Amateur radio support to CAP missions?

[RiverAux]

When Florida gets whacked with our next hurricane and the Wing Commander needs to communicate with Region HQ, VHF won't cut it.    Likewise Wing to Group comms in the vast majority of cases.

Has HF been a critical component in reacting to recent hurricanes in Florida? 

[CAP.is.1337]

Here's something I like! All those VX-150's and old Motorolas still have a use for us!

9-15. Limited Support for Amateur Radio Training.
In CAP units making use of Amateur Radio as a unit training activity, corporate radio equipment which is no longer NTIA compliant, and therefore is no longer authorized for operational missions, may be used on amateur frequencies, with advance permission from National Headquarters requested via wing and region headquarters. Equipment used for this purpose shall have all CAP frequencies and/or frequency determining elements removed. At no time shall Amateur Radio frequencies be used in conduct of Civil Air Patrol business or missions, IAW para 11-2.

Anyway, here's the main section in question:

11-2. Use of Amateur Radio Service by CAP. CAP members acting in any CAP capacity may not use amateur radio frequencies on behalf of CAP.

a. When the Civil Air Patrol conducts operational missions for the Air Force, it functions as an "instrumentality of the United States", IAW CAPR 20-1, para 4. Because CAP uses federal frequencies managed by the NTIA and assigned to the Air Force, CAP is defined as a federal frequency user, regardless of the "customer." Under federal law and regulation, instrumentalities of the United States and federal frequency users are prohibited from encroaching on civilian frequencies regulated by the Federal Communications Commission, including amateur radio frequencies.

b. FCC rules prohibit conducting the business of any organization on amateur radio frequencies for pecuniary (financial) interest. Because CAP members receive Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA) insurance and Federal Employee Compensation Act (FECA) insurance, CAP members have pecuniary interest while signed in to Air Force tasked missions and have the status of a federal employee.

c. Where amateur radio "third party" traffic is needed to support a CAP mission, CAP communication managers may seek the support of local amateur radio clubs and organizations. CAP members who are licensed amateur radio operators and who are not acting in any CAP capacity (e.g. not signed into a mission) are not prohibited from exercising their amateur privileges and supporting affiliated amateur organizations using privately owned amateur equipment.

d. Amateur radio frequencies shall not be programmed into corporate radios, including those purchased with local assets, except as provided in para 9-15.

I must admit I am new to both CAP Comms and Ham radio, but I think this is a very good step in the right direction.

[JoeTomasone]

Here's something I like! All those VX-150's and old Motorolas still have a use for us!

9-15. Limited Support for Amateur Radio Training.
In CAP units making use of Amateur Radio as a unit training activity, corporate radio equipment which is no longer NTIA compliant, and therefore is no longer authorized for operational missions, may be used on amateur frequencies, with advance permission from National Headquarters requested via wing and region headquarters. Equipment used for this purpose shall have all CAP frequencies and/or frequency determining elements removed. At no time shall Amateur Radio frequencies be used in conduct of Civil Air Patrol business or missions, IAW para 11-2.

Just remember (and I have passed this up through channels as well) -- this section neglects to tell you that you need an Amateur Radio license to transmit on Amateur frequencies.    I am concerned that some members won't realize that when they read this section if it's left as-is.

[BillB]

During the 1950's a Florida Wing Director of Communications made an HF radio for base or mobile use. He sold several hundred. These were 2-3 channel AM transcievers that in todays dollars would have sold for $300 plus power supply. On one mission in Florida and Georgia, I was able to keep in contact via HF with both Florida Wing and Georgia Wing control stations.
But in 2009, the HF capability is no longer there. The radios are to expensive for the average member to purchase, Ham radios don't meet specifications, and High bird and VHF repeaters have basically replaced HF. But that being said there is still a place for HF radios in CAP. But overall, hams have more flexibility in bands available, types of emissions and fairly low prices for equipment. CAP used to have the capability for RTTY and one squadron I was a member of, had an RTTY setup that they picked up from an USAF base at no cost. Wing also had an RTTY setup as well as several other Squadrons. So over the years CAP has dropped some of the capabilities for HF operations, and maybe hams can fill that void.

