CAP NCO's

[Persona non grata]

HAAAAAAA

[Therapst]

IF we get NCO grades back, we should just K.I.S.S.

I remember an ancient ('60s era) book on Armed Forces insignia which included CAP enlisted/NCO, Warrant, and Officer grades.

It listed:

One stripe - Airman
Two stripes - Airman First Class
Three stripes - Sergeant
Three stripes/rocker - Staff Sergeant
Three stripes/two rockers - Technical Sergeant
Three stripes/three rockers - Master Sergeant

The book was in B/W so I don't know what colour the stripes were, but if we were to re-adopt them (with the prop device), silver-grey on AF Shade 84, that would look close to the AF, but different enough to be (the word I hate) "distinctive."

The stripes used at that time for CAP senior member "enlisted" grades were standard USAF stripes.  No distinctive CAP marks or colors.

[lordmonar]

By custom, not law.   Noah Webster's mangling revision of the English language had no force of law, and he didn't follow his line of thinking to its logical conclusion; or else we would not have the spellings of through, enough, etc.  Dancing With The Stars hottie Julianne Hough would automatically be Julianne Huff.

Would that not be Julian Huf? 

[BillB]

Looks like the stripes with prop and CAP is a way to get RM to forget about getting their same NCO grade in CAP. Why not just leave the stripes the way they have been since 1947.

[afgeo4]

Well, someone can tell them to drop the CAP from the stripes anyway.  Doesn't look right, and will look even funnier on a SSgt or TSgt.

I think it looks great!

So, sew on the "CAP" cloth cut-outs in a relative position above the E-2 through E-6 stripes.....Vanguard needs to sell more cloth cut-outs 

...just putting it out there

E-4 to E-6.... We are talking about NCOs.......... which by the way, if its about NCOs, an E-4 in the Air Force isn't an NCO position but in the USMC and Army it is... (Talking about CPL, not SPC) Whats the regs for that?

Just FYI, updated regs no longer authorize E-4 to retain NCO grade in CAP. Only E-5 through E-9 are now authorized, bringing the grades in line with those of the Air Force - SSgt, TSgt, MSgt, SMSgt and CMSgt.

I personally think the new chevrons are nice. I think they should just move the CAP lettering into the prop graphic (perhaps in background) and authorize removal of CAP cutouts on collars since the chevrons will be quite distinctive. Then authorize CAP enlisted to wear the USAF enlisted U.S. pins on service coats.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

Looks like the stripes with prop and CAP is a way to get RM to forget about getting their same NCO grade in CAP. Why not just leave the stripes the way they have been since 1947.

Next point: if the USAF stripes are to remain for NCO's, what in the name of all the worlds should stop CAP Officers from getting blue shoulder marks with "CAP," blue nameplates and hard rank back?  It's been shown that some dipstick can still troll for salutes with grey epaulettes so the colour doesn't matter!

It would NOT affect how CAP operates, and would heal some old wounds.

Case in point: the Canadian Government recently completed undoing the unpopular unification of their armed forces that took place in 1968.  It was a slow process to be sure:

early 1970's - Maritime Command (navy) gets its rank titles back (instead of having ships commanded by colonels).

mid '80s - Maritime Command and Air Command get their distinctive dark blue and blue-grey uniforms back (instead of all wearing green with only cap/collar dogs identifying the "element" a troop belongs to).

Last year - Maritime Command gets the Royal Navy "curl" back in their officer insignia.

This year:
http://www.airforce.forces.gc.ca/v2/nr-sp/index-eng.asp?id=12014

My point?  Defence Minister Peter MacKay says the restoration will have no impact on the way they do things, seconded by Lieutenant-General Andre Deschamps, head of the RCAF.

Can anyone logically, without conjecture, say why this...



is "better" than this...



but is not allowed, when the stripes, no different to the USAF, and certainly not (gagging) "distinctive" ARE?

[SarDragon]

Senior NCOs (E-7 to E-9) probably have enough leadership skills to run the average squadron.

How about the E-5s?

Not saying an individual would not have the skills, but a blanket assumption is just wrong.  I had too many E-7s work for mr that that had problems pouring liquid out of boots...

I don't think there is an expectation for people at the E-4 to E-6 level to have all the leadership skills needed to be a squadron commander. The AF requires at least an E-6 to be commander of an overseas unit, and that is only with the approval of the base commander. I was in that position as an E-6, and was, for a variety of reasons, over my head in the job. The fact that I had a good staff, and a small unit kept me out of trouble for the five months I was commander.

My own inadequacies aside, I think that it would take an exceptional junior NCO, with prior CAP experience, to be an effective squadron commander.

I do agree with the comment about E-7s and boots, and that's why they are merely E-7s, and not Gunnery Sergeants, Master Sergeants, Chief Petty Officers, etc.

A CPO is an E-7...Or are you saying they're not bright enough for the honor of being called a Navy Chief?

