Increased Safety Requirements For Cadet Activities

[BillB]

Can't sit down,  may be hit by a riding lawn mower, so there is risk

[notaNCO forever]

 To the bomb shelter everyone of course their might be toxic mold there.

In all seriousness I think it is good to be safety minded especially during summer activities. It is good to have cadets know about ORM, but encampments should have safety officers giving briefings and watching out for safety issues. What is most important at encampments is having an affective safety officer. My first position at an encampment was cadet safety officer and me and the senior member safety officer both took our jobs seriously, and we had only one incident at the basics checking in with being dehydrated and that was it. The next encampment we had a safety officer that did hardly anything and ended up with multiple incidents.

[Spike]

There is risk involved with everything.  Overloading Cadets with the huge amount of probabilities, may cause some to stop doing things out of fear of getting hurt.  Why should an Encampment Cadet focus on "did the Encampment Commander do a proper ORM for the mess hall, what are my risks if I walk in there". 

We all have to much to worry about everyday.  Common sense is all that is needed here.  Injuries are an inherent part of this type of training.

Adding more check-box, political agenda, hurry through training will not solve anything.  I am waiting patiently now for the statistics after these summer activities are over.  How will they compare to last years?  My guess......about the same.  That is unless they are improperly formulated and stacked to show this new training was a success.  How would we ever know?!?! 

[heliodoc]

Pretty soon CAP is going to get soooooooo  wrapped around the axle about its "safety program" that it will out pace itself out of existence as a cadet program...or is that the intent to eliminate the cadet program in favor of SM programs such as HLS missions??

Riddle me that!!! 

So keep it up CAP, issue EVERY cadet a CAP safety and first aid kit, a CAP helmet, and some CAP Vanguard sold bubble wrap, oh and by the way get that online CADET safety program up and running and MAKE sure it is done BFORE EVERY activity

Will this stuff ever cease to amaze me.

BITD 1974 era we went as cadets to rappel both as a CAP and out of CAP activity and we hung around already rappel masters from the US Army and what not

Today's cadet program is still pretty great, but we got "enuf" so called worried seniors and namby pamby NHQ staffers and lawyers running willy nilly around looking for the next crop of Form 78's and what not

What is wrong with you folks??  ORM and OPSEC are so screwy and a new project, that CAP NHQ is abusing it like todays kids using the word "AWESOME" to the extent of uselessness.

REALIZE that no matter how much safety and ORM is preached and reams of paper wriiten about and PowerPoints to die by...thing just may happen no matter the corporate culture!!

Label me anti program BUT I am a 1999 graduate of US Army Aviation Safety School ....a 2 week course...that described commanders intent and ORM and the reasons behind it and we appplied it every day in the US ARMY PRIOR to my class and everyday after.  Even after the course we knew the inherent dangers of our environment.

So we move on over to CAP... well it  is nice you got all those fancy Power Points and what not....But you GOT TO get over yourselves in thinking the fact that YOUR ORM in every corner is going to prevent ALL incidents with potential, incidents, accidents and any other future operation with cadets....

TIME for CAP to get more realistic...it is not alll lights and sireeeeeeens in CAP ...How about a controlled , level headed, way about doing it,, EH???

[Eclipse]

Helio, you know I love you man - always a constructive response without making accusations about how much CAP is messed up.

What's awesome about the above is the insinuation that the REST OF THE UNIVERSE hasn't changed at all, only CAP.

We used to build tank-like vehicles and stress driving skills, now we build crumple zones and stress crash survivability.  When I was a youngling it was a point of pride and honor to have the ability to avoid an accident, these days we've simply given up and accepted that accidents are inevitable.

Right or wrong?  That's for our alien overlords to decide a millennium from now, but don't pretend this is a CAP-specific issue.

The same stuff has been going on in the military, PD/FD, other similar programs for years.

[heliodoc]

Thanks Eclipse,

I did mention the inherent dangers of the military....

It is not a CAP specific issue but NHQ DOES have alot of folks going crazy about the safety stuff and it is reason for their gig

Rest of the world is constantly changing.......... CAP is only catching up with the ORM process and ALLLLL those buzzwords to keep themselves alive and relevant .....which ALL organizations do

CAP just needed to get on that ORM and safety bandwagon YEEEEEEEAAAARRRRRs ago when these were just startin to pick up

By the way, I still contribute to the organization, it still messed up, just like hanging around the military ...It's just a luv/hate thing. 

Thank God you are there to steer all the CAPtalkers.  'Cuz, you like me, have a lot say,don't we??

[NIN]

When I was a young junior enlisted lad,  while I was familiar with ORM and the matrices  and all that, the actual risk assessments and such were performed by my leadership for the particular activity, mission, training, whatever. 

It was not specifically my job as PV2 Ninness to say "Well, lets see, this is a night convoy movement and I've been up since 0345 when I had guard duty the night before.."  although it was my job to speak up when the convoy commander said "Did everybody get some rest?" or it was my job when the convoy commander said  "We'll be driving from 2200 to 0100, so you all should get a nap between this briefing and the convoy form up.." to go and actually get a nap.

