Amateur radio support to CAP missions?

[wuzafuzz]

Now that the use of hams to pass traffic on our behalf has been blessed or clarified in draft form, I'm curious about scenarios were we might effectively use them. 

See Draft 100-1 Section 11-2(c).
http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R100_001_draft_438DDE60D3640.pdf

I am not suggesting we offload our internal capabilities.  Amateur radio operators might be able to fill in the gaps or provide some capabilities we don't have.  As much as I'd like to think we can do it all ourselves, I've seen enough missions and exercises to know that's not always the case.

Thoughts?  Strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats?

[JoeTomasone]

More tools in the toolbag = good.

Just leveraging Winlink is a significant force multiplier all by itself.    Add in the Amateur ability to use whatever HF band suits the task and their sheer number of repeaters, and there are lots of scenarios in which they might assist.

The sole issue I have (and have commented through channels on) is that having a restriction against using Amateur Radio while signed in to the mission is a mistake -- we should be allowed to introduce that traffic into the system.  I can foresee CAP Hams "staying home" from the mission just in case they are needed to pass CAP traffic via ham radio.

Of course, it probably need not be said, but CAP is the only organization that so encumbers its members.

[arajca]

CAP traffic is not permitted to be passed via ham radio.

The issue I have with the flat out prohibition is liaison communications. With the slashing of CAP radio numbers, what do we use if an incident base (the doo-do hit the fan type incidnet) is using ham radios for long-haul comms? How do we communicate with the base?

[JoeTomasone]

CAP traffic is not permitted to be passed via ham radio.

In the Draft 100-1, Amateur Radio may be used to pass CAP traffic as their standard 3rd party traffic.  The restriction is that CAP members acting as CAP members (in uniform, signed in to the mission) may not originate/receive the communication on Amateur frequencies -- requiring either a CAP member/Ham who is not signed in, or some other method (telephone, in person contact, etc).

[wuzafuzz]

CAP traffic is not permitted to be passed via ham radio.

In the Draft 100-1, Amateur Radio may be used to pass CAP traffic as their standard 3rd party traffic.  The restriction is that CAP members acting as CAP members (in uniform, signed in to the mission) may not originate/receive the communication on Amateur frequencies -- requiring either a CAP member/Ham who is not signed in, or some other method (telephone, in person contact, etc).

If some hams come and co-locate in or near our comm room, we could simply pass them a message form, or provide some files on a USB thumb drive to transmit.  As long as they can talk ICS we should be able to use them in that manner shouldn't we?

With our focus on VHF I like arajca's thought about using hams for long haul comms.  Might be kind of handy when phones don't work.  Been there done that on recent missions.

The forced separation for CAP members who are also hams seems annoying, but the way the rules are explained it does seem to make some sense. 

[JoeTomasone]

If some hams come and co-locate in or near our comm room

Indeed.   "If".   

[wuzafuzz]

If some hams come and co-locate in or near our comm room

Indeed.   "If".   

If they don't want to do that, then it's a non-starter.  I suspect some hams would be perfectly willing to help in that way.  Then again, many emcomm group are already affiliated with local governments or hospitals.  They might not have the capacity to add another customer.  YMMV.

[isuhawkeye]

mabye when cap goes in to help an EMA the HAMS will already be there

[Eclipse]

With the slashing of CAP radio numbers..

[JoeTomasone]

If some hams come and co-locate in or near our comm room

Indeed.   "If".   

If they don't want to do that, then it's a non-starter.  I suspect some hams would be perfectly willing to help in that way.  Then again, many emcomm group are already affiliated with local governments or hospitals.  They might not have the capacity to add another customer.  YMMV.

I should have been clearer -- the question is not if they will be willing to assist; as a ham myself I can assure you that they will.  My contention is that they won't always be where we are when we need them just because they might not have been asked to provide comms to the same location.   I can see co-location at an EOC, for example, but less so at a CAP Mission Base (at an airport, for example..).

[arajca]

With our focus on VHF I like arajca's thought about using hams for long haul comms.  Might be kind of handy when phones don't work.  Been there done that on recent missions.

Using hams for CAP long haul comms is NOT a suggestion. CAP has it's own hf system, although it does need more emphasis. These internet and email thing-a-ma-bobs have replaced it for routine communications. CAP should be using CAP hf for long haul comms.

[Dirtman]

mabye when cap goes in to help an EMA the HAMS will already be there

ARES/RACES face the same ICS training probelms that CAP faces in order to serve its customers.  Many Hams who have been members of ARES organizations have not taken any of the ICS modules.  In our local ARES group, which is to serve our local hospital, I and one other member are the only ones who have completed ARRL ARECC Level III, or any ARECC Level for that matter, and the ICS 100,200,700,800.  Even the EC hasn't taken any of them.  So if the balloon goes up, their will be only two of us there if both of us are not doing something else like CAP or other activities we are involved with. 

