The new SLS and CLC courses

[RiverAux]

As some have noted here, but I don't think many understand, SLS and CLC have been significantly retooled from the old days when they were basically mirror images of each other and just talked through the duties of each staff officer. 

Here is what the new SLS is:

1.   Preliminaries
   
1.1   Welcome to Squadron Leadership School      
   1.2   Course Critique & Graduation         
2.   Volunteer Service
Block Objective:  Understand the basic expectations associated with being a CAP officer; commit to serving as a staff officer
2.1   Officership & The Public Trust            
2.2   Introduction to Professional Development      

3.   The Role of the Squadron & Its Staff
Block Objective:  Develop an appreciation for the essential role squadrons play in CAP; acquire practical knowledge necessary for serving as a squadron staff officer.
   3.1   Squadrons: The Heart of CAP         
   3.2   Squadron Staff Officers         
   3.3   Individualized Training in Staff Specialties         

4.   Foundation for Leadership
Block Objective:  Comprehend the leadership attitudes and skills necessary for serving effectively as a squadron staff officer.
   4.1   Introduction to Leadership            4.2   The Staff Officer as Communicator         4.3   Creative Thinking & Problem Solving         

And this is the new CLC:

Lesson   2.1  Why CAP       
Lesson   2.2  Core Values in Action
Lesson   2.3  Resources at Work 
Lesson   2.4  Structure, Purpose &  Procedures Lesson   
2.5  The CAP/USAF Relationship
Lesson   3.1  Broadening Horizons
Lesson   3.2  Introduction to Teamwork
Lesson   3.3  The Heart of a Volunteer
Lesson   3.4  Management Principles 
Lesson   3.5  Planning & Decision Making
Lesson   3.6  Best Practices Lesson   3.7  Mentoring

Shouldn't the old fuddy duddies be exposed to this stuff?

[lordmonar]

Why mandate retaking the courses?

Courses like this are "supposed" to teach someone with little or no knowledge of the subject and get them up to speed.

If the subject changes those currently practicing in that subject area are expected to stay abreast of those changes.

Scientific knowledge changes very rapidly...but we don't tell professional chemists to go back to college because they re-wrote the Chem 101 syllabus.

Now if you would come up with some sort of "filler training" for those who already have SLS, CLC, etc....to help them keep abreast of those changes....that would be a horse of a different color.

[Eclipse]

I am of two minds on this.

The new curriculum is excellent, and is far from the "death by Powerpoint" (or worse)  that the old one was, so I strongly encourage my members to take the new classes, but it should not be required.

I was in favor of members doing the old way more than once, preferably at different venues, but not as a requirement.

[RiverAux]

Why mandate retaking the courses?

Courses like this are "supposed" to teach someone with little or no knowledge of the subject and get them up to speed.

My personal opinion is that it probably wouldn't be necessary to redo all of SLS as some of it is stuff that most experienced CAP officers should have picked up.  However, the CLC material would be new material for just about everybody. 

I would remind those of you voting not to redo either that the new courses are teaching the sort of thing that most people on CAPTalk whine about all the time, leadership, principles, etc. 

[SamFranklin]

In CAP, especially on this board, I believe people too often view ideas through a rules-based mindset. The original question was:   Should [veteran members] be exposed to the [new courses]?

Words like "requirement" and "mandate" were quickly introduced to the thread.

And as I write, 80% of voters are saying members "should not retake" either course.  I'm guessing those voters are NOT saying veteran members better stay away from the courses. Rather, they're probably saying they don't want to see graduates of the old courses "required" to attend the new courses.

Surely, no one would object if a veteran member stopped by SLS one day to see what the new program was all about.  And no one would object if a unit commander encouraged veteran members to voluntarily attend the revamped programs.

So here's my main point:  Isn't it funny that in discussing a VOLUNTEER organization, people quickly turn to a vocabulary of compliance? Am I mistaken in how this thread took a straightforward question and turned it into a policy issue, a Do This or You'll Be Punished issue?

No offense to those who have posted already, but I submit this thread as Exhibit A in why CAP-Talk (and to a lesser extent, CAP as a whole) has an understanding backward of volunteerism.

