Updated CAPR 35-5 released today (11 Aug 14)

Started by Salty, August 11, 2014, 03:21:34 PM

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JeffDG

Quote from: Eclipse on August 30, 2014, 05:02:55 PM
Quote from: JeffDG on August 30, 2014, 04:13:42 PM
Sometimes, regulations are vague on purpose, and the purpose is to give local commanders some discretion to command.

Sadly, that idea breaks down quickly with inconsistently trained commanders, 1100+ different agendas, and no imperative from higher HQ.

When the regulations are vague, that's a feature, not a bug.

Sometimes when you have different ways of doing things, people find better ways of doing it that others can learn from.

Unfortunately, the general trend in CAP is to dictate everything down from NHQ, stifling the opportunity to discover new and innovative ways of doing things.

Eclipse

Yeah, no.

That's the excuse people who can't write or enforce regulations properly use.
A standardized program has..."standards", not suggestions.

Also, you don't get to be "creative" until you have achieved a baseline level of performance
CAP hasn't seen in 20 some years.

Further to that, the time standardization really pays off, or hurts you, is when people
who haven't worked together are thrown together with no warning.  That's why the military
has standardized training and systems, because every Load Toad has been sitting in the
same classroom at Lackland, etc., etc.

You don't appoint people with no zero experience, provide them zero training or guidance,
and then further handicap them by inferring they can be "creative" with regulations and policies.
In >fact< exactly the opposite is why you have standards in the first place, so that poorly trained,
inexperienced, but well-meaning people with initiative can figure it out on their own.


"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Except the military does not have "standardized" training.

The military know that the guys in the field "know better" then the guys at HQ.

They not only expect leaders in the field to be creative.....they demand it.

Tech school provides a nice base.....but it does not even come close to making an Airman (that is airman with a BIG A...meaning all AFSCs and all Ranks) mission ready.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

The CyBorg is destroyed

Quote from: JeffDG on August 30, 2014, 04:13:42 PM
Sometimes, regulations are vague on purpose, and the purpose is to give local commanders some discretion to command.

Can you cite information for your assertion, JeffDG?

I was in the ANG, just like you were almost in the Canadian Forces (Navy, right?).  In the RealMilitary, they do not want to hand out promotions to those who are unready, unprepared, etc., because in a combat situation, an ineffective leader, whether NCO, warrant officer or commissioned officer, can be called upon to lead his/her charges in a combat situation.  And the stipulations that most GOOD commanders follow usually give germane reasoning as to WHY someone should or should not be promoted.

Of course, there are those who slip through the cracks.  To this day, it still boggles me what an incompetent DORK (silly word, I know) my MTI (team chief) was, especially when I saw so many others who were good leaders and teachers.  Of course, when you let a Senior Airman who has not been to Airman Leadership School and has the maturity level of a playground bully wear The Hat, you're bound to have bad things happen (I later found out from another former MTI that he "got into some trouble," not surprising).

CAP is not a combat organisation, nor do we wield the power over subordinates that an NCO/WO/CO does by virtue of the UCMJ.

For an organisation such as this to simply allow a "commander" to brick-wall a subordinate's career because "I don't like you," "your farts stink," "your politics are too left/right wing," etc., and not have to provide objective reasoning, says there is something fundamentally flawed with the way the organisation operates.

This is not quite the same, but I have served as a Testing Officer in quite a few instances.  Even though regulations specifically did not require me to, I always sat down with the cadet (this was in a cadet squadron) after the test, and gave them a written evaluation of how I believed they could improve, and on what I believed their strengths were.  I certainly worked hard to divorce my personal opinions of the cadet in question from said evaluation.

Of course, nobody can be completely objective, but I did the best I could.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Eclipse

Quote from: lordmonar on August 31, 2014, 03:15:47 AM
Except the military does not have "standardized" training.

You're right, of course.

If there is one place which is still a bastion of individuality, creativity, and free expression it's the military.
With no specific training regimes, no expectation of performance, and of course the "wear what you will"
attitude, it's the one place people can still "be who they are" with no one telling them what to do,
where to go, or how to do their jobs or operate the weapons systems and other equipment they
might need to defend this nation.

