SM/Officer first time experience at encampments new to CAP, stories.

[mynetdude]

I'd like to hear about senior members/officers who were relatively new to CAP and went on their first encampment in the first year they were in.  I did, I joined in October of '06 went to encampment in July of '07.

I wouldn't say I had a blast, but my experience was a positive one overall.  Encampment wasn't for senior members anyway, it was for cadets and we are there to support them, guide them and maintain their well being/safety.

I got to learn a lot and I was the only 2d Lt at encampment last year being my first year.  And I got to get into trouble by my superior who was my squadron commander at my home unit and my supervisor for the encampment purpose which he was the chief TAC.

What was your experience as a new member and on your first encampment?  I met a few people, although more than half of them I already knew from prior activities leading up to the encampment or they were from my home unit.

[Brad]

Hmm...well I've only been in CAP since October. I missed the fall CTW, but I'm going to the Spring one in two weeks as a TAC. I have had similar experience before with NJROTC, when I was a cadet cadre at Leadership Academy, although there there was no established real cadet staff, there was simply each platoon (read flight), then it went to the cadet cadre, then to the Platoon Advisor, who was an NJROTC instructor.  The Platoon Advisor position would be more comparable to a TAC officer than the cadre from what I've read. Gives me a chance to utilize the finer aspects of leadership as opposed to the simple in your face stuff....although that's useful at times too, lol! 

[Eclipse]

I would be curious what you didn't like about it...

[NIN]

I wasn't new to CAP, but I was a newbie SM and fresh back from the Army when I went to my first encampment as a senior.  It was a two-week long encampment (man, that was a blast!) and the 2nd week I was on the "IG" staff (most places call that stan-eval now). 

First day, I'm walking toward one of the barracks to do a "contraband" inspection (ie. "shakedown") and as I approached the female barracks, the door flew open, the female flight sergeant darted out, ran up to me, saluted, handed me something, and ran away.

I was startled to say the least, until I looked down and realized it was "her" contraband: Her birth control pills.

I bet I turned 10 shades of red.  I had no idea what to do.  This was in the early days of the cadet protection program and everybody was on tenterhooks as to how to act around the cadets, especially cadets of the other sex, so it was ... odd....

I looked at the squadron adjutant thats with me and said "Uh, yeah, NOW what to do I do?"

[mikeylikey]

^ 9 months later...............

[Gunner C]

^ 9 months later...............

DOH! 

[RiverAux]

Boy, I think this would be a hard task for most new senior members and I admire you for taking that on so soon after joining. 

[mynetdude]

Well when I applied for a staff position at encampment... I didn't get exactly "treated" as any other member would but then again another certain member didn't get treated well because of a certain person but that is not the point.

I don't remember what I put on my app, I have a file copy somewhere, I know I applied for Assist TAC and I "kind of" got the job only because another 1Lt wouldn't be there on certain days while camp was running so I filled her position on those days and TBH I wasn't really much of an assistant anyway IMHO.

I also got assigned as the Assistant LG, again I didn't really do much really either. I just kinda walked around and observed mostly and then the other half of the time I stayed off my feet as I had injured my feet partly due to my past medical history with my feet in the first place so it was not an "occupational injury".

I would like to go back to encampment as a full time Assist TAC, seeing as there is a lot of walking/standing I'm hesitant to ask for that position again.  I most likely will ask for Logistics and IT, but I am not interested in going back this year.

What I didn't like was I didn't feel as if I was "connected" 100% really... I kinda felt out of place even when we began cadet staff selection.

I don't know that I would/could handle going outside my home unit for much else so I hope the PCR conference goes well in May .

[CadetProgramGuy]

New members headed off to Encampments?

Two things come to thought.....

1.  An Open mind
2.  Invest in Moleskin

[mynetdude]

New members headed off to Encampments?

Two things come to thought.....

1.  An Open mind
2.  Invest in Moleskin

Well I thought going to encampment as a new member would be a good opportunity to gain some experience for the next encampment and such forth.

I don't get blisters unless I run in my boots, so I don't run.  However I can't wear the combat boots for long periods of time as they bother/don't support my feet as well as the soles literally flex and flexing soles are just crap base platform for orthopedic support.

