Hawk Mountain Ranger School

[NCRblues]

After looking up the law, it simply states that cervical collar devices should be utilized as little as possible by untrained personnel.  Spoke to soon, I was wrong my apologies.

[lordmonar]

disregard. 

[sarmed1]

In some misguided and pointless boyscoutish  plan developed in the 70's it goes something like this, and this was state wide, not just for the school:
Black pistol belt-Expert Ranger
Red Pistol Belt -Master Medic
White pistol belt everyone else

White scarf-Team Commander
Green scarf-first year medic
Red scarf-2nd year or fully qualified medic
Infantry Blue scarf-Team member
Orangescarf-Full staff member (school only)
Yello scarf-Junior staff member (school only)

The ascots were meant to be a means to rapidly identify team postions.  Now they are pretty much for show and and pretty much annoying.
Tabs were meant as a way to identify capability/skill sets, now they are a way to show your award....pointless, but we have a buttload of other awards to show accomplishment so ...

White laces were for parade (ie showing off) stolen from USAF SP's I imagine....also very silly.

I have to agree that there are a lot of silly practices that eat up valuable training time.  For exmple, years ago I pulled the medic students from the noon formation, it was 45 minutes more or less that they could be training... same goes for the team commanders course and the survival course.
There are split shchools of thought...one group says its a leadership lab excercise for cadets using SAR as the medium, another says its a SAR school, and yet another says its both (or more specifically why cant it be both)...no one really wants to pin it down to one or the other....SAR school you loose funding from cadet programs..... Leadership lab you loose ES funding.   Personally  I think the "wasted" resources and time wont go away....not until one group fully takes ownership.

mk

[Майор Хаткевич]

In the published newsletter posted above, what the heck does Captain Kee have over his Civil Air Patrol tape!?

[NCRblues]

That is the uh "ranger tab" 

[Майор Хаткевич]

Is that in the uh "CAPM 39-1"?

[sarmed1]

HMRS instructor tab.....its a little used rating for persons that have "expert" level knowledge in a minimum of 3 seperate skill areas/specialty certifications beneficial to the program but for what ever reason they dont pursue the "expert" rating...usually its something special that's considered a special examination test at the expert ranger rating.  Expert rangers can test expert candidates in most skills, a few though require a special sign off due to the in depth nature of the material; ie rope rescue requires NFPA 1006 cettification/Fire academy ropes instructor certification; firearms requires a NRA or military firearms instructor cert adn edible plants requires the examiners to know more than the number required for the basic test.... http://www.pawingcap.com/hawk/forms/InstructorTestingSheetMar2007.pdf
mk

[flyerthom]

I completely agree with the cadet.  He is the OP, nothing any of you have discussed has been even remotely related to the topic that he wanted to discuss. 

It has nothing to do with his skin being "so thin,"  it has to do with the lot of you not being able to keep your mouths shut and opinions to yourself. 

It has nothing to do with you talking about how much you dislike the program or hazing or whatever.  It's purpose was to:

he purpose of this forum post is to open up discussion about the upcoming 2010 HMRS winter & summer schools!

Meaning that those who are going can ask questions, get answers, etc.  The activity is going to happen, whether you like it or not.  Cadets are going to go, whether you like it or not. 

The next time you guys start a thread, I should just come in a **** all over it, completely destroying your thread and original intent. 

I am so glad that CAPTalk is not representative of the rest of the organization...

Thanks for that jimmydeanno. :clap:  I decided that online forums aren't for me.

Try your questions here: http://forums.cadetstuff.org/

[flyerthom]

Yep, I am one.  Doesn't change my opinion of them...

Means you haven't eaten enough doughnuts 

[flyerthom]

Well like most things.....it is usually the exceptions that stand out in most people's minds.

I would probably say that most HMRS grads are just normal CAP members who do their job well and move on.

We always get one or two people who come back with an "all that" attitude....and not just from HMRS....I've seen it from encampment as well.

Ego issues are easy to handle....you ignore them.  That is the meanest, dirtiest thing you can do to someone with and Ego problem.  You don't ask them to come out to help, you don't task them to be instructors, you don't let them wear their extra bling (unit CC's still retain the right to dictate head gear and NCSA patchs).

Having said all that......I like the idea of HMRS and will attend one of these days.

I'll go with you. I still owe Mark an adult beverage from our EMS days.

[fyrfitrmedic]

After looking up the law, it simply states that cervical collar devices should be utilized as little as possible by untrained personnel.  Spoke to soon, I was wrong my apologies.

No problem - I was genuinely curious, not seeking to take anyone to task 

[Rotorhead]

Is that in the uh "CAPM 39-1"?

Nope, but these people clearly feel they can ignore the regs.

Great thing to "teach," huh?

[capes]

I for one would actually like to go to Hawk one day.  I just can't get over the poor reputation that the school has.  I don't post much, but I lurk quite a bit.  it seems like once a year some Hawk "super ranger" thread gets started, and the general consensus is that, though a hoo-rah type of program, the attitude is just wrong there....  I just don't get that kind of "expert ranger" attitude, which will prevent me from ever wasting my time on that school.  Perhaps I shouldn't judge unless I actually go there. 

I have been to NESA a couple of times in a few of the different schools there, both as a cadet and as a senior member.  One of the things that impressed me was that the GSAR Commandant made a very specific point in his opening briefing (all three times I was there)  that graduating from NESA does NOT make you any type of expert.  That graduating from the school is only the beginning of one's training, and he encouraged people to learn more skills, and keep practicing the ones they gain.  To me, THAT seems like the right attitude.... - just my 2 cents

[JayT]

After looking up the law, it simply states that cervical collar devices should be utilized as little as possible by untrained personnel.  Spoke to soon, I was wrong my apologies.

