CAP NCO's

[Eclipse]

I was referring only to Lt's - you have to send the F2 to NHQ unless you are doing duty promotions online.

[flyboy53]

"you need to be a Major to go to NSC and that's a requirement for it? "

If an NCO's completed military leadership training (NCO Academy, etc) that counts.  In my squadron a SMSgt and myself are complete through NSC.

The '09 NSC had two chief master sergeants in attendance, so that requirement can be waived for senior NCOs.

CAP NCO's also wear "CAP" cutouts.

Also the blank CAP gray epaulets were designed for senior member NCO's to have their grade embroidered on as an alternative, even though the USAF doesn't do this anymore for NCOs, CAP regulations to my knowledge still allow it as an option though many just go with the sleeve insignia.

(That's what those blank gray epaulets are for, NOT for SMWOG).

This is another example of where 39-1 needs a major correction. The grey shoulder sleves were approved by the Air Force to distinguish CAP from the rest of the force. Because the Top 3 enlisted ranks were created to replace warrant officers as an enlisted management level, those ranks were permitted to be worn as shoulder sleve rank on everything except BDUs and dress jackets. Most senior NCOs these days, however, prefer the sleve rank.

Anyway, the blank shoulder sleves were intended for CAP SMWOG and could be worn on the dress jacket by NCOs. You don't embroider rank on them, because there are gray sleves with the proper NCO rank on them for the top three. For everyone else, you do what we used to do in the Air Force and that is place the metal pin-on rank there. If worn, however, there's no real need of CAP cutouts.

Furthermore, CAP senior member NCOs shouldn't be wearing CAP on the lapels of dress jackets when the Air Force required the "U.S." When the Air Force went back to the circled "U.S.," the CAP should have gotten permission to do the same, especially when all CAP NCOs are prior military enlisted.

[CAP Producer]

Anyway, the blank shoulder sleves were intended for CAP SMWOG

Cite please?

[Eclipse]

Anyway, the blank shoulder sleves were intended for CAP SMWOG

Cite please?

Both the Knowledgebase and Vanguard refer to those sleeves as for NCO's.  That will not be enough for some people here.

Since there is no mention of the sleeves in any form whatsoever in any CAP regulation, nor diagram or image, it is questionable how  anyone could support their wear one way or another.

[spacecommand]

The grey shoulder sleves were approved by the Air Force to distinguish CAP from the rest of the force. Because the Top 3 enlisted ranks were created to replace warrant officers as an enlisted management level, those ranks were permitted to be worn as shoulder sleve rank on everything except BDUs and dress jackets. Most senior NCOs these days, however, prefer the sleve rank.

Anyway, the blank shoulder sleves were intended for CAP SMWOG and could be worn on the dress jacket by NCOs. You don't embroider rank on them, because there are gray sleves with the proper NCO rank on them for the top three. For everyone else, you do what we used to do in the Air Force and that is place the metal pin-on rank there. If worn, however, there's no real need of CAP cutouts.

Furthermore, CAP senior member NCOs shouldn't be wearing CAP on the lapels of dress jackets when the Air Force required the "U.S." When the Air Force went back to the circled "U.S.," the CAP should have gotten permission to do the same, especially when all CAP NCOs are prior military enlisted.

1.  "Berry Boards" were adopted to distinguish CAP members, and many say this was more "punishment" because prior to berry boards, CAP wore metal rank insignia on the service jacket.  Berry colored sleeves were later changed to Gray, which was around the same time they changed to the New Style USAF uniform if I recall.

2. In regards to the USAF, effective Oct 1. 2006, shoulder boards are no longer worn by senior  NCOs (MSgts, SMSgts, and CMSgts).  However USAF uniform changes do not immediately reflect CAP uniform changes. So, in regards to CAP, nothing in 39-1 or the accompanied ICL's indicate "PIN ON" rank.  It only says "embroidered".  39-1 page 18.

3. Citation where it says the blank epaulets were intended for SMWOG.  Even if you can cite they were "intended for",  it does not prove they are for SMWOG.  However I can't find anything that says  they were even intended for.  39-1 states sleeves displaying "grade insignia" a SMWOG has no grade to display.  I think some of the blame goes to vanguard as well.  For a long time their description for it.  I noticed they had recently changed their description to say for NCO pin on rank, which is still incorrect, because 39-1 says embroidered not pin on.

4. Again what the USAF does with their uniform does not immediately nor does it always reflect onto how CAP wears the Uniform.  So just because the USAF wears "US" cutouts on their uniforms, does not mean NCOs in CAP have to as well.  Historically speaking, CAP cutouts were always worn on the USAF style uniform by everyone before the switch to the new style uniform.  Cadets today continue to wear CAP cutouts as well on the USAF uniform (both old and new style).

[lordmonar]

CAP NCOs can complete Level V. According to CAPR 50-17, Attch 2, any Armed Forces Senior NCO Academy can be used as equivalent for NSC.

In addition, Chiefs are eligible to attend NSC. Two Chiefs attended the 2009 college, with great success (one was a member of my seminar), and one returned on staff in 2010.

That is if you ever went to a SNCO academy.

If you are a CAP SSgt....you will always be a CAP SSgt.....and will never be able to go to NSC.   One of the many problems with the CAP NCO program.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Effectively, Pat, there is no NCO "Program" in CAP.