Of course I try to have an open mind, plenty of possibilities. I just did whatever "floats the boat" to get us through encampment and we did well.

I wouldn't say I didn't like the fact that I was the only 2d Lt at encampment, though it has passed with history that I have been the only one OF something at almost every camp I have gone to in the past; it gave us all officers something to talk about so I liked that.

[2ltAlexD]

What is expected of senior members at encampment? Do we have to follow contraban regs and march?

[Eclipse]

What is expected of senior members at encampment? Do we have to follow contraband regs and march?

It depends on the encampment, but it should be made clear to you by the commander(s).

Whether its marching or walking, expect to walk a lot.  Most encampments have TAC officers shadow their assigned flight the entire time, so you might not be in step, but your feet will be in motion.

There are also a lot of different jobs, so again, it depends...

[mynetdude]

What is expected of senior members at encampment? Do we have to follow contraban regs and march?

Haha not exactly, put it this way. Senior members are to set an example for the cadets because they look to us for guidance (kind of like little brother/sister and big brother/sister), whatever you do in front of your little brother as a big brother your little brother will do too at some point.

We are not required to March, though I would expect every senior member to wear some kind of uniform, even corporate distinctive uniforms.  I know for me, I was required to be at every Revile and Retreat, there were a lot of SMs who were not at the flag either.  Though the Encampment Commander was always at Revile and Retreat, my chief TAC, my TAC and all the assistant TACs (including myself). Once in awhile the chaplain or MLO would come out to either one of those or both.  We had a senior member who was the NCO for the camp/wing he would be present for most of the Revile and Retreats as well.

Simply put, you are expected to do what you would do as a senior member, be helpful, respectful, obey the rules etc... I don't know what different expectations there would be because it seems to be the same at the unit as well.

[mynetdude]

What is expected of senior members at encampment? Do we have to follow contraband regs and march?

It depends on the encampment, but it should be made clear to you by the commander(s).

Whether its marching or walking, expect to walk a lot.  Most encampments have TAC officers shadow their assigned flight the entire time, so you might not be in step, but your feet will be in motion.

There are also a lot of different jobs, so again, it depends...

The next encampment I'll get a job that doesn't put me on my feet so much IT will be one of them.  TBH with you, I didn't see much in the way of Logistics really, although LG handled vehicle/transportation checkin/checkout that was about it.

[Cecil DP]

Hmm...well I've only been in CAP since October. I missed the fall CTW, but I'm going to the Spring one in two weeks as a TAC. I have had similar experience before with NJROTC, when I was a cadet cadre at Leadership Academy, although there there was no established real cadet staff, there was simply each platoon (read flight), then it went to the cadet cadre, then to the Platoon Advisor, who was an NJROTC instructor.  The Platoon Advisor position would be more comparable to a TAC officer than the cadre from what I've read. Gives me a chance to utilize the finer aspects of leadership as opposed to the simple in your face stuff....although that's useful at times too, lol! 

I would have given them back and had her turn them in to the Medical Officer.

[mynetdude]

Hmm...well I've only been in CAP since October. I missed the fall CTW, but I'm going to the Spring one in two weeks as a TAC. I have had similar experience before with NJROTC, when I was a cadet cadre at Leadership Academy, although there there was no established real cadet staff, there was simply each platoon (read flight), then it went to the cadet cadre, then to the Platoon Advisor, who was an NJROTC instructor.  The Platoon Advisor position would be more comparable to a TAC officer than the cadre from what I've read. Gives me a chance to utilize the finer aspects of leadership as opposed to the simple in your face stuff....although that's useful at times too, lol! 

I would have given them back and had her turn them in to the Medical Officer.

Anyway aren't those things supposed to be checked when a cadet checks in for camp so that it can go to the medical officer so not to have such embarrassment like that?

[DNall]

I'm not sure why you need moleskin. I try to avoid that stuff, or rather the occasion of needing it, unless I ruck at least 5 miles. no such thing is going to happen at any encampment I've ever been to.

Big picture... Look, I've been to a lot of encampments & I'll go along to get along as the situation & leadership demand, but I'm not happy about it.