Nothing in CAP's professional development program is ever required. Ever.  But for those who participate in the program, CAP says thanks by presenting them with awards.  It's not the other way around.

[mikeylikey]

Are these new courses up on the web?  Am I just missing them??

I would love to see what

2.1   Officership & The Public Trust

is all about. 

[Short Field]

Yes, both are on eServices. 

I was the course director for both of the new courses this year and think they are great improvements over the previous courses.   With just a little time and effort, an instructor can look really good and get all the key points across.   Having said that, I watched two experienced members totally butcher their classes.   

Members should always have the option of re-attending any of the local courses we teach.  But do they need it?  It would depend on the person.  There was nothing new in the management stuff (several were direct take-offs of previous leadership and management classes I have taken) and the CAP stuff was fairly old hat if you have been active in your unit.

New members who haven't taken it - different story.

[Eclipse]

Also, define "required".

Its easy enough to make people redo things in ES because those quals expire as a matter of course, but grade and PD levels don't.

So what would you do with LIII / Majors? Demote them if they don't retake?  I suppose you could stall their LIV and Lt. Col., but not only is that gonna be a lead balloon, it won't mean much to those who already have clusters and birds.

What you'd wind up with is pressing hard (again) on the newer guys who probably just completed the class at the cost of a weekend.

As I said, it is what it is, encourage refreshers, but not require.

Another way to get the BTDT's involved is as instructors and directors, with encouragement for them to sit in on classes they are not teaching.  We had people do that in January.

[lordmonar]

Magoo....you must not read this board all that often.

Take a look at all the professional vs volunteer arguments that go on...and our number one complain is compliance with published regulations.

We may be volunteers but we still have regs and mandates and requirements.

We use mandates, regulations and requirments to maintain our professionalism.  (or we try to anyway).  So it is natural that we talk about "the rules" on a board that is about making our organisation better.

[dwb]

Are these new courses up on the web?

http://cap.gov/sls

and

http://cap.gov/clc

I'm leading the "Officership and the Public Trust" seminar at an upcoming SLS in my Wing.  It focuses a lot on the obligations of being in a taxpayer-funded militaryesque organization, on core values, and on accountability.

[RiverAux]

Folks, please note that I did not say anything about requiring people to retake these courses.  I asked whether they SHOULD take the new courses. 

[jimmydeanno]

I would highly recommend that people who took the old SLS and CLC take the new ones.  They are leaps and bounds above their predecessors.

One of the things that a lot of people complain about with the training of CAP SMs is that there isn't any "leadership training." Well, these courses take a HUGE leap forward in that and actually teach fundamentals of leadership, etc. at SLS and build on that curriculum in CLC.

The other advantage is that if gives you an opportunity to network with the new guys, make them feel welcome, etc. 

My favorite though is for the folks that had a break in service that started in 1980 and they're 'just getting back into things,' it lets them see where the organization is now so they can come back up to speed.

[SarDragon]

He has a very good point. I did SLS and CLC in 1989, and have forgotten most of it, due to 10 years of non-participation. I had the opportunity to teach part of an SLS, and was impressed by both the content and presentation format. There was a real, useable lesson guide. The slides were mostly bullets, to prompt detail from the instructor, and kick start some discussion.

[mikeylikey]

Is it a requirement somewhere that CLC has to be conducted at a Wings HQ?  Can a CLC be conducted anywhere in a Wing, as long as there are qualified people to instruct?  See in PAWG we all just received word that CLC will always be within an hour of Philadelphia at the Wing HQ.  That is great for everyone that lives on the Eastern side of PA.  However, when GAS reaches $4.00/ Gallon before summer arrives, those that live in Western PA will  have to drive the 5 hours to attend.  I see this as a hardship for many members.  Is anyone else in the same boat?

[mynetdude]

I don't know about CLC requirement locations, though ORWG is having CLC in Southern Oregon this year and SLS being in Bend this year. 

That being said, it sure doesn't look like that is the case. Last year or the year before (not sure) CLC was held north of the WG HQ so it seems they trade off where certain classes are held to accomodate various members in various parts of the state.

