunteers. These are all things the USAF would have to consider in using CAP volunteers in a real and meaningful position. There are some areas where we could provide augmentation, based on individual skills and abilities, but I don't think they would be critical and certainly would not displace contractors.
That's valid statements, but I'm going ot disagree. What you just said sounds amazingly like what you hear from communities during BRAC. The better answer is to pay service memebrs right & cut overpaid contractor jobs.
You have to keep perspective on this though. Part-time & weekend volunteers aren't going to keep a place running. You still need a full-time staff during the day & can then operate in off-hours with a skeleton crew backed up by specialized augmentees. You know Walmart does a whole lot with part-time/wknd employees.
What could I do though? Well hell I don't know. I'd have to see the job requirements. I'm sure I could do some ops stuff, most staff officer roles, structural engineering, project mgmt, PIO, govt relations, bunch of that kinda crap. Probably quite a bit more if I had a track of what AFIADL courses I needed to enroll in & what practical OJT or remedial training I needed to do. Oh say exactly like these guys in an SDF did: http://www.agd.state.tx.us/StateGuard/air/show_news.asp?ID=14 (http://www.agd.state.tx.us/StateGuard/air/show_news.asp?ID=14)
Quote from: DNall on February 08, 2007, 10:02:31 PM
Quote from: Al Sayre on February 07, 2007, 12:42:49 PM
The problem with filling some of the "warm body" jobs and the specific jobs you mentioned that civilian contractors hold is that many of those contractors are military spouses suplimenting their families income. I don't think the military people are really going to want a volunteer taking a job that is putting money in their wife's/husband's/kid's pocket. Also, what would be the economic impact to the surrounding communities if say 50-100 jobs on any given base were suddenly removed to be staffed by volunteers. These are all things the USAF would have to consider in using CAP volunteers in a real and meaningful position. There are some areas where we could provide augmentation, based on individual skills and abilities, but I don't think they would be critical and certainly would not displace contractors.
That's valid statements, but I'm going ot disagree. What you just said sounds amazingly like what you hear from communities during BRAC. The better answer is to pay service memebrs right & cut overpaid contractor jobs.
You have to keep perspective on this though. Part-time & weekend volunteers aren't going to keep a place running. You still need a full-time staff during the day & can then operate in off-hours with a skeleton crew backed up by specialized augmentees. You know Walmart does a whole lot with part-time/wknd employees.
What could I do though? Well hell I don't know. I'd have to see the job requirements. I'm sure I could do some ops stuff, most staff officer roles, structural engineering, project mgmt, PIO, govt relations, bunch of that kinda crap. Probably quite a bit more if I had a track of what AFIADL courses I needed to enroll in & what practical OJT or remedial training I needed to do. Oh say exactly like these guys in an SDF did: http://www.agd.state.tx.us/StateGuard/air/show_news.asp?ID=14 (http://www.agd.state.tx.us/StateGuard/air/show_news.asp?ID=14)
There is a big difference between a part-time/weekend employee and what CAP can bring to the fight. A week end employee may only work 2 days a week...but he works them every weekend. How much time can you give to CAP? At most you can get a few days a month or a whole week ever other month. As it is now...I am commited to 1 night a week and 1-2 day per month doing CAP stuff. That I have to share with my work, my family, and my self. I may be able to get a couple of weeks off for CAP...but I would rather go to a NBB or an encampment or NESA than go to the base and work in the personnel officer or pass and ID.
This is a great sentiment....but I just don't see it being very practical.
Pat:
You are right, of course. Here at PAFB, we have CAP folks starting to help out with tours of the unclassified and non-sensitive areas of the Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, including the historic launch sites. I can give them a couple of hours a week, but that's all. And I'm a retired slug with no actual function left on this planet. We are asking for a couple of hours a month from the folks who actually work and pay taxes.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 09, 2007, 12:54:40 AM
There is a big difference between a part-time/weekend employee and what CAP can bring to the fight. A week end employee may only work 2 days a week...but he works them every weekend. How much time can you give to CAP? At most you can get a few days a month or a whole week ever other month. As it is now...I am commited to 1 night a week and 1-2 day per month doing CAP stuff. That I have to share with my work, my family, and my self. I may be able to get a couple of weeks off for CAP...but I would rather go to a NBB or an encampment or NESA than go to the base and work in the personnel officer or pass and ID.
This is a great sentiment....but I just don't see it being very practical.
I haven't had a CAP free wknd in two months, worked CAP Xmas eve & not even on a mission, & don't have a CAP-free wknd till mid-may. A bit over 60hr a month I'd say, sometimes a lot more, but at least that. And it's too much, I want to cut back.
I could do a wknd a month though, that's what SDFs do. I don't know about CGAux, but they're probably either doing only that or not doing much more than a wknd a month. maybe a couple three hours a couple nights a week. We're not looking at a 1-for-1 replacement of contractors. Just supplemental employees that can back up short-staffed shifts a few times a month, use a lot of people tied to one unit cycling theu a handful of slots (the walmart way) and you can cut a few slots down I think.
Sure you could do it...so my unit has 100 members about 50 active. How many of them would be able to donate a day a month? 25-30? Would that be benificial to the USAF? Would the workcenters who got us really be able to use us? Maybe...maybe not. I just don't see the value added and I can see where it would hurt us in other areas. YMMV.
If you think it would fly and work...go for it. Organise your unit, contact the local USAF base and implement it....and let's see.
I know that somewhere in all this nonsense, there is a glimmer of noble intent, but I read all this, and can't help the disturbing vision of geekazoid CAP member saying "Hey sergeant, when I'm done sweeping the floor, can I sit in the neat-o airplane for just five minutes? Huh? Huh? Pleeeeese???"
I am proud to be a CAP member. I am proud of the skill set I brought to CAP, and even more proud of those that I acquired since joining CAP. I am thankful for the opportunity to dilligently put those skills to use in accomplishing CAP's mission, and would like to think that my collegues and I perform our duties in earnest with a sense of dignity and professionalism.
Quick review: what is our mission? Altogether now: Emergency Services/Homeland Security, Develop America's Youth, and Inform the Public on Aerospace Power and Development.
The driving force of an organization is the accomplishment of its mission, no? (for those of you who want to squeeze every drop of military-type mojo from CAP, and do it like the pros do, here's a hint: mission, mission, mission.)
With that said, tell me: How exactly is bussing tables at a Dining Facility, doing stints as a "cabana-boy" at the base pool, or even handing out moist towelettes and breath-mints in the men's room of the Pentagon going to contribute to the accomplishment of our mission??
Call me kooky, but I find something a tad-bit wrong with this scenario: "Welcome to the Wright-Patterson O-club: if your glass is empty, simply raise your hand, and our helpful Civil Air Patrol Major will refresh your drink for you...."
Let's approach this from another angle: Bases stimulate the local economy. Suppose I'm a senator/congressman with a military installation in my district: would I support legislation that would take away the potential for employment of my constituents, and give them to CAP?
When the call is made for CAP members to make a contribution to their community and nation in the manner in which they were trained, whether as a separate entity or directly assisting USAF, I'm your man.
When a bunch of "Groupies" scramble to do anything for a chance to hang-out with gen-u-ine warfighters and bask in the weird glow of a military installation, and with a little luck, obtain the holy-grail of all wannabees, a CAC card, I think I'll pass.
You know what tickles me? Folks are reading this post, and thinking, "he just doesn't get it, does he??"
;D
Besides the rather obvious augmentation roles (lawyers and other such professionals) I tend to think that for "unskilled" CAP members (meaning those that would need OJT to do a particular augmentation job), we would be better off focusing CAP members on supporting only one or two units at any particular air base. This would make administering the program, both from the CAP side and the AF side somewhat easier as relationships would only need to be maintained with a relatively small group of people. So, rather than having CAP members spread so far across the base that no one notices what they're doing, we would have an opportunity to really have an impact on one unit.
Now, I don't think that a significant percentage of current CAP members would drop what they're doing and only do augmentation. They didn't join CAP to do that. However, I believe people would join CAP in the future to do augmentation were it actually a viable option. I think the State Defense Forces focused on NG augmentation show that this can be the case.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that CAP members would be taking over a lot of permanent positions. However, there is a lot to be said to be able to call in some CAP people to fill in while your regular folks go do training or concentrate on higher priority tasks for a short while.
I think if you'll check the law & history you'll find that the three blades on that prop just represent what were the the three primary missions of a larger list at the begining. If you'll then look at the current law you'll find that at least AE has dropped back on that list & ES is replaced with "non-combat missions of the Air Force." Now I don't know what non-combat missions of the AF means to you, but to me it means everything that don't involve pulling a trigger. Seems the AF agrees with that limit as they've decided direct combat support is allowable & assigned us stuff like radar intercept targets & HLD missions. Now I don't know what all we can or can't do, but augmentation sure does fill the bill on that new mission we've been assigned these last six years.
I think you can look to SDFs & CGAux working that angle with their parent services for a long time now & not having a whole lot of trouble doing it. They don't play "cabana boy" either, they are either professionally degreed & certified or they are AFSC/MOS qualified.
Quote from: RiverAux on February 09, 2007, 03:51:26 AMHowever, there is a lot to be said to be able to call in some CAP people to fill in while your regular folks go do training or concentrate on higher priority tasks for a short while.
Now that I could see. The base is doing an exercise and CAP volunteers come in and run the Gym...because the military folk are out playing Army for a week. That I could see us doing...and would even help out. But sustained???? No, I don't see it.
Quote from: RiverAux on February 09, 2007, 03:51:26 AM
Besides the rather obvious augmentation roles (lawyers and other such professionals) I tend to think that for "unskilled" CAP members (meaning those that would need OJT to do a particular augmentation job), we would be better off focusing CAP members on supporting only one or two units at any particular air base. This would make administering the program, both from the CAP side and the AF side somewhat easier as relationships would only need to be maintained with a relatively small group of people. So, rather than having CAP members spread so far across the base that no one notices what they're doing, we would have an opportunity to really have an impact on one unit.
I believe people would join CAP in the future to do augmentation were it actually a viable option.
I don't think anyone here is arguing that CAP members would be taking over a lot of permanent positions. However, there is a lot to be said to be able to call in some CAP people to fill in while your regular folks go do training or concentrate on higher priority tasks for a short while.
Sure...the ability to augment and actually DO something is one reason why i joined the CG-Aux. - Yes Im a GTM/L in CAP but in my years Ive never had 1 single mission. My squadron as a unit has never responded to one single mission. We have a very high turn over rate for Seniors. The seniors show up, get the Check rides etc, maybe get an ES rating in UDF and a tech rating , but then they realize that (at our unit anyway) the chance of using the skills is NIL. So they ditch us. If I am given the ability to augment at a base then I will do it. And so would all the Seniors that have left my unit over the years.
From a membership- ability standpoint I agree that we might want to focus on a few areas. Such as:
Personnel/Admin
Public Affairs/ Tours
Flight Ops/ Briefings
You would not see a CAP Lt. Col. handing out towels for Services at the Pool.
By that same token. When a CG-Aux member augments he or she doesnt wear his epulets. He puts on a "Aux" device
We could do this too. So it wouldnt be... Raise your hand and the CAP Major will refill your glass, but: The Auxiliarist /Auxie/ CAP member will help you. The Major would wear Majors epulets, but rather an Auxiliary insignia.
But.. as far as job placement is concerned.. I think they would take our level of experience into consideration.. A CAP Major who is into Flight Ops, Met, and a CFI should be in the briefing room. Let the 2nd Lt. who doesnt have any quals serve drinks. etc...
Im a 1st Lt. -soon to be Capt- and an EMT and a Personnel/Admin type
I can help in the Clinic, or Personnel Flight, but Id suck in the briefing room.
All that said...
I may be shooting myself in the foot because I was knocked from AFROTC and thus college because of a medical issue. It doesnt bother my normal life or anything (childhood asthma) but it was enough to get my out of ROTC when they cancelled my med waiver. If we augment on base, would we have to meet the AD physical/health standards, or could we get waivers? (that dont get pulled)
OR, is this a null issue?
lordm... If by sustained you mean 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, no you will not see that. Full-time for a week or two as "surge capacity" -- yes, that could happen.
However, sustained part-time (maybe 1-2 days a week) work more or less on a permanent basis, is much more likely to be where any augmentation program would go and I believe that would be fully feasible. There have been CG Auxies pulling radio shifts every week for 10-15 years.
There are very few places where I've worked that I couldn't use such a part-time person.
Quote from: O-Rex on February 09, 2007, 03:43:27 AM
I know that somewhere in all this nonsense, there is a glimmer of noble intent, but I read all this, and can't help the disturbing vision of geekazoid CAP member saying "Hey sergeant, when I'm done sweeping the floor, can I sit in the neat-o airplane for just five minutes? Huh? Huh? Pleeeeese???"
I am proud to be a CAP member. I am proud of the skill set I brought to CAP, and even more proud of those that I acquired since joining CAP. I am thankful for the opportunity to dilligently put those skills to use in accomplishing CAP's mission, and would like to think that my collegues and I perform our duties in earnest with a sense of dignity and professionalism.
Quick review: what is our mission? Altogether now: Emergency Services/Homeland Security, Develop America's Youth, and Inform the Public on Aerospace Power and Development.
The driving force of an organization is the accomplishment of its mission, no? (for those of you who want to squeeze every drop of military-type mojo from CAP, and do it like the pros do, here's a hint: mission, mission, mission.)
With that said, tell me: How exactly is bussing tables at a Dining Facility, doing stints as a "cabana-boy" at the base pool, or even handing out moist towelettes and breath-mints in the men's room of the Pentagon going to contribute to the accomplishment of our mission??
Call me kooky, but I find something a tad-bit wrong with this scenario: "Welcome to the Wright-Patterson O-club: if your glass is empty, simply raise your hand, and our helpful Civil Air Patrol Major will refresh your drink for you...."
Let's approach this from another angle: Bases stimulate the local economy. Suppose I'm a senator/congressman with a military installation in my district: would I support legislation that would take away the potential for employment of my constituents, and give them to CAP?
When the call is made for CAP members to make a contribution to their community and nation in the manner in which they were trained, whether as a separate entity or directly assisting USAF, I'm your man.
When a bunch of "Groupies" scramble to do anything for a chance to hang-out with gen-u-ine warfighters and bask in the weird glow of a military installation, and with a little luck, obtain the holy-grail of all wannabees, a CAC card, I think I'll pass.
You know what tickles me? Folks are reading this post, and thinking, "he just doesn't get it, does he??"
;D
O-Rex:
You are absolutely right. We all got a chuckle out of the suggestion that officers do KP.
We have Congressional authority to perform any non-combat mission of the Air Force. If one considers a war an "Emergency," the definition of "Emergency Services" can be stretched to include providing temporary help for personnel shortages to the USAF. This help should be at jobs that are not inconsistent with officer rank. If you go back to the list I came up with, I think that you will fin a few good ideas in there, which do not include fatigue details.
For example: The PA shop could probably use a CAP officer (or cadet) to go out and do a story about something on base. There as some information earlier that some base newspapers would have to shut down due to a shortage of Air Force journalists. The base newspaper is an important way that the commander can communicate with the base community, and should be preserved, if possible. We can help with that.
We can also provide some clerical support, as well as professional support during times when the base is facing special demands, such as deploying troops. I mentioned using our lawyers to help out. Our medics can help out with immunizations, Officers (and cadets) without particular professional skill can assist with personnel movement, especially on the flight line.
One of our captains approached Patrick AFB and offered CAP officers and cadets to help out with tours of historic launch sites at Cape Canaveral AFS, which had been suspended dueto security concerns after 9/11. He worked out an agreement, and we are starting those tours in April. We will have a CAP officer or cadet (The base required that cadets be at least 16) escorting tours, and explaining the space program's early development from the actual blockhouse and firing room that launched the Exploter I sattelite, and Alan Sheppard/Gus Grisson in the Mercury program. CAP will be in uniform and representing the US Air Force, replacing NCO's from the 45th Space Wing who formerly conducted the tours. That would, I think, come under "External Aerospace Education," and I think the program is great. I am completing my training on Sunday, and will be on the schedule in April.
I think this is, at least with most of us, less the "Wannabe Warfighter" syndrome as it is the "I want to do what I can to help, so put me in, Coach" mentality.
Quote from: RiverAux on February 09, 2007, 02:12:44 PM
lordm... If by sustained you mean 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year, no you will not see that. Full-time for a week or two as "surge capacity" -- yes, that could happen.
However, sustained part-time (maybe 1-2 days a week) work more or less on a permanent basis, is much more likely to be where any augmentation program would go and I believe that would be fully feasible. There have been CG Auxies pulling radio shifts every week for 10-15 years.
There are very few places where I've worked that I couldn't use such a part-time person.
Hence the reason I am saying it is NOT a complete waste of time to try.....however.....the CG seems to have a much better rerlationship with their AUX than the USAF does with us.
Quote
Hence the reason I am saying it is NOT a complete waste of time to try.....however.....the CG seems to have a much better rerlationship with their AUX than the USAF does with us.
Part of that is due to the fact that the CG is the smallest service and truely needs the Aux to be able to complete all its missions. Another reason it is better is simply because the CG has always been responsible for it and in control: there never was a corporate side, or anyone who ever tried to drag the CG-Aux away from the Coast Guard.