[Dirtman]

Hint: Comms are for ES.  Period. 

No, there for Mission Support.  Comms are for support of the mission, not just ES, what ever that Mission might be, ES, Encampments, O Flights, Parades, Field Training, Model Rocket Launch, etc.  And support of that Mission, as in ES, might be outside of the Mission area where VHF, Cell Phones and land lines don't work or work well. 

You sir are fortunate to live where ever it is that you live that Cell Phone, Land Line and Repeaters exist.  Where I live, those things are not always a given, CAP or Civilian.  And an HF cloud burner may be the only way to talk to the next town or get any info when the lights go off for days. 

[Eclipse]

Hint: Comms are for ES.  Period. 

No, there for Mission Support.  Comms are for support of the mission, not just ES, what ever that Mission might be, ES, Encampments, O Flights, Parades, Field Training, Model Rocket Launch, etc.  And support of that Mission, as in ES, might be outside of the Mission area where VHF, Cell Phones and land lines don't work or work well. 

I understand and support the sentiment, but the in actual practice that is incorrect.

We get radios and airplanes because of ES.

The ability of these assets to perform and support other missions is extra, line-item justification for the toys, but not the underlying reason they are paid for by Uncle Sam.

You sir are fortunate to live where ever it is that you live that Cell Phone, Land Line and Repeaters exist.  Where I live, those things are not always a given, CAP or Civilian.  And an HF cloud burner may be the only way to talk to the next town or get any info when the lights go off for days. 

On that point I'll have to defer, as in Florida.  If you need it, have it, and can make it work, good on 'ye.

But when you start talking about whether HF is important in a CAP context that's a different story, especially in urbanized areas with large populations and professional ES.

What do I, as a CAP Commander, ES asset, or Joe Rankinfile, need to talk to the next town for?  If I'm deploying for DR, then I'm locked inside that universe, and while it might be nice to talk to someone outside VHF, there's not much they can do for me.

And if I'm not deploying for DR, then my uniform is in the closet and I'm more worried about the zombie hordes than whether I can still get a Mitchell approved from Region via HF.

Everybody has a hobby, and if you like to spend your money doing atmospheric skip to try and QSL some guy in Coinslotiskan, cool, but to insinuate it has much use in CAP is another matter.

I used to work for a mid-sized municipality, and during '99 we were doing our Armageddon planning for Y2K like everyone else.  The EMA coordinator was vocal and insistent in every meeting that we spend several thousand dollars on an HF antenna up on the city's main ES tower.

When pressed for why this was critical, he said that "If things really go to hell, it'll be important to be able to contact people outside the town for help, and the phones won't be working."

Mayor:     "Who are we going to call for help?"

EMA Guy:     "Australia, for example, is very prepared for the coming crisis..."

About a week later the Fire Chief was slotted on the org chart as the EMA director.   

[wuzafuzz]

Even leaving HF out of the conversation for a moment, hams can still do plenty on VHF that we can't.  Try running D-STAR on CAP freqs.  Not allowed.  That might be handy when you can't get an Internet connection or setup a LAN.

There are other things under the sun that can be useful to us, even when our cell phones and CAP VHF (voice) systems are working just fine.  

Personally I don't care how my comms are transmitted, I just want them to get through.  HF, VHF, ham, or smoke signals.  

[Dirtman]

We get radios and airplanes because of ES.

I agree, and that is sad.  Sad that we have become a one "mission" organization.  So much for the other two missions.

Personally I don't care how my comms are transmitted, I just want them to get through.  HF, VHF, ham, or smoke signals. 

Agreed.  And the problem is that for the most part, "here", based on my years in the program, they don't get through when they have to.  And Hams are not the answer, training our own is the answer.  The question is when will that happen?

[Dirtman]

Mayor:     "Who are we going to call for help?"

EMA Guy:     "Australia, for example, is very prepared for the coming crisis..."

About a week later the Fire Chief was slotted on the org chart as the EMA director.

Funny!  And needs to happen more often in towns/cities across the nation.  Needs to happen in our town here.  But when your related to the political big wig, then you get to keep your job no matter how useless you are!