[SarDragon]

Is it a requirement somewhere that CLC has to be conducted at a Wings HQ?

No.

Can a CLC be conducted anywhere in a Wing, as long as there are qualified people to instruct?

Yes. We have them all over the state in CAWG. The primary problem lies in the funding. NHQ will only fund one SLS and one CLC per year. 

See in PAWG we all just received word that CLC will always be within an hour of Philadelphia at the Wing HQ.  That is great for everyone that lives on the Eastern side of PA.  However, when GAS reaches $4.00/ Gallon before summer arrives, those that live in Western PA will  have to drive the 5 hours to attend.  I see this as a hardship for many members.  Is anyone else in the same boat?

Even with the varied locations, the venue closest to my unit that I've seen is still over two hours away. I went last year because I had an opportunity to teach. If I have the opportunity this year, I'll do it again.

[Eclipse]

Yes. We have them all over the state in CAWG. The primary problem lies in the funding. NHQ will only fund one SLS and one CLC per year. 

You're not the first to say this.

Funding for what, exactly?  The materials are online, most units meet somewhere.

We've run 2 in a row with the only charge being $5 per person for two days worth of bagels and coffee in the morning.

[mynetdude]

Yes. We have them all over the state in CAWG. The primary problem lies in the funding. NHQ will only fund one SLS and one CLC per year. 

You're not the first to say this.

Funding for what, exactly?  The materials are online, most units meet somewhere.

We've run 2 in a row with the only charge being $5 per person for two days worth of bagels and coffee in the morning.

You're not the first person to ask this question either, $5/day isn't enough to cover everything that you're forgetting either.  $5/day only covers what WG does not reimburse the squadron for.

Squadrons have to pay for electricity including air conditioning and heat depending which time of the year you do it in.  Squadrons need to be able to pay for fuel to shuttle members to/from hotels to the the class (note I am not talking about airport shuttle, those are provided by most hotels these days anyhow).

and besides... a 2hr drive to an SLS/CLC class it not so much of an issue vs driving 4-8hrs+.  Bear in mind, the $5/day only covers the bare necessities needed to support the class, that does not cover electricity, water and climate control.

I don't know how much NHQ/WG pays back to the squadron for hosting an SLS or CLC, there is probably more... such as copy machine/paper use as well.

[Eclipse]

My point was that it should not cost the members ANYTHING but their time and transport for an SLS/CLC. Bring your lunch and learn something.

There should be duplication costs.
The new curriculum are primarily discussion based with no real need for the printed text.
You provide the participants the links, and if they are so inclined they can print them at home, or as many of our have done, bring them on a PDA or notebook.

Why would you need to shuttle people around?  Why can't they drive themselves?

As to operational costs for a facility, I'll grant you utilities are getting outrageous, but not at the level you are insinuating.  This type of activity is part and parcel with running an effective unit and should be accommodated in the budgeting - but even that is not required, because a LOT of units meet in places that do not charge for utilities, and I guarantee you that with w few phone calls you could find appropriate space for free.  Libraries are usually begging to have people use their meeting room.

If you choose to host the activity someplace nice, like a conference center, and choose to spend big money, that's fine, or even little money, whatever, but this idea you can't do anything without USAF or Wing money doesn't fly.

[mynetdude]

My point was that it should not cost the members ANYTHING but their time and transport for an SLS/CLC. Bring your lunch and learn something.

There should be duplication costs.
The new curriculum are primarily discussion based with no real need for the printed text.
You provide the participants the links, and if they are so inclined they can print them at home, or as many of our have done, bring them on a PDA or notebook.

Why would you need to shuttle people around?  Why can't they drive themselves?

As to operational costs for a facility, I'll grant you utilities are getting outrageous, but not at the level you are insinuating.  This type of activity is part and parcel with running an effective unit and should be accommodated in the budgeting - but even that is not required, because a LOT of units meet in places that do not charge for utilities, and I guarantee you that with w few phone calls you could find appropriate space for free.  Libraries are usually begging to have people use their meeting room.

If you choose to host the activity someplace nice, like a conference center, and choose to spend big money, that's fine, or even little money, whatever, but this idea you can't do anything without USAF or Wing money doesn't fly.