No problem - I was genuinely curious, not seeking to take anyone to task 

This is kind of a double edged sword in my opinion. Do many CAP teams carry backboards and head blocks? What about other packaging equipment? Do they have any formal certification in there use?

Of course, I'm sure the medical instructors are skilled and experienced, but I don't know how comfortable I'd be with accepting care from a bunch of teenagers in camo.

[RedFox24]

I for one would actually like to go to Hawk one day.  I just can't get over the poor reputation that the school has.  I don't post much, but I lurk quite a bit.  it seems like once a year some Hawk "super ranger" thread gets started, and the general consensus is that, though a hoo-rah type of program, the attitude is just wrong there....  I just don't get that kind of "expert ranger" attitude, which will prevent me from ever wasting my time on that school.  Perhaps I shouldn't judge unless I actually go there. 

I have been to NESA a couple of times in a few of the different schools there, both as a cadet and as a senior member.  One of the things that impressed me was that the GSAR Commandant made a very specific point in his opening briefing (all three times I was there)  that graduating from NESA does NOT make you any type of expert.  That graduating from the school is only the beginning of one's training, and he encouraged people to learn more skills, and keep practicing the ones they gain.  To me, THAT seems like the right attitude.... - just my 2 cents

I think perception is everything with these type programs. 

I have not run into any "expert ranger" types that have been to Hawk in my years in the program, other than their little ranger tab thing that drives me nuts but I hear about "them" all the time.  I don't spend a lot of time around these people and I don't follow or fixate on the program because it doesn't interest me. 

However I will not consider going to NESA because I have run into the "super trooper" ego crap from members who have gone there and are on staff.  I get tired of the "NESA Speak" (all two and three letter abbreviations and "code" talk) and the attitude that if I haven't been and taken the blood oath that you can't do missions like those that have.  That being said, members who have been that I know and not on staff don't give off that attitude.  I did consider going quite a while back, but won't even think about it now.

Again those are the perceptions I get because of the people from those programs I have been associated with or worked with in CAP. 

I won't even start on the blue beanie bunch.................

[capes]

What do you mean by "NESA Speak"?

[lordmonar]

After looking up the law, it simply states that cervical collar devices should be utilized as little as possible by untrained personnel.  Spoke to soon, I was wrong my apologies.

No problem - I was genuinely curious, not seeking to take anyone to task 

This is kind of a double edged sword in my opinion. Do many CAP teams carry backboards and head blocks? What about other packaging equipment? Do they have any formal certification in there use?

Of course, I'm sure the medical instructors are skilled and experienced, but I don't know how comfortable I'd be with accepting care from a bunch of teenagers in camo.

Well that is one of my question....is there a formal certification for spinal injury management?  I know back in the day when I was a BSA lifeguard instructor and a Red Cross Lifeguard instructor we taught backboard, C-Collors and head blocks.  This was also taught in the old Advanced First Aid Course.

I don't really see this is as a very technical skill....and of course all first aid actions should take into account the access to professional medical care....but for back country first aid....with the right equipment....I think this is a vital skill that needs to be taught, especially if we are also teaching patient transport.

[JayT]

After looking up the law, it simply states that cervical collar devices should be utilized as little as possible by untrained personnel.  Spoke to soon, I was wrong my apologies.

No problem - I was genuinely curious, not seeking to take anyone to task 

This is kind of a double edged sword in my opinion. Do many CAP teams carry backboards and head blocks? What about other packaging equipment? Do they have any formal certification in there use?

Of course, I'm sure the medical instructors are skilled and experienced, but I don't know how comfortable I'd be with accepting care from a bunch of teenagers in camo.

Well that is one of my question....is there a formal certification for spinal injury management?  I know back in the day when I was a BSA lifeguard instructor and a Red Cross Lifeguard instructor we taught backboard, C-Collors and head blocks.  This was also taught in the old Advanced First Aid Course.

I don't really see this is as a very technical skill....and of course all first aid actions should take into account the access to professional medical care....but for back country first aid....with the right equipment....I think this is a vital skill that needs to be taught, especially if we are also teaching patient transport.

There's no certification, like there is for CPR or AED or First Aid, but it is certainly a skill thats taught to be performed in a specific way, and we are tested on that way at the Academy off of a New York State Skills Evaluation form.

Actually, we just got a protocol change in that allows clinicals to elect not to perform full spinal immbolization in certain cases (no distracting injury, no AMS or ETOH, witness to the accident, no signifiant MoI) to reduce the secondary complications of spinal immbolization or to reduce the cost for needless immbolization.

Don't take this the wrong way Major Harris, but what era of first aid at you talking about? In New York State at least, the old Red Cross Advanced First Aid course was the foundation of the first EMT courses.

[lordmonar]

I took ARC Advanced First Aid in 1977!

I was an instructor trainer for First Aid, CPR, Life Guarding, and Swimming from around 1989-1997.

As far as training to standards.....I don't know but would assume that HMRS uses a SQTR like training matrix to conduct and rewiew their training.

[RiverAux]

spinal immobilization is an EMT-B level skill here as well. Not part of the training in any DOT first responder class. 

Wrong.  It is part of the Brady 7th edition First Responder textbook, though it does mention that this might not be allowed for everyone.