NCO rank is given as a courtesy to former NCO's who, for whatever reason, choose not to become officers.  Some NCO's seem to think that going from SMSgt to 2nd Lt. is a DEmotion. 

Incidentally, I was an Army SSG (E-6) when I picked up a gold bar.  I didn't think it was a demotion.  I was, in fact, feeling pretty darned good about finishing OCS.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

When an NCO finishes OCS, the Army gets one of the best Officers it will ever have. I had a butter bar for a PL for a year before I deployed to Iraq, he was an over payed private. He didn't have a tactical cell in his body, he couldn't read a map, he didn't even know how to use a compass.

Just a few weeks before we deployed we got a new PL, he was a prior E-6 11-B. We felt a huge weight lifted off of our shoulders. He felt that it was a bit of a demotion, but he didn't do it for the extra pay, he told us he did it for other soldiers, he knew that we needed someone for a PL that wasn't still a private. He was the best officer I ever met.

[Eclipse]

Effectively, Pat, there is no NCO "Program" in CAP.

NCO rank is given as a courtesy to former NCO's who, for whatever reason, choose not to become officers.  Some NCO's seem to think that going from SMSgt to 2nd Lt. is a DEmotion. 

Incidentally, I was an Army SSG (E-6) when I picked up a gold bar.  I didn't think it was a demotion.  I was, in fact, feeling pretty darned good about finishing OCS.

There is also no contingent of enlisted for an NCO to be concerned about regarding their health, welfare, and training.  Nationwide there
are probably less than 100 total (my wing has two).

[lordmonar]

Effectively, Pat, there is no NCO "Program" in CAP.

NCO rank is given as a courtesy to former NCO's who, for whatever reason, choose not to become officers.  Some NCO's seem to think that going from SMSgt to 2nd Lt. is a DEmotion. 

Incidentally, I was an Army SSG (E-6) when I picked up a gold bar.  I didn't think it was a demotion.  I was, in fact, feeling pretty darned good about finishing OCS.

I am with you there.  That is the OTHER problem with the CAP NCO "Program".

I am a retired USAF MSgt....and I see the CAP NCO program as a GOB Club.....this is not to say that the individuals in the NCO program are not good people and do good work....just that it is a closed, dead end program that does not really benifit CAP in any significant way.

[Ned]

There is also no contingent of enlisted for an NCO to be concerned about regarding their health, welfare, and training. 

Unless you count the thousands of SMWOGs.

[JohnKachenmeister]

WOG's, for the most part are in training to be officers.  They are not in the same boat as enlisted that have to learn a skill under the training guidance of a seasoned NCO.

[Eclipse]

There is also no contingent of enlisted for an NCO to be concerned about regarding their health, welfare, and training. 

Unless you count the thousands of SMWOGs.

As John says, not  the same thing, either in intention or practical reality..

[Ned]

As John says, not  the same thing, either in intention or practical reality..

Really?  No one has to be concerned with the health, welfare, and training of the SMWOGs??

Good to know.   

Why wouldn't a good NCO be a resource for all the non-officers in the unit (inlcuding cadets)?

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Maybe that would be a good point, make a temporary grade position of 1st SGT for one SM in each unit. When you are appointed as 1st SGT, you put that rank on, when you are done with that position, you  put your officer rank back on. Same idea with group and wing and national, have a Command CMSGT at group wing and region levels, and a CMSGT of CAP at national level. Their jobs will be the same as they would be in the USAF.

[arajca]

As John says, not  the same thing, either in intention or practical reality..

Really?  No one has to be concerned with the health, welfare, and training of the SMWOGs??

Good to know.   

PDO, CDS, CC? That is their job.

Why wouldn't a good NCO be a resource for all the non-officers in the unit (inlcuding cadets)?

Why wouldn't a CAP officer? What is so special about stripes that only those wearing them can be such a resource?

[arajca]

Maybe that would be a good point, make a temporary grade position of 1st SGT for one SM in each unit. When you are appointed as 1st SGT, you put that rank on, when you are done with that position, you  put your officer rank back on. Same idea with group and wing and national, have a Command CMSGT at group wing and region levels, and a CMSGT of CAP at national level. Their jobs will be the same as they would be in the USAF.

Get ready for screams of protest from NCO's if you do not appoint a military (or former) NCO to that role. Appointing someone who, may be a great CAP officer, has never served as a military NCO, will cause NCOs to have litters of kittens sideways.

[Ned]

  What is so special about stripes that only those wearing them can be such a resource?

Obviously CAP has successfully existed for a while without NCOs in every (or even most units).

But what is so special about officer insiginia that "only those wearing them can be an effective resource?"

The point is that military systems have existed for a couple of thousand years at this point, and universally employ both officers and NCOs within the organization.  Both are important and have their roles to play within the system.

Sure, you might be able to make a system work without NCOs, but why would you if you don't have to?  Think how much better it could work if we actually employed them in their natural functions.

For most of our history, CAP has used NCOs to fill key roles in our units.  If a casual observer were to spend much time reading CAPTalk, she/he might conclude that a lot of people don't think CAP in general (and CAP local units in particular) function as well today as they did "in the old days".

When we had more NCOs.

[JeffDG]

Out of curiosity, how many NCOs do we have nationwide?  I see one in my wing.

[RiverAux]

The last time numbers were given by NHQ it was about 50 (Fifty) in the entire country.