To refer to someone wearing a Chief's uniform as only an E-7 is a deserved insult. That means they managed to kiss enough ass to get promoted, without actually having the desired leadership qualities. It happens. I knew three in the second half of my career, and never once called them Chief, or referred to them as such. IMHO, and the opinion of others, they were E-6s drawing E-7 pay.

[LGM30GMCC]

The only reason I can say a distinctive difference for officer vs enlisted distinctiveness regarding insignia is the sheer amount of power an officer has in the US Military.

A 2d Lt on G-series orders can, potentially, take a stripe from all the way up to a MSgt, fine them half-months pay for 2 months (quite a bit of money), all without trial.

A MSgt cannot be on g-series orders and cannot so much as take a stripe from an Amn. Only an officer can administer NJP. While most 2d Lts will never have the need or opportunity to exercise that much power, it still is inherently there. Keep in mind, EVERY officer is appointed, eventually, by the president of the United States. A commission carries with it tremendous authority and responsibility.

Do not get me wrong. This has nothing to do with one being 'better' or 'more important' than another. Or one being more deserving of respect. Any 2d Lt who doesn't respect SNCOs has a serious attitude problem and needs to reevaluate their position in life. But the simple fact is, officer rank insignia represents a much greater level of power than an approximate equivalent (O-5[ish] vs E-8[ish]) (in terms of service-length)

*Note: I use power here meaning more legal authority, not referent power, or moral authority or whatnot.

[SarDragon]

But it just doesn't work that way in CAP. At all.

[Al Sayre]

Senior NCOs (E-7 to E-9) probably have enough leadership skills to run the average squadron.

How about the E-5s?

Not saying an individual would not have the skills, but a blanket assumption is just wrong.  I had too many E-7s work for mr that that had problems pouring liquid out of boots...

I don't think there is an expectation for people at the E-4 to E-6 level to have all the leadership skills needed to be a squadron commander. The AF requires at least an E-6 to be commander of an overseas unit, and that is only with the approval of the base commander. I was in that position as an E-6, and was, for a variety of reasons, over my head in the job. The fact that I had a good staff, and a small unit kept me out of trouble for the five months I was commander.

My own inadequacies aside, I think that it would take an exceptional junior NCO, with prior CAP experience, to be an effective squadron commander.

I do agree with the comment about E-7s and boots, and that's why they are merely E-7s, and not Gunnery Sergeants, Master Sergeants, Chief Petty Officers, etc.

A CPO is an E-7...Or are you saying they're not bright enough for the honor of being called a Navy Chief?

To refer to someone wearing a Chief's uniform as only an E-7 is a deserved insult. That means they managed to kiss enough ass to get promoted, without actually having the desired leadership qualities. It happens. I knew three in the second half of my career, and never once called them Chief, or referred to them as such. IMHO, and the opinion of others, they were E-6s drawing E-7 pay.

Only 3?  I can think of quite a few E-7's that probably would have been booted if it hadn't been for the hard working PO1's and PO2's doing their jobs for them...

[SarDragon]

Guess I got lucky. I did work for a few awesome Chief on my last three tours.

[Eclipse]

Can anyone logically, without conjecture, say why this...



is "better" than this...



but is not allowed, when the stripes, no different to the USAF, and certainly not (gagging) "distinctive" ARE?

The gray ones are on top?

Currently, the only adults wearing USAF stripes are active or former military, so that is likely the first reason, with the real reason being that
this affects so few people it is not a comparative issue in terms of our uniforms.

Otherwise, I have been steering clear of this last round of discussion because it is pointless. 

Repeating now, in its current form as a fully volunteer organization with no caste-like separation of the "doers" from the "managers", and where slick-sleeves can command squadrons, while Colonels empty trash cans after meetings (helped one do just that after the Eval), there can never be an NCO system in CAP that is anything but an indicator of longevity and professional development, and therefore the time and effort to implement one would be a waste, as well as a fundamental misunderstanding of the NCO / Officer relationship.

[Hawk200]

I wasn't sure which thread to post this, but this one had the most recent activity regarding CAP NCO's. I like the stripes sported by this CAP NCO at this most recent AFSA (50th) anniversary (of course General Schwartz was there, as well as a few others)!

Not intending to turn it into a uniform thread, but I don't like the "font" of the "CAP" on the stripes, it could look better, although I have to admit that the TriProp actually looks OK.

I find it a bit annoying that it has "CAP" on the stripes and on the collar. How many times do you need to put "CAP" on the uniform? Yeesh.

My suggestion: The stripes, as they are configured, but in the same grey collar as the officer's epaulets on blues and grey/whites. Eliminate the "C.A.P." collar brass, it doesn't need to appear on the uniform four times.

Of course, just to make it easy and "unbusy" the other uniforms a bit, eliminate "CAP" cloth cutouts on the BDU for SMWOG and CAP NCO's. Of course, for aesthetic purposes, the utilities would look best with a blue version.