On CAP HF, the system is broken beyond belief.  Most operators cant do anything but check into the nightly net, cant operate on the secondary or other region channels, heck most cant change the channel to or know the alternate channel for the wing or region!  There is no traffic handling, no message passing and no drills.  NO training.  All training is done VHF because thats were the people are at, GT, UDF, Vans, Repeaters etc.  Plus HF has not been used other than for show to the evaluators on any mission I have been on in the last 10 years.  As an MRO, it bothers me greatly to see the "mission base" or the comm shack/vehicle set up with a HF just for show.

[wuzafuzz]

With our focus on VHF I like arajca's thought about using hams for long haul comms.  Might be kind of handy when phones don't work.  Been there done that on recent missions.

Using hams for CAP long haul comms is NOT a suggestion. CAP has it's own hf system, although it does need more emphasis. These internet and email thing-a-ma-bobs have replaced it for routine communications. CAP should be using CAP hf for long haul comms.

Terribly sorry, I misread your post.  Didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

Having said that, HF in CAP barely exists.  There is no attention to it that I have seen.  Not in my squadron, not from my group, nor from my wing.  Hopefully I've missed something along the way.  I am interested in learning more about the HF side and applying that knowledge; that was part of the reason I joined CAP.

[arajca]

Having said that, HF in CAP barely exists.  There is no attention to it that I have seen.  Not in my squadron, not from my group, nor from my wing.  Hopefully I've missed something along the way.  I am interested in learning more about the HF side and applying that knowledge; that was part of the reason I joined CAP.

No arguments there. Supposedly, there are plans to increase hf training in the new comm training plan (that is five months behind schedule, with no implementation in sight!). I'm trying to figure out how to do an exercise (albit, a simple one) using both hf and vhf, without using phones/email, including at least one formal message.

[♠SARKID♠]

Having said that, HF in CAP barely exists.  There is no attention to it that I have seen.  Not in my squadron, not from my group, nor from my wing.  Hopefully I've missed something along the way.  I am interested in learning more about the HF side and applying that knowledge; that was part of the reason I joined CAP.

As it stands I teach HF far more than I do VHF.  You learn so much more about communications that way.  Using VHF is often so easy that its like talking on the phone, and the technical stuff is just taken for granted.  But with HF, the situation is rarely if ever ideal so you have to know what you're doing so you can take steps to rectify it (be it switch antennas, frequency, etc).

That said, if CAP members had the motivation to actually learn a bit about HF, the topic of hams wouldn't be on the table.  Theres nothing a Ham can do that CAP can't on its own frequencies.

[JoeTomasone]

That said, if CAP members had the motivation to actually learn a bit about HF, the topic of hams wouldn't be on the table.  Theres nothing a Ham can do that CAP can't on its own frequencies.

Ahh, negative, Cadet.   We can't do digital modes, and there's a ton that hams can do in that regard that we cannot as CAP.   Winlink (http://www.winlink.org) is just the tip of that iceberg, along with AMTOR, packet, RTTY, etc, etc, ad nauseum.   We cannot switch bands to adjust to changing conditions (OK, we can go from one band to the other, but that's it -- and we have nothing like 20m).    We cannot phone patch, nor can we we do CW.    We are stuck with USB -- no LSB or AM operation.  We cannot move throughout a band to avoid interference with other communications since we are effectively channelized by Region.   

No, our radio communications options are vastly inferior to ham communications -- by our own design (aka CAPR 100-1).

[isuhawkeye]

PSK-31 and other digital HF modes are widely considered the future of long distance emergency communications

[Eclipse]

The math on this is easy.

What is the effective range of VHF? (including use of repeaters and high birds)

What is the range of HF?

What is the scope of the majority of CAP's largest missions?

When you're done carrying the 4, you'll see why HF is a non-starter in CAP.

Hint: Comms are for ES.  Period.  We aren't the dial tone of the US during Armageddon anymore (if we ever were).  CAP mission bases rarely if ever control assets outside VHF range, and rarer still do telephones not work.   Since we don't have HF in the COV's and aircraft, its not much use to the field assets, ergo...

[JoeTomasone]

Hint: Comms are for ES.  Period.  We aren't the dial tone of the US during Armageddon anymore (if we ever were).  CAP mission bases rarely if ever control assets outside VHF range, and rarer still do telephones not work.   Since we don't have HF in the COV's and aircraft, its not much use to the field assets, ergo...

When Florida gets whacked with our next hurricane and the Wing Commander needs to communicate with Region HQ, VHF won't cut it.    Likewise Wing to Group comms in the vast majority of cases.

HF is needed, but VHF is crucial.

[Eclipse]

Hint: Comms are for ES.  Period.  We aren't the dial tone of the US during Armageddon anymore (if we ever were).  CAP mission bases rarely if ever control assets outside VHF range, and rarer still do telephones not work.   Since we don't have HF in the COV's and aircraft, its not much use to the field assets, ergo...

When Florida gets whacked with our next hurricane and the Wing Commander needs to communicate with Region HQ, VHF won't cut it.    Likewise Wing to Group comms in the vast majority of cases.

HF is needed, but VHF is crucial.

Not being from a place Mother Nature erases several times a year I can't disagree, but in my parts thats not a necessity - the HF equipment isn't even in a place that's accessible, and Wing doesn't have any HF capability.

If its not an ES response, whatever Wing needs can wait until the cel towers are back up.