Seriously, if there is one place that CAP can help the military get over its reputation of nonchalance,
it's in structure and discipline, not to mention performance exceeding expectations.

"That Others May Zoom"

lordmonar

Quote from: Eclipse on August 31, 2014, 01:32:09 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on August 31, 2014, 03:15:47 AM
Except the military does not have "standardized" training.

You're right, of course.

If there is one place which is still a bastion of individuality, creativity, and free expression it's the military.
With no specific training regimes, no expectation of performance, and of course the "wear what you will"
attitude, it's the one place people can still "be who they are" with no one telling them what to do,
where to go, or how to do their jobs or operate the weapons systems and other equipment they
might need to defend this nation.

Seriously, if there is one place that CAP can help the military get over its reputation of nonchalance,
it's in structure and discipline, not to mention performance exceeding expectations.
Which one of us were in the military?
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Storm Chaser


MacGruff

Quote from: Eclipse on August 31, 2014, 01:32:09 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on August 31, 2014, 03:15:47 AM
Except the military does not have "standardized" training.

You're right, of course.

If there is one place which is still a bastion of individuality, creativity, and free expression it's the military.
With no specific training regimes, no expectation of performance, and of course the "wear what you will"
attitude, it's the one place people can still "be who they are" with no one telling them what to do,
where to go, or how to do their jobs or operate the weapons systems and other equipment they
might need to defend this nation.

Seriously, if there is one place that CAP can help the military get over its reputation of nonchalance,
it's in structure and discipline, not to mention performance exceeding expectations.


Love the Sarcasm, Eclipse. I spewed out my coffee on the monitor once I picked up on how not-serious you were being!

:D :D :D

Eclipse

#528
Quote from: lordmonar on August 31, 2014, 02:03:48 PM
Which one of us were in the military?

Based on your responses, especially lately, sometimes it is hard to tell...

It takes at least a year, many times longer, of extensive / intensive hands-on standards-based training
before any FNG, enlisted or officer, gets to start doing their job in the military (yeah, yeah, salutin' school,
then those people have degrees and are already essentially "trained" in at least their discipline).

And certainly no one is walking into a recruiter's office and walking out the same day with a fancy uniform
and a commander's badge, while that is a fairly common occurrence in CAP.

CAP provides ZERO baseline training or expectations of performance. CC's struggle for years sometimes
with no support or direction from higher HQ beyond a check-box SUI, and then are told "don't be so poor anymore"
and then are left to their own devices again.

Standardization is supposed to alleviate that situation, being "creative" makes it worse. Standardization and
inflexible standards provide security and confidence to inexperienced commanders who have nothing but the
text to guide them, and it alleviates the time wasted arguing about things that are ultimately ridiculous but keep coming up
because no one wil draw simple lines or enforce clear regulations.



"That Others May Zoom"

JeffDG

Quote from: lordmonar on August 31, 2014, 03:15:47 AM
Except the military does not have "standardized" training.

The military know that the guys in the field "know better" then the guys at HQ.

They not only expect leaders in the field to be creative.....they demand it.

Tech school provides a nice base.....but it does not even come close to making an Airman (that is airman with a BIG A...meaning all AFSCs and all Ranks) mission ready.

I remember reading "It Doesn't Take a Hero" back in the 90s.  Schwarzkopf's autobiography.

He spoke of two wars.  Vietnam, where you had the "Commander in the Sky", or folks back in the rear echelons micro-managing battles.  Telling individual squads and platoons where to go and whom to shoot. 

Then he talked about the first Gulf War.  He, literally, had the capability to watch individual units and tell some 2nd Lt where to go on the battlefield with his platoon.  However, he let his subordinate commanders know their job, and let them work out the details.  From the CENTCOM level to the corps level to the division level to the brigade level to the battalion to the company to the platoon to the squad, commanders and leaders at each level had the flexibility and the authority to carry out their missions as the local circumstances warranted.  The amount of discretion narrowed at each level, but ultimately, each individual soldier on the ground had the authority to carry out his mission.

Eclipse

#530
^ No argument, the key being "knowing your mission" (i.e. your job).