And I don't think CAP has much need for the "hobby" as you say.  That is not what I was trying to say.  What I was trying to say was that there are times when VHF and cell phone don't cut it.  Then what do we do?  We use an asset that we don't know how to use or do nothing? 

[Eclipse]

And I don't think CAP has much need for the "hobby" as you say.  That is not what I was trying to say.  What I was trying to say was that there are times when VHF and cell phone don't cut it.  Then what do we do?  We use an asset that we don't know how to use or do nothing?

Do nothing is the plan today, apparently, and until CAP's mission requires longer-range comms, that's likely how it will stay.

We have to look at it from the practical standpoint of the mission and what other tech exists to fill the need.

HF, for whatever reason, still seems to require more than "turn-key" operation, which means that the gear is generally in the home of some member interested in babysitting it - not much use in a mission.

We recently did a comm exercise where we put up highbirds across the whole state to pass mission traffic - it worked great, and were were able to put up a chain just about point to point across all 400ish miles. That is much more likely a scenario we'd use than trying to mess with HF.

I can tell you from personal experience that, at least in Mississippi, the cel phones worked all the way to the Gulf Coast within a week of the hurricane, and the majority of Comms back to Jackson and the bases was VHF via either airborne repeater or high-bird relay.

Cellular data circuits and SMS worked pretty good as well, depending on your carrier.

We also had SAT phones, though admittedly the birds were saturated and coverage was spotty.

They dinked around with HF at Stennis for at least a week before it worked at all, and even then was not reliable.

[wuzafuzz]

So what can hams do for us?  Anything?  

The question doesn't have to be HF vs VHF, but whether there are people out there with skills and capabilities we can make use of.  Can they do things for us we can't do ourselves because of regulations? (Training won't change that.)  Can they do a few things we don't want to spend our money on?

We don't have to talk to Mars, or even Australia, but I am having a hard time accepting the concept that we would never want, need, or even benefit from a little help.

[Eclipse]

So what can hams do for us?  Anything? 

Very little, if anything, within the current plan.

OPSEC, Frequency restrictions, and other limitations keep CAP members and traffic on our radios and HAMS on theirs.

[Major Lord]

Well, there is nothing that I see that prohibits us from Monitoring the ARS bands, or from their Monitoring us ( although the hams would have to look up our "secret" frequencies on the Internet!) we just can't transmit on each other's frequencies. (unless its really important) I think we have enough Hams in CAP to know how to set up an HF antenna without having to go to hams for outside support, so it seems moot. Just sucker, er, recruit more hams into CAP to support Comm's. Of course, I am biased ( I manufacture APRS tracking transmitters for the ARS) but it woud be nice to be able to take advantage of the prety much world-wide network of APRS digipeaters and internet back-boned repeaters the Ham world has, such is life....

Major Lord
KG6HXO
GROL + RADAR

[JoeTomasone]

But when you start talking about whether HF is important in a CAP context that's a different story, especially in urbanized areas with large populations and professional ES.

What do I, as a CAP Commander, ES asset, or Joe Rankinfile, need to talk to the next town for?  If I'm deploying for DR, then I'm locked inside that universe, and while it might be nice to talk to someone outside VHF, there's not much they can do for me.

OK, so step into my shoes for a moment.   You're the Comms Officer for a Group that includes a reasonable-sized city (Tampa, FL).    Major Hurricane Tony comes calling, and you find yourself:

1. With no power (and let's make that for a week).

2. No landline or cell capability.

3. No repeater (antenna is damaged; site has no power).

4. No Internet.


How will you communicate with Wing to request assistance (say, a highbird)?   HF is how.  You'll use/make a dipole for SA, get it in a tree, and report your status and call for assets as needed.

[JoeTomasone]

And Hams are not the answer, training our own is the answer.  The question is when will that happen?

Training doesn't address the fact that the "Official" training (i.e. BCUT/ACUT) produces what a ham would call a "minimal appliance operator" who is completely unprepared to do anything but operate a perfectly working radio setup.   Introduce a power failure, antenna damage, or even a blown fuse, and it's pretty much all over.   Couple this with the fact that 99% of BCUT/ACUT holders use a radio perhaps once per year, and even that knowledge gets stale and forgotten quickly.