Quote from: lordmonar on February 09, 2007, 04:07:59 PM
Hence the reason I am saying it is NOT a complete waste of time to try.....however.....the CG seems to have a much better rerlationship with their AUX than the USAF does with us.
Is that chicken & egg though? I mean I know augmentation isn't nearly the only thing they do, but a lot of people will tell you the reason their relationship is what it is is BECAUSE they work side-by-side on a regular basis. It's easy for AF to imagine CAP members as worthless idiots, especially when all they know are the stories they've heard & the one badly uniformed person they once saw. But, not so easy when they know & work with a competent person. Part of the reason we're talking about this is that it helps to transform the relationship. The other part of course being that this is the most direct route to fulfill "non-combat missions of the AF"
QuotePart of that is due to the fact that the CG is the smallest service and truely needs the Aux to be able to complete all its missions. Another reason it is better is simply because the CG has always been responsible for it and in control: there never was a corporate side, or anyone who ever tried to drag the CG-Aux away from the Coast Guard.
Also true, but AF is in the middle of cutting tens of thousands of people, a small portion of which will be replaced with contractors. This is not because the AF needs to be smaller, in fact it says it needs to be bigger to accomplish its mission, but the Army needs the money/people in the short term. That creates a hole that needs filling, even if there wasn't one to start with.
If you'll look to SDFs & CGAux, they aren't doing KP. A limited number of jobs in a limited number of units are picked out & a CAP unit is partnered with them to help fill those part-time positions, In the case of SDFs, it's usually filled with retired military personnel working in their same job field. We can talk about the phsychology on that if you like, but it happens & in droves. They also qualify new people in a very limited number of fields that can be done at little or no cost. And then of course there's the professionally degreed folks. Now this effort starts with the professional degrees. No one I believe is disputing that a state certified engineer can help design a water drainage plan for the AF at no charge, and that the AF would be happy to have it with the guy in or out of uniform or on the facility or not. I don't believe anyone has aproblem with attornies helping troops & families with civilian legal matters as their pro bono work. Obviously no one has trouble with chaplains or medical professionals filling in.
Sure it is a chicken and egg situaiton.
Go to the nearest USAF base and talk with the Wing Commander. Find out what he needs help with, what training would be required. Recruit your augmentees, conduct your training, schedule them up and execute your plan.
If it works...write up a white paper on it and submit it up to the USAF and CAP for implementation across the counrty.
I'm glad you all got a chuckle out of CAP members performing KP, but...
1. If there is a shortage of service squadron personnel and airment aren't getting properly fed, how thankful do you think those airmen and the base staff including the CC would be if we did the job?
2. Do you guys have your noses stuck at 30,000 ft? What? Real KP duty is far too beneath you?
3. Cadets can do many tasks of KP.
4. This has been done at 174th Fighter Wing, NYANG and with great success and the base was VERY thankful and in fact, they were the ones to appoach us for help, not the other way around. Their budget was slashed and they could not sustain enough service personnel for non-UTA weekends even though they were in high tempo flight ops training at the time.
Now, the question here was what is it that CAP could do to boost the Air Force's operational abilities, not what it is that CAP could do to boost its members egos.
I'm happy that so many of you like to pretend you're Generals and Air Force Chiefs of Staff, but you're not. You're simply Auxiliarists. We are all less qualified to do the jobs than professional Airmen. Otherwise, someone would pay you to do those jobs already. So, drop your attitudes and look for ways we can help the real Air Force with real tasks that they really need.
P.S. Weather briefings are not mission briefings. The SrA that did that weather briefing was a weather airman. Unless you're a professional weather forecaster, please don't pretend you can do the briefing. The actual mission briefings are usually done by the flight leader and the information is usually on the mission parameters, not atmospheric conditions. That's what weather briefings are for. There are also intel briefings. We can't do that either.
"Mission first, people always!"
Quote from: lordmonar on February 09, 2007, 06:39:48 PM
Sure it is a chicken and egg situaiton.
Go to the nearest USAF base and talk with the Wing Commander. Find out what he needs help with, what training would be required. Recruit your augmentees, conduct your training, schedule them up and execute your plan.
If it works...write up a white paper on it and submit it up to the USAF and CAP for implementation across the counrty.
That's been done & on a pretty wide scale already. Very informal though & very limited to volunteer work kind of tasks. CGAux & SDF now, they train to military standards (AFSC/MOS) and fill man for man into one of those jobs for the time they are there. It's a limited number of AFSCs & limite dnumber of units, but they do real world stuff, even some secure stuff. What I'm looking for in this is to move up from parking cars & answering phones to making qualified people available to stand watches, just like those others have been doing for decades now.
I think if you put CAP members on professional tasks next to AF personnel that over time you'll see the opinion of CPA change, and the education level AF personnel have about us go way up. It's something of potentially huge benefit to both CAP & the AF, but it'll take time to build. The question here is should this large scale structure program be built in partnership w/ AF, and where do you draw the lines to make it effective.
I think the issue will always come down to funding. Making sure that the members we put on the lines are properly taken care of, properly fed, uniformed, trained, etc. All of that takes money. Currently, the SDFs training is paid by the State's military department which also pays for the National Guard. Since the money is allocated anyway, it makes little difference who gets paid. The state can choose to pay a national guardsman to do the job or they can just fund the training for the state guardsman. Either way, they're the state's military. Remember, the state pays for the SDF member's training, food, uniform, and if activated, the member receives pay and allowances. In NY Guard, SAD pays $100 per day to enlisted men, regardless of paygrade.
Now, if you say "hey, that's where we can save you money!", remember, the state cannot make us responsible for things they do not pay for. So, our training, if not provided by the state or the federal government, is just for kicks. They cannot hold us responsible for being properly trained if they don't provide or fund the training. Same for uniforms.
Now, if you're a security forces SrA (for example) and a CAP officer shows up for his watch and he's wearing a pair of slacks and a polo because no one issued him/her a uniform and he doesn't know how to check ID's because no one paid to train him/her, what use is it to the Airman? It just takes his attention away from his job. Also, what image of CAP does it reflect?
If we want our forces to be professionally trained to do a job, we're going to have to find a way to fund that. The way to do that is to petition the Air Force to create such a program and then petition the Congress for the appropriate funds. Will it happen? Not while there's a war going on. The Army and USMC need waaaaay too much money for someone to appropriate additional funding to the Air Force. Or worse, the Congress may love the idea and issue funding for it... along with appropriate downsizing of the force for USAF to account for the new help.
I think you're really overestimating the importance of funding for an augmentation program. Most SDFs get less state funding than do many CAP Wings. Yes, there are some situations where SDF members get paid to do the job, but that is more the exception than the rule from what I can tell.
The CG doesn't allocate any money to train CG Auxies to do augmentation at all, which is the more appropriate comparison.
For most jobs where CAP augmentation would be appropriate on-the-job training should be sufficient.
Quote from: RiverAux on February 09, 2007, 08:52:55 PM
I think you're really overestimating the importance of funding for an augmentation program. Most SDFs get less state funding than do many CAP Wings. Yes, there are some situations where SDF members get paid to do the job, but that is more the exception than the rule from what I can tell.
The CG doesn't allocate any money to train CG Auxies to do augmentation at all, which is the more appropriate comparison.
For most jobs where CAP augmentation would be appropriate on-the-job training should be sufficient.
USCG pays for USCG Aux personnel to go to A schools and also incorporates training of Auxiliarists into the man hours of their active duty/reserve personnel. In that sense they absolutely do pay for it. Man hours are the most rudimentary expenditure the military has and they are absolutely accounted for.
As far as SDFs are concerned, the SDFs are run by the same department that runs the Air and Army national guards and all SDF expenses come from this department, at least they do in NY. The only thing the guardsman doesn't get paid for is his/her time. All basic equipment and uniforms are issued by the State.
Quote from: afgeo4 on February 09, 2007, 08:35:18 PM
I think the issue will always come down to funding. Making sure that the members we put on the lines are properly taken care of, properly fed, uniformed, trained, etc. All of that takes money. Currently, the SDFs training is paid by the State's military department which also pays for the National Guard. Since the money is allocated anyway, it makes little difference who gets paid. The state can choose to pay a national guardsman to do the job or they can just fund the training for the state guardsman. Either way, they're the state's military. Remember, the state pays for the SDF member's training, food, uniform, and if activated, the member receives pay and allowances. In NY Guard, SAD pays $100 per day to enlisted men, regardless of paygrade.
Careful now, that varies widely from state to state. The overwhelming majority of SDFs do NOT get paid for training, regular drill, uniforms, any of that stuff. They are volunteers just like CAP. Now most DO get paid a SAD rate when called up for an emergency, and we'd like to get something similar for CAP, but that's not real likely. On the other hand some states don't give the SAD rate or job protection to their official SDF, making then the same as CAP.
QuoteNow, if you say "hey, that's where we can save you money!", remember, the state cannot make us responsible for things they do not pay for. So, our training, if not provided by the state or the federal government, is just for kicks. They cannot hold us responsible for being properly trained if they don't provide or fund the training. Same for uniforms.
The federal govt does pay millions a year of CAP training, it may not go in your pocket as salary, and it may not be distributed fairly, but they do provide for our training. A lot of states also provide financial support for CAP.
QuoteNow, if you're a security forces SrA (for example) and a CAP officer shows up for his watch and he's wearing a pair of slacks and a polo because no one issued him/her a uniform and he doesn't know how to check ID's because no one paid to train him/her, what use is it to the Airman? It just takes his attention away from his job. Also, what image of CAP does it reflect?
Agreed absolutely. I don't know how CGAux does theirs & I'm not in an SDF though I know a lot of CAP members that are. In Texas though, to do augmentation thru the SDF you have to apply for an open position. In order to get the job you're going to have to have the right uniforms & a couple years experience in the SDF just as a prereq. Then they're going to eval if you are going to work out in that role & if so they'll get you in the remedial correspondence training mentored by someone on the SDF side that's done that job in the military. You have to meet any military requirements to hold that job & you have to do it at your or the SDFs expense (minus the real cost of courses offered to you for free from places like AFIADL). So you don't step onto the line till you're as qualified as anyone else coming out of tech school, and in fact are generally awarded the badge & AFSC that go with it.
QuoteIf we want our forces to be professionally trained to do a job, we're going to have to find a way to fund that. The way to do that is to petition the Air Force to create such a program and then petition the Congress for the appropriate funds. Will it happen? Not while there's a war going on. The Army and USMC need waaaaay too much money for someone to appropriate additional funding to the Air Force. Or worse, the Congress may love the idea and issue funding for it... along with appropriate downsizing of the force for USAF to account for the new help.
Yep. I think Congress would buy it based on the decades old examples by CGAux & SDFs, I think some laws would be changed on CAP (chiefly job protection, but maybe also that we'd be bound by UCMJ when on AFAM including augmenting, and some kind of per diem along the lines of SAD pay under certain conditions - like deployed over 48 hrs). I think Congress would also take into account the scale of those programs when defining expectations for what we could do. And at the end of the day I think they'd fund it (it'd cost a lot less that you're thinking), and would indeed cut AF back a touch more to account for the extra help.. redirecting that money into war fighting efforts, which is part of what CAP is all about.
You're assuming they'll cut from a specific operational budget and I'm assuming they'll cut from the overall USAF budget handed to the SECAF. I think they money would get redirected to the Army/USMC and I think that's the number 1 fear of the Air Force at this time. They are already made to cut their forces and replace them with civillians and although the very top brass talks about that enthusiastically, it really isn't their position (commanders don't like commanding civillians).
No, I agree with you. It would be off the top.
Understand on this now that you have to sell it to AF FIRST, and THEN sell it to Congress. That means AF has to buy it as a means to maintain capability under the current cuts, and sell it to Congress that way. Initially it would be a test case, then small scale. On the whole I think you're looking at a limited savings that offsets the costs but offers that additional surge capability. There's a theoretical point out in the future where it could be grown to a point of allowing the AF to cut further & turn that money to war fioghters. I don't know how realistic that goal is, but it'll sell as a down the road objective.
Actual costs... would be very low. I believe we can (on paper) still attend AF training in open slots w/ facility commander approval. I'll have to look around & see if that's still on the books, but it used to be. We can also take all the correspondence stuff we want, and either have or can recruit AFSC qual'd retirees/res/guard as CAP memebrs to train/mentor our people. There will be a few manhours involved & the program can be administered by cAP volunteers under AF orders, but probably needs a couple staff members to help administer the red tape. I think it can work for quite low costs.
Regarding CG Aux going to CG schools. That is almost entirely for training Aux people to do Aux tasks. It has nothing at all to do with the vast majority of augmentation roles the CG Aux plays. There are a few exceptions to this general rule, but they aren't common.
Yes, such training takes some time (which obviously has value), but there isn't any budget anywhere that allocates money to train CG Auxies for augmentation roles (again, with a few exceptions).
Quote from: afgeo4 on February 09, 2007, 07:49:10 PM
I'm glad you all got a chuckle out of CAP members performing KP, but...
1. If there is a shortage of service squadron personnel and airment aren't getting properly fed, how thankful do you think those airmen and the base staff including the CC would be if we did the job?
2. Do you guys have your noses stuck at 30,000 ft? What? Real KP duty is far too beneath you?
3. Cadets can do many tasks of KP.
4. This has been done at 174th Fighter Wing, NYANG and with great success and the base was VERY thankful and in fact, they were the ones to appoach us for help, not the other way around. Their budget was slashed and they could not sustain enough service personnel for non-UTA weekends even though they were in high tempo flight ops training at the time.
Now, the question here was what is it that CAP could do to boost the Air Force's operational abilities, not what it is that CAP could do to boost its members egos.
I'm happy that so many of you like to pretend you're Generals and Air Force Chiefs of Staff, but you're not. You're simply Auxiliarists. We are all less qualified to do the jobs than professional Airmen. Otherwise, someone would pay you to do those jobs already. So, drop your attitudes and look for ways we can help the real Air Force with real tasks that they really need.
P.S. Weather briefings are not mission briefings. The SrA that did that weather briefing was a weather airman. Unless you're a professional weather forecaster, please don't pretend you can do the briefing. The actual mission briefings are usually done by the flight leader and the information is usually on the mission parameters, not atmospheric conditions. That's what weather briefings are for. There are also intel briefings. We can't do that either.
"Mission first, people always!"
George:
I do not have my nose stuck at 30,000 feet. But yes, KP is beneath my current station in life. I went to Officer Candidate School, the Officer Basic Course, the Officer Advanced Course, the Physical Security Inspector Course, the Public Affairs Officer Course, all in the Army. In CAP I've been through SLS and CLC, and the National Inspector General College. I have commanded an Army Reserve company, a CAP Squadron, and a National Guard battalion.
I don't do KP anymore. I did it back in the 1960's when I was a junior enlisted guy. When the President gave me a document saying that he had "Special trust and confidence" in my "Patriotism, valor, fidelity, and abilities," I sort of considered it inappropriate to perform menial tasks. I don't think the President would like seeing one of his officers scraping off trays, except for Christmas dinner, when officers traditionally serve the troops the holiday meal.
"We are all less qualified than 'professional airmen?'" Speak only for yourself on that one.
I'll let some of the other fellows offer their opinions on the issue of weather briefings, but I am of the opinion that any pilot should be capable of interpreting weather data from the reporting products that are available. Every pilot is his own weather forecaster. The operations briefing also, by its nature, includes airspace data that is not strictly weather-related, but which still should be familiar to any pilot.
I think the rule should be that any CAP member performing augmentation duties should have to meet the exact same standards of job performance as the Air Force person who normally does it. That is the way the CG treats the CG Aux.
So, if a CAP member has the necessary skills and is able to complete whatever training tasks would be asked of an AF weather briefer, or any other job, then if the AF needs them, they should use them in that position.
Quote from: RiverAux on February 10, 2007, 02:09:33 AM
I think the rule should be that any CAP member performing augmentation duties should have to meet the exact same standards of job performance as the Air Force person who normally does it. That is the way the CG treats the CG Aux.
So, if a CAP member has the necessary skills and is able to complete whatever training tasks would be asked of an AF weather briefer, or any other job, then if the AF needs them, they should use them in that position.
That's not exactly how CG does it. They don't go to a several month long tech school to be basically qual'd for the job. The way I understand it they do the individual system programs & continueing eduation programs along with OJT to be equiv qualified to CG standards. SDFs are basically the same, but they apply for specific jobs then do any extra training after they've been selected & approved by the parent service.
Okay found what I was looking for... AFI 10-2701:
Quote
3.18.1. Space Available Training Opportunities. All CAP members may, at their own expense, attend training programs offered at DoD Installations. FTCA/FECA does not extend to this activity. Such training will be offered for CAP personnel on a space available basis at no additional cost to the Government. CAP-USAF/CC and the training activity commander must approve the request prior to CAP participation. Examples of such programs include aerospace physiological training in accordance with AFI 11-401, Aviation Management, CISM training, etc..