That's the aesthetics addressed. As has been pointed out before, the validity of an NCO program must be determined first. If they have no purpose, then there is little point in creating such a grade bracket in the first place.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

But it just doesn't work that way in CAP. At all.

Nor did it ever - not with blue, sickening maroon or slightly-better grey epaulettes.  Nor do the nearly-identical-to-their-parent-service insignia worn by NSCC officers or ACA officers.

Nor do CAP NCO's now, or did they ever, have the authority that real-world military NCO's have.

My Army-veteran dad told me "We listened to butter bar six-month-wonder second looies because we had to...we listened to SFC's, Master Sergeants and above all the First Sergeant because they really ran things."

A CAP NCO has never had that kind of "pull."

[ZigZag911]

Back when we had active duty (later retired) USAF NCOs as LNCOs for the wings (before this silly "state director" title came into use) many, if not most of them were highly respected throughout the wings they served.

They were in fact (if not in actual rank) the wing command master chief, at least in terms of their impact, influence, and example.

[SarDragon]

Agreed. I worked downstairs from the MEWG LO office for a while, and they were great people. Smokey Burgess was the LNCO, and he was sharp.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I remember having an AD Major as LO and an AFRES SMSgt as LNCO.

They actually went around the squadrons and visited.

Those were the days...

[Eclipse]

Back when we had active duty (later retired) USAF NCOs as LNCOs for the wings (before this silly "state director" title came into use) many, if not most of them were highly respected throughout the wings they served.

They were in fact (if not in actual rank) the wing command master chief, at least in terms of their impact, influence, and example.

Um...

A large number if not all, the State Directors are current or recent military, and all the CAP-RAPs, by design, are Reservists, and occasionally a Guardsman.  Ours is a Lt. Col., and the three most active RAPs are a Lt. Col., Major, and MSgt, respectively.  They regularly visit all the unit in the state, oversee the property and vehicles, and proctor the Evals.  I'm not sure what more you could want, nor what difference having someone on AD would make to the situation.  They wouldn't be any more (or less) in the chain than an SD is.

I joined CAP near the beginning of the transition, and the first encampment I had any planning involvement in still dealt with the old program.  The gentlemen who was serving as the LNCO was so disconnected and abrupt in his dealings with me and others that we all thought he was AD and had gotten stuck with helping CAP as ADY.  It wasn't until the next year when the State Directors came into play that we found out he was full-time assigned to CAP and just not all that interested in being proactive.

Thankfully the SD we have had since then rocks, and is a strong, pro-active advocate of the program.  I know the others in my Region that I have met or dealt with, personally, have all had similar traits.

Certainly in my wing, anyway, the SD transition was something sorely needed.

I personally believe that the SD's should be much more involved in the operational aspects of the respective wings, and treated as partners instead of
afterthoughts, but that is a command prerogative of the respective Wing CC, and whether or not they are AD isn't going to make any difference in that respect.

[PHall]

Back when we had active duty (later retired) USAF NCOs as LNCOs for the wings (before this silly "state director" title came into use) many, if not most of them were highly respected throughout the wings they served.

They were in fact (if not in actual rank) the wing command master chief, at least in terms of their impact, influence, and example.

Um...

A large number if not all, the State Directors are current or recent military, and all the CAP-RAPs, by design, are Reservists, and occasionally a Guardsman.  Ours is a Lt. Col., and the three most active RAPs are a Lt. Col., Major, and MSgt, respectively.  They regularly visit all the unit in the state, oversee the property and vehicles, and proctor the Evals.  I'm not sure what more you could want, nor what difference having someone on AD would make to the situation.  They wouldn't be any more (or less) in the chain than an SD is.

I joined CAP near the beginning of the transition, and the first encampment I had any planning involvement in still dealt with the old program.  The gentlemen who was serving as the LNCO was so disconnected and abrupt in his dealings with me and others that we all thought he was AD and had gotten stuck with helping CAP as ADY.  It wasn't until the next year when the State Directors came into play that we found out he was full-time assigned to CAP and just not all that interested in being proactive.

Thankfully the SD we have had since then rocks, and is a strong, pro-active advocate of the program.  I know the others in my Region that I have met or dealt with, personally, have all had similar traits.

Certainly in my wing, anyway, the SD transition was something sorely needed.

I personally believe that the SD's should be much more involved in the operational aspects of the respective wings, and treated as partners instead of
afterthoughts, but that is a command prerogative of the respective Wing CC, and whether or not they are AD isn't going to make any difference in that respect.

Bob, the State Directors are all Retired military. It's a requirement to get the job.

[Spaceman3750]

Are we underlings allowed to invite the SD to things like SAREXs? They may or may not take up on it, but as long as we're allowed, I don't think it hurt to say "Mr. X, as you may already know [because they approved it], X squadron will be hosting an AF funded SAREX on Y date and I wanted to take a moment to personally invite you to join us at mission base." (unless, of course, you royally screw something up, but as long as your incident staff is good nothing too bad should happen...)