Should the Safety Beacon be scaled back or discontinued?

Started by RiverAux, July 10, 2014, 09:01:22 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Live2Learn

#20
Here's a note that recently circulated in my Wing based on the sparse information on the two aircraft mishaps described in the December 2014 'Beacon.  It generated some useful discussion, and a followup note from the Wing LGM that expanded on the thoughts offered in the initial note.  Perhaps something like this might be a useful way to learn from mishaps.  Of course, all of this material is minus grounding in the actual events - so perhaps including in the Beacon discussion some actual mishap investigation material would be helpful

re: aircraft mishaps that occurred in Oct which were described in the December Beacon's mishap discussion.

Both mishaps are described as flat main gear tires resulting from tube failure upon landing.  It wasn't stated whether the aircraft were C172, C182, Gripps, or C206.  While neither event was attributed to pilot error, tube failure may have resulted from cumulative wear resulting from chronic low inflation.  In other words, a history of several individuals missing a critical pre-flight item that may, or may NOT be present on some aircraft pre-flight check lists. 

According to Goodyear Company, aviation tires are very susceptible to damage resulting from below recommended pressure.  Low pressure increases sidewall flex, resulting in potentially significant heat buildup during long taxis or during landing.  A few years ago a Goodyear Rep who spoke at the annual Mission Safety International/Moody Aviation safety stand down recommended junking tires that were allowed to run 10% or more below recommended values! 

FWIW, I have observed that tires on CAP aircraft are often under inflated by several pounds compared to recommended pressures in the POH.  It's not unusual for my handy tire pressure gage to find the tires on aircraft (CAP and otherwise) recently released from maintenance after 100 hour/annual with tire pressures below recommended values for the mains (on a C182 around 42 lbs) and nose (about 46 lbs).  In some cases during pre-flights I've found pressures on the main tires on C182 aircraft in the high 20's and low 30's... about 10-15 lbs (25-30%) below recommended.  Really low pressures seem to be more common during the winter, but I've found 10 psi under inflations in the summer as well.

Anyhow, some food for thought as we read about the misfortunes of other pilots.


The LGM comments follow:

The reason the tires get low after a time before or after the 100 hr/annual is because aircraft use rubber tubes inside the tire and by nature they will loose up to 4 lbs. a month.  Rubber is porous and the air leaks out through the tube itself.  Most  cars use tubeless tires that are synthetic and are not so porous thus do not loose air so fast.  Some maintenance people put nitrogen (same stuff used in the struts) in their tires because it does not have the moisture in it and the molecules are larger and seep less.

There are a lot of reasons for tube failure.

Under pressure.
Over pressure.
Wear beyond the tread of the tire.
Flat spots on the tire from locking the wheels on landing (excessive braking).
Hard landings
FOD on runway or taxi way

Use the recommended pressure and it should be adjusted for aircraft load, essential on larger aircraft.  It has an effect on braking and tire life.

Tires are not the only item that is missed.  Sloppy pre-flights have been around for a long time and it amazing that they have not caused as many accidents a they could.  They have caused some catastrophic accidents and have the potential to cause a lot more.  We have been doing a relatively good job in this arena but we have missed some important items over the years.  A good preflight requires really looking at the aircraft while reading the check sheet is imperative and standing back and looking at the overall condition of the aircraft will reduce accidents or lessen their impact.  It is the job of everyone around aircraft to see that the condition of the aircraft is OK for flight.  If you see a potential problem let the Pilot know he/she could have missed it.

Little problems lead to greater problems if not taken care of.  Keep up the good work.  We all could use improvement no matter how good you think you are, ATP to Student Pilot.  It is the job of anyone around aircraft to keep learning and keep safety in mind.

Private Investigator

Safety is what you put into it. My children did Little League and every year on opening day the paramedics took children to the hospital. My teams never had a serious injury. I saw plenty of unsafe activities by the other teams. The next year I got on the board and decided we will talk safety and put safety first. That year paramedic calls to Little League games, none. That year not a single child lost a front tooth. We had a few every year besides, broken ankles, dislocated shoulders and elbows.