The whole purpose of encampment is an immersion experience. I would say mil immersion experience & talk to ACA (or whatever their name is now) about what that means.

My key with encampment, & as a cadet pgms officer in general, is cadet are capable of X (whatever that may situationally be), and the training standard is Y. As the supervisor (TAC, DCC, etc) your job is to guarantee Y is reached regardless of X. If the cadets are capable of that w/o you involvement, then by all means be hands off & safety net. If not, then for sure intervene to the extent necessary.

A lot of cadet programs &/or encampments are not run that way, which makes them about meaningless. That's unfortunate.

As a new member, it's important to realize where that standard is, your limits in driving for it, and how to tactfully deal with your leadership to ensure that standard is achieved.

[jb512]

DNall has it right.  Some flights at our last encampment had very strong cadet leaders and needed no help at all.  The flight that I had last year did not.

And yes, if you're to the point that you need moleskin, either your boots suck or you need to get outside and do more walking more than just one week out of the year.

I see the TACs role as safety only because the cadet staff are the ones responsible for the example setting, instruction, and such.  Those of us who are former cadets, military, etc., see things that need fixing and it's hard to resist the tempation to step in and say something.  My flight staff last summer obviously needed some help so I offered advice here and there but only when asked and I was very careful to do it out of earshot of the flight.

I noticed that some TACs want to act like mommies and daddies too much and circumvent the cadet leadership. Another one wanted to take over a flight as though he was their flight staff, but most of the rest of us were in the shadows unless needed for something.

On that note, one of my pet peeves is not following the chain of command.  Something we should teach all TACs is that unless there is an immediate safety concern to a cadet, out of respect you should always go through the flight staff to request cadets out of formation, barracks, etc.  Not only does it reenforce their authority over the flight, it lets the flight know that you respect the staff enough to go through them.  It also lets them know where their cadet disappeared to.

[adamblank]

I definitely second all of the above.  It is good to get a few minutes with your staff at the end of the day and do a leadership recap.  Most importantly...have fun.  You are taking a lot of vacation time most likely, encampments are a great experience, get as much fun out of them as you can.

[mynetdude]

I'm not sure why you need moleskin. I try to avoid that stuff, or rather the occasion of needing it, unless I ruck at least 5 miles. no such thing is going to happen at any encampment I've ever been to.

Big picture... Look, I've been to a lot of encampments & I'll go along to get along as the situation & leadership demand, but I'm not happy about it.

The whole purpose of encampment is an immersion experience. I would say mil immersion experience & talk to ACA (or whatever their name is now) about what that means.

My key with encampment, & as a cadet pgms officer in general, is cadet are capable of X (whatever that may situationally be), and the training standard is Y. As the supervisor (TAC, DCC, etc) your job is to guarantee Y is reached regardless of X. If the cadets are capable of that w/o you involvement, then by all means be hands off & safety net. If not, then for sure intervene to the extent necessary.

A lot of cadet programs &/or encampments are not run that way, which makes them about meaningless. That's unfortunate.

As a new member, it's important to realize where that standard is, your limits in driving for it, and how to tactfully deal with your leadership to ensure that standard is achieved.

I knew that from the get go, it was stressed by the commander, the encampment commander, the DCC and my best CAP friend.  And besides I could already tell it was already hands off since cadets do a lot of things on their own at the unit level as they should with SM support and safety net.

I already knew the expectations, the difficult part was knowing when and understanding when to intervene.  For the most part I dealt with the flight sergeants and flight commanders directly, if they had questions I typically answered or referred them to the proper SM who would have the answer for them.  I would also escort cadet basics that were to report to the encampment commander, etc.

I still could use more practice, being on my feet isn't going to happen this year or next year although next year I could do less "feet" tasking such as IT work to assist the cadet/senior PAOs in doing computer work and such and setting up internet for the staff to use and troubleshooting any problems they might have.

Being an Assistant TAC is one good way to understand and learn how to do your job and such although I have learned first time encampment attendees end up being TACs with no assistant under them or with an assistant under them depending on the staffing levels.