3.18.2. Other Training Activities. Air Force Installations and units are authorized to provide support to CAP senior member training activities and are encouraged to provide such support whenever possible. Such support includes providing personnel as instructors for leadership, aerospace, and operational courses and workshops, providing tours of Installations and units, briefings on Installation and unit mission and capabilities, and instruction in Air Force roles and missions and the role of CAP as an auxiliary of the Air Force. The Air Force Institute for Advanced Distributed Learning (AFIADL) may provide administrative support to CAP members enrolled in both Air Force and CAP Professional Military Education (PME).
http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/10/afi10-2701/afi10-2701.pdf (http://www.e-publishing.af.mil/pubfiles/af/10/afi10-2701/afi10-2701.pdf)
Now yes I think you could ask for & get a very low funding number to aid in travel, per diem, & lodging while attending such training, and a national coordinatiuon program to identify AF slots that need augmentation help, CAP members (or people we can recruit) who can apply for & be accepted to the augmentation program in general & then matched up with avail training slots & programs, with job protections. Yeah that all sounds quite reasonable.
QuoteThat's not exactly how CG does it. They don't go to a several month long tech school to be basically qual'd for the job.
If the job requires a 2-month tech school most likely a CG Auxie will not be augmenting in that position. What they do is if the cutter needs an in-port watchstander, the CG Auxie has to complete the same tasks to get qualified in that position as any other Coastie would when they reported to the ship. Same goes for radio duty, etc. Basically the Auxie has to meet the same standards without the advantages that the Coasties will have had in having some background training.
Regarding SDFs you are confusing several different approaches to augmentation. There are some SDF people that basically get hired for jobs that could also have gone to NG members. Those are more like what you described in regards to applying for a job. That is one thing. CA seems to be the only place where this is actually much of an option, and even there you hear complaints that they include CA SMR in the potential applicant pool just for show.
Other SDF augmentation jobs are more like what we're talking about with CAP. Ask what the NG needs and find people to do it with OJT.
Ohio also offers sate technician jobs to members of its SDF, but most of them are military retirees. The did their 20+ with the Guard, and went over to the SDF so that they could continue their full-time job.
I don't know, but I bet that position does require a rated officer, and comm watch requires comm tech school, just as almost all jobs in the military require an MOS/AFSC. What (I think) CGAux does is the CE & systems credits to qualify on the equipment & responsibilities involved in the position, not the underlying tech school. What SDFs do is pretty similiar, except they can earn an AFSC/MOS thru that process. I believe both have the ability to actually attend the tech schools if space is avail & the parent service needs them to, but I imagne it's pretty rare. Honestly a lot of people in this route would be retired service members that are already certified on the system & may or may not need a refresher course to be considered current. There's a lot of stuff below the AFSC level that's extra duty, & we could pick up a lot of that kinda thing. That's more the kind of thing you're talking about that CGAux does, that would tend to be populated w/ non-prior-service folks.
Far as the applications, all SDFs that do augmentation do that. You don't just walk across teh hall to the Guard unit CC & say put me in coach. The SDF unit is partnered with a guard unit. The ADF unit then has job slots that are there to augment in guard unit. You then apply for that staff/job slot & have to be accepted, there is no pay. It was probably you AFSC/MOS in the military before you joined the SDF & you may or may not need a refresher. For people that were not in the military, it might be half a dozen out of the 160 AF career fields that you MIGHT be able to qualify, then there's probably a dozen more you can qualify for if you do a bunch of training & are certified in the same job as a civilian (A&P on 737s for instance). And of course there's the professionally degreed officers that would be rendering non-military assitance or would have to take a bunch of training to render direct military assistance.
Nope, radio watchstander is probably by far the most common augmentation program undertaken by CG Auxies. There are quite a few places that when you call the CG, you're talking to a CG Auxie. There is one CG Aux comm course we make them take, but the rest is based on the same tasks the CG members have to do. Heck, in some stations the Auxies have been there so long they're the ones training the new Coasties on the systems. Yes, there are Auxies doing in-port watchstander jobs on cutters who got qualified as I described them (I've talked with them).
Other CG Auxies are doing the pick-up tasks that aren't a specific job, but need to be done (for example, doing regular parts inventory at the aviation unit). This would be the same sort of odd tasks that CAP members might be assigned to do as augmentation.
I do sick bay work. Im already an EMT, and didnt have to go to corpsman school.
The CG accepts what you have and fills in with OJT.
I feel any CAP with at least a Senior Rating in a related field (Personnel/Admin/HSO etc) could learn through OJT. It would not need be a case of attending tech school. - IF thats a worry, take the AFIADL course in that field first.
So getting back to the list...
What jobs does EVERYONE agree that CAP could do with no Tech School training?
George:
CAP can do a lot of things. Some of our members have been through either the Air Force tech school or a similar school in another branch. Our members would need a short period of OJT or familiarization with the particular base mission, but other than that, just about any job would be open to them.
For the cadets and officers who have never been trained in anything, there are still a few jobs that they could do, such as movement control of troops during deployment, making copies of unclassified material, etc.
The way I see an augmentation program working is this:
1. We assign an "Augmentation Coordinator" to a base, probably working somewhere in or near the personnel office.
2. The AC develops and publishes a standard application/resume format to CAP members.
3. Members who want to volunteer for the augmentation program submit a resume packet IAW the published guidance. The packet would include a statement of availability.
4. The AC determines where the member could best be utilized based upon the member's training and experience, and sends the packet to the officer in charge of the section where the AC proposes the member be assigned. The officer, at his option, can interview the CAP member, and schedule training as appropriate.
5. The AC will maintain records of the CAP members' participation for statistical and reporting purposes.
6. In the event the base requires additional assistance with an event, the AC will, depending on the nature and the scope of the event:
a. Call up selected volunteers from the folks who have submitted packets, and task/request their help with the special requirement.
b. Call the area unit commanders and request them to provide larger numbers of volunteers for the special requirement.
We're not waiting for a National-level program to get started here in FL. We will be providing tour escorts by April at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. We are presently training a cadre of officers and cadets to do this.
Does anything in current CAP/USAF regs prevent us from implementing this on individual base/wing/unit level? Can we just go to our CAP-USAF liaisons with this idea?
Nothing in the current regulations prohibit this program. There has been talk of a National program of augmentation, supported by the CAP computerized data base, but that data base is, in my opinion, not up to the task.
We're not waiting. One of our captains discovered a need for aumentation that the USAF had locally, and took steps to put us in. In fact, I'm going there tomorrow to finish my training.
Starting in with a recrutier again. Did a bunch with theri Sq years back, so have a model to build on. Would like to push on to a higher level though & of course the discussion here involves the next step beyond this.
There is nothing to prohibit it, but it does currently sit in a sort of gray area. For example, if CAP augmentation is to be considered an AFAM, which it logically should be, we have no real specific procedures to approve them as such now since AF and CAP regulations do not really deal with this sort of activity. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that it could be administratively confusing.
Just to throw an example out there regarding our only real nation-wide augmentation program (Chaplains), the AF thought it necessary to specifically discuss Chaplain augmentation procedures in AFPD-10-2701. To me this implies that they might also want such specific language for other ongoing augmentation.
There are proceedures in place for low level cross-support. The AF doesn't need permission to provide support to CAP or vice versa. The reg spells that out. Obviously though we're talking about consolidating these efforts & stepping up to the next level. At some point that's going alter regs & the SOW to accomodate, as well it should.
QuoteThere are proceedures in place for low level cross-support.
If this was the case, they wouldn't have thought it necessary to specifically spell out procedures for using CAP Chaplains.
QuoteThe AF doesn't need permission to provide support to CAP or vice versa.
Wasn't talking about permission to support, I'm talking about the regulatory framework for these missions. Are they being done as AFAMs or CAP missions? If they're AFAM missions, they golly-well gee have to follow the specific guidelines in the AF reg I cited for requesting them. And as I pointed out these are geared for flight missions and not augmentation missions and it is not clear to me exactly how I can get AFAM status for doing real augmentation work for the AF.
So, if it is going to be an AFAM there will be a series of vaguely defined hoops to jump through. Now, if it is to be done as a CAP mission, though not really spelled out in the regs, I'm sure it could be approved on the CAP side. Though as I pointed out earlier in this, or another thread, the AF still seems to be required to get some approvals. I understand that apparently people are doing it without going through that process. No skin off my nose or their's until something goes wrong.
Because, as is talked about all the time, the AF sees CAP as a big ball of potential liability. You're darn skippy they're going to care if a CAP member manages to get seriously injured or killed (or does it to someone else) while augmenting. That is when we will see how big a deal getting the proper approvals to do the mission in the first place is (on both sides of the house).
I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be done, just that I favor altering the regs (AF & CAP) to provide for very easy approval of augmentation missions as AFAMs before we get into it on a large scale. If we do a lot of semi-official augmenting we run a risk, albeit slight, of something happening which brings up these issues and sinks the program before it starts.
you don't need written permission to wipe your butt. Regs don't work like that, least of all this one. 10-2701 defines a broad range of ways in which the AF is authorized to support CAP w/o need of a mission number or anyone's permission, and vice versa. Suggestions are made but not limited to. The only time a formal request would be made would be for operational support.
I think the regs need to address it - at least briefly- if for no other reason the to assure we have the injury protections and the like (maybe job security) maybe reimbursement for a room if we stay overnight, even to verify that we have done the OPSEC before we go filling through personnel records etc. (BTW would the AF really accept the OPSEC slideshow as valid or would we need to get a secret clearance? - on a case-by-case basis )
I'm not saying the AF should hand out a clearance to everyone.
I'm glad we pared down the categories to technical and operational tasks.
There is a segment of our membership that did KP and other "mundane" tasks for King & Country in their former lives, and might not be inclined to turn back the clock to when they were E-1s, and take time away from family and work to do it.
Something like having a CAP member assist at AFRCC has merit (If you've actually ever seen it, its not the NORAD-like ops center some might envision, nor are there legions of personnel manning it.)
But again, has anyone in USAF actually requested this type of support??
Until that happens, all this rhetoric is for naught....
Quote from: O-Rex on February 11, 2007, 02:58:17 PM
I'm glad we pared down the categories to technical and operational tasks.
There is a segment of our membership that did KP and other "mundane" tasks for King & Country in their former lives, and might not be inclined to turn back the clock to when they were E-1s, and take time away from family and work to do it.
Something like having a CAP member assist at AFRCC has merit (If you've actually ever seen it, its not the NORAD-like ops center some might envision, nor are there legions of personnel manning it.)
But again, has anyone in USAF actually requested this type of support??
Until that happens, all this rhetoric is for naught....
To answer your question in a word: NO The AF hasn't asked for this type of support. For mainly two reasons;
1) they dont know we are willing to do things like this
2) They might not think alot of us COULD
Thus why several: like Mr. K here have taken it upon themselves to do things like this.
And guess what: the AF loved the idea, reread his posts...they are even letting some cadets in on the project. CAP wins in that they get to do something for the AF. And the AF wins in that they get to resume tours that had previously fallen along the wayside.
Sarcasm, and Nay-saying aside, I do recall paying a courtesy call on the CO of the Mil installation where my squadron met when I was the CC: he started the meeting with "What can we do for CAP today?"
I replied with "Nothing: we are very happy and appreciative of the facilities you have povided-what can we do for you??"
The guy nearly fell out of his chair. In the nearly 20 years that the squadron was a tenant, nobody ever reached out in that manner. They never took us up on the offer, but we never had a problem getting on/off base, and conducting training and actual SAR events from there was never a problem.
The intent of this post is noble, but there's our ideal of what CAP and its members should be, then there's reality: I also recall CAP getting a booth at our local county fair, 9 days total, 12 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 18 hours on the weekends-that was a tall order. The event management got peeved because we couldn't support it: folks no-showed, and unsupervised cadets abandoned the booth when their friends came by. The next year, I tried to get a booth at the fair: when I said who I was with, the fair administrator actually groaned "not you guys again. . "
I'd hate for us to do that with USAF: I almost think they half-expect it.
This is something we should wait to be asked for, or have a real good plan of execution if we were to present it. By "we" I mean CAPNHQ, it would not recommend freelancing this kind of thing on local levels without a blessing by the wing cc.
Quote from: O-Rex on February 11, 2007, 08:28:36 PM
Sarcasm, and Nay-saying aside, I do recall paying a courtesy call on the CO of the Mil installation where my squadron met when I was the CC: he started the meeting with "What can we do for CAP today?"
I replied with "Nothing: we are very happy and appreciative of the facilities you have povided-what can we do for you??"
The guy nearly fell out of his chair. In the nearly 20 years that the squadron was a tenant, nobody ever reached out in that manner. They never took us up on the offer, but we never had a problem getting on/off base, and conducting training and actual SAR events from there was never a problem.
That's funny. I always enjoy that moment. I did that with a recruiter just last week. When I told him we could stuff envelopes & I thought he'd pass out. He was pretty amazed at all the things CAP does as well & interested in getting more involved. We're moving on to develop that as we go.
QuoteThe intent of this post is noble, but there's our ideal of what CAP and its members should be, then there's reality: I also recall CAP getting a booth at our local county fair, 9 days total, 12 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 18 hours on the weekends-that was a tall order. The event management got peeved because we couldn't support it: folks no-showed, and unsupervised cadets abandoned the booth when their friends came by. The next year, I tried to get a booth at the fair: when I said who I was with, the fair administrator actually groaned "not you guys again. . "
I'd hate for us to do that with USAF: I almost think they half-expect it.
This is something we should wait to be asked for, or have a real good plan of execution if we were to present it. By "we" I mean CAPNHQ, it would not recommend freelancing this kind of thing on local levels without a blessing by the wing cc.
CGAux does this NOW, SDFs do this NOW, and both VERY effectively. I don't think it's all that big a deal, just no one has ever developed the infrastructure to support it on a very large scale. That's what we're talking about here. You can already do loads with your base, area recruiters, reserve units, etc. Hell, help out the Army/Navy/Marines if you don't have any AF close by, that's fine.
I think the key to your concern though is just not biting off more than we can chew. What SDFs do is they're paired with a guard unit & they have slots devoted to augmentation. You as a member apply for one of those staff slots & are selected or not. If they don't have anyone to fill it then they go targeted recruiting. Neither of these are very large programs & I wouldn't expect ours to be either. The point is to create a mechanism & start the flow of support. It's going to start small & build, just like anything else, but it can work.
Far as the work itself, you check with your coordinator, they have a list for the next month of when they expect to need help, you scedule times you can work & then you need to make it or find a replacement from within the program, or else you're going to be rapidly out of the program, just like everything else. You also list your additional availability for the next month, so if something comes up the AF can look at that database, call you up & see if you could make it out. It's not that complicated, hell it's not so unlike things we do now for ES, HLS, CD, etc.
Here's an idea: start the base augmentation program at Air National Guard bases first. They would be a lot easier to augment (I would think) than Air Force bases, and the Air National Guard is closer to CAP than Active Duty AF.
By augmenting the air guard, CAP would also become more like the state defense forces in that it would be performing tasks for the national guard that are needed. This makes sense, because CAP is more like a state defense force than part of the Air Force Total Force structure.
ANG already has SDFs at least in some places, ours os very advanced with lots of members wearing both hats. Hell my Sate Director is the State Air Guard Wing Commander. There are lessons to be taken from SDFs that can be applied at the federal level where they don't have that kind of help. Try partnering with a reserve unit to start.
Quote from: DNall on February 11, 2007, 11:17:23 PM
ANG already has SDFs at least in some places, ours os very advanced with lots of members wearing both hats. Hell my Sate Director is the State Air Guard Wing Commander.
Yes, but SDF's are not everywhere. CAP is, however (at least in the U.S. and Puerto Rico). That's one advantage to CAP augmenting the Air National Guard and their bases - everywhere there's an ANG base, there's some CAP unit to augment it.
Quote from: DNall on February 11, 2007, 11:17:23 PMThere are lessons to be taken from SDFs that can be applied at the federal level where they don't have that kind of help. Try partnering with a reserve unit to start.
I agree, but I still think augmenting ANG bases is a better starting point.
There is
a lot CAP can learn from SDF's (especially the Air SDF's), and SDF's do way more for the National Guard than CAP. But unfortunately, SDF's are not in every state. CAP is, including D.C. and Puerto Rico.
I completed my training today.
There was a CAP captain and me as tour guides, the captain had already completed his training (The program was HIS idea.) He was to evaluate my tour-guiding skills. We have a written training and orientation program that can take from 1 to 3 months to complete.
We had two regular NASA tours, and one "Special" tour of VIP's from ITT Defense Operations, that came as guests of the Air Force. We had a total of 141 persons through the museum today.
The neatest part... To the ITT Defense executives, to the tourists from the UK, to the tourists from the Yankee states, CAP from now on IS the US Air Force. We gave a tour, talked about the early days of the space program, showed them the space monkey's capsule, and generally kept their interest for about 45 minutes or so before letting them roam the "Rocket Garden." The guys in the flight suits WERE the Air Force, even though we introduced ourselves as the "US Air Force Auxiliary."
The little kids from the UK all wanted their pictures taken with us. Just like I was Posh Spice or something.
Note to the uniform nazis: We are wearing flight suits at the request of the Air Force. That is the uniform of the day for aircrew and missile qualified personnel, and that is the uniform worn by the Air Force tour escorts when they are available.
We will start doing this in greater numbers come April, especially now that there are TWO of us qualified to train other CAP folks.
I'll keep you guys posted on this.