Well let me see... oh so you want someone to drive an invisible non usable vehicle to drive themselves around as if they brought their own car via an airplane? right... lets see how well that goes when they pay for a taxicab or a rental car that isn't needed and more effectively... they can pay for carpooling or call a member to come pick them up from the hotel... you STILL need transportation to/from the hotel especially if you are not from the area and you come in by air. I think that is a dense response as to "why can't they just drive themselves around"... sorry but I am not trying to be mean or pick a fight.

well yeah if you're lucky to meet at a facility that provides free utilities.  We have our own, it costs $150 (summer) -$300 (winter) /month depending on what time of the year... again would we rather use a confrence room or use our hangar? From a logistical standpoint, our hangar is more feasible.

True printing is really not a requirement, though we had only one instructor who wanted to copy/hand out slideshow notes to the class and to be honest... it was useless as it was too dark to read anyhow the way it came out on the copier.

Bring a lunch is always cool, I never have time for that anymore... but then I guess the cost of that is paying for lunch.  Either make time or pay the consequences... but thats not CAP's fault or your squadron or the folks you ride with.  Though I think its silly... when 99% of your class goes out for lunch and you are the only one who brought one... no thanks.

[Eclipse]

You don't need hotels and airplanes when you host things locally.

That's the whole idea.

You only need enough members to make it worth the time (and "worth the time" is subjective - 5 in each class makes for a nice discussion environment where everyone can participate, 10 each is about the limit where things go from discussion to lecture), and wing approval.

No one should have to fly to an SLS/CLC unless they want to, and then its their problem and nickel.

The first time you host one you only need two people who are Level III - one to direct and instruct the SLS, one the CLC (more is better but not required), next time you should have plenty, because everyone who did the CLC can instruct.

After that, its an annual thing, and people start to expect it, my Wing has done 4 per year the last two, inconveiintly located for everyone.

[mynetdude]

You don't need hotels and airplanes when you host things locally.

That's the whole idea.

You only need enough members to make it worth the time (and "worth the time" is subjective - 5 in each class makes for a nice discussion environment where everyone can participate, 10 each is about the limit where things go from discussion to lecture), and wing approval.

No one should have to fly to an SLS/CLC unless they want to, and then its their problem and nickel.

The first time you host one you only need two people who are Level III - one to direct and instruct the SLS, one the CLC (more is better but not required), next time you should have plenty, because everyone who did the CLC can instruct.

After that, its an annual thing, and people start to expect it, my Wing has done 4 per year the last two, inconveiintly located for everyone.

well if you're talking about hosting a local unit SLS thats fine... as soon as you open it up to wing then you have to worry about hotels... unless you plan on letting them spend the night in the hangar (which in theory is possible if you have a small enough group).

[Eclipse]

By definition they are always open to the Wing (and the whole country, we had members from 3 states last Spring), its just not >your< problem where they stay if they choose to avail the opportunity.

A lot of wings do one a year, or less, so yo have the panicked members due for promotion who put it off and are forced into the long drive.

We've spent a lot of effort to provide multiple opportunities on these things so they are not such a "big deal", you miss one, you're not done for the year.

[mynetdude]

I did mine as soon as the first opportunity became available and it was hosted right at my unit so I only had to drive home.

Of course CLC is available at my unit this year, I have no need to do CLC right now.  I will be on the IT staff though so I will be spending time driving. I won't need it next year because I will be ineligible for promotion anyway and then the following year I will be eligible so I don't mind waiting a bit to get promoted to getting my railroad tracks (captain) and at that time my membership will be questionable at that point.

[RiverAux]

I've never heard of wing funds paying for lodging for any wing training event.  Never had a charge for CLC or SLS in my wing.  Photocopies are made on the wings copier so are essentially "free" in that they are just a part of doing business.  I'd be interested in seeing how much the line item is that NHQ is supposedly sending towards wings for these classes. 

