SM/Officer first time experience at encampments new to CAP, stories.

[mynetdude]

I'd like to hear about senior members/officers who were relatively new to CAP and went on their first encampment in the first year they were in.  I did, I joined in October of '06 went to encampment in July of '07.

I wouldn't say I had a blast, but my experience was a positive one overall.  Encampment wasn't for senior members anyway, it was for cadets and we are there to support them, guide them and maintain their well being/safety.

I got to learn a lot and I was the only 2d Lt at encampment last year being my first year.  And I got to get into trouble by my superior who was my squadron commander at my home unit and my supervisor for the encampment purpose which he was the chief TAC.

What was your experience as a new member and on your first encampment?  I met a few people, although more than half of them I already knew from prior activities leading up to the encampment or they were from my home unit.

Yeah, like you said, Encampments arent really a Senior Member activity. There is no real "experience" for SM's. I grew up in CAP and have been to encampments as a cadet and SM. I am a cadet Programs specialty track officer.

But for Sewniors, it is a good way to get to knowother SM's in your Wing. Especially if you are a CP officer. Youcan get new ideas and help with your Squadron program

Like most of us point out, encampment isn't for SMs it would be neat to have something that is for SMs that is exhillarating like encampment. Sure we have wing conferences, region conferences IACE/NCSA but then again IACE/NCSA is more for cadets the only exception is NBB would be more for SMs?

My first exposure to Encampment was as a prospective Chaplain (membership/appointment pending).   It certainly had a different "feel" about it than all the "Youth Summer Camps" I had either planned or served on staff.   I concur that Encampment is not geared for the SM's as it is "cadet-propelled".   However, if you have been a staff member for several years, in addition to the feeling that you have contributed to a great program, there are at least two things that you experience: 1) Since a majority of the staff are veterans of many encampments - there is a cohensive team in place almost from day one and also a sense of a "family reunion".   I look forward to that one-week each summer because I get to work with and hang out with some great people that I only get to see on few occassions throughout the year; and, 2) the opportunity to watch cadets grow and mature throughout their CAP careers.   To see a cadet become the Encampment Commander or a Squadron Commander and remember that a couple of years prior they were a homesick basic cadet that wanted to go home or was struggling to adjust to the structure and regimen, is a real joy. 

A SM Encampment???  Now that would be an interesting event.   However, I could see myself being part of a SM Drill Team like this one: http://www.movierush.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ee48d0b7d48c591b8f43

LOLz Lawn chair drill team they should allow a bit of oddities humor at cadet encampments to do something like this after their pass in review

[Eclipse]

the adult prm is not about ES. Not any more than the cadet pgm is. I realize for practical purposes that more adults are involve in ES & more areas of it, but that's not the focus. It's a three mission pgm. There is an adult AE pgm that's supposed to be running, and the adult pgm is there to delvier leadership developmental trng in the form of PD & specialty track progression.

Sorry, disagree.

Remove ES & CP from a senior member's activities, and there is no reason to belong.

While CAP works hard to train adult members as leaders, and those same skills transfer quite nicely to the "real" world, CAP is not the "Official Auxiliary of the Kellogg School of Management", and training leaders (in the general sense) is not one of its fundamental missions.

I cannot think of a single reason to belong to CAP if you have chosen not to be involved in ES or the CP.  There's nothing left of any substance.

[mynetdude]

the adult prm is not about ES. Not any more than the cadet pgm is. I realize for practical purposes that more adults are involve in ES & more areas of it, but that's not the focus. It's a three mission pgm. There is an adult AE pgm that's supposed to be running, and the adult pgm is there to delvier leadership developmental trng in the form of PD & specialty track progression.

Sorry, disagree.

Remove ES & CP from a senior member's activities, and there is no reason to belong.

While CAP works hard to train adult members as leaders, and those same skills transfer quite nicely to the "real" world, CAP is not the "Official Auxiliary of the Kellogg School of management", and training leaders (in the general sense) is not one of its fundamental missions.

I cannot think of a single reason to belong to CAP if yo have chosen not to be involved in ES or the CP.  There's nothing left of any substance.

well if you're talking about day to day activities that is different than encampment/NCSAs.  I agree ES is more of an adult/SM thing, well it seems to be anyway as adults are the only ones that can be in the aircraft for a search.  While cadets are allowed to participate in ES, their primary responsibility is to focus on their CP and partake in ES when they have time.

I don't really see CP as an adult thing, the cadets run most of that on their own the only time adults are needed is for supervision and activity support.  Our unit does AE for both seniors and cadets together "show & Tell" (also known as a "featurette") we have a former member who comes as a guest speaker to show off AE stuff. So us adults get a bit of AE as well .