The reason that CG Aux members and the CG can work together so easily on a local level so that CG Auxies can augment to fill in what the unit needs is because CG regs are set up to allow them to do so. Both organizations are much less "stovepiped" than CAP is in regards to AF relations which makes some sense given the fact that there aren't a whole lot of AFBs out there where such opportunities might exist. So, we need a little more formalized system, such as one presented earlier, for making these opportunities available.
Personally, I would be in favor of also using CAP to augment Air NG units though that might also be tricky in regards to status of the mission since they would most likely be in state status if CAP were augmenting them and the state would need to be assuming all the responsibilities associated with using CAP for a state mission or it would be done solely as a CAP mission with associated less protections.
Quote from: RiverAux on February 12, 2007, 02:57:16 AM
Both organizations are much less "stovepiped" than CAP is in regards to AF relations which makes some sense given the fact that there aren't a whole lot of AFBs out there where such opportunities might exist.
True. But I'm sure there are a lot of Air National Guard bases where the opportunity for CAP to augment personnel exists. The problem is, the stovepipe atmosphere between CAP and the AF still exists, making it hard to execute such a program.
Any ideas as to how to fix this?
Quote from: RiverAux on February 12, 2007, 02:57:16 AMPersonally, I would be in favor of also using CAP to augment Air NG units though that might also be tricky in regards to status of the mission since they would most likely be in state status if CAP were augmenting them and the state would need to be assuming all the responsibilities associated with using CAP for a state mission or it would be done solely as a CAP mission with associated less protections.
Good point. I'm all for CAP augmenting Air NG units too, but I agree this would be difficult. I think having the state assuming all the responsibilities associated with using CAP for a state mission would be the ideal situation, but if this were to happen tomorrow, it would be done solely as a CAP mission with associated less protections.
This is a great idea, but it's also very expensive. Where would the money come from?
Reserve units are pertty widespread. Recruiters even moreso. Then there's some stuff that can be done by telecommute. Of course the heavy lifting would be near AFBs. Otherwise there are good things to develop in conjuction w/ AFA.
Quote from: Guardrail on February 12, 2007, 03:50:34 AMThis is a great idea, but it's also very expensive. Where would the money come from?
I think the point of the augmentation is that there isn't any money (or at least, very little money) needed. Folks volunteer.
Quote from: O-Rex on February 11, 2007, 08:28:36 PMThe intent of this post is noble, but there's our ideal of what CAP and its members should be, then there's reality: I also recall CAP getting a booth at our local county fair, 9 days total, 12 hours a day, 5 days a week, and 18 hours on the weekends-that was a tall order. The event management got peeved because we couldn't support it: folks no-showed, and unsupervised cadets abandoned the booth when their friends came by. The next year, I tried to get a booth at the fair: when I said who I was with, the fair administrator actually groaned "not you guys again. . "
I'd hate for us to do that with USAF: I almost think they half-expect it.
Yup, this gets back the whole SUSTAIN vs. SURGE thing. CAP just isn't very good at sustained, long term operations. As an you found out, long term can be as short as 2 weeks.
I think we can susain at low levels indefinitely. We can have a CAP volunteer agree to work like 2-4 days per month as his or her volunteer assignment. It could actually be in lieu of attendance at meetings, as long as there was some kind of CAP contact and supervision.
Maybe the commander could stop in for a visit from time to time, or establish e-mail contact to make sure the member is still alive.
If you wanted a higher level of support, sustainability would be a big problem. There is only a limited number of hours that CAP members have available to volunteer.
No full-time postions wuld be filled, no even part-time positions would be filled. A couple Saturdays a month is the most your talking about & the norm for the people involved int he program will be closer to four or fewer hours per month. No attempt is being made to sustain in any position. Oh I grant you can put some retired tour guides up & cover a museum or some such pretty well, that's how those things are done now for the most part. But don't misunderstand that we're talking about taking away job, we aren't. The level we're talking about falls more into the category of reducing overtime, making more efficient use of time, and taking some pressure off resources which may go as far as saving a reservist from coming up for a few days here and there. That's the limit though.
Ok, after listening to the conversations here is my list, no particular order, this is just how they came to me after contemplation.
ALSO, Im listing who might be qualified/ interested in doing these tasks
1 Personnel / Admin Flight Assistance - Personnel Officers, Admin Officers, Pro Dev. Officers and TSOs, members who are HR in the "real world"
2 Inventory and other Assistance (parts delivery service) with Supply or Logistics Units - Logistics and Supply Officers
3 Assistance with FlightLINE tasks: briefings, chart markups, light admin etc ... ELT DEACTIVATIONS?! - Pilots, Aircrew, Safety
4 Communications Support- IT Support to Comm units, Internet Security Teams, Base Engineers, Tower Comms? - Comm Officers, IT folks
5 On Base Guide/ Taxi Service to include taking folks to / from train station/ etc. - Anyone
6 Support for Base Security Forces - non LE, to include working at the Pass Office, checking IDs etc... - anyone
7 Support to Base Legal Office - IG and JA types, degree'd lawyers, members with parlegal experience
8 Medical Support - CAP MDs Nurses EMTs PAs etc...
9 Base Tours / Museum Support ; anyone, Historians, PAOs etc
10 Base Public Affairs Office Support - POAs, ICs
11 Chapel Support - Chaplains etc.
12 AF Inn Desk / Commisary Work- not scullery- desk work at the gym etc... -- Anyone
13 Support for Base Engineers / Grounds Dept assist with plans, paperwork, groundskeeping, admin/paperwork etc. - folks with Engineering degrees/ plumbing/electrical certifications etc
Let me know what you think, ALSO, I asked this earlier but didnt see any replies; would we need something other then "OPSEC" to get this stuff done? -- like with comm support. ??
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on February 14, 2007, 03:38:14 PM
Ok, after listening to the conversations here is my list, no particular order, this is just how they came to me after contemplation.
ALSO, Im listing who might be qualified/ interested in doing these tasks
1 Personnel / Admin Flight Assistance - Personnel Officers, Admin Officers, Pro Dev. Officers and TSOs, members who are HR in the "real world"
2 Inventory and other Assistance (parts delivery service) with Supply or Logistics Units - Logistics and Supply Officers)
3 Assistance with FlightLINE tasks: briefings, chart markups, light admin etc ... ELT DEACTIVATIONS?! - Pilots, Aircrew, Safety
4 Communications Support- IT Support to Comm units, Internet Security Teams, Base Engineers, Tower Comms? - Comm Officers, IT folks
5 On Base Guide/ Taxi Service to include taking folks to / from train station/ etc. - Anyone
6 Support for Base Security Forces - non LE, to include working at the Pass Office, checking IDs etc... - anyone
7 Support to Base Legal Office - IG and JA types, degree'd lawyers, members with parlegal experience
8 Medical Support - CAP MDs Nurses EMTs PAs etc...
9 Base Tours / Museum Support ; anyone, Historians, PAOs etc
10 Base Public Affairs Office Support - POAs, ICs
11 Chapel Support - Chaplains etc.
12 AF Inn Desk / Commisary Work- not scullery- desk work at the gym etc... -- Anyone
13 Support for Base Engineers / Grounds Dept assist with plans, paperwork, groundskeeping, admin/paperwork etc. - folks with Engineering degrees/ plumbing/electrical certifications etc
Let me know what you think, ALSO, I asked this earlier but didnt see any replies; would we need something other then "OPSEC" to get this stuff done? -- like with comm support. ??
I think #1 is a stretch - USAF HR is radically different from HR in the commercial sector - the skill isn't easily transferable. Although low level stuff (collate and staple) is possible, albeit not much fun.
Ref #3, I doubt they'd let us brief flight crews. I could be wrong, but they're awfully sensitive about flight ops, and would be loath to turn it over to a part time volunteer.
#4 would also be a stretch, as networks are incredibly sensitive areas right now. Given the current levels of INFOCON, they are awfully picky about who plays with the electrons.
A lot of your remaining suggestions assume folks with outside quals - (Chaplain, Lawyer, Construction Licenses, Health professionals). That would be one part of the program - identifying folks that have these talents and working ways to use them.
The other stuff (ID Card checking, inventory, tour guide, PAO, taxi driver) would be where we could do the most good - since we have a LOT more members qualified to assist.
Now, the hard part - getting folks to committ to it.
And here's the rub - most folks want their volunteer work to provide some level of "fun." Sure, they want to work hard, but if it's truly a chore, it's hard to get lots of folks to do it. How can we make things like inventory assistance and ID card checking interesting enough to our members in order to get lots of them to volunteer to do it?
Speaking for myself: Id do it because Id get to assist the Air Force FINALLY.
- In my 5 years of CAP Ground Team Membership I haven't done a single mission be it a UDF ELT search or ...anything.
As for other reasons: these are "real " AF jobs, would be done on base etc (something some folks would jump at) ... It would make us more visible to the AF and hopefully increase our value and image. It might lead to the AF doing more for us - letting Seniors have O-Club privileges maybe? - I don't live near a base so this is kind of a non-factor for me personally.
- I personally live over 2 hours from the nearest AFB, but still, I would be more then willing to drive to Scott or to a ANG base to do several days a month or whatever. - lol, I drive the same distance for the CG-aux anyway- St Louis or Peoria. And thats where IL's Air Force presence is.
Call me weird, but ID checking/at the gate is interesting enough for me, you dont really need to add any extra bells and whistles.
Quote from: Dragoon on February 14, 2007, 07:19:42 PM
Now, the hard part - getting folks to committ to it.
And here's the rub - most folks want their volunteer work to provide some level of "fun." Sure, they want to work hard, but if it's truly a chore, it's hard to get lots of folks to do it. How can we make things like inventory assistance and ID card checking interesting enough to our members in order to get lots of them to volunteer to do it?
People like the idea of service to and with the military. Especially if they let you do it in uniform then there is a sense of belonging & contribution to something bigger, even if your part isn't exciting. I don't think you can get people scrubbing toilets that way, but filing paperwork sure.
Far as HR... We're not really talking about personnel flight stuff. That gets into pay system issues I don'tt hink they'll wabt us playiing with. Hwever, they have cops, mechanics, etc literally pulled out of the line & assigned that extra duty for their unit. They don't go to school for that, they just figure it out. On the officer level there's whole lot of that extra duty outside your training kinda thing that we can provide backup on.
We aren't going to be the ones making these decisions though. It's not even useful for us to make suggestions. They know whwew they're willing to use us. The thing is that same convesration a couple people have decribed... in which the AF asks you how they can help, & you tell them you're doing okay for now but what can you do for them, and shock ensures. If they knew we were willing to assist on a wide scale & believed in our people, then they'd be jumping all over this. I think the way to proceed is pretty clear.
Quote from: DNall on February 15, 2007, 05:58:47 PM
Quote from: Dragoon on February 14, 2007, 07:19:42 PM
Now, the hard part - getting folks to committ to it.
And here's the rub - most folks want their volunteer work to provide some level of "fun." Sure, they want to work hard, but if it's truly a chore, it's hard to get lots of folks to do it. How can we make things like inventory assistance and ID card checking interesting enough to our members in order to get lots of them to volunteer to do it?
People like the idea of service to and with the military. Especially if they let you do it in uniform then there is a sense of belonging & contribution to something bigger, even if your part isn't exciting.
My fear is that people will like the IDEA, but not the REALITY. They'll commit to doing some boring job to support the base, and then when the initial thrill wears off they'll stop doing it. And then CAP looks bad.
You'd be amazed how many people train up for ELT hunting and then start saying "no" after their first couple of alerts. The IDEA of getting up at 2 am to chase an ELT was cool, but the REALITY wasn't cool enough.
Quote from: DNall on February 15, 2007, 05:58:47 PM
Far as HR... We're not really talking about personnel flight stuff. That gets into pay system issues I don'tt hink they'll wabt us playiing with. Hwever, they have cops, mechanics, etc literally pulled out of the line & assigned that extra duty for their unit. They don't go to school for that, they just figure it out. On the officer level there's whole lot of that extra duty outside your training kinda thing that we can provide backup on.
Having actually run a military personnel action center, and having had a few "OJT" guys (soldiers detailed to my section who weren't clerks), I can speak from some experience on this one.
Those guys pulled out of the line have a more than passable knowledge of how military personnel works, since they are serviced by that system every day. Our CAP folks wouldn't have that milibackground (unless we limited it to those members recently separated from USAF). They also are there day in and day out doing the work - they aren't showing up two or three days a month to help out. If I was running a personnel action center today, I don't think I could come up with enough work to justify that kind of a part-time commitment. I'd want the same person at least 3 days a week every week. Anything less than that and it wouldn't be worth the effort to train and supervise the individual.
We'll see what kind of response folks get from just saying "how can we help" without suggesting ways in which we can help. My guess is we won't get very far without being able to brief, in detail, the kind of talent and committment we are able to apply on the customer's behalf. What skills sets can we offer? How many folks, how many days a week?
If we come in the door with some informed suggestions, we kickstart the conversation. We can say "we are pretty sure we could assist with X, Y, and Z - and if those aren't what you need, they're a good jumpoff point for further discussion."
If someone has some success with putting augmentees in USAF positions, please let us know what you did.
This type of thing almost has to be considered on an individual basis. If I had an HR professional who was willing to volunteer, I would use him or her as the volunteer coordinator. Their skills at analyzing a resume for appropriate skills to match up to the Air Force's local needs is exactly what we would need.
An HR professional could create a skill "Bank" for the base to use, if the base used the resources effectively.
Example (personal):
I was, in addition to being a qualified MP officer, a qualified public affairs officer. I could work on a regular basis as a journalist, I could help with editing, and I could help with media inquiries.
I coud be a cop, but CAP on't let me carry a gun, so that's out. But...
What would happen if there was a fatal accident on the base? As a civilian policeman, I was a traffic homicide investigator. I'm also a certified accident reconstructionist. Using a skills bank, this could be identified, and the MP duty officer could call me in to assist in the investigation.
This isn't as farfetched as it may sound. When I was an Army Reserve guy, I went to Florida and stayed on McDill AFB. There was a fatal involving an AF female sergeant who was killed by an intoxicated civilian contractor. The civilian promptly fled the scene. I was driving back to quarters after dinner, and stopped to ask about the confusion. I dropped my wife off at the quarters, and went back. The AF Security Forces guy was obvously overwhelmed, and it was, understandably, his first fatal.
I helped him with the measurements, (They had just gotten a laser speed device, and he was unaware that all of your measurements could be taken with a laser.) and called back to my partner to fax some mathematical formulas to me so I could do the speed determinations. (What in the H--L to you want THAT for at midnight? You're on vacation!) At that time, I had investigated maybe 30 fatals, so I was able to guide him in getting a lot of the information he would need.
He sprang for the coffee, and breakfast the next morning when we were done. That was all the thanks (and motivation) that I needed.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 16, 2007, 08:28:55 PM
This type of thing almost has to be considered on an individual basis. If I had an HR professional who was willing to volunteer, I would use him or her as the volunteer coordinator. Their skills at analyzing a resume for appropriate skills to match up to the Air Force's local needs is exactly what we would need.
An HR professional could create a skill "Bank" for the base to use, if the base used the resources effectively.
Example (personal):
I was, in addition to being a qualified MP officer, a qualified public affairs officer. I could work on a regular basis as a journalist, I could help with editing, and I could help with media inquiries.
I coud be a cop, but CAP on't let me carry a gun, so that's out. But...
What would happen if there was a fatal accident on the base? As a civilian policeman, I was a traffic homicide investigator. I'm also a certified accident reconstructionist. Using a skills bank, this could be identified, and the MP duty officer could call me in to assist in the investigation.
This isn't as farfetched as it may sound. When I was an Army Reserve guy, I went to Florida and stayed on McDill AFB. There was a fatal involving an AF female sergeant who was killed by an intoxicated civilian contractor. The civilian promptly fled the scene. I was driving back to quarters after dinner, and stopped to ask about the confusion. I dropped my wife off at the quarters, and went back. The AF Security Forces guy was obvously overwhelmed, and it was, understandably, his first fatal.
I helped him with the measurements, (They had just gotten a laser speed device, and he was unaware that all of your measurements could be taken with a laser.) and called back to my partner to fax some mathematical formulas to me so I could do the speed determinations. (What in the H--L to you want THAT for at midnight? You're on vacation!) At that time, I had investigated maybe 30 fatals, so I was able to guide him in getting a lot of the information he would need.
He sprang for the coffee, and breakfast the next morning when we were done. That was all the thanks (and motivation) that I needed.
In most of the examples I saw on the SDF sites, it's like you mentioned - folks using their professional skills (medical, legal, law enforcement, even military) that they learned outside the SDF. That way, there's no need for training by the military, and little dispute of the member's proficiency - after all, they've been certified by some outside agency. And normally, they are used for short duration surge kinda stuff (a weekend here and there, or a special event).
CAP could do that (we do it for chaplains), and I think create a workable program. But it's a far cry from "if you have the time, we'll train you to be a valuable member of the USAF team!" That is a lot less likely.
Quote from: Dragoon on February 16, 2007, 08:33:39 PM
In most of the examples I saw on the SDF sites, it's like you mentioned - folks using their professional skills (medical, legal, law enforcement, even military) that they learned outside the SDF. That way, there's no need for training by the military, and little dispute of the member's proficiency - after all, they've been certified by some outside agency. And normally, they are used for short duration surge kinda stuff (a weekend here and there, or a special event).