I know I am not doing encampment this year, if I don't next year I'd at least do an NCSA as a staff as that is pretty much all I can do anyway, the NCSA is for cadets.

[mynetdude]

I was kind of hoping for more stories about new members attending encampment for the first time.  I consider being more than 6 months into CAP still a new member.  I get promoted in 2 weeks finally!

I was already 9 months into CAP by the time encampment came for me I was still pretty new, it has been 8 months since that encampment and I feel like I have been in forever and to a degree I'd still consider myself new but not really.

Anyway, how about some stories about senior/officers first timers at encampment regardless of how long you've been in CAP?



As to the interference issues, I never once interfered I did ask too many questions of my fellow TAC officers though and then once I caught a safety hazard and informed one of the flight commanders who happened to walk into the barracks and pointed to  him and he took care of it right then and there .

Overall, I just listened and watched most of it was pretty fun too.

[Eeyore]

The encampment I attended last summer was my first encampment as a senior member. I was acting as both a TAC and the encampment PAO. A couple of the TACs that were supposed to attend bailed last minute, and being in a small WG at the time made it nearly impossible to replace them last minute.

That week was the most exhausting week that I have done in a long time. I do not recommend trying to do two jobs, it's nearly impossible. When the cadets were in class I was running back to the staff office and writing press releases, downloading pictures that I had taken earlier, and proofing articles written my the cadet PA staff. Then running back to catch my flight before they left the class. After the basic cadets were asleep and I had finished all the stuff I had to do as a TAC I would join the rest of the senior staff and work on paperwork, and PAO stuff; usually we were up pretty late. After a couple hours of sleep, back up with the flight and doing it all again.

I loved the whole experience, I just wouldn't ever want to be double staffed again.

There were a number of things that added to the difficulty of staffing the encampment, but those are longer stories.

[mynetdude]

The encampment I attended last summer was my first encampment as a senior member. I was acting as both a TAC and the encampment PAO. A couple of the TACs that were supposed to attend bailed last minute, and being in a small WG at the time made it nearly impossible to replace them last minute.

That week was the most exhausting week that I have done in a long time. I do not recommend trying to do two jobs, it's nearly impossible. When the cadets were in class I was running back to the staff office and writing press releases, downloading pictures that I had taken earlier, and proofing articles written my the cadet PA staff. Then running back to catch my flight before they left the class. After the basic cadets were asleep and I had finished all the stuff I had to do as a TAC I would join the rest of the senior staff and work on paperwork, and PAO stuff; usually we were up pretty late. After a couple hours of sleep, back up with the flight and doing it all again.

I loved the whole experience, I just wouldn't ever want to be double staffed again.

There were a number of things that added to the difficulty of staffing the encampment, but those are longer stories.

Double staffing is probably one of the hardest thingt so do, encampment or at any other level of echelon.

[DNall]

TAC means train, advise, & counsel. It doesn't mean safety officer, adult supervision, wasting my time.

I'm sick of hearing staff will learn through their mistakes. Yeah, they will if someone points them out. And while that's happening, their students are getting left behind. Encampment does not exist for staff. Anything they get out of it is bonus. It's there for basics & that takes priority at all times.

The training standard is simple. The military enlists our Mitchell cadets at E-3. That means the academics & PT of the program to that point, plus encampment, regardless of their age or how fast/slow they progress, must equal the capability/competence/etc level expected of an E-3 in the mil.

Most cadet officers & NCOs can't reach that training standard themselves in a week, much less bring a flight of basics to that point. I actually don't think it's achievable, but the job is to ensure we get as close as possible.

That does require intervention from competent leaders. The TAC acting like their mom/dad is a complete failure. The one pushing the flight staff aside to directly lead the flight is to. But, I constantly ride a C/Sq CC & 1Sgt, Flt/CC & Flt/sgt. I'll do it out of earshot of the flight, but they're going to feel enormous pressure from me with performance deadlines, constant feedback, tactics suggestions, etc. The flight too is going to get an earful at the start & know darn well we're there to do some business.