[jimmydeanno]

I agree ES is more of an adult/SM thing, well it seems to be anyway as adults are the only ones that can be in the aircraft for a search. 

See page 10: http://www.cap.gov/documents/CAP_Volunteer_MarApr_2007_lores.pdf

[Ned]

I don't really see CP as an adult thing, the cadets run most of that on their own the only time adults are needed is for supervision and activity support. 

While a well-run cadet program does indeed have cadets doing most of the "hands-on" training (as well as much of the planning and scheduling), I strongly disagree with the notion that seniors are only needed for "supervision and activity support."

That is the "babysitting and safety officer" paradigm that discourages some terrific seniors from engaging in CP.  And that just hurts the cadets.

Well trained CP seniors are vital to the success of the program.  They actively mentor and train cadets. 

Sure, a senior should normally not be the primary instructor for drill and ceremonies, but a senior should absolutely be working closely with the cadet staff in developing the unit's curricula.  The DCC normally wouldn't be measuring the position of insiginia on a cadets uniform during an inspection, but is critical in working with that cadet staff in setting the "look and feel" of that inspection.

It is a senior member -- not a cadet -- who decides when a cadet is ready for promotion.  It is also a senior that decides which cadet(s) applications are forwarded favorably for NCSAs, scholarships, etc. 

The cadet commander and her/his staff are primarily responsble for training the lower-ranking troops, but who trains the cadet commander?  Answer -- the CP seniors at the unit level.

If all we needed were babysitters and van drivers, our life would certainly be easier.  But we could not continue to have a highly successful cadet program without our dedicated and involved CP officers.

Ned Lee
National CP Advisor

[DNall]

^ yes & no. Certainly you're right that generally the adult officer should not be doing those junior NCO roles. Either you already have a cadet competent on that command level or you don't. If you do then you need to teach them how to do it & supervise to ensure it's done correctly. If you don't, then you assume those roles till you can create a cadet competent at that level.

Which is what this says:
http://level2.cap.gov/documents/P052_015.pdf

However, the mission is reaching the training objective. I'm not going to allow a cadet NCO to teach a flight the wrong way so they can all fail & that one kid can learn a lesson from it. School is not about teachers becoming better at their job through experience, it's about students learning to the defined standard. If I need to intervene because that's the only way the instruction will effectively move to the student, then that's what's going to happen. I'll be slick about it so the NCO retains their authority, but I'm not going to allow my people to be set up for failure.

Generally though, I got much higher level stuff to worry about.

[flyguy06]

I'd like to hear about senior members/officers who were relatively new to CAP and went on their first encampment in the first year they were in.  I did, I joined in October of '06 went to encampment in July of '07.

I wouldn't say I had a blast, but my experience was a positive one overall.  Encampment wasn't for senior members anyway, it was for cadets and we are there to support them, guide them and maintain their well being/safety.

I got to learn a lot and I was the only 2d Lt at encampment last year being my first year.  And I got to get into trouble by my superior who was my squadron commander at my home unit and my supervisor for the encampment purpose which he was the chief TAC.

What was your experience as a new member and on your first encampment?  I met a few people, although more than half of them I already knew from prior activities leading up to the encampment or they were from my home unit.

Yeah, like you said, Encampments arent really a Senior Member activity. There is no real "experience" for SM's. I grew up in CAP and have been to encampments as a cadet and SM. I am a cadet Programs specialty track officer.

But for Sewniors, it is a good way to get to knowother SM's in your Wing. Especially if you are a CP officer. Youcan get new ideas and help with your Squadron program

Like most of us point out, encampment isn't for SMs it would be neat to have something that is for SMs that is exhillarating like encampment. Sure we have wing conferences, region conferences IACE/NCSA but then again IACE/NCSA is more for cadets the only exception is NBB would be more for SMs?

My first exposure to Encampment was as a prospective Chaplain (membership/appointment pending).   It certainly had a different "feel" about it than all the "Youth Summer Camps" I had either planned or served on staff.   I concur that Encampment is not geared for the SM's as it is "cadet-propelled".   However, if you have been a staff member for several years, in addition to the feeling that you have contributed to a great program, there are at least two things that you experience: 1) Since a majority of the staff are veterans of many encampments - there is a cohensive team in place almost from day one and also a sense of a "family reunion".   I look forward to that one-week each summer because I get to work with and hang out with some great people that I only get to see on few occassions throughout the year; and, 2) the opportunity to watch cadets grow and mature throughout their CAP careers.   To see a cadet become the Encampment Commander or a Squadron Commander and remember that a couple of years prior they were a homesick basic cadet that wanted to go home or was struggling to adjust to the structure and regimen, is a real joy. 