Actually, it's a fair mix of the two. They certainly make best use of ouside qualified people, which is a big part of what we'd bring to the fight as well. Yes, just exactly like we currently do with chaplains. This is merely an effort to expand upon that proven concept, and no CAP chaplains are not being called to active duty or serving three days a week on base. Now beyond that, SDFs do actually train some people to augment in other roles as well. Many times this is a civilian skill with is supplemented by some military specific training to create a person qualified to do the AF job, but not necessarily. They do train some people from scratch for a very limited number of jobs. Now, most of that training is accomplished by the SDF itself using retired service members & correspondence work to educate the person to military standards. Then there's OJT accomplished by the military & many times the individuals are awarded MOS/AFSC, but not necessarily. And of course there's prior-service too that can re-cert.
QuoteCAP could do that (we do it for chaplains), and I think create a workable program. But it's a far cry from "if you have the time, we'll train you to be a valuable member of the USAF team!" That is a lot less likely.
Actually it's exactly like "if you have the time, we'll train you to be a valuable member of the USAF team!" One wknd a month is good for the guard/reserve. A lot of people can do that. In fact that's where I'd start... pick a few reserve units, pick a half dozen slots they could use some help with in the same kind of roles SDFs do, plug in CAP members where possible. They help out, on drill wknds, but not the 2wks a year & obviously don't deploy with them. Move from there to working with some active units in the same kind of roles, boraden teh roles over time. We're talking about a long haul program in which we're just trying to help do our share. It'll never be a huge program, and it'll never change the world, but it's important. I wouldn't call it surge, but I wouldn't call it anything close to 3-days a week either.
I think dnall is right about targeting Reserve/Air NG units first. They've got a very high workload concentrated in a very small period of time during drills and any time we can free up for folks to do real training during that period is probably going to be much more valuable than to active duty folks. Also, Reserve/Air NG units might have more of a need for help outside the drill periods since only a percentage of their folks are on duty and the extra help might be appreciated. The Air NG is much more widespread than the Reserve and would offer more potential opportunities, but the state vs federal issue might complicate things. Nothing that couldn't be worked out, but would probably be better to hone the concept with the Reserve if possible before moving to Air NG.
I would hold off on the ANG till the last. I only mention the reserves as a pilot program because you can readily copy what SDFs are doing w/o threatening them. Then you;ve proven the concept to AF & worked out issues on the CAP side. With the program though we'd be better focused on federal, but it doesn't matter. You probaly have one kind of unit near you (active, res, or guars) so there's not much choice for you locally.
The Reserve are a better fit than active because they work on weekends and so do we. And they aren't the NG, they're federal, so no SDF food fight.
But honestly, I still haven't seen much online about SDF units being trained by NG for anything other than menial tasks. Please point me at it - virtually every reference so far has been about people bringing their existing skills to the table (and with the exception of medical, in relatively small numbers).
The guard will not spend 200k to make someone a helicopter mechanic, but if you already are one on the outside, they'll spend 2k teaching you about the specific systems on a blackhawk, and then they'll put you straight into the shop just like one of the guys. Those people down on the floor don't care about your uniform or the fact you're a part-time unpaid volunteer, they care how well you know your business. No they would not train you from ditch digger to F15 avionics technitian though. That has more to do with money & their return on it than what they think of augmentees or anything like that. The most complex stuff I've seen people trained from scratch on w/ no outside experience is comm & SF/MP, and I don't know of LE roles are at least initially going to be on the table, that'd be very complex.
Right. So other than the occasional radio operator and gate guard, we're primarily talking about folks with pre-existing skills. Not our average joe member who works at a department store and has no military background.
So....if we want to play that way, we have to get a handle on the assets we have, skills wise, who has 'em and who is willing to use 'em.
This is very different from just providing manpower. We either need a list of the skills and certifications that someone needs (so we can see if we have anyone who meets that description) or a list of the certifications that our members have to present to the customer.
Quote from: Dragoon on February 20, 2007, 06:52:36 PM
So....if we want to play that way, we have to get a handle on the assets we have, skills wise, who has 'em and who is willing to use 'em.
This is very different from just providing manpower. We either need a list of the skills and certifications that someone needs (so we can see if we have anyone who meets that description) or a list of the certifications that our members have to present to the customer.
We would also need to change our recruiting to "ask not what CAP can do for you, ask what you can do for CAP."
You'd want a "dream sheet" from the local base in one hand while you're screening prospective members and be ready to tell people "we don't need you right now," though I can't imagine a recruiter ever saying that.
Even when we thought someone was a total loser, we'd be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt while steering him away from jobs that seemed like a bad idea, like unsuccessful former Cadets coming back to work CP.
Quote from: Dragoon on February 20, 2007, 06:52:36 PM
Right. So other than the occasional radio operator and gate guard, we're primarily talking about folks with pre-existing skills. Not our average joe member who works at a department store and has no military background.
So....if we want to play that way, we have to get a handle on the assets we have, skills wise, who has 'em and who is willing to use 'em.
This is very different from just providing manpower. We either need a list of the skills and certifications that someone needs (so we can see if we have anyone who meets that description) or a list of the certifications that our members have to present to the customer.
Yes. I believe you'll find a call from HQ to update your profession on eServices so we can get a better handle on what our capabilities are. I do believe we need to go well beyond that to a range of certifications & what not that can even braodly be useful to the AF.
In conjunction with that we need to be talking to units building an assessment of what they're doing for/with military units now, and we need to put out some programs & streamlined regs to push them to do more so that assessment looks stronger when it's delevered. We also need to build w/ AFA on AE & advocacy (that'll pay off in a BIG BIG way).
Then we need to build a proposal, get BoG & AETC on board, & go brief Air Staff. In the meantime there's acalls for papers out there in the AF from Air Staff asking for what roles CAP should be used in, dpecifically if it should be limited or extremely boad & deep & if that's the case what directions & activities & why.
Some of this is already in process. Just the dots need to be connected. We're working toward inclusion in the total force concept & it'll come at some point. What we're talking abou there is jump starting it, bringing some organization/vision to the effort, & explicitly stating it as an organizational objective with guidance to units on how to do their part.
The other part is, that the current request only allows you to put in one occupation or skill. In my case, I'm now an Electrical Engineer, but I have several years experience both as an Navy Avionics Technician and Automotive Service Technician, both useable skills for augmentation that aren't going to be on their report They should probably develop a profile questionnaire to get a picture of the "complete" CAP member.
yeah that's what I mean. TXWG down here is putting together a database of outside ES skills, which I'm sure a lot of wings have done, that records sartech & junk like that. Something similiar in eServices for job skills would be helpful.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on February 10, 2007, 07:36:15 PM
George:
CAP can do a lot of things. Some of our members have been through either the Air Force tech school or a similar school in another branch. Our members would need a short period of OJT or familiarization with the particular base mission, but other than that, just about any job would be open to them.
For the cadets and officers who have never been trained in anything, there are still a few jobs that they could do, such as movement control of troops during deployment, making copies of unclassified material, etc.
The way I see an augmentation program working is this:
1. We assign an "Augmentation Coordinator" to a base, probably working somewhere in or near the personnel office.
2. The AC develops and publishes a standard application/resume format to CAP members.
3. Members who want to volunteer for the augmentation program submit a resume packet IAW the published guidance. The packet would include a statement of availability.
4. The AC determines where the member could best be utilized based upon the member's training and experience, and sends the packet to the officer in charge of the section where the AC proposes the member be assigned. The officer, at his option, can interview the CAP member, and schedule training as appropriate.
5. The AC will maintain records of the CAP members' participation for statistical and reporting purposes.
6. In the event the base requires additional assistance with an event, the AC will, depending on the nature and the scope of the event:
a. Call up selected volunteers from the folks who have submitted packets, and task/request their help with the special requirement.
b. Call the area unit commanders and request them to provide larger numbers of volunteers for the special requirement.
We're not waiting for a National-level program to get started here in FL. We will be providing tour escorts by April at Cape Canaveral Air Force Station. We are presently training a cadre of officers and cadets to do this.
Dragoon:
You must have missed this post?
QuoteBut honestly, I still haven't seen much online about SDF units being trained by NG for anything other than menial tasks. Please point me at it - virtually every reference so far has been about people bringing their existing skills to the table (and with the exception of medical, in relatively small numbers).
QuoteRight. So other than the occasional radio operator and gate guard, we're primarily talking about folks with pre-existing skills. Not our average joe member who works at a department store and has no military background.
Okay, here is an example....In Texas and California SDF members are fairly frequently called upon to process NG members who are being deployed out of the country. They help with paperwork and other issues related to that. In CA they get paid for it. I'm positive this is something that they just received OJT for on site and isn't "menial" as you characterized what might be done by "non-skilled" CAP members.
So aside from the Tours at the Cape, are there currently any CAP/DoD augmentation programs currently in the works?
Chaplains are already augmenting on a regular basis, but that is the only OFFICIAL program. By OFFICIAL, I mean an actual program that someone has thought through on both the CAP and AF side of the house. That is a bit different than some of the other things that apparently have gone on in the past that were based more on local personal relationships than any sort of national drive for an augmentation program.
There was at one point an MOU w/ Recruiting Service to easilky assist them. it wasn't widely used though & honestly it was just a lot of paperwork to get reimbursed for a couple bucks in gas to get over there, and of course the unknown that they'd direct kids over to us & we'd give them a chance at our guys when it's time.
Just wanted to point out a new story from the CG Aux on their activities in training enlisted recruits for the CG: http://www.teamcoastguard.org/2007/Mar/A070312/index.htm (http://www.teamcoastguard.org/2007/Mar/A070312/index.htm)
Among the things Auxies are doing there:
- working with the training center's recruit band
- small boat handling training
- giving tours of the center to the public
- training recruits in basic seamanship
- teaching personal finance
- filling in for pastor for Sunday services
I know someone will say "We're CAP, what CG Aux does is irrelevant because they are so different." Yes, the details of what CG Auxies are doing for the CG may not always be directly applicable, but the fact that a military service lets their civilian volunteer auxiliary be directly involved in providing basic training for new recruits should serve as a fine example of the sort of thing that civilian volunteers CAN do and be TRUSTED to perform.
Quote from: RiverAux on March 13, 2007, 08:44:13 PM
Just wanted to point out a new story from the CG Aux on their activities in training enlisted recruits for the CG: http://www.teamcoastguard.org/2007/Mar/A070312/index.htm (http://www.teamcoastguard.org/2007/Mar/A070312/index.htm)
Among the things Auxies are doing there:
- working with the training center's recruit band
- small boat handling training
- giving tours of the center to the public
- training recruits in basic seamanship
- teaching personal finance
- filling in for pastor for Sunday services
I know someone will say "We're CAP, what CG Aux does is irrelevant because they are so different." Yes, the details of what CG Auxies are doing for the CG may not always be directly applicable, but the fact that a military service lets their civilian volunteer auxiliary be directly involved in providing basic training for new recruits should serve as a fine example of the sort of thing that civilian volunteers CAN do and be TRUSTED to perform.
I think its VERY relevant. As I have said in other threads, we need to go to USAF more and ask "How can we help you?" There are many areas that can be open to our assistance and it is being done every day by units around the country. Unfortuantely, in many cases if we don't offer, they won't ask.
So get out there and work the PROPER channels and offer up! You'll be surprised at how fast they will accept.
Remember, USAF loves people who follow the proper chain.
I recently investigated augmenting an ANG band. After sending it up both chains of command, the CAP leadership said that it was entirely possible. The situation was to augment the tuba slot until a replacement was found. The ANG did not accept the offer with the unofficial reason of filling a slot with someone who was working for free would jeopardize the slot.
This was with the ANG not AD AF, so I don't know if funding situation is different elsewhere, but I would think it would be.
Food for thought.
That's kind of the point... If we can provide an matrix of assistance that allows them to save money (ie cut excess) & redirect it at more important priorities, isn't that what CAP is all about? You know like fly these missions in a Cessna cause it pushes the savings to combat power, all do our part, etc.
Yes I would anticipate resistance in some cases though based on just such a concern.
Quote from: Tubacap on March 14, 2007, 02:26:43 PM
I recently investigated augmenting an ANG band. After sending it up both chains of command, the CAP leadership said that it was entirely possible. The situation was to augment the tuba slot until a replacement was found. The ANG did not accept the offer with the unofficial reason of filling a slot with someone who was working for free would jeopardize the slot.
This was with the ANG not AD AF, so I don't know if funding situation is different elsewhere, but I would think it would be.
Food for thought.
Not exactly sure how it would jeapordize the slot. You are AF- Aux, you wear the AF Uniform - though for the band you might have to spring for Mess Dress. - It would be an ideal augmentation assigment. - Either on a continual or temporary basis.
( I minored in Trombone ;D )
Cause if they can get volunteers to do the work for free, then they can't justify to the govt why they should keep paying someone to do it & maybe we should take a wider look at your dept. It's a can of worms that's going to scare a lot of people responsible for units.
I think having someone volunteer to fill in a temporary vacancy is a LOT different than volunteering to take over the slot full time. I very much doubt that more than a handful of CAP members would ever volunteer enough to actually full an existing slot on any organization chart.
Dumb move by the Air National Guard.
Obviously you've never worked in a federal budgeting process. The theory is if you can find a volunteer part time/temp then maybe if you work a little harder you can find 25 to rotate & share the one full time positions for a period of time long enough that you don't need this position fully funded for the year. Any unit commander is going to worry about that for a moment before they proceed. They wouldn't take your help if it meant backing down their people from full time for instance, that would be a problem for them in the budget to keep all their folks. Where I think they are more apt to use you is where it helps control excessive overtime or asking for paid outside help, and when they may find themselve sin a surge situation where they are short handed or over loaded with work all of a sudden & you have a pool of volunteers they've kept trained & ready.
I work in government and we would look upon putting an unpaid volunteer in that slot for a few months while we tried to hire someone new as a very efficient use of resources.
As would I & any logical person on the planet, which congress is not (take your pick on logical or on the planet - the hot air floated them away a long time ago).
Seriously though try to see it from the other side... here you are trying to figure out how to save every penny, you got this division or whatever saying they just can't fight a war or defend the state w/o exactly 4 tuba players, 3 just won't get it done, the whole fabric of the universe will unravel. So you say fine okay we'll pay for it. Then they end up one short & rather than it being a all fired a national emergency they just fill it with a volunteer for a few weeks, turns into a few months. They get by with three when they have to & have the volunteer fourth when they really need it. So here's you again looking critically at this & saying, "You know what, I think you can get by on three paid slots, and you're to be commended for using volunteers to save critical resources (meaning do some more of that)." You can see how that has the potential to happen right? And how commanders who have to make those budget requests have the legitimate right o be concerned about it, however unlikly it may or may not be?
Oh, I see how that sort of thinking can happen, but the reality, as most of us agree, is that no CAP member is a real threat to any AF or Air NG slot.
I think you are forgetting that military units are organized in a pretty standard fashion and are authorized a certain number of people based on their unit type. A band is authorized their 4 tuba players and that one band where a CAP guy sat in for a few months is not going to lose a tuba slot since you would have to change the standard organization for Air NG bands and reduce them ALL by one tuba.
If we were talking about a civilian slot this argument might hold more water, but we're not.
You might be right, the slot wouldn't go away. The money, that's another story. If they can change the color of the money that's set against the slot, they'll use it somewhere else.
Just because they have a slot, doesn't mean they have to fill it, or can afford to.
BUMP
Just thought Id dust this off, see if it went anywhere.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on August 26, 2007, 02:28:51 AM
BUMP
Just thought Id dust this off, see if it went anywhere.
Well, thank you for the explanation. I augment on a Coast Guard station two days a week doing the administrative work preceding the issuance of a Maritime Event Permit, and I have a friend and fellow Auxiliary member who is an Orthopedic surgeon and augments at the base sick bay doing sick call. Early on in my Auxiliary career I augmented as a watch stander at the Air Station command center, but that job died when they realized that I didn't have a secret clearance. Now that the Auxiliary has a comprehensive background check, I have the clearance, but the air station is forty miles away through rush hour traffic. Anyway, I have a lot of interest in this subject, and it did a stealth number on me.
One of the advantages to augmentation from the AD side is continuity. Frequently the guys I work with are unfamiliar with the AOR (area of responsibility) and since I have lived, boated, and flown in this area for thirty years, I have local knowledge and can fill them in. I also provide procedure continuity as the personell are rotated in and out. Currently I am engaged in writing an Access program to keep track of the Marine Events, of which we licence about a hundred and fifty a year, and provide notice of no permit required to about another thirty. I work with a CWO-2, a senior chief (E-8) and a first class petty officer (E-6). It is almost embarrassing the way they keep telling me how much they appreciate my effort. Just as a "gee-whiz" the Sector command sent me to a week long Access school sponsored by SouthCom. The protocol was civilian clothing, so they didn't have to worry about my no longer strictly military appearance. If it had been uniforms, I would have been uncomfortably hot, since the only Auxiliary specific uniform is the blazer. They need other hot weather uniforms, but they don't have them yet. I work in the office in "working blue" which has gone out of style for the AD but is authorized for the Auxiliary until current stock wears out. (They are cutting us some slack because we buy our own uniforms and they are expensive.) I have two copies of the "ODU" uniform, but because I work with a previously broken back, the combat boots that go with that uniform take me about thirty minutes to get on without assistance.