[brasda91]

Well let me see... oh so you want someone to drive an invisible non usable vehicle to drive themselves around as if they brought their own car via an airplane? right... lets see how well that goes when they pay for a taxicab or a rental car that isn't needed and more effectively... they can pay for carpooling or call a member to come pick them up from the hotel... you STILL need transportation to/from the hotel especially if you are not from the area and you come in by air. I think that is a dense response as to "why can't they just drive themselves around"... sorry but I am not trying to be mean or pick a fight.

Drive the squadron van.  Hopefully your squadron has the funds to pay for the fuel.

If you have pilot that would rather fly a rented 172 to where the SLS/CLC is being held, surely there would be someone locally that wouldn't mind driving by the airport and picking him/her up.

If you drive from out of town, you're going to have a hotel cost.  You recognize this fact and drive on.  You understand this is a part of the course and you don't gripe about it.

[mynetdude]

I've never heard of wing funds paying for lodging for any wing training event.  Never had a charge for CLC or SLS in my wing.  Photocopies are made on the wings copier so are essentially "free" in that they are just a part of doing business.  I'd be interested in seeing how much the line item is that NHQ is supposedly sending towards wings for these classes. 

never said they paid for lodging... it pays for fuel for shuttle needs of the members staying at hotels if they come to the area by air, bus or rail.  And it pays for other operating expenses such as electrical/water/sewer/etc.

[SarDragon]

From CAPR 50-17:

4-6. Squadron Leadership School (SLS).
c. Funding. Each fiscal year, CAP allocates funds for support of SLS. Contact NHQ CAP/ETP for the amount. When NHQ CAP/ETP receives a CAPF 11, CAP Senior Member Professional Development Program Director's Report (Attachment 6), from the SLS course director, signed by the wing commander, ETP mails a check to the wing commander. NOTE: Some wings may hold more than one SLS per year; however, only one SLS is funded.

5-3. Corporate Learning Course (CLC).
d. Funding. Each fiscal year, CAP allocates funds for support of CLCs. Contact NHQ CAP/ETP for the amount. When NHQ CAP/ETP receives a CAPF 11, CAP Senior Member Professional Development Program Director's Report (Attachment 6), from the CLC course director, signed by the wing commander, ETP mails a check to the wing commander. NOTE: Some wings may hold more than one CLC per year; however, only one CLC is funded.

This is my direct knowledge on the subject, having never been a director of either activity. You can contact the folks at NHQ for more details.

[Short Field]

Ours were all self-funded.  The local airport furnished the classroom.   I forget what we charged, between $10 to $15, to cover the coffee, donuts, and class handouts.  We provide a take-home binder with all the student guides plus a CD with all the course materals, CAP Regs, slides, etc.

[jimmydeanno]

I've directed an SLS, TLC and a CLC and taught at probably 10 over the past few years and have never had to charge a single dollar for any of them.  NHQ may allow for one 'funded' each year, but that doesn't mean that it actually costs anything to run.

Even if you have to pay rent for where you are, you are paying that no matter what - normal cost of doing business.  However, most squadrons don't pay anything for their locations and can accommodate a class of 15-20 without any issues, or you can find someone local that will let you use their facilities during the weekend, like a VFW - then you get some public awareness too.

I always investigate local lodging opportunities or even offer to have people stay with me.  IIRC the last time I had someone stay at a hotel for SLS we negotiated a $15.00 a night rate, that's pretty reasonable if you ask me - but he came from an entirely different region to go to SLS - to each their own.

For snacks and stuff, I never mandate a fee for them, I just pick them up and make it "by donation."  If someone wants something, fine, if not people usually donate more than the stuff costs anyway (ie; 2 bucks for a donut and small cup of coffee).  Lunches I offer to order in lunch and make it 'by donation' it's usually pizza or something.  The last TLC I directed it cost 40 dollars for pizza and drinks for 15 people.  Everyone was there, together, and the few people who brought their lunches didn't feel left out when everyone went out to eat (because they didn't).  Worked really well.

The best solution to avoiding personal costs for one of the courses is to hold one at your own squadron - even if it's unfunded.  The Wing is supposed to hold at least one per year but that doesn't mean you can't hold them yourself.

But I still think that people who have already taken the courses should check out the new ones.

YMMV.