A SM Encampment???  Now that would be an interesting event.   However, I could see myself being part of a SM Drill Team like this one: http://www.movierush.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ee48d0b7d48c591b8f43

I agree. It is sort of like a family reunion

[flyguy06]

I don't really see CP as an adult thing, the cadets run most of that on their own the only time adults are needed is for supervision and activity support. 

While a well-run cadet program does indeed have cadets doing most of the "hands-on" training (as well as much of the planning and scheduling), I strongly disagree with the notion that seniors are only needed for "supervision and activity support."

That is the "babysitting and safety officer" paradigm that discourages some terrific seniors from engaging in CP.  And that just hurts the cadets.

Well trained CP seniors are vital to the success of the program.  They actively mentor and train cadets. 

Sure, a senior should normally not be the primary instructor for drill and ceremonies, but a senior should absolutely be working closely with the cadet staff in developing the unit's curricula.  The DCC normally wouldn't be measuring the position of insiginia on a cadets uniform during an inspection, but is critical in working with that cadet staff in setting the "look and feel" of that inspection.

It is a senior member -- not a cadet -- who decides when a cadet is ready for promotion.  It is also a senior that decides which cadet(s) applications are forwarded favorably for NCSAs, scholarships, etc. 

The cadet commander and her/his staff are primarily responsble for training the lower-ranking troops, but who trains the cadet commander?  Answer -- the CP seniors at the unit level.

If all we needed were babysitters and van drivers, our life would certainly be easier.  But we could not continue to have a highly successful cadet program without our dedicated and involved CP officers.

Ned Lee
National CP Advisor

I totally agree with this statement. I am a very involved SM. My job as DCC is to train the cadet staff and ensure they train the cadet basics to standard.

[DNall]

^ yes exactly, and that means there are times when you do have to intervene in training to ensure the standard is met, in some limited cases even conducting training yourself. That does mean you also need to do training with your staff so this doesn't become a long-term issue. Again, ref'ing CAPP52-15.

All of this being VERY far from this:

I don't really see CP as an adult thing, the cadets run most of that on their own the only time adults are needed is for supervision and activity support. 

It's a team effort. The supervisor is there to supervise & guarantee the standard, but when necessary needs to dig in with the troops (cadet staff) & make sure the job gets done right so we set our people up for success rather than tolerating failure built on failure merely because the cadet staff needs to learn.

[mynetdude]

I'm still a 2nd Lt, and I like these discussion forums and I have learned a lot from it. The views and perspectives have helped and showed me the difference in variety and options when it comes to training, CP, ES and so forth.

You all probably wonder why I only see it one way at the moment, there are two reasons: experience and well what I have been taught/seen so again experience and the fact that is how it is somewhat done at our sq.

I never see our DCC do D&C with the cadets or at least instruct/intervene when needed.  We have one cadet who is really good at D&C and has finally made c/2Lt , yeah sure I know that our DCC teaches classes, sits on the PRB, arranges activities and sometimes goes to them.  Works with the cadet staff, and does some of her own training as well.

I'm definitely looking forward to visiting some other squadrons in 2008/2009 to get a variety immersion.  I have seen stuff done at encampment done entirely different than done at our home unit even that still bewilders me still so I know I need to pay another encampment a visit.

Yes I know there is specific regulation and materials that explain what must be done, how it must be done, rules and procedures to do it all however IMHO I don't think it helps a SM/Officer to just read the regs, books, watch cadets do it and do it with them if they don't get the training from a knowledgeable person who can teach it correctly (not a cadet) so hopefully you have someone who is in the military or was in the military and still knows their D&C well enough to teach you so you can know it like clockwork as a DCC.

There are a lot of members in my sq who do not have military experience and plenty who do.  I for one do not, I can count at least 3 others who have though and possibly 1-2 more and I know for sure the DCC and her assistant (whom is related to her) AFAIK do not have military experience; not having military experience does not mean you can't do the job however IMHO without practical immersion training as you would get as a cadet I think its important for a DCC other than just learning it from another former military guy who has been out of the military for some 20 years or reading the regs and D&C guide with pictures.

Heck if our squadron would be more "militarilistic" I'll bet I'd learn a lot more but they are lax in that area except for cadets.  I am learning, but I think I am not getting enough and I want more of it.

That being said yes I did learn a lot from the cadets at encampment, but it didn't apply to me practically/hands on which is one of the reasons I declined to go to encampment this year, I do not blame the encampment for anything it is not their fault because like I said encampment is more for cadets while it is a "reunion" for SMs/Officers and at the same time to help the cadets in their training .