Now, when I was SP4 Ninness, and  suddenly I'm signed for $4M of cargo helicopter and supervising a crew chief, I got a LOT more involved in the ORM process as a flight engineer.  Now I'm in with the pilots in the flight planning room helping fill out some of the relevant parts of the risk assessment worksheet.  "Is the crew experienced with the intended operation? Hmmm, I have about 50 hrs of night goggle time, my crew chief has about 2.5 hrs of night goggle.   Between us we have about 15 night goggle slingloads.. So yeah, we're experienced but not overly so.." and the check went in the box under "Medium" (or whatever it was) and we continued..   

But the ORM was not specifically my responsibility, nor should it have been.  Crew scheduling, my platoon sergeant, our company IP, etc, were all all involved in assigning the correct crew to the correct mission to get the ORM in line with the ability to execute.   But crew scheduling didn't do ORM: The IP did, and told crew scheduling "get me a crew with XX hours of night goggle slingload time.."   My platoon sergeant might have gotten a call "Who is your best night goggle slingload guy?" 

In other words: ORM, as executed, is a leadership thing, not a follower thing.  Sure, its OK to be familiar with the concepts, but at the end of the day, do you think its effective to have the most junior elements in the equation focused on the ORM, or on the accomplishment of the tasks at hand?

[swamprat86]

 :clap:

[RedFox24]

Ok folks please answer this:

Have to have the Essential Aerodynamis to participate in any special activity with planes.  Problem:  you cant get a certificate unless your a pilot and have a pilot certification #. 

So all the cadets who will get O flights who are trying to take the on line course cant pass it because they are not pilots.

Suggestions because there is no guidance coming out of NHQ on this one. 

[NIN]

In other wings where they have used this course for non-pilots, they have prepended 000 onto the member's CAPID # as a surrogate SSAN/ID #.

Shouldn't be using SSANs for ID purposes anymore anyway, even the government.

[RedFox24]

Email to NHQ on how non pilots are to complete AOPA Essential Aerodynamics for activities with planes. 

Still no response..................................

[heliodoc]

RedFox 24

I think there is an attachment earlier in the thread to llok at

But I did put a call in to ASF and the stated by using this link.....

http://www.aopa.org/asf/online_courses/

The typical entering of data of name, address and what not ensues..,,

Hopefully that works...


You go, buoooooooooooooooooy

[PA Guy]

Email to NHQ on how non pilots are to complete AOPA Essential Aerodynamics for activities with planes. 

Still no response..................................

I took the course yesterday and used my CAPID number with 3 zero's in front and the cert printed right out.

[capmaj]

It will also print just using the 6 CAP digits. No need for a '000' prefix.

[NIN]

I just took it.  20 minutes, had to take the quiz twice, used "000" in front of my CAPID, and got the cert.

That being said, it was, IMHO, utterly worthless for the intended audience.  C/A1C Bagodonuts going to encampment where there just might be glider flights is NOT the right target for this.

[NC Hokie]

I just took it.  20 minutes, had to take the quiz twice, used "000" in front of my CAPID, and got the cert.

That being said, it was, IMHO, utterly worthless for the intended audience.  C/A1C Bagodonuts going to encampment where there just might be glider flights is NOT the right target for this.

After following your example and taking the course, I'm forced to agree with your assessment.  Under normal circumstances, C/A1C Bagodonuts will be a passenger with no need to understand wing loading, stall characteristics, spin recovery, center of gravity, etc.  While that is good information to know, it's not essential for most of the flying that our cadets do.

As far as requiring it "for all cadet activities including flying," I'm very concerned about the effect this will have on cadet o-flights.  We're encouraged to get cadets into the air ASAP; for example, Great Start effectively suggests doing so within the first eight weeks.  The problem is that new cadets sometimes struggle to pass their test on the first aerospace module, which is far simpler than this AOPA course.  I fear that requiring this certificate (which is intended for licensed and student pilots) will have the unintended consequence of grounding cadets we should be bending over backwards to get into the air.

[Bluelakes 13]

The memo clearly specifies it's intended for NCSA's and Region and Wing activities.

Has anyone received validation yet that this is intended for all activities, including unit and group ones, like bivouacs, oflights, etc?

Thanks.

[RiverAux]

The clause talking about ALL flying activities is subordinate to paragraph 1 which does only discuss NCSAs and Wing encampments, so you could be right in that it might not extend to regular o-flights and the like. 

[NIN]

The memo clearly specifies it's intended for NCSA's and Region and Wing activities.

Has anyone received validation yet that this is intended for all activities, including unit and group ones, like bivouacs, oflights, etc?

The clarification that was provided to MI Wing for their encampment (which is also the GLR-N encampment), which  features powered and glider o-flights was "Yes, you need this."

That guidance may have changed in the interim, but I believe that is still operative.

As long as you're not running a wing o-flight event, you're set.

[Eclipse]

The memo clearly specifies it's intended for NCSA's and Region and Wing activities.

Has anyone received validation yet that this is intended for all activities, including unit and group ones, like bivouacs, oflights, etc?

Thanks.

As of today, the answer is "Yes" - per your (our) Wing CC.