[Eclipse]

I did mine as soon as the first opportunity became available and it was hosted right at my unit so I only had to drive home.

Of course CLC is available at my unit this year, I have no need to do CLC right now.  I will be on the IT staff though so I will be spending time driving. I won't need it next year because I will be ineligible for promotion anyway and then the following year I will be eligible so I don't mind waiting a bit to get promoted to getting my railroad tracks (captain) and at that time my membership will be questionable at that point.

If you're taking the time to be there, you should participate in the class, not serve on staff.

You may be surprised how quickly life gets in the way and then you'll be sorry you didn't take the time for your own needs.

[RogueLeader]

If you're taking the time to be there, you should participate in the class, not serve on staff.

You may be surprised how quickly life gets in the way and then you'll be sorry you didn't take the time for your own needs.

I'm instructing in 2 CLC classes, as well as being a student.

[mynetdude]

If you're taking the time to be there, you should participate in the class, not serve on staff.

You may be surprised how quickly life gets in the way and then you'll be sorry you didn't take the time for your own needs.

I'm instructing in 2 CLC classes, as well as being a student.

I didn't know you could be a student and instructor on the same class? There doesn't seem to be any regulation that says you can't do that either.

YMMV, I couldn't serve on the SLS staff and be a student at the same time. My commander wouldn't let me (since he was the course director anyhow). And since my involvement was very little on the staff, I didn't see why I couldn't but that didn't matter then.

[Camas]

CLC is available at my unit this year, I have no need to do CLC right now.  I will be on the IT staff - - - .

If you're taking the time to be there, you should participate in the class, not serve on staff. You may be surprised how quickly life gets in the way and then you'll be sorry you didn't take the time for your own needs.

Good advice. Yes, you can instruct and participate in the same course; I haven't seen anything in CAPR 50-17 stating otherwise.  But I'm personally not comfortable with using staff members who haven't been through the course yet.  Your unit commander didn't want you serving on your SLS staff and being a student at the same time.  I supported his decision.  And don't get the idea that just because you aren't up for a certain grade that you don't need the course; I took CLC as a 1st lieutenant.  Anytime an opportunity like this comes up, especially if it's at your squadron, you should jump at the chance.  Your CLC course director is a former director of cadet programs for your wing, he has 30 years of service to CAP and he's a current member of your unit.  What more do you want?

[Eclipse]

If you're taking the time to be there, you should participate in the class, not serve on staff.

You may be surprised how quickly life gets in the way and then you'll be sorry you didn't take the time for your own needs.

I'm instructing in 2 CLC classes, as well as being a student.

I didn't know you could be a student and instructor on the same class? There doesn't seem to be any regulation that says you can't do that either.

YMMV, I couldn't serve on the SLS staff and be a student at the same time. My commander wouldn't let me (since he was the course director anyhow). And since my involvement was very little on the staff, I didn't see why I couldn't but that didn't matter then.

You should not receive both instructor and participant credit for the same activity.  I don't know if that is explicitly spelled in the regs, but many wings, including my own, have official policies against that. 

This is primarily in reaction to situations where members were volunteering as instructors, reading 10 slides and then sitting in the staff lounge the rest of the weekend, which defeats the purpose.

Now, with that said, if you are an SME on a respective topic for an SLS or CLC in which you are a participant, there's no reason you can't lead a class and then sit back down, receiving only student credit.

Since the new curriculum is no longer position-focused (each class was a department), this is less necessary than before.  Most of the classes are generalized in theory or cross multiple departments, so a respective SME has less value.

BTW - in the exercise that discusses making decisions regarding how to allocate resources, THERE ARE NO CORRECT ANSWERS. It is entirely subjective with the intention that the decisions are based on need, reasoning, and backed up with information.  I have now directed two courses where the instructor listened to each group, all who had made difficult, appropriate choices, and then when they were all done proceeded to tell the class "That's great, but this is the REAL answer, we're an >AIR< patrol, therefore the money has to go to fixing the plane.  ((*sigh*))
For the most part, the majority of the discussions are intended to be subjective.