Nobody says anything, somebody will get hurt. Just a reality check my friends.  8)

lordmonar

There is a big difference between not saying anything.....and getting hit over the head with asinine safety briefs, and asinine safety policy (the safety currency stuff).

   
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Live2Learn

Quote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2014, 01:55:09 AM
There is a big difference between not saying anything.....and getting hit over the head with asinine safety briefs, and asinine safety policy (the safety currency stuff).

True.  So, what are some good examples you've seen of safety programs that are helpful, useful, and effective?  Been a safety officer, and really grumbled about some stuff you've mentioned.  So I started using real time accidents, watch outs, current events (there are good safety lessons in most news feeds).  Those seemed to catch people's eye and hold their interest.  I've found that repeating the same saw just makes for a dull saw.  But making the message fit the groups interest usually connects in a way that gets retention.  What have you found that works?

lordmonar

Personally the basic 8 common safety items plush 2 focus items a months 5 minutes max is just about right.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

James Shaw

I have attached an old poster I used when I was doing Safety Consulting work, I highlighted my feelings about safety. I have begun to realize more and more that others don't necessarily have the same thoughts. This is not bad per say but a little disheartening at times. The hardest part about safety is trying to maintain that positive outlook. The best part about safety is represented by that little boy.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

lordmonar

Yep.....and that's the rub.    From a SAFETY point of view "You can never train too much.......",From my point of view you can.

Don't get me wrong....we need SE, we need Safety Training, we need to have safety briefings as part of our daily routine.  We don't need "safety compliance" as done by CAP.   We don't need to "waste" any more time on safety that is necessary.   

That is the end of my rant.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Eclipse

"Safety" is a fundamental part of organizational excellence and culture, and therefore is taken as a given by those who
adhere to the idea of doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do, regardless of who is looking.

"SAFETY!" is just corporate rhetoric used in place of organizational excellence to protect the organization >after<
something bad happens.

CAP doesn't know the difference, and its internally conflicting regulations, not to mention "good of the corps" "look the other
way" operating policies such as with medical professionals, severely impact any message trying to leak out of the training.
There's also the issue of nearly nonexistent expectations of performance and lack of will in regards to disciplinary actions
when serious violations occur (or are discovered and stopped before the mishap.

Neither the carrot nor the stick is used, and safety is "had with a click" - not surprising you get mostly deaf ears.

"That Others May Zoom"

James Shaw

Quote from: lordmonar on December 30, 2014, 04:55:25 PM
Yep.....and that's the rub.    From a SAFETY point of view "You can never train too much.......",From my point of view you can.

Don't get me wrong....we need SE, we need Safety Training, we need to have safety briefings as part of our daily routine.  We don't need "safety compliance" as done by CAP.   We don't need to "waste" any more time on safety that is necessary.   

That is the end of my rant.

I would have to agree to an extent. There is a point of diminishing return when it comes to any kind of system or training. I do not necessarily view it as a waste of time, but a waste of focus.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 30, 2014, 05:05:14 PM
"Safety" is a fundamental part of organizational excellence and culture, and therefore is taken as a given by those who adhere to the idea of doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do, regardless of who is looking.

This concept did not start to get a good footing until around 2008. This is when the "drive or push" around organizational safety really started. In my opinion we are still in an infancy stage with most organizations. You can have all the policies and programs you want and if you don't hold people accountable for their actions then the system is no good.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 30, 2014, 05:05:14 PM
"SAFETY!" is just corporate rhetoric used in place of organizational excellence to protect the organization >after< something bad happens.

Unfortunately you are correct on a large scale. Safety is rarely important until something happens and then everyone wants to talk about it and how important it is. Then they can say "We have a safety program in place and adamant about it, we have meetings every month and talk about it a lot. But do we truly grasp the concept and importance. This is very much so in the Manufacturing Environment and many non-profit organizations. They like the status quo because it is easy to deal with. Safety should be look at and addressed as a challenge but businesses are afraid to address real issue for fear of bad publicity and the perception of their failure.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 30, 2014, 05:05:14 PM
CAP doesn't know the difference, and its internally conflicting regulations, not to mention "good of the corps" "look the other way" operating policies such as with medical professionals, severely impact any message trying to leak out of the training. There's also the issue of nearly nonexistent expectations of performance and lack of will in regards to disciplinary actions when serious violations occur (or are discovered and stopped before the mishap.