Most hams won't join once they find out that they both cannot use their radios and won't be issued one anytime soon -- if ever -- given the USAF Table of Allowances (gonna take a while to get that GTL, my new SM friend!).   Many of the hams that we have left are aghast at the decimation of our comms capability inherent in CAP's strict adherence to NTIA specs (we are the only organization doing so, btw) and in its reluctance to approve any radio under $1000.00.    NTC's stated direction is to move to a Corporate-owned comm network; that casts aside probably 2/3 of the comm capacity we once had.

I was recruited back into CAP as a Senior Member 10 years ago by the then NY Wing Commander to help give comms a shot in the arm, drawing on my Ham emergency communications experience.   You'd never get me to do it today. 

[Eclipse]

But when you start talking about whether HF is important in a CAP context that's a different story, especially in urbanized areas with large populations and professional ES.

What do I, as a CAP Commander, ES asset, or Joe Rankinfile, need to talk to the next town for?  If I'm deploying for DR, then I'm locked inside that universe, and while it might be nice to talk to someone outside VHF, there's not much they can do for me.

OK, so step into my shoes for a moment.   You're the Comms Officer for a Group that includes a reasonable-sized city (Tampa, FL).    Major Hurricane Tony comes calling, and you find yourself:

1. With no power (and let's make that for a week).

2. No landline or cell capability.

3. No repeater (antenna is damaged; site has no power).

4. No Internet.


How will you communicate with Wing to request assistance (say, a highbird)?   HF is how.  You'll use/make a dipole for SA, get it in a tree, and report your status and call for assets as needed.

Without power?

What are you requesting assistance for?

[wuzafuzz]

But when you start talking about whether HF is important in a CAP context that's a different story, especially in urbanized areas with large populations and professional ES.

What do I, as a CAP Commander, ES asset, or Joe Rankinfile, need to talk to the next town for?  If I'm deploying for DR, then I'm locked inside that universe, and while it might be nice to talk to someone outside VHF, there's not much they can do for me.

OK, so step into my shoes for a moment.   You're the Comms Officer for a Group that includes a reasonable-sized city (Tampa, FL).    Major Hurricane Tony comes calling, and you find yourself:

1. With no power (and let's make that for a week).

2. No landline or cell capability.

3. No repeater (antenna is damaged; site has no power).

4. No Internet.


How will you communicate with Wing to request assistance (say, a highbird)?   HF is how.  You'll use/make a dipole for SA, get it in a tree, and report your status and call for assets as needed.

Without power?

What are you requesting assistance for?

Amazing what you can do with generators or batteries.

I believe the gentleman mentioned requesting a highbird.  Participation in disaster relief being the likely reason.  That's not a stretch in the least.

[Eclipse]

You're missing my point - I'm being semi-factitious to push buttons, but I'm also honestly curious about what sort of plans or resources SER can turn on areas during a disaster.

Obviously anyone depending on HF is going to have a generator, batteries, or some other alternative power source.

Round my parts, once my family was safe, etc., I'd start trying to contact my Unit CC's, and see about connecting with wing regarding deploying somewhere for missions, but I have no expectation they are prepared to send help the other way, unless the AO happens to be in my neighborhood.

Absent missions, I'm going back home to try and find the cure while and checking out DVD's I haven't seen.

[JoeTomasone]

Without power?
What are you requesting assistance for?

<ES Hat>
Personnel to assist in the ground DR mission since our local members are overwhelmed; aerial recon for damage assessment; comms in the State EOC for our RECON ground teams; UDF teams to silence entire airports, etc.
</ES Hat>

<Ops Hat>
Relief aircrews, possibly parts/supplies, etc.
</Ops Hat>

<Comms Hat>
I'm not requesting anything; the Commander is.   
</Comms Hat>

[JoeTomasone]

see about connecting with wing regarding deploying somewhere for missions

And that's where you'd need HF.   Wing HQ is 200 air miles from Tampa, and 600 air miles from Pensacola.   For that matter, our Wing Commander would be cut off from the majority of his staff without HF if it were Katrina-like.