[Short Field]

And in the Planning And Decision Making Seminar, it is NOT about the survival gear - it is all about how you go about making your decisions in a group environment.  I saw one instructor who tried to turn it into a survival lesson.......

[RogueLeader]

If you're taking the time to be there, you should participate in the class, not serve on staff.

You may be surprised how quickly life gets in the way and then you'll be sorry you didn't take the time for your own needs.

I'm instructing in 2 CLC classes, as well as being a student.

I didn't know you could be a student and instructor on the same class? There doesn't seem to be any regulation that says you can't do that either.

YMMV, I couldn't serve on the SLS staff and be a student at the same time. My commander wouldn't let me (since he was the course director anyhow). And since my involvement was very little on the staff, I didn't see why I couldn't but that didn't matter then.

My commander said to make it happen. I can't find quite enough instructors, so I add my self.

[ßτε]

^Are you in charge of the CLC as well as being an instructor and a student?

I can't see how you would be able to do two of these well, let alone all three of them. If you have not been a student at CLC yet, that should be your primary task.

[arajca]

Believe it or not, if planned properly, the course director can sit around during the course - or be a student. BTDT.

[Short Field]

Depending on your background (training and experience), you may be the local (read "available") SME on a particular block of instruction.  

Besides, if you study and prepare enough to instruct a block, then you know it at least as well as the people you are instructing.  So having to stand in front of the seminar on one block and being able to sit through the others should not be an issue.  Nothing precludes you from getting credit for both.

I attended the CLC course as a student,.  I also taught a couple of blocks, plus a additional one on eServices so I got credit as serving on staff.  To top it off, I was also the Course Director.  Guess I was "triple-dipping".   I already had credit as a Course Director for SLS (no I didn't attend as a student but did as staff) but I did need credit for CLC and the only way to get it was to put on the CLC.

I am just logging time now to get my Wilson.  Should have it by the time I have 3 years, 3 months in CAP.  I started slow.  

[Capt Rivera]

Anyone have the "old" SLS materials, [digital format] or have a link to them?

[winterg]

My certification expires at the end of the month in ES unless I retake my NIMS courses.  What's the difference?  Wouldn't hurt to keep current but I would most likely make it an optional item.

[Eclipse]

There should be no requirement for those to retake the classes, but the curriculum and discussions are excellent, and so we should be encouraging our people to take the updated classes.

Regardless, our more seasoned members should be involved in an ongoing basis as staff or instructors, so they should be getting contact in that way.

The biggest single issue I see with the SLS/CLC program is that many states don't offer enough of them, so staff officers treat them like a PD-ticket punch and get exposed to the information and ideas too late for them to be of much use.

I encourage my people to get into an SLS as soon after joining as possible, and then be involved as staff from there.

[PHall]

SLS and CLC are both PME or Professional Military Education courses.
In the real military, PME courses are updated all the time, but you're not required to retake one just because it changed.

[EMT-83]

What NIMS courses expire?

[Eclipse]

What NIMS courses expire?

I think he's referring to the various requirements for ICS300/400/700/800 depending on your qualification level.

For example, everyone in ES has to take FEMA IS 700, and Branch Directors and higher have to take IS300.

ES ratings go inactive on 0101009 without the above, though what the practical reality of that is going to be has not been communicated downstream.

[winterg]

I had them all previously but my Wing is making me and a lot of others redo 100/200/400/700.  I think that's it.

[ol'fido]

I have as friend who is a Certified Professional Agronomist outside of CAP. A few years ago they changed the requirements to become a Agronomist. My friend dodn't lose his certification. He was grandfathered in. Why is it that in CAP you can be certified in something one day and not the next simply because they decide to change the rules? Shouldn't we be grandfathered in? GTL one day. Jack diddly the next? This is what frustrated and drives more people out of ES. SLS/CLC is the same thing. You took SLS and CLC in '88? Your done! Unless you want to be an instructor or director later on, you should not be required to take it just because they changed it.

[Eclipse]

You're not "jack diddly" - this is additional training requirement(s), far from what happened in the mid-90's, you don't lose all your taskings, you simply go out of currency until you take the respective test(s).