It's not freakin vacation boy scout summer camp lets all play games & get a pretty merit badge BS. I got no time for kids games, and I got no time for stupid. If you're ready to come & learn how to be the real deal, then I can help you out with that. I'm not going to be teaching battle drills or anything like that obviously. I need them to become competent professional airmen so they can go back & progress beyond that.

[mynetdude]

TAC means train, advise, & counsel. It doesn't mean safety officer, adult supervision, wasting my time.

I'm sick of hearing staff will learn through their mistakes. Yeah, they will if someone points them out. And while that's happening, their students are getting left behind. Encampment does not exist for staff. Anything they get out of it is bonus. It's there for basics & that takes priority at all times.

The training standard is simple. The military enlists our Mitchell cadets at E-3. That means the academics & PT of the program to that point, plus encampment, regardless of their age or how fast/slow they progress, must equal the capability/competence/etc level expected of an E-3 in the mil.

Most cadet officers & NCOs can't reach that training standard themselves in a week, much less bring a flight of basics to that point. I actually don't think it's achievable, but the job is to ensure we get as close as possible.

That does require intervention from competent leaders. The TAC acting like their mom/dad is a complete failure. The one pushing the flight staff aside to directly lead the flight is to. But, I constantly ride a C/Sq CC & 1Sgt, Flt/CC & Flt/sgt. I'll do it out of earshot of the flight, but they're going to feel enormous pressure from me with performance deadlines, constant feedback, tactics suggestions, etc. The flight too is going to get an earful at the start & know darn well we're there to do some business.

It's not freakin vacation boy scout summer camp lets all play games & get a pretty merit badge BS. I got no time for kids games, and I got no time for stupid. If you're ready to come & learn how to be the real deal, then I can help you out with that. I'm not going to be teaching battle drills or anything like that obviously. I need them to become competent professional airmen so they can go back & progress beyond that.

I'm not all sure what the exact goal of encampment is but to give basics an immersion of what military basic training is "generally" like as there are certain things cadets are not allowed to do as if you were in basic training.

If the goal is to get them to E-3 in a week, thats a bit overboard thats A LOT to put them through in a week's time that is what regular squadron attendance at your home unit is for (hopefully!).  Yes indeed, encampment is just one of those things they should do for immersion and improvement.

I don't know, 1 week seems kind of short for some of the things they needed to get done and at the same time nobody wants to be there for more than a week I can betcha that.  I've talked to senior members who were former cadets, they have gone through 2 weeks of encampments when they were in CAP as a kid and those times have changed.

Also YMMV depending on your encampment commander, we're told unless there is a safety issue or cadet staff doing something obtusely wrong we as TACs are not to do anything unless they come to the TAC for help.

Our NCO who was at encampment last year got into trouble just for that, he was advising the cadet staff on some drill moves not that they didn't know it but how they could effectively do it better.

So I hear encampment is varied and isn't "standardized" I don't exactly believe in standardization, however getting too wrapped up in doing it one way vs the correct way could also be an issue.

[Eeyore]

We were encouraged to help the cadet staff.  I personally spent a lot of time with my flight's c/NCO helping him learn how to drill, and command. Towards the end of the week, he actually started to get it, pretty exciting when you get through to a cadet and they turn themselves around and excel.

Although, there were a number of people around the wing that disagreed with how the encampment was being run; we were running it right out of the NYWG encampment handbook. We had parents (senior members) showing up and telling cadets not to listen to us.

[sarc]Apparently taking a role in training cadets is more than what senior members should be doing, and when cadets mess up, we are supposed to sit back and watch until they figure it out on their own.[/sarc]

[DNall]

If the goal is to get them to E-3 in a week, thats a bit overboard thats A LOT to put them through in a week's time that is what regular squadron attendance at your home unit is for (hopefully!).  Yes indeed, encampment is just one of those things they should do for immersion and improvement.

I said their cadet program through mitchell PLUS encampment should equal E-3 capability level excluding service specific items (shooting, WTT, etc). Encampment should be the intensive immersion portion of that experience.

i know it's too short a time, but that's what we got. last time out my Sq & flt staffs were pretty decent & they didn't have their crap together till the last couple days. So, they weren't successfully training anyone till then. That means those basic cadets got about .5 to 1 day of decent training before they were into lots of PIR practice, field-day, dining-in, etc. How is that successful?