Interesting to read that
Bac Si Kach is working as a tour guide. I need his schedule so I can drive up and take his tour.
I haven't seen any new stories about using CAP on AF bases (you better believe I would have brought it up here!), though the CG Auxiliary recently had a member in the Persian Gulfhttp://www.auxadept.org/navigator/2007SUMMER.pdf (http://www.auxadept.org/navigator/2007SUMMER.pdf) as part of the Coast Guard artist program. You'll note that this same issue has a story about CG Auxies helping train new CG recruits at their main training center.
Its stuff like this that gives me hope that at some point in the future the AF will open its eyes to the possibility.
We have a comprehensive program at ISC Miami (Intergrated Support Command Miami) with qualified Auxiliarists serving as firing range coaches. I qualified because my DD-214 has pistol and rifle expert on it, but I know for a fact there are ways to qualify that don't involve prior service. Worst thing about the program is that they always start the shooting shifts at seven a.m. and the base is an hour away from my house. I took my meritorious service commendation after the first iteration and moved to a job that reports a little later in the day.
BUMP
Has anyone anywhere seen any strides in this area over the last few months?
Quote from: RiverAux on March 15, 2007, 10:11:25 PM
I think having someone volunteer to fill in a temporary vacancy is a LOT different than volunteering to take over the slot full time. I very much doubt that more than a handful of CAP members would ever volunteer enough to actually full an existing slot on any organization chart.
Dumb move by the Air National Guard.
Seriously... didn't know ANG was unionized.
Quote from: afgeo4 on December 29, 2007, 06:05:50 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 15, 2007, 10:11:25 PM
I think having someone volunteer to fill in a temporary vacancy is a LOT different than volunteering to take over the slot full time. I very much doubt that more than a handful of CAP members would ever volunteer enough to actually full an existing slot on any organization chart.
Dumb move by the Air National Guard.
Seriously... didn't know ANG was unionized.
Actually, they are - at least some of them during the week.
As I mentioned somewhere else, the ANG people who work during the week keeping the aircraft running are either AGR (active guard/reserve - just like the AD types except they're locked to that base) and Air Technicians. Air Techs are federal civil servants who also have to be traditional guardsmen/reservists. Often, they are unionized federal employees.
I hadn't thought about it before, but I suppose if the "augmentation program" was used as a way to reduce the number of Air Techs or lower their hours, there might be a tussle with the union.
CAP volunteering to help the Air Force seems to only work during "one time" or "once a year" events such as an Air Show.
Volunteering help out on a routine basis, a whole different thing.
Now, if some of our CG Aux folks can explain the arrangement the Coast Guard has with the CG Aux and how this same arrangement could be used with the Air Guard or the Reserve, we might get somewhere.
I'll give you the simple rundown:
1. Auxie contacts local CG unit say he wants to help.
2. If unit needs help, they say come on down.
3. Auxie starts augmenting.
OR
1. Unit contacts flotilla, asks for help.
2. Flotilla asks for volunteers.
3. Volunteers help.
I've seen it done both ways in CG Aux.
The only times it is significantly more complex than that is if the Auxie needs some sort of security clearance or needs an account for the CG messaging system.
Only a minority of Auxies do this, but from what I can tell supply pretty much equals demand.
Incidentally, I personally know Auxies who are qualified and do stand watch as Inport Officer of the Day on a CG cutter (leaving the Auxie as the only one on board and freeing up a Coastie to spend more time with his family) and have also seen Auxies fill in answering phones at a recruiter office when they were shorthanded.
I am an Auxie, also CAP, that augments in a Coast Guard clinic as a health care provider. We are required to meet the same educational requirements as the CG/USPHS providers. We then go through the same credentialing process by the Armed Forces Inst. of Pathology as the CG/USPHS providers. Then the Auxie applicant is interviewed by the clinic Chief Med Off to determine what privileges will be extended.
The Auxie is covered by fed liability protection and since all CG med. records are electronic is given access to CG workstation/e-mail. I usually spend 2-3 days/mo seeing patients. I schedule my time with the clinic administrator or fill in when needed for last min. TDYs etc.
PA Guy is referring to one CG Aux augmentation program that is much more complex, and for obvioius reasons.
RiverAux is right. The program I'm in has many requirements due to its nature. He also brings up another good point. The number of Auxies that augment is quite small compared to the overall membership. I'm the only member of my flotilla to augment on a regular basis.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on December 29, 2007, 07:27:56 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on December 29, 2007, 06:05:50 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on March 15, 2007, 10:11:25 PM
I think having someone volunteer to fill in a temporary vacancy is a LOT different than volunteering to take over the slot full time. I very much doubt that more than a handful of CAP members would ever volunteer enough to actually full an existing slot on any organization chart.
Dumb move by the Air National Guard.
Seriously... didn't know ANG was unionized.
Actually, they are - at least some of them during the week.
As I mentioned somewhere else, the ANG people who work during the week keeping the aircraft running are either AGR (active guard/reserve - just like the AD types except they're locked to that base) and Air Technicians. Air Techs are federal civil servants who also have to be traditional guardsmen/reservists. Often, they are unionized federal employees.
I hadn't thought about it before, but I suppose if the "augmentation program" was used as a way to reduce the number of Air Techs or lower their hours, there might be a tussle with the union.
Neither AGR nor ART slots can be unionized. The military cannot have strikes at bargaining tables. I think you're confusing them with civilian contractors. If a contractor strikes, the employer may hire another contractor and the difference in cost to the employer shall be restitution by court.
In fact, I don't believe any US Gov't employees are unionized. What would be the point? The pay and benefits system is a comprehensive one. It works similar to the military in their pay scales and it is very strict about enforcing ALL labor laws and directives. Paying a third party dues is pointless in that situation. Besides, private organizations such as unions cannot be allowed to hold bargaining power or any power over the operations of the U.S. Government.
I believe there's another reason why ANG would turn down our help. If through our augmentation, the DMNA or National Guard Bureau sees that the unit requires less manning, they will cut the slot and reduce funding. They will simply advise the unit commander to pursue other avenues of accomplishing the mission and they would be right... save the taxpayers' money if you can.
However, an ANG airman may end up having to retrain into some other AFSC or go to ArNG or worse... be separated. Reduction in manning is seen as a failure to commanders as well.
As noted earlier in this thread, it is extremely unlikely that any CAP member (or group of CAP members) would volunteer enough time to eliminate the need to man a specific position in any unit.
And even if, for example, CAP members volunteered enough time to fill a specific slot, that unit is still going to have the same number of personnel slots according to its table of organization, which is based on what it needs to fulfill its primary mission. Since CAP members are not going to be going along when they are deployed, they will still need a person in that slot.
The point of augmentation is to free up time for military personnel to focus on high priority tasks as much as possible, not to reduce the need for them in the first place. Look at almost any job you want, civilian or military, and there are probably things that they need to do but can't because of other tasks that have to be accomplished. That is where CAP would fit in.
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 02, 2008, 02:41:57 AMIn fact, I don't believe any US Gov't employees are unionized. What would be the point? The pay and benefits system is a comprehensive one. It works similar to the military in their pay scales and it is very strict about enforcing ALL labor laws and directives. Paying a third party dues is pointless in that situation. Besides, private organizations such as unions cannot be allowed to hold bargaining power or any power over the operations of the U.S. Government.
I take it you've never heard of the AFGE, the American Federation of Government Employees.
They are the union that represents the Air Reserve Technicians (ART's) in the Air Force Reserve.
Matter of fact, many government employees are union represented. They can't go on strike but they do everything else a union does.
This grew out of something on the AF Uniform thread, but I'm going to draw my line in the sand here because it's more appropriate.
(now, being AF, I don't have a sword and I don't want to dirty my coffee spoon, so I'll have to use my 360 round protractor - it looks kind of like some Klingon martial arts weapon)
If someone came into my area and said "I'm Major Bagadoughnuts from the AF Aux and I'm here to here to help," I'd have immediate problems.
Why? Because he's claiming to be part of the game when he's not. By using the title "Major," he is placing me in a peculiar situation. As an E-8, it's not my job to direct Majors. Subtly manipulate, maybe, but not direct. Where does a "Major who's not a Major" fit on the pecking order?
For example, say the Major was walking down the street and an AF Lt is coming from the other direction. Three things could happen:
- Worst Case - He tries to jack up the Lt for not saluting. Verdict: He's a whack job, lose him.
- Middle Case - He passes the Lt and no salutes take place. Verdict: he thinks he's above the Lt. He could be a problem and bears further watching.
- Best Case - He salutes the Lt. Verdict: weird, but we can probably work with him.
Now, this could all be avoided if he dropped the grade. A civilian, even in uniform, who comes in and says, "Hi, I'm Joe - what can I do to help out?" is easier to deal with from my point of view.
I think this explains why the CGAUX went the way they did with an Aux "grade pin." If we want to keep grade for our own purposes, fine. However, let's not let it get in the way of our job.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 03, 2008, 10:52:41 PM
- Worst Case - He tries to jack up the Lt for not saluting. Verdict: He's a whack job, lose him.
- Middle Case - He passes the Lt and no salutes take place. Verdict: he thinks he's above the Lt. He could be a problem and bears further watching.
- Best Case - He salutes the Lt. Verdict: weird, but we can probably work with him.
You're 'best case' is still the 'wrong case.' Point to me any CAP directive that says that Majors salute Lieutenants, or, even better, point me to a directive that says that Air Force Officers are above CAP Senior Members for legal/ceremonial purposes.
QuoteNow, this could all be avoided if he dropped the grade. A civilian, even in uniform, who comes in and says, "Hi, I'm Joe - what can I do to help out?" is easier to deal with from my point of view.
I think this explains why the CGAUX went the way they did with an Aux "grade pin." If we want to keep grade for our own purposes, fine. However, let's not let it get in the way of our job.
Even through I'm against this whole 'Base Augment' idea for a dozen different reasons, if it did happen, I think that following the CGAux idea of removing 'grade' insignia is the best.
Quote from: JThemann on January 03, 2008, 11:02:38 PM
Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 03, 2008, 10:52:41 PM
- Worst Case - He tries to jack up the Lt for not saluting. Verdict: He's a whack job, lose him.
- Middle Case - He passes the Lt and no salutes take place. Verdict: he thinks he's above the Lt. He could be a problem and bears further watching.
- Best Case - He salutes the Lt. Verdict: weird, but we can probably work with him.
You're 'best case' is still the 'wrong case.' Point to me any CAP directive that says that Majors salute Lieutenants, or, even better, point me to a directive that says that Air Force Officers are above CAP Senior Members for legal/ceremonial purposes.
[/quote]
As soon as you show me a place where it says a CAP Major is like a RM O-4.
I admit, it looks funny for a guy who looks like a Major to salute a Captain, but it's better than a CAP Major thinking he's a player.
The rank insignia is a legitimate issue to be discussed though I think it is a very minor one.
If I were a commander weighing whether it is worthwhile to have a CAP guy do some tasks that would free up someone to do something my boss is breathing down my neck about or if I would refuse that help on the off chance that one of my airmen might accidentally salute that CAP person, I know which I would think is most important.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 03, 2008, 11:08:44 PM
Quote from: JThemann on January 03, 2008, 11:02:38 PM
Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 03, 2008, 10:52:41 PM
- Worst Case - He tries to jack up the Lt for not saluting. Verdict: He's a whack job, lose him.
- Middle Case - He passes the Lt and no salutes take place. Verdict: he thinks he's above the Lt. He could be a problem and bears further watching.
- Best Case - He salutes the Lt. Verdict: weird, but we can probably work with him.
You're 'best case' is still the 'wrong case.' Point to me any CAP directive that says that Majors salute Lieutenants, or, even better, point me to a directive that says that Air Force Officers are above CAP Senior Members for legal/ceremonial purposes.
As soon as you show me a place where it says a CAP Major is like a RM O-4.
I admit, it looks funny for a guy who looks like a Major to salute a Captain, but it's better than a CAP Major thinking he's a player.
[/quote]
I disagree. A CAP Major is a CAP Major. A RM Lieutenant is an RM Lieutenant. The RM Lieutenant is in a different organization then the CAP Major.
The best option would proberly be for neither of them to salute. Why do you assume that the CAP Major automatically assume he's 'a player.'
Basically, what you're saying is we should toss out the C & C rules and traditions, because a few CAP members think they're 'players' (whatever that means). And futhermore, you're saying that CAP members should salute RM members because RM guys are better.
Should I be saluting Airmen and Privates?
Remember the whole "salute the rank, not the person". I think the "Real Military" LT would end up saluting the CAP Major if they walked past each other on the street, not for recognition of the person or of CAP, but in recognition of the oak leaf.
The rank is just a title in CAP, nothing more. If it gets a salute from those of lesser rank, so be it. It does not cause the world to fall apart for an AF LT to salute a CAP Major.
This argument would better be served to show reasons to get rid of rank OTHER than citing customs and courtesies. If we can't find other reasons to remove the rank from CAP, in my book it should stay.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 03, 2008, 10:52:41 PM
Why? Because he's claiming to be part of the game when he's not.
I've avoided this thread because I wasn't sure exactly how to phrase the way I felt about this subject, but that's got to be the best analogy I've heard yet.
I'm all for people helping out, but the fact that anyone is in CAP does not qualify them to walk into any blue suit job that I'm aware of and readily augment a position, the AF is simply not set up this way. Lets face it, the AF is not the Coast Guard, and they aren't likely to start acting like them.
This is not to say that a volunteer might not be qualified to help, but most of the jobs are either technical enough that a volunteer could never meet or obtain the requirements they would need to actually do the job productively, or the job would require training / authorization / clearances / experience / etc. that would make it impractical to use a volunteer, especially on an infrequent basis. And by the time you eliminate the jobs that are just impractical to augment, the ones that are left aren't that glamorous.
Now, if you really want to help out, I'd suggest you have your local unit CC figure out what your resources are and get with the local Family Services Center, or better yet the local 1st Sgt's Group and volunteer to help the families of the deployed members. There's always someone who needs help keeping a yard mowed or getting something fixed while their spouse is deployed.
ADCAPER, there are several State Defense Forces currently providing just this very support to their Air National Guards. Basically they are drawing from the same exact pool of volunteers that we are and they are able to provide about the same level and type of support that CAP could to the AF. Are CAP members going to be rebuilding jet engines? Of course not, but they certainly could be doing the same sort of stuff that the E-3 fresh out of boot camp is doing there, and maybe a bit more depending on the CAP member's background.
Quote from: RiverAux on January 04, 2008, 12:13:10 AM
ADCAPER, there are several State Defense Forces currently providing just this very support to their Air National Guards. Basically they are drawing from the same exact pool of volunteers that we are and they are able to provide about the same level and type of support that CAP could to the AF. Are CAP members going to be rebuilding jet engines? Of course not, but they certainly could be doing the same sort of stuff that the E-3 fresh out of boot camp is doing there, and maybe a bit more depending on the CAP member's background.
Quote from: RiverAux on January 04, 2008, 12:13:10 AM
ADCAPER, there are several State Defense Forces currently providing just this very support to their Air National Guards. Basically they are drawing from the same exact pool of volunteers that we are and they are able to provide about the same level and type of support that CAP could to the AF. Are CAP members going to be rebuilding jet engines? Of course not, but they certainly could be doing the same sort of stuff that the E-3 fresh out of boot camp is doing there, and maybe a bit more depending on the CAP member's background.
:clap:
My point exactly.
Quote from: RiverAux on January 04, 2008, 12:13:10 AM
Of course not, but they certainly could be doing the same sort of stuff that the E-3 fresh out of boot camp is doing there, and maybe a bit more depending on the CAP member's background.
Ain't no such thing as a E-3 fresh out of boot camp at an Air Force Base unless it's a Air Education and Training Command base and the E-3 is a student in a school.
Just about everybody in the Air Force goes to a technical school after graduating BMT.
I can't think of a job that a military member is performing on an Air Force Base that a CAP Volunteer can do unless they got a bunch of training first.
About the only places I can think where a CAP Volunteer could be used would be stuff like the Family Support Center where their workforce is 100% volunteer.
Quote from: mikeylikey on January 03, 2008, 11:51:40 PM
Remember the whole "salute the rank, not the person". I think the "Real Military" LT would end up saluting the CAP Major if they walked past each other on the street, not for recognition of the person or of CAP, but in recognition of the oak leaf.
We don't salute costume jewelery in the military - the oak leaf represents the authority of the wearer - an authority we ape with our use of it.
QuoteThe rank is just a title in CAP, nothing more. If it gets a salute from those of lesser rank, so be it. It does not cause the world to fall apart for an AF LT to salute a CAP Major.
This argument would better be served to show reasons to get rid of rank OTHER than citing customs and courtesies. If we can't find other reasons to remove the rank from CAP, in my book it should stay.
Customs and Courtesies in the military are meant to reinforce the structure of the military. Salutes are given by a subordinate and returned by a superior. Equals do not salute each other in the military.
Personally, I think I'm a much sharper person than many officers. The salute is there to remind me that, in the end, they are the ones in charge, not me. The salute is there to remind them that, if the poop were to suddenly hit the rotating blades, they're expected to take charge and move out. The salute reminds each of us of our duties.
