CAP NCO's

[Short Field]

If only a NCO was available, I would think they could command. I'd rather an experienced NCO running the show, than an officer who may or may not run the squadron correctly.

What makes you think just because a person was an NCO in the military, they could run the squadron correctly? 

[SarDragon]

If only a NCO was available, I would think they could command. I'd rather an experienced NCO running the show, than an officer who may or may not run the squadron correctly.

What makes you think just because a person was an NCO in the military, they could run the squadron correctly?

Senior NCOs (E-7 to E-9) probably have enough leadership skills to run the average squadron. They have likely supervised larger work centers, etc., and certainly understand chain of command, C&C, uniforms, etc., so all they really need is some good CAP indoctrination, and the same group of dedicated, competent staff that officer commanders depend on. I can point out several AD NCOs who appear to have successfully commanded CAP units, including a few members of CT, so it's not unheard of. They just happen to have been CAP officers, instead of CAP NCOs.

[DakRadz]

To wear stripes on CAP uniform, one must have been minimum of E-5 in the Active, Guard or Reserve Forces (not sure about SDF), correct, or not? 

SDF, absolutely not. Can I cite that? No. But absolutely not.

[arajca]

Since SDF do not fall into active duty military, Reserve, or National Guard, the do not qualify for CAP NCO grades.

The CAP grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve, or National Guard.

Since the reg capitalizes Reserve and National Guard, they are not the generic terms, but indicate specific organizations.

[SarDragon]

To wear stripes on CAP uniform, one must have been minimum of E-5 in the Active, Guard or Reserve Forces (not sure about SDF), correct, or not?

Where does it say E-5? Certainly not in CAPR 35-5.

6-2. Eligibility requirements.
a. Only those CAP members who are military or ex-military NCOs and do not wish to be considered for CAP officer grades may be appointed to a CAP NCO grade under provisions of this section. The CAP grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve, or National Guard.
b. The member must also have completed Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program.
6-3. Procedures. Members who meet the eligibility requirement outlined above may assume a CAP NCO grade equivalent to their military grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit commander (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card, or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient). The CAPF 2 will be annotated to reflect the NCO grade authorized and forward this form to National Headquarters for recording. Forms may be submitted by e-mail, fax or U.S. Postal Service as outlined in paragraph 1-8c(1) above. The member is authorized to wear the grade on the CAP uniform as soon as verification of the military NCO grade is received.

As noted elsewhere, members of the Navy, Marine Corps, and Army, can be NCOs at E-4.

[ßτε]

To wear stripes on CAP uniform, one must have been minimum of E-5 in the Active, Guard or Reserve Forces (not sure about SDF), correct, or not?

Where does it say E-5? Certainly not in CAPR 35-5.

6-2. Eligibility requirements.
a. Only those CAP members who are military or ex-military NCOs and do not wish to be considered for CAP officer grades may be appointed to a CAP NCO grade under provisions of this section. The CAP grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve, or National Guard.
b. The member must also have completed Level I of the Senior Member Professional Development Program.
6-3. Procedures. Members who meet the eligibility requirement outlined above may assume a CAP NCO grade equivalent to their military grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit commander (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card, or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient). The CAPF 2 will be annotated to reflect the NCO grade authorized and forward this form to National Headquarters for recording. Forms may be submitted by e-mail, fax or U.S. Postal Service as outlined in paragraph 1-8c(1) above. The member is authorized to wear the grade on the CAP uniform as soon as verification of the military NCO grade is received.

As noted elsewhere, members of the Navy, Marine Corps, and Army, can be NCOs at E-4.

CAPR 35-5 lists the CAP NCO grades in 1-3c:

c. CAP NCO grades are:
    (1) Chief Master Sergeant (CMSgt)
    (2) Senior Master Sergeant (SMSgt)
    (3) Master Sergeant (MSgt)
    (4) Technical Sergeant (TSgt)
    (5) Staff Sergeant (SSgt)

Note that none of those are equivalent to E-4.

[JC004]

This is interesting.  Where did I previously see a CAP "Sergeant" (senior airman) listed?  That stood out to me because it was different than the Air Force. 

[DakRadz]

This is interesting.  Where did I previously see a CAP "Sergeant" (senior airman) listed?  That stood out to me because it was different than the Air Force.

I too. That's the basis of this entire argument in the latter half of the thread, I believe.

[AirDX]

This is interesting.  Where did I previously see a CAP "Sergeant" (senior airman) listed?  That stood out to me because it was different than the Air Force.

I too. That's the basis of this entire argument in the latter half of the thread, I believe.