For the majority, GTL's & M's included, its a single online test - IS700 - hardly onerous. The IS300 has been the stickler for most, because in a lot of cases its a week-day in-residence, though there have been opportunities for weekend classes.

As far as "grandfathering" - in the mid-90's we had a much more serious situation - members who had been active for a long time given more than a calendar year to re-take the new 116/117 online tests, who couldn't be bothered, or stood on nonsense like "I've been doing this for 30 years and no one is going to tech me anything".  They lost everything because they wouldn't take a 15-minute test on subjects they should be intimately familiar with.

Many never got back into ES and complain to this day about it, despite the fact that it was their own fault for refusing to accepting an evolving situation with greater expectations.

[Capt Rivera]

Sorry but lets stay on topic... there other open discussions for our ES related thoughts/observations....

Thanks...

I know there are some information pack rats out there. Someone has to have the originals...

[Eclipse]

I actually have them, looks like slides and handouts - PM me for a link to some fairly large .zips

Nertz...new slides in the old dir.  I know I have them somewhere, will post when I do...

[ol'fido]

Yeah, I am jack diddly and I have been doing this for 30 years. It's not because I couldn't be bothered to take a test online. It's because they kept changing procedures and requirements.  At the time I stopped doing GT and ES, the preocedure dictated by wing to get a 101 and stay current was changing about every 6-8 weeks and we were changing ES officers at wing about every 12-16 weeks at that time. I don't mind playing ball but I do mind that every time I get on the ball, some little guy somewhere decides to dream up a new requirement to stay "current". And, as for IS-700 it looks a lot like the same stuff I saw in IS100/200 regurgitated with new slides. And, yes, I have taken it but it does not change one thing in how I would do my job at a mission. It's just another useless hoop to jump through.

Now back to what this thread was supposed tobe about. I took SLS as a cadet. I went back and did SLS/CLC as a senior. I have instructed at SLS/CLC and next year I will probably be a director. But I have seen nothing in all that time that leads me to believe that there is anything so earth-shaking about the new curriculum that we need to have people retake it ( even to teach at it). Again, another useless hoop.

[heliodoc]

I can agree with olefido on the SLS CLC thing

The I 100 thru 800 thing is a "new" requirement that CAP, in general, should have accomplished a long time ago with the responding agencies.  Many of those have completed it and many are straggling, LIKE CAP, an organization that wants "to do all" because we have all this and that

Now on to the CLC SLS..... as long as CAP is into online testing... then its time to stop think that online testing is some miracle tool to train people.  CLC, SLS, and UCC probably need to be done so everyone has a chance to interact with each other just like I 300 and I 400.

But  I have taken SLS and UCC and found really NO earthshattering reason why most of that can not be done online also, as long as ES is done online and the famous ACSC can be done online, why not put UCC, SLS, and CLC in the same lane.

Everyone can argue the interaction and "butt" time needed.  That is fine but to accuse folks "because I have been doing this for 30 years" argument doesn't hold water.   Some of CAP's folks must think that everyone has to contribute 110% on everything and then get accusatory to others  about what they do or do not do...

CAP reqs for recurrency are pretty lame at time and to retake SLS, CLC, and UCC a would be a complete waste of the members time.  Recurrency on these courses??  Right.  New Curriculum??  Is that like plagarizing other organizations leadership courses?  Do not tell me that CAP "doesn't do that" That I would call BS

[Eclipse]

That is fine but to accuse folks "because I have been doing this for 30 years" argument doesn't hold water.   

It doesn't hold water, not a drop, not even a hint of dampness.

Some of CAP's folks must think that everyone has to contribute 110% on everything and then get accusatory to others  about what they do or do not do...

And some folk go around thinking that just because they did a drive-by on a skillset they can forever wear a BTDT badge and not even consider the fact that technology and procedures change, they may have actually forgotten something, or Lord forbid, they might accidentally learn something.

Its also amazing that 99% of members are able to somehow negotiate the "mine field" of systems and personnel changes, yet some of the most vocal 1%'ers can't figure it out and then blame others for their losing quals.

You might also momentarily consider the idea that the reason we need experienced members to come back and teach the course isn't for them, its for the new guys.