In CAP, salutes are exchanged between members based on the number of boxtops that you sent to the home office in Montgomery, AL. I salute Colonels and Generals even though they hold no authority over me based on their grade. Likewise, my CAP sqdn commander may salute me, even though he is the one in charge. We take a core concept of the military and stand it on its head. Worse, some people here think it's no big deal to get the military to "play along" with our little saluting game.
In short, the saluting problem is the visible tip of the whole jacked up CAP organizational iceberg. We do military stuff without ever understanding why they do it. That's why the whole "looking more like AF officers" movement in uniforms spikes my BP.
We're CAP: an organization with noble goals and an honorable lineage. We should revel in it, be proud of it. We should strive to do those things that make us an even better force of unpaid professionals, not those that make us the "Fantasy Air Force."
One Team, One Fight, One Uniform
^ Air Force Services (hotel, etc.), The DFAC, Recruiting Office, Mailroom, Guard Shack, The gym, DEERS Office, Vehicle Registration, Thrift shop or Arimans attic, education center, arts and crafts center, Family Readiness Group center, Post Office, answering phones in reserve centers, teaching free foreign language.
The list is huge, these are what are coming to me after taking a long drink of nyquil. Mikey's not feeling very good. :'(
Hope others can add to the list! Good night!
Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 04, 2008, 05:53:24 AM
One Team, One Fight, One Uniform
Who are we fighting? Other than each other?
I agree we need ONE uniform, and right now, I could care less what that uniform ends up being. I thought I did care, but the argument is getting old and actually makes me tired thinking about it.
I also agree it is one CAP team. One CAP team playing in one AF team. I was really hopping that the AF would eventually come out and include CAP in it's total force structure, but sadly that will NEVER EVER Happen.
blah
Quote from: PHall on January 04, 2008, 05:48:56 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on January 04, 2008, 12:13:10 AM
Of course not, but they certainly could be doing the same sort of stuff that the E-3 fresh out of boot camp is doing there, and maybe a bit more depending on the CAP member's background.
Ain't no such thing as a E-3 fresh out of boot camp at an Air Force Base unless it's a Air Education and Training Command base and the E-3 is a student in a school.
Just about everybody in the Air Force goes to a technical school after graduating BMT.
I can't think of a job that a military member is performing on an Air Force Base that a CAP Volunteer can do unless they got a bunch of training first.
About the only places I can think where a CAP Volunteer could be used would be stuff like the Family Support Center where their workforce is 100% volunteer.
I can think of a few things, but not for the average CAP'er.
Volunteers with a certified professional ability would be easy to integrate. We do that right now with Chaplains and could do it with lawyers and medical professionals.
The problem with most CAP types you can either do the AF missions they don't want: SAR and Cadet Training, for example, or you can do unskilled labor like the DFAC.
If we wanted a real AF mission, I would suggest trying to get into deployment support. It's something that needs doing but isn't done often enough for an average AF/AFRES/ANG unit to devote troops to it full time. Contracting that out to CAP would take something off their plate and would be an occasional call, which would be easier to staff. We could partner with a unit, practice at their readiness exercises and be checked out during their ORE/ORI's.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 04, 2008, 06:03:29 AM
If we wanted a real AF mission, I would suggest trying to get into deployment support. It's something that needs doing but isn't done often enough for an average AF/AFRES/ANG unit to devote troops to it full time. Contracting that out to CAP would take something off their plate and would be an occasional call, which would be easier to staff. We could partner with a unit, practice at their readiness exercises and be checked out during their ORE/ORI's.
Things that make you go "Hmmm". That's actually a really good idea. Do it often enough, shuffling people at an incident site would be a cake walk.
Wonder what it would take? Not sure who in CAP would do it, but I imagine there would be plenty of people that would jump at the chance. We ought to really look into this concept.
Quote from: JThemann on January 04, 2008, 12:56:43 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on January 04, 2008, 12:13:10 AM
ADCAPER, there are several State Defense Forces currently providing just this very support to their Air National Guards. Basically they are drawing from the same exact pool of volunteers that we are and they are able to provide about the same level and type of support that CAP could to the AF. Are CAP members going to be rebuilding jet engines? Of course not, but they certainly could be doing the same sort of stuff that the E-3 fresh out of boot camp is doing there, and maybe a bit more depending on the CAP member's background.
But that doesn't answer some fundamental questions.
1. Will enough CAPers volunteer to make the program worth while.
2. Will it make the average Air Force guys life easier if we do, or will it make it harder because he has a bunch of vollys hanging around him.
3. Will the Air Force NEED the help?
4. Would be doing this to help the Air Force, or to make our own members feel better about their CAP service.
ddelaney has a couple of good points
1. If we're going to augment, we can be the most help with the occasional "surge" task, like deployment support, or OPFOR for training exercises or the like, rather than ongoing tasks that take place M-F from 9-5. Most of us have jobs.
2. If we're going to augment, and work alongside blue suiters, we gotta leave the grade at the door. No matter what we say about "CAP is different so it doesn't matter", it DOES matter to the guy on the other side. Majors don't work for E-8s. We'll do much better with "hi, I'm Mr. Smith the Auxiliarist and I'm here to help." We have to respect their culture if we want their respect.
Delaney, I love ya, but I gotta disagree.
First. Base augmentation can't be a CAP guy showing up and offering to help. it has to be, like any other operation, well planned, with a close match of skills and training with assignment. There has to be a training period to bring the CAP guy up to speed on local home rules, and there has to be consideration given so that CAP guys are NOT assigned duties inconsistent with officer rank, but are not in supervisory positions over AF personnel. I don't want a 60-year old Lt Col policing the area, and neither do you. (And neither does the 60-year old Lt Col!)
Second. Rank is immaterial, except for the above consideration.
Third. You are wrong on a CAP major saluting a AF 1LT. There are several possible outcomes for a meeting engagement:
1. Lt salutes Maj., salute is returned, everyone goes about their business.
2. Lt. greets Maj without salute, but a cheery "Good Morning." Maj responds with "Good morning, Lieutenant," and everyone goes about their business.
3. Lt. ignores the Maj., and (If the Maj is me) the Maj. loudly and cheerfully greets the Lieutenant, and if possible, reminds the Lt. that while "Military Courtesy" may or may not be called for, "Common Courtesy" is the mark of a gentleman. Then we all go about our business.
Here in Grp. 4 Florida Wing, we augment the Patrick AFB PA shop by providing tour guides for the AF Space and Missile Museum. The tours are given to tourists from KSC, who pay $22 for a bus ride over, and PAFB personnel, contractors, VIP's, media, etc. We wear the AF uniform of the day (flight suit/BDU) and are courteously addressed by our rank by AF folk. Most (estimate 70 percent) salute out of courtesy, although I am sure they understand it is not required. We are scheduled when possible, but we have been called up from home when a tour group wanted to come through without prior coordination. We come through for them, if at all possible.
Once I was driving in the gate behind the tour bus, having got one of those "Hurry-up" calls at home. The AF public affairs MSgt. saw this from the bus, and had the driver take a rolling tour of Cape Canaveral AFS instread of going directly to the museum. That gave me the time I needed to get the lights on, and the tour set up. By the time the tour (Defense and space contractor executives) got to the museum, I was ready to greet them at the door of the bus. We herded them into the firing room at Launch Complex 26B (From where the first American earth satellite, the Explorer I, was launched on 31 Jan 1958). By the time I started my tour... "Good afternoon. I am Major John Kachenmeister of the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary, and I want to welcome you on behalf of the 45th Space Wing to the place where America first stepped into space..." nobody knew that somebody had dropped the ball arranging their tour.
I think that kind of response makes me a player. Sorry if you disagree.
Well, here is an idea for your augmentation idea. Now, I grew up green so this may need some translation, but one area I can envision CAP doing a huge and valuable job is helping out the rear detachment of deployed units.
Scenario: 453rd Messkit Repair Squadron is deployed. Behind they have left a 1LT as the Rear D Commander and a skeleton crew of folks who didn't get deployed because of profile, school dates, etc...
All there families are there, with all the issues that come up. Whether it's a pay or allotment issue, a broken water pipe, an expired ID card, or whatever.
A CAP Squadron "adopts" the deployed unit, and assists with everything from keeping the lights on, to assisting dependent members navigate the issues of life, to just plain old helping answer phones (CQ/SDNCO type stuff)
When I was a Rear-D Commander at Bragg, I would have loved have had this sort of support system, to help augment the Family Support Groups and the Rear Detachment.
By the same token, no reason to limit this type of support to just the Air Force. Anyhow, a real mission that supports the real warfighters, that at the end of the day you feel like you actually helped someone.
Quote from: Falshrmjgr on January 04, 2008, 06:19:58 PM
Well, here is an idea for your augmentation idea. Now, I grew up green so this may need some translation, but one area I can envision CAP doing a huge and valuable job is helping out the rear detachment of deployed units.
Scenario: 453rd Messkit Repair Squadron is deployed. Behind they have left a 1LT as the Rear D Commander and a skeleton crew of folks who didn't get deployed because of profile, school dates, etc...
All there families are there, with all the issues that come up. Whether it's a pay or allotment issue, a broken water pipe, an expired ID card, or whatever.
A CAP Squadron "adopts" the deployed unit, and assists with everything from keeping the lights on, to assisting dependent members navigate the issues of life, to just plain old helping answer phones (CQ/SDNCO type stuff)
When I was a Rear-D Commander at Bragg, I would have loved have had this sort of support system, to help augment the Family Support Groups and the Rear Detachment.
By the same token, no reason to limit this type of support to just the Air Force. Anyhow, a real mission that supports the real warfighters, that at the end of the day you feel like you actually helped someone.
NO KIDDING!!!!!!!!
I was on a 6-month deployment to Honduras in the 80's and we desperately needed consistent rear-area support back in the US. Dependent ID issues, legal issues, coordination of medical insurance benefits between CHAMPUS and the trooper's (or Mrs. Trooper's) civilian healthcare coverage, employer involvement, contracting for stuff needed back at the home station, and a whole bunch of other issues. CAP could perform a great service to deployed units, especially Reserve units that don't have a state guard to depend on.
Plus, we have enough retired officers who still hold commissions that can assist in execution of legal documents, oaths, etc.
Good thinking FalschirmJaeger!
There are some great ideas here. The same technique would work just as well to adopting a Guard unit in towns that have no military installation.
However, I think we need to quit talking about it.
Instead, let's put this stuff together in a decent package, and kick it up the chain. Start beating the bushes for support. Do something about it. If we just sit here and say "That's a great idea" and do nothing about, all we've done is waste a few more keystrokes.
Another upside is that we would be more immersed in our own communities.
Unfortunately, the translation reads more something like this...
The 239th Maintenance Squadron deploys about 12 personnel that join 67 other maintenance personnel deployed from other squadrons to form the 13th Expeditionary Maintenance Squadron.
The remainder of 238th MXS continues to carry out their work back on their home base while their Group/Wing HQ continue to carry out support functions such as personnel, finance, logistics, etc.
Air Force and Army are structured differently and deploy differently. There is no unit cohesion as such outside of flying units because Air Force units are made up of groups of specialists. USAF has been working within the AEF systems for a looooong time and have this whole thing down pretty well. There are no rear detachments that need augmentation.
However, many units need augmentation when they lose members to deployment and there are units that are always hard up for personnel. Personally, I think our members could do great work for Family Readiness. I think we could also work with Public Affairs, Recruiting, Services, Readiness, Medical, and Legal.
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 04, 2008, 03:51:39 PM
Delaney, I love ya, but I gotta disagree.
First. Base augmentation can't be a CAP guy showing up and offering to help. it has to be, like any other operation, well planned, with a close match of skills and training with assignment. There has to be a training period to bring the CAP guy up to speed on local home rules, and there has to be consideration given so that CAP guys are NOT assigned duties inconsistent with officer rank, but are not in supervisory positions over AF personnel. I don't want a 60-year old Lt Col policing the area, and neither do you. (And neither does the 60-year old Lt Col!)
Second. Rank is immaterial, except for the above consideration.
Third. You are wrong on a CAP major saluting a AF 1LT. There are several possible outcomes for a meeting engagement:
1. Lt salutes Maj., salute is returned, everyone goes about their business.
2. Lt. greets Maj without salute, but a cheery "Good Morning." Maj responds with "Good morning, Lieutenant," and everyone goes about their business.
3. Lt. ignores the Maj., and (If the Maj is me) the Maj. loudly and cheerfully greets the Lieutenant, and if possible, reminds the Lt. that while "Military Courtesy" may or may not be called for, "Common Courtesy" is the mark of a gentleman. Then we all go about our business.
Here in Grp. 4 Florida Wing, we augment the Patrick AFB PA shop by providing tour guides for the AF Space and Missile Museum. The tours are given to tourists from KSC, who pay $22 for a bus ride over, and PAFB personnel, contractors, VIP's, media, etc. We wear the AF uniform of the day (flight suit/BDU) and are courteously addressed by our rank by AF folk. Most (estimate 70 percent) salute out of courtesy, although I am sure they understand it is not required. We are scheduled when possible, but we have been called up from home when a tour group wanted to come through without prior coordination. We come through for them, if at all possible.
Once I was driving in the gate behind the tour bus, having got one of those "Hurry-up" calls at home. The AF public affairs MSgt. saw this from the bus, and had the driver take a rolling tour of Cape Canaveral AFS instread of going directly to the museum. That gave me the time I needed to get the lights on, and the tour set up. By the time the tour (Defense and space contractor executives) got to the museum, I was ready to greet them at the door of the bus. We herded them into the firing room at Launch Complex 26B (From where the first American earth satellite, the Explorer I, was launched on 31 Jan 1958). By the time I started my tour... "Good afternoon. I am Major John Kachenmeister of the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary, and I want to welcome you on behalf of the 45th Space Wing to the place where America first stepped into space..." nobody knew that somebody had dropped the ball arranging their tour.
I think that kind of response makes me a player. Sorry if you disagree.
Oh no, I agree - you're a wannabe. But, once you admit you have a problem you'll be on your way to recovery. ;)
The collective CAPTalk approach to "Officer-iness" is somewhat bipolar. You'll hear, "Our grade is not RM grade," but there are lots of "respect my grade" nuggets thrown in as well.
Two examples from your post:
...there has to be consideration given so that CAP guys are NOT assigned duties inconsistent with officer rank...So, we're not officers but expect to treated as such? It sounds like you want to have it both ways.
Lt. ignores the Maj., and (If the Maj is me) the Maj. loudly and cheerfully greets the Lieutenant, and if possible, reminds the Lt. that while "Military Courtesy" may or may not be called for, "Common Courtesy" is the mark of a gentleman. Then we all go about our business.
As a SMSgt, I would be unlikely to "call out" an officer like that in public if s/he didn't didn't return my salute or greeting. My question is: would you do the same to a RM Colonel/General?
If so, then you've set yourself up as the base's Ms. Manners - good luck with that.
If not, then you've decided to insert yourself into the system. You have decided the oak leaves on your shoulder give you the right to instruct Lt's. While saying you're not an officer, you've claimed RHIP.
It appears you've stumbled into one of the classic missions of CAP: doing things the AF can't or won't support. 45th Space doesn't want to waste a Major giving tours, so they get a CAP Major to impress the touristas. They get a tour guide that looks like a Major and you get the thanks of a grateful AF.
However, for most other jobs, "being an officer" is going to get in the way.
I wouldn't sell short the ability of CAP members to learn and do more than just basic tasks either. CG Aux members standing watch on CG cutters have to learn every aspect of the ship, including having to make drawings showing how varioius systems work, and have to be very familiar with bringing online quite a lot of the machinery on board the ship including engines, fire pumps, dewatering systems, etc. Complicated stuff.
So, I'm fully confident that there are more than enough things that CAP members could do on a base to keep those members willing to do them fully occupied. Heck, it wouldn't even have to be the "base" in general and could just be one or two squadrons that CAP members focused on working with.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on January 04, 2008, 10:25:21 PM
Quote from: JohnKachenmeister on January 04, 2008, 03:51:39 PM
Delaney, I love ya, but I gotta disagree.
First. Base augmentation can't be a CAP guy showing up and offering to help. it has to be, like any other operation, well planned, with a close match of skills and training with assignment. There has to be a training period to bring the CAP guy up to speed on local home rules, and there has to be consideration given so that CAP guys are NOT assigned duties inconsistent with officer rank, but are not in supervisory positions over AF personnel. I don't want a 60-year old Lt Col policing the area, and neither do you. (And neither does the 60-year old Lt Col!)
Second. Rank is immaterial, except for the above consideration.
Third. You are wrong on a CAP major saluting a AF 1LT. There are several possible outcomes for a meeting engagement:
1. Lt salutes Maj., salute is returned, everyone goes about their business.
2. Lt. greets Maj without salute, but a cheery "Good Morning." Maj responds with "Good morning, Lieutenant," and everyone goes about their business.
3. Lt. ignores the Maj., and (If the Maj is me) the Maj. loudly and cheerfully greets the Lieutenant, and if possible, reminds the Lt. that while "Military Courtesy" may or may not be called for, "Common Courtesy" is the mark of a gentleman. Then we all go about our business.