You may be surprised that there are a lot of organizations that approach the subject in the same way. One of the senior managers from a Company that I audited wanted me to create what I call an "Area 51 Document", they found out they were getting Audited by a Governmental Agency and wanted me to "create" a training roster for a class I did not teach, it would be a repeat offense for them and would get heavily fined. I refused to do it and the Senior Manager sent me a very nasty and unprofessional email.

Quote from: Eclipse on December 30, 2014, 05:05:14 PM
Neither the carrot nor the stick is used, and safety is "had with a click" - not surprising you get mostly deaf ears.

You are unfortunately correct. I did a Safety Briefing at a Conference several years ago and everyone was excited about getting their safety done for their 15 minutes. When I held a Safety Breakout Session I had 1 person show up and was visited by the National Commander at the time. I was even offering "the carrot", free safety vests for each attendant and a Massive Trauma Kit worth $500. I had over $1500 worth of items that I was giving away and no one wanted to attend. I gave many of the vests to a new Squadron that was forming.

I have offered up many suggestions and things I felt we could do to maybe spark some interest in Safety.

1) Safety News Letters for the Wing that offered a more specific perspective and explanation as suggested earlier about Root Cause Analysis and Hazard Mitigation
2) For the uniform and bling folks: A Mission Safety Officer Badge similar to the Ground Team and IC Badge.
3) Safety Award with Criteria
4) Pocket Safety and ORM Cards
5) Free GAP Analysis of Safety Surveys
6) Encampment Emergency Response Plan Template

My Commanders at the time were great and supportive....they died above that

Passion does not equal progress when progress requires self-assessment.....and we don't want the results.

Safe to say "Rant over I am done"......pun intended
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

FlyNavy

I personally feel that the CAP Safety Beacon should be continued for several reasons:

1) For an organization to be so devoted to safety, it needs to continue to have an official publication; The Beacon is just that.

2) Forums are a great tool to discuss thoughts, ideas, etc...but they are also very convoluded at the same time. They also have the ability to present too much information at once. The Safety Beacon, although rudimentary, is an effective way to bring into focus a topic for discussion amongst all CAP members.

There are many items in CAP that may seem obsolete, but they are there for a good reason. I feel that although the safety beacon is "oldie", it is still a "goodie"
Pilot, Oklahoma Wing
Qualifications: MP, MO, MS, AOBD, MSA, MRO, MSO, TMP, UDF, WS


Live2Learn

Quote from: FlyNavy on December 31, 2014, 04:06:40 AM
I personally feel that the CAP Safety Beacon should be continued for several reasons:

1) For an organization to be so devoted to safety, it needs to continue to have an official publication; The Beacon is just that.

2) Forums are a great tool to discuss thoughts, ideas, etc...but they are also very convoluded at the same time. They also have the ability to present too much information at once. The Safety Beacon, although rudimentary, is an effective way to bring into focus a topic for discussion amongst all CAP members.

There are many items in CAP that may seem obsolete, but they are there for a good reason. I feel that although the safety beacon is "oldie", it is still a "goodie"

WELL SAID.

James Shaw

Quote from: FlyNavy on December 31, 2014, 04:06:40 AM
I personally feel that the CAP Safety Beacon should be continued for several reasons:

1) For an organization to be so devoted to safety, it needs to continue to have an official publication; The Beacon is just that.

2) Forums are a great tool to discuss thoughts, ideas, etc...but they are also very convoluded at the same time. They also have the ability to present too much information at once. The Safety Beacon, although rudimentary, is an effective way to bring into focus a topic for discussion amongst all CAP members.

There are many items in CAP that may seem obsolete, but they are there for a good reason. I feel that although the safety beacon is "oldie", it is still a "goodie"

Agree as well.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

Private Investigator

Quote from: capmando on December 30, 2014, 04:48:27 PM
I have attached an old poster I used when I was doing Safety Consulting work, I highlighted my feelings about safety. I have begun to realize more and more that others don't necessarily have the same thoughts. This is not bad per say but a little disheartening at times. The hardest part about safety is trying to maintain that positive outlook. The best part about safety is represented by that little boy.