[DNall]

Being in the military doesn't mean you know DnC.

It's done differently in each service, so it's probably easier for you to learn from scratch, versus I have to remember what I learned, then forget elements of it, learn a new system, then keep the two straight.

Plus, I had two total hours of DnC instruction at basic, and never did it again. We stand formations where we're kind of at ease or attention, but that's about it. Unless you're a drill sgt or have some ceremonial duty, chances are you're more likely to teach something wrong than know what you're doing.

DnC is about tradition & ceremony. It's not daily life in the military. It's used as a very basic introductory tool to teach teamwork & discipline. Once they have those concepts down, regardless of how well they march, we (in the military) move on to demonstrating those qualities in more meaningful training areas.

I do know my DnC, but I know it from being a CP officer, not from being in the Army. That a point of professional pride. You need to be a subject matter expert on anything you expect your people to learn/know. If you aren't, then you have no business supervising or leading them. That takes time & training, but eventually you get it.

As you mention, there are other more important aspects of a military background. Absolute professionalism, personal responsibility, discipline, accountability, core values, real leadership training & experience, etc are all essential to being a good CAP officer & particularly in CP. Hanging around int he military a few years once upon a time doesn't guarantee those things, being successful in a military career tends to be a pretty good indicator though. Likewise, all those things can be present in a civilian. It's just not normally the case that they're so essential to daily life & it takes some experience in a military-based program like ours to get them all functioning together on a high level. If your unit doesn't work like that, that's unfortunate, cause it really isn't about wearing uniforms & saluting each other.

If you get a chance, you might try visiting some other Wing's encampments as well. I've found that very instructive over the years.

[flyguy06]

D&C isnt that much diferent between the services. Just minor things. I am inthe military and Because my Squadron s so small, Ido actually drill the cadets and march them. Until Iget a cadet NCO I have to.

I give the cadets a chance to lead and drill also though. I give the cadets the schedule and they carry it out.

Army D&C is not much different from AF D&C. Only Dres Right Dress and column marching are  few minor differences.

[DNall]

columns are the most noticable thing, but there are many other difference as well. Particularly the way commands are called. Inspection procedures & PT formation are completely different.

[mikeylikey]

^ Especially between the Air Force and Army, there are so many "small" details.  Since both shared a common history, I would imagine that many of those differences were "just created" by Airman to be different. 

[flyguy06]

columns are the most noticable thing, but there are many other difference as well. Particularly the way commands are called. Inspection procedures & PT formation are completely different.

My PT formations are no different. I use the box style formations. There is no reg on it, so I go with what I know

[DNall]

there's a definite way to do it in both army & af. it ends up looking the same but the procedure to get there & back are quite a bit different. The AF way is actually a lot more efficient & uses standard drill commands versus dif the army (extend/assemble).

the problem is there are so many minor difs that you really have to be an expert to know what's what. That leads to a lot of cadets being taught the wrong way, which is the only reason we do drill at encampment is fixing those kinds of problems.

[Dutchboy]

My first encampment I was the Mess Officer (don't figure) and I fed about 120 people. I did it all. The cooking and the dishes. cleaning most of the dining hall also. Being a Tac might be hard work, but you should try what I do, every year. Because of how well everyone likes my cooking, I actually order everything and organize the "Mess".

[mynetdude]

My first encampment I was the Mess Officer (don't figure) and I fed about 120 people. I did it all. The cooking and the dishes. cleaning most of the dining hall also. Being a Tac might be hard work, but you should try what I do, every year. Because of how well everyone likes my cooking, I actually order everything and organize the "Mess".

Last year we had a cadet who got involved in the mess hall with the ANG staff who were running it. He wasn't really the mess officer, he just helped out and when the basics/cadet staff were out he would help with clean up and moping when there wasn't much traffic in the building and helped supervise cadets who were assigned to the mess hall for corrective actions (of course a senior member had to also be present when this happened).

[mikeylikey]

I am sorry to say but assigning Cadet to mess hall as staff is silly.  They are paying to be there, and unless they are doing more than clearing trays and moping the floor, it is a waste of that cadets time.

When I did ENC, only "bad" cadets would end up working mess hall duty.  Those types were the ones who decided not to wake up for PT, missed transportation and failed to adhere to the rules.  Big wakeup call when you get to clean up after 250-300 people and then scrub garbage cans!

[Eeyore]

We had each flight take two turns taking mess hall duties. With the whole flight working it usually only took about 15-30 minutes for the hall to be clean and the dishes to be done.

Adds to the whole attention to details and teamwork theme.