On the Form 2.  Says Sgt, TSgt, MSgt...  Omits the first "S" from SSgt, which I think is a typo that should've, could've, been fixed long ago.

[MIKE]

The previous edition of  CAPR 35-5 listed Sergeant (E-4). 

[JC004]

The previous edition of  CAPR 35-5 listed Sergeant (E-4).

That is where I saw it, then.  I would have noticed a typo.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

The previous edition of  CAPR 35-5 listed Sergeant (E-4).

Wouldn't it have also shown the E-1 through E-4 (SrA) with the blue star, and E-4 (Sgt) and up with the silver star, in keeping with the insignia of that era?

[Ford73Diesel]

As noted elsewhere, members of the Navy, Marine Corps, and Army, can be NCOs at E-4.

E-4 in the Coast Guard is also considered an NCO. (If you count them )

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

E-4 in the Coast Guard is also considered an NCO. (If you count them )

Why would we not count our fifth Armed Service?

After all, we have to salute USCG commissioned and warrant officers...no reason to not extend courtesy to CG NCO's.

[flyboy53]

Since SDF do not fall into active duty military, Reserve, or National Guard, the do not qualify for CAP NCO grades.

WRONG!!!

State Defense or Guard forces originated with the National Guard Act of 1916. The Militia Act of 1917 authorized the Secretary of War to begin equipping them. Then in 1940, the Congress amended the National Defense Act of 1920, giving each state the right to organize a reserve of the National Guard when the National Guard was federalized. The current statutory authority is Title 32, Section 109 of U.S. Code.

There are now 19 divisions in just as many states with some like California actually having a State Guard Air Detachment that reports to the ANG.

Members of the State Guard generally have to meet the same promotion requirements as their National Guard counterparts. If the National Guard of a given state recognizes the rank structure of its SDF, you can bet that rank is recognized by the CAP. I know that in New York State, it is and has been.

[RiverAux]

Members of the State Guard generally have to meet the same promotion requirements as their National Guard counterparts.

Absolutely wrong.  As someone who follows SDFs pretty closely and who strongly supports the concept, I'm not aware of a single SDF that has the same promotion requirements as the National Guard.  There are quite a few that would appoint you to an officer or NCO rank based on civilian experience and education without any formal military training.  There are several that have less rigorous professional development systems than CAP.  On the other hand there are a couple with apparently strong system that CAP could learn from, but they are the exception. 

If the National Guard of a given state recognizes the rank structure of its SDF, you can bet that rank is recognized by the CAP. I know that in New York State, it is and has been.

Well, SDF rank is real military rank, but it isn't recognized as such in CAP regulations.  They pretty specifically refer to active duty, Reserve, and National Guard service when discussing CAP NCO promotions.  And the regs are even more specific about CAP recognizing SDF officer ranks when looking at CAP special appointments. 

Keep in mind I'm not saying that SDF officers shouldn't be saluted as they are real military officers -- CAP just doesn't recognize them as being worthy of a CAP special appointment.  Frankly, I'd have to agree with that given the wide variation in the quality of training in SDFs across the country. 

[SarDragon]

E-4 in the Coast Guard is also considered an NCO. (If you count them )

Why would we not count our fifth Armed Service?

After all, we have to salute USCG commissioned and warrant officers...no reason to not extend courtesy to CG NCO's.

Apologies. A gross error on my part. 

[RiverAux]

CAP just doesn't recognize them as being worthy of a CAP special appointment.  Frankly, I'd have to agree with that given the wide variation in the quality of training in SDFs across the country.

Though to be fair, I don't think we should be giving special appointments to former military officers or anyone else for that matter.  But, within the context of our current system I wouldn't be in favor of recognizing SDF ranks for those purposes. 

[Ford73Diesel]

E-4 in the Coast Guard is also considered an NCO. (If you count them )

Why would we not count our fifth Armed Service?

After all, we have to salute USCG commissioned and warrant officers...no reason to not extend courtesy to CG NCO's.

Apologies. A gross error on my part. 

No problems. As a Coastie, trust me- we are more than used to it. I've come to expect people to forget the CG. But that is another topic...

[Extremepredjudice]

E-4 in the Coast Guard is also considered an NCO. (If you count them )

Why would we not count our fifth Armed Service?

After all, we have to salute USCG commissioned and warrant officers...no reason to not extend courtesy to CG NCO's.

Apologies. A gross error on my part. 

No problems. As a Coastie, trust me- we are more than used to it. I've come to expect people to forget the CG. But that is another topic...

Whats coast guard?

At least you aren't coastie auxillary.