How can you seriously compare the allowance for creativity of someone who is highly trained and vetted,
a professional who does nothing but eat, sleep and work their job, with someone who has had >zero<
or little training just trying to do enough to keep the doors open, and in his spare time?

I've been in technology for 25+ years, I can smell the problem most times from 10 feet away, or figure it out
based on the description alone.  Compare that to your average geek squad guy who can't spell PC?

Who gets to be "creative" and who runs the script?

Any "creativity" in CAP should be coming from echelons higher then the units, and only >after< a baseline
of consistent proficiency has been achieved, and further, Unit 1's "creativity" can't come at the expense
of Unit's 2's, nor the SOP of the organization.

"Creativity" does not equal "reinvent the wheel every activity or mission" just because you don't like
the guy who invented the current wheel.

Otherwise you wind up with what many members >perceive< CAP to be, namely a "constantly moving target"
that is too complicated for the average volunteer to understand, much less keep up with.

Now, the reality of this is much more complicated, and for the most part CAP has been the "same" for 20 years,
but the lack of enforcement of standards and regs is the reason the perception exists.  Sprinkle on some
GOBN with people just making up the rules as they stand there, and "Bob's your uncle".

"That Others May Zoom"

ColonelJack

Quote from: JeffDG on August 31, 2014, 09:34:51 PM

I remember reading "It Doesn't Take a Hero" back in the 90s.  Schwarzkopf's autobiography.


I loved the part where Gen. Schwarzkopf was telling about an attack about to take place, with some bean-counter back at the Pentagon saying they had to wait because fuel funds had not yet been transferred from the Navy to the Army accounts (or something like that).  Stormin' Norman told that particular bean-counter where to go and what to do with himself when he got there and ordered the attack to proceed.

We need more guys like that these days.

Now, back to your topic ...

Jack
Jack Bagley, Ed. D.
Lt. Col., CAP (now inactive)
Gill Robb Wilson Award No. 1366, 29 Nov 1991
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
Honorary Admiral, Navy of the Republic of Molossia

Shuman 14

Quote from: Eclipse on August 31, 2014, 01:32:09 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on August 31, 2014, 03:15:47 AM
Except the military does not have "standardized" training.

You're right, of course.

If there is one place which is still a bastion of individuality, creativity, and free expression it's the military.
With no specific training regimes, no expectation of performance, and of course the "wear what you will"
attitude, it's the one place people can still "be who they are" with no one telling them what to do,
where to go, or how to do their jobs or operate the weapons systems and other equipment they
might need to defend this nation.

Seriously, if there is one place that CAP can help the military get over its reputation of nonchalance,
it's in structure and discipline, not to mention performance exceeding expectations.

;D
Joseph J. Clune
Lieutenant Colonel, Military Police

USMCR: 1990 - 1992                           USAR: 1993 - 1998, 2000 - 2003, 2005 - Present     CAP: 2013 - 2014, 2021 - Present
INARNG: 1992 - 1993, 1998 - 2000      Active Army: 2003 - 2005                                       USCGAux: 2004 - Present

The CyBorg is destroyed

Eclipse's little bit of philosophy should be etched into a stone marker and posted out front of CAP NHQ.
Exiled from GLR-MI-011

Bobble

FYE -

"The reason the American Army does so well in wartime, is that war is chaos, and the American Army practices it on a daily basis."

- from a WW2 era post-war debriefing of a German General

and this -

"One of the serious problems in planning the fight against American doctrine, is that the Americans do not read their manuals, nor do they feel any obligation to follow their doctrine..."

- from a Soviet Junior Lt's notebook

Cast in that light, CAP has achieved success.
R. Litzke, Capt, CAP
NER-NY-153

"Men WILL wear underpants."

Luis R. Ramos

#535
So lets watch re-runs of Stripes, Pvt Benjamin, Kellys Heroes, and Three Kings...

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Squadron Safety Officer
Squadron Communication Officer
Squadron Emergency Services Officer

PHall

Quote from: Luis R. Ramos on September 03, 2014, 04:09:09 AM
So lets watch re-runs of Stripes, Pvt Benjamin, Kellys Heroes, and Three Kings...

:clap:


Or just one episode of Sgt Bilko.

The CyBorg is destroyed

Exiled from GLR-MI-011