Here in Grp. 4 Florida Wing, we augment the Patrick AFB PA shop by providing tour guides for the AF Space and Missile Museum. The tours are given to tourists from KSC, who pay $22 for a bus ride over, and PAFB personnel, contractors, VIP's, media, etc. We wear the AF uniform of the day (flight suit/BDU) and are courteously addressed by our rank by AF folk. Most (estimate 70 percent) salute out of courtesy, although I am sure they understand it is not required. We are scheduled when possible, but we have been called up from home when a tour group wanted to come through without prior coordination. We come through for them, if at all possible.
Once I was driving in the gate behind the tour bus, having got one of those "Hurry-up" calls at home. The AF public affairs MSgt. saw this from the bus, and had the driver take a rolling tour of Cape Canaveral AFS instread of going directly to the museum. That gave me the time I needed to get the lights on, and the tour set up. By the time the tour (Defense and space contractor executives) got to the museum, I was ready to greet them at the door of the bus. We herded them into the firing room at Launch Complex 26B (From where the first American earth satellite, the Explorer I, was launched on 31 Jan 1958). By the time I started my tour... "Good afternoon. I am Major John Kachenmeister of the U.S. Air Force Auxiliary, and I want to welcome you on behalf of the 45th Space Wing to the place where America first stepped into space..." nobody knew that somebody had dropped the ball arranging their tour.
I think that kind of response makes me a player. Sorry if you disagree.
Oh no, I agree - you're a wannabe. But, once you admit you have a problem you'll be on your way to recovery. ;)
The collective CAPTalk approach to "Officer-iness" is somewhat bipolar. You'll hear, "Our grade is not RM grade," but there are lots of "respect my grade" nuggets thrown in as well.
Two examples from your post:
...there has to be consideration given so that CAP guys are NOT assigned duties inconsistent with officer rank...
So, we're not officers but expect to treated as such? It sounds like you want to have it both ways.
Lt. ignores the Maj., and (If the Maj is me) the Maj. loudly and cheerfully greets the Lieutenant, and if possible, reminds the Lt. that while "Military Courtesy" may or may not be called for, "Common Courtesy" is the mark of a gentleman. Then we all go about our business.
As a SMSgt, I would be unlikely to "call out" an officer like that in public if s/he didn't didn't return my salute or greeting. My question is: would you do the same to a RM Colonel/General?
If so, then you've set yourself up as the base's Ms. Manners - good luck with that.
If not, then you've decided to insert yourself into the system. You have decided the oak leaves on your shoulder give you the right to instruct Lt's. While saying you're not an officer, you've claimed RHIP.
It appears you've stumbled into one of the classic missions of CAP: doing things the AF can't or won't support. 45th Space doesn't want to waste a Major giving tours, so they get a CAP Major to impress the touristas. They get a tour guide that looks like a Major and you get the thanks of a grateful AF.
However, for most other jobs, "being an officer" is going to get in the way.
Well, I agree in part. Yes, CAP does the missions that the AF can't or won't support. The museum is a classic example. So is inland SAR. Our mission of external AE meshes perfectly in this case with a specific AE need of the AF. Yes, the AF gets a pseudo senior officer without having to pay for one, and the public gets educated. Serendipity.
How often does a colonel fail to return your salute? I will bet that your answer is somewhere between the theoretical and the ridiculous, since as an officer it is considered very bad form to fail to return the salute of a subordinate. I used to work as a general's aide, and I recall the 1-star I worked for seeing one of his battalion commanders fail to return a salute from a couple of NCO's. I was told to clear the boss' schedule that afternoon enough to allow for an hour of discussion regarding appropriate officer behavior with the LTC. Such discourtesy is taken very seriously, and reflects very badly upon an officer.
If I encounter an officer senior to me in grade, I render a salute. I expect it to be returned as a mark of courtesy. If an officer or enlisted man in the AF chooses not to salute, but rather render a verbal greeting, fine. But to front me off by rudely ignoring me? Nope, that behavior is uncalled for. I may not be an Air Force officer, but I'm not a homeless bum with a "Will work for food" sign, either.
Would I "Call out" as you put it, a senior officer for such rudeness? I don't consider setting the example of courtesy and gentlemanly conduct to be "Calling out" an officer, although an officer lacking social skills may consider my cheerful greeting to be "Calling him out." Oh well. C'est la vie... c'est la guerre...sin loy.
As far as the rest of your response, I don't believe I made my position clear. Let me try again.
Considering an augmentation mission, and what jobs can be performed by CAP members, I said that the jobs should "Not be inconsistent" with officer rank. By that I meant they should not be jobs that are so menial that an officer should never do them. There aren't many such jobs in the AF. Policing the area and KP are done by civilian contractors, usually. But any task that an officer would not demean his rank to perform could be done by CAP members, even if the task was normally performed by enlisted persons. Journalist in the PA shop comes to mind, as does operations weather briefers, clerks in pass and ID, and maybe some others if I think hard enough.
Quote from: RiverAux on January 04, 2008, 11:21:30 PM
I wouldn't sell short the ability of CAP members to learn and do more than just basic tasks either. CG Aux members standing watch on CG cutters have to learn every aspect of the ship, including having to make drawings showing how varioius systems work, and have to be very familiar with bringing online quite a lot of the machinery on board the ship including engines, fire pumps, dewatering systems, etc. Complicated stuff.
So, I'm fully confident that there are more than enough things that CAP members could do on a base to keep those members willing to do them fully occupied. Heck, it wouldn't even have to be the "base" in general and could just be one or two squadrons that CAP members focused on working with.
Don't CG Aux members have access to in residence "C" Schools? We don't have access to tech schools.
Quote from: RiverAux on January 04, 2008, 11:21:30 PM
I wouldn't sell short the ability of CAP members to learn and do more than just basic tasks either. CG Aux members standing watch on CG cutters have to learn every aspect of the ship, including having to make drawings showing how varioius systems work, and have to be very familiar with bringing online quite a lot of the machinery on board the ship including engines, fire pumps, dewatering systems, etc. Complicated stuff.
Am I correct though in thinking that we (CG-Auxies) can only stand watch while the cutter is tied up? As in, we do not stand watch underway.
(Cooks and some others excepted)
Quote from: afgeo4 on January 05, 2008, 08:13:24 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on January 04, 2008, 11:21:30 PM
I wouldn't sell short the ability of CAP members to learn and do more than just basic tasks either. CG Aux members standing watch on CG cutters have to learn every aspect of the ship, including having to make drawings showing how varioius systems work, and have to be very familiar with bringing online quite a lot of the machinery on board the ship including engines, fire pumps, dewatering systems, etc. Complicated stuff.
So, I'm fully confident that there are more than enough things that CAP members could do on a base to keep those members willing to do them fully occupied. Heck, it wouldn't even have to be the "base" in general and could just be one or two squadrons that CAP members focused on working with.
Don't CG Aux members have access to in residence "C" Schools? We don't have access to tech schools.
Yes we do, however with the exception of Cooks, most of our in residence schools only last as long as your typical SLS/CLC and focus on such things as Auxiliary PAO, Auxiliary Computer Database "How-To" , etc... in other words, they are NOT the tech schools that the AD Coast Guard uses, but instead courses designed to help the Auxiliarist do his Aux job better. The pominent exception is the CG Cooks program. Auxiliarists can attend that course in residence and become a fully certified DoD Culinary Specialist. However attending this course requires a contractual agreement to augment X amount of days as a cook per year. (Or at least it did) And there is the question of Vacation time to attend... ::)
Things like Communications Specialist, Buoy Inspector (ATON), cutter Bridge and Engineering watchstander... all that comes from some coorespondance courses followed by hands on apprenticeships at the AD unit.
QuoteIf an officer or enlisted man in the AF chooses not to salute, but rather render a verbal greeting, fine. But to front me off by rudely ignoring me? Nope, that behavior is uncalled for. I may not be an Air Force officer, but I'm not a homeless bum with a "Will work for food" sign, either.
But, lets say you were a CAP Senior Memeber who had his grade insignia rotated 90 degrees off, had his branch and name tapes sewn on wrong, had a blue tee shirt on, and wasn't wearing a hat.
(We've all seen this guy)
What type of coutresy would you expect?
Quote from: JThemann on January 05, 2008, 03:16:15 PM
QuoteIf an officer or enlisted man in the AF chooses not to salute, but rather render a verbal greeting, fine. But to front me off by rudely ignoring me? Nope, that behavior is uncalled for. I may not be an Air Force officer, but I'm not a homeless bum with a "Will work for food" sign, either.
But, lets say you were a CAP Senior Member who had his grade insignia rotated 90 degrees off, had his branch and name tapes sewn on wrong, had a blue tee shirt on, and wasn't wearing a hat.
(We've all seen this guy)
What type of courtesy would you expect?
As an Officer (Military) speaking to another Officer (CAP) I would say "your uniform is jacked up, why don't you get that fixed up. Here is what I can help you do" And I would help him or her out. If you let that guy slide he will keep wearing that uniform and whether we like it or not "everyday Joe blow citizen" will see a CAP uniform and equate that to the military". So in reality I am making the organization look better by getting that terd's uniform squared away.
Bigger question.......what did you do when you saw a fellow Officers uniform all jacked??
RANT.......
I hate to go back to referencing the ACA, but from what I see in pictures, and in person, they apparently can get their uniforms squared away. And from a distance it is hard to tell them from actual military. That is what blows my mind......they wear subdues tapes, metal rank and are permitted too. WE can't even get the AF to authorize us GORTEX pants yet. What the crap!?!?!
I have a feeling the ACA will be augmenting military units and bases more than CAP would ever dream of doing. Wait a few months.......
ACA RANT OVER!
Quote from: mikeylikey on January 05, 2008, 04:44:48 PM
Quote from: JThemann on January 05, 2008, 03:16:15 PM
QuoteIf an officer or enlisted man in the AF chooses not to salute, but rather render a verbal greeting, fine. But to front me off by rudely ignoring me? Nope, that behavior is uncalled for. I may not be an Air Force officer, but I'm not a homeless bum with a "Will work for food" sign, either.
But, lets say you were a CAP Senior Member who had his grade insignia rotated 90 degrees off, had his branch and name tapes sewn on wrong, had a blue tee shirt on, and wasn't wearing a hat.
(We've all seen this guy)
What type of courtesy would you expect?
As an Officer (Military) speaking to another Officer (CAP) I would say "your uniform is jacked up, why don't you get that fixed up. Here is what I can help you do" And I would help him or her out. If you let that guy slide he will keep wearing that uniform and whether we like it or not "everyday Joe blow citizen" will see a CAP uniform and equate that to the military". So in reality I am making the organization look better by getting that terd's uniform squared away.
Bigger question.......what did you do when you saw a fellow Officers uniform all jacked??
RANT.......
I hate to go back to referencing the ACA, but from what I see in pictures, and in person, they apparently can get their uniforms squared away. And from a distance it is hard to tell them from actual military. That is what blows my mind......they wear subdues tapes, metal rank and are permitted too. WE can't even get the AF to authorize us GORTEX pants yet. What the crap!?!?!
I have a feeling the ACA will be augmenting military units and bases more than CAP would ever dream of doing. Wait a few months.......
ACA RANT OVER!
It's because they didn't ask, and they're not part of the Army.
Plenty of peusdo military organizations wear subduded tapes.
Why do we need too?
There have been cases of CG Aux members augmenting in critical positions while underway on cutters. It is not the norm, but it happens. CG Aux members augment at all sorts of shoreside CG units as well including CG command centers.
CG Aux members do not go to the technical CG schools, but I have heard of CG Auxies training to be an Engineer of the Watch through OJT on a small cutter. That is no walk in the park.
But, the reality is that CAP members would probably not be serving in any highly technical specialtis for the AF for the simple reason that its easier to train us to do the low tech work so that they can spend more time on high-tech stuff.
Quote from: RiverAux on January 05, 2008, 09:27:42 PM
There have been cases of CG Aux members augmenting in critical positions while underway on cutters. It is not the norm, but it happens. CG Aux members augment at all sorts of shoreside CG units as well including CG command centers.
CG Aux members do not go to the technical CG schools, but I have heard of CG Auxies training to be an Engineer of the Watch through OJT on a small cutter. That is no walk in the park.
But, the reality is that CAP members would probably not be serving in any highly technical specialtis for the AF for the simple reason that its easier to train us to do the low tech work so that they can spend more time on high-tech stuff.
River... I've read on CG Aux website, and heard from flotilla commanders that CGAux members DO have the opportunity to attend some of USCG's A (or is it C?) schools.
"C" schools. http://cschool.auxservices.org/ There are geared at Aux members, though I have heard of Aux members attending others that are more CG oriented.
I've never heard of an Aux member going to an A school. I know one Aux member who somehow managed to wrangle his way into the REBI program (basic training for Reservists), but that seemed to be more of a public affairs stunt than anything else.
Quote from: RiverAux on January 06, 2008, 01:46:07 AM
"C" schools. http://cschool.auxservices.org/ There are geared at Aux members, though I have heard of Aux members attending others that are more CG oriented.
I've never heard of an Aux member going to an A school. I know one Aux member who somehow managed to wrangle his way into the REBI program (basic training for Reservists), but that seemed to be more of a public affairs stunt than anything else.
Please refer to my last posting. The Culinary Course is open to Auxies and is an "A" school at Pateluma, It is the exception though... the others are "C"
I have heard of the Aux cook program but I was sure that they had set up a special training course for Auxies, though I wouldn't be surprised to learn of some going to that A school.
Its the A school. They even bunk with the AD students, but like I say, it is THE exception
So... to revisit this in light of the new VSAF program...
what jobs can " YOU" do with the minimum refresher/OJT training?
^ I know how to work a calculator, turn on an IBM compatible computer, sign my name, use a day/time stamper, fill out cash receipts, do managerial accounting, sign people into and off of duty, pull CQ, and eat for free on Government vouchers at either the DIFAC, or the Post/ Base Burger King. If we don't get to eat for free in this new VSAF program.......that will be a bummer! :(
BUMP
Anything new on this in the last year?
Anyone heard how the VSAF trial is going?
I think I bumped one of the VSAF threads a while back and didn't get any response, so I think that the people that were in the program that provided some early info may have dropped out of CAPTalk..
Be a shame if it fizzled........
Lot of potential.
Looking for someone in VSAF? I haven't been on here in a while, sorry.
From what I am told the program is still kicking along and I am still Volunteering at my base.
Good to hear from you again. Are you aware of any sort of actual formal evaluation being done about how the VSAF program is working? For example, is anyone working on a report of how things have been going in actual practice?
I don't know about any report that may come out, but I do know that they do have a weekly teleconference specifically regarding VSAF. Here lately a lot of the talk has been about marketing of the program.
How many CAP members are now participating in it on your base? Have you seen anyone join CAP specifically for this program yet?
I don't know for sure, but I believe we have three people counting my self. I am working with the Exercise Office, one person is working with the Honor Guard (he did join specifically for VSAF), and I think there is another person working in the hospital.
Only 3 people? Well, although I'm a big fan of this program I've always said that it would be unlikely that we would have tons of CAP members doing it, so I'm not too surprised. However, once the program is established, I think there is definetely the potential to recruit people into CAP just for it, but as you suggest, marketing it is an issue.
The CG Auxiliary has faced a similar problem in that while they have all sorts of augmentation opportunities they don't really market it very well. But marketing these things is really hard since the need for people for specific duties is always going to be changing and will ultimately be dependent on the whims of the AF officer in charge of each unit.
Quote from: RiverAux on January 27, 2009, 07:27:33 PM
Only 3 people? Well, although I'm a big fan of this program I've always said that it would be unlikely that we would have tons of CAP members doing it, so I'm not too surprised. However, once the program is established, I think there is definitely the potential to recruit people into CAP just for it, but as you suggest, marketing it is an issue.
Why?
CAP's mission is
not USAF augmentation, and if members are going to join specifically to do VSAF jobs and nothing else, they might as well just find a way to recruit volunteers directly and leave us out of it.
Quote from: Eclipse on January 27, 2009, 07:34:09 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on January 27, 2009, 07:27:33 PM
Only 3 people? Well, although I'm a big fan of this program I've always said that it would be unlikely that we would have tons of CAP members doing it, so I'm not too surprised. However, once the program is established, I think there is definitely the potential to recruit people into CAP just for it, but as you suggest, marketing it is an issue.
Why?
CAP's mission is not USAF augmentation, and if members are going to join specifically to do VSAF jobs and nothing else, they might as well just find a way to recruit volunteers directly and leave us out of it.
Our entire ES mission is USAF augmentation!
Quote from: Title 36, Subtitle II, Part B, Section 402The purposes of the corporation are as follows:
(1) To provide an organization to—
(A) encourage and aid citizens of the United States in contributing their efforts, services, and resources in developing aviation and in maintaining air supremacy; and
(B) encourage and develop by example the voluntary contribution of private citizens to the public welfare.
(2) To provide aviation education and training especially to its senior and cadet members.
(3) To encourage and foster civil aviation in local communities.
(4) To provide an organization of private citizens with adequate facilities to assist in meeting local and national emergencies.
(5) To assist the Department of the Air Force in fulfilling its noncombat programs and missions
Granted interanally we have divided CAP's purpose into three missions. VSAF clearly fallus under para (5) "To assist the Department of the Air Force in fulfilling its noncombat programs and missions" as does SAR, CD, DR and DHS missions we are doing.
Exactly right, this program falls exactly within one of the purposes for which we are organized and quite frankly is a lot closer to the intent of those purposes than many other activities that we engage in.