Jim, that gets peoples attention. I would like to place that at my job site.   :clap:

Private Investigator

Quote from: FlyNavy on December 31, 2014, 04:06:40 AM
I personally feel that the CAP Safety Beacon should be continued for several reasons:

1) For an organization to be so devoted to safety, it needs to continue to have an official publication; The Beacon is just that.

2) Forums are a great tool to discuss thoughts, ideas, etc...but they are also very convoluded at the same time. They also have the ability to present too much information at once. The Safety Beacon, although rudimentary, is an effective way to bring into focus a topic for discussion amongst all CAP members.

There are many items in CAP that may seem obsolete, but they are there for a good reason. I feel that although the safety beacon is "oldie", it is still a "goodie"

I concur and welcome to CAP Talk. Very awesome first post   :clap:

James Shaw

Quote from: Private Investigator on December 31, 2014, 10:31:56 AM
Quote from: capmando on December 30, 2014, 04:48:27 PM
I have attached an old poster I used when I was doing Safety Consulting work, I highlighted my feelings about safety. I have begun to realize more and more that others don't necessarily have the same thoughts. This is not bad per say but a little disheartening at times. The hardest part about safety is trying to maintain that positive outlook. The best part about safety is represented by that little boy.

Jim, that gets peoples attention. I would like to place that at my job site.   :clap:

I can post the pic when I get to work. I will take my info off.
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

James Shaw

Quote from: Private Investigator on December 31, 2014, 10:31:56 AM
Quote from: capmando on December 30, 2014, 04:48:27 PM
I have attached an old poster I used when I was doing Safety Consulting work, I highlighted my feelings about safety. I have begun to realize more and more that others don't necessarily have the same thoughts. This is not bad per say but a little disheartening at times. The hardest part about safety is trying to maintain that positive outlook. The best part about safety is represented by that little boy.

Jim, that gets peoples attention. I would like to place that at my job site.   :clap:

Here you go.

[attachment deleted by admin]
Jim Shaw
USN: 1987-1992
GANG: 1996-1998
CAP:2000 - Current
USCGA:2018 - Current
SGAUS: 2017 - Current

Private Investigator

Quote from: capmando on December 31, 2014, 01:36:19 PM
Quote from: Private Investigator on December 31, 2014, 10:31:56 AM
Quote from: capmando on December 30, 2014, 04:48:27 PM
I have attached an old poster I used when I was doing Safety Consulting work, I highlighted my feelings about safety. I have begun to realize more and more that others don't necessarily have the same thoughts. This is not bad per say but a little disheartening at times. The hardest part about safety is trying to maintain that positive outlook. The best part about safety is represented by that little boy.

Jim, that gets peoples attention. I would like to place that at my job site.   :clap:

Here you go.

Thank you sir and have a great New Year.

JC004

*startled waking snore*  I'm sorry...what's going on in this thread?  I fell asleep when I saw "safety."   >:D

NIN

As I had said earlier, sometimes specific incident reports (sanitized of names, locations, etc) can help others when they read it and can put themselves into the circumstances or see similar circumstances in their specific operations.

The attached US Parachute Association incident report was in this month's issue of Parachutist Magazine. This particular incident occurred at my DZ in August, so I was fairly intimately familiar with it.

Even so, there were aspects of this incident, thru a 3rd party, dispassionate lens, that are far more salient 5 months later.  For example, most of us close to the incident never really got the full skinny on what was found with the gear.  The problem illustrated here can happen to ANYBODY if they're not paying attention to certain aspects of gear maintenance.

We need these kinds of summaries to help illustrate that the problems and circumstances we face in one part of the country (as it pertains to aircraft and ground ops) may not be unique and that things can bite us when we least expect it.


Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Live2Learn

Quote from: JC004 on January 01, 2015, 10:18:09 AM
*startled waking snore*  I'm sorry...what's going on in this thread?  I fell asleep when I saw "safety."   >:D

You can go back to sleep now.