I don't really care what anyone else says. I'll work within the system, but I'm going to drive the people around me hard toward that training objective. Cadets end up liking me for that by the end, but I don't care about that. The staff making selections knows that about me going in & they choose to select me.

[mynetdude]

We were encouraged to help the cadet staff.  I personally spent a lot of time with my flight's c/NCO helping him learn how to drill, and command. Towards the end of the week, he actually started to get it, pretty exciting when you get through to a cadet and they turn themselves around and excel.

Although, there were a number of people around the wing that disagreed with how the encampment was being run; we were running it right out of the NYWG encampment handbook. We had parents (senior members) showing up and telling cadets not to listen to us.

[sarc]Apparently taking a role in training cadets is more than what senior members should be doing, and when cadets mess up, we are supposed to sit back and watch until they figure it out on their own.[/sarc]

I don't know, if you ask me the flight sergeants and commanders should already know their D&C by now, unless you've got a cadet who is just an Airman as the flight sergeant?

[mynetdude]

If the goal is to get them to E-3 in a week, thats a bit overboard thats A LOT to put them through in a week's time that is what regular squadron attendance at your home unit is for (hopefully!).  Yes indeed, encampment is just one of those things they should do for immersion and improvement.

I said their cadet program through mitchell PLUS encampment should equal E-3 capability level excluding service specific items (shooting, WTT, etc). Encampment should be the intensive immersion portion of that experience.

i know it's too short a time, but that's what we got. last time out my Sq & flt staffs were pretty decent & they didn't have their crap together till the last couple days. So, they weren't successfully training anyone till then. That means those basic cadets got about .5 to 1 day of decent training before they were into lots of PIR practice, field-day, dining-in, etc. How is that successful?

I don't really care what anyone else says. I'll work within the system, but I'm going to drive the people around me hard toward that training objective. Cadets end up liking me for that by the end, but I don't care about that. The staff making selections knows that about me going in & they choose to select me.

I don't disagree with you, it really all depends on the needs of the cadets and encampment as it is.

I don't know D&C well enough to teach them that, even if I did know my D&C moves that doesn't mean I would be good at it.  The difference of knowing how to do it vs being good at it is a huge difference.

If you're prior military or current reserve you'd probably have it down better and can provide better support that way.  Not every TAC has the same abilities/skills as you do.

[Ned]

I don't really care what anyone else says. I'll work within the system, but I'm going to drive the people around me hard toward that training objective. Cadets end up liking me for that by the end, but I don't care about that. The staff making selections knows that about me going in & they choose to select me.

Mr.  Nall,

First, let me sincerely thank you for the hard work you do with our cadets at encampment.  You are making a difference in people's lives.

As an encampment kind of guy (30+, mostly CAWG), I've always been keenly interested in the topic of "how military" our encapments ought to be.  I wrote an article on this topic for CadetStuff here.

But I would like to point out that the 52-16, Paragraph 5-1 a. lists the goals for our encampment program, and #11 is "Present an introduction to the military."  I'm not sure that that goal (or any of the others) should be interpreted to include holding cadets to any of the standards I would normally associate with an E-3 in any of the services.

Don't get me wrong.  I believe that encapment should be a vigorous and challenging activity for every cadet.  We already know that a challenging encampment program is one of the single most important factors in cadet retention and training.

And I also strongly agree with you that TACs are not mere babysitters or safety officers; TACs should actively engage and mentor the cadets when and where appropriate.


As you and others have noted, there is a fairly wide range of practices among the wings.  Some wings encourage active engagement by the TAC staff; others less so.  Until we get some consensus in this area and update the 52-16 and perhaps the 52-10 to give better guidance to the field, neither approach is definatively "wrong."


FWIW, the National Staff is currently working the issue, and will be sending officers to both Lackland and the USAFA to study how the AF sets the "look and feel" of BMT and Beast.  The plan is to develop standards and tools that would allow CP volunteers to implement a challenging program that is appropriate to our 13-15 year old training audience.


Ned Lee
National CP Advisor
(And retired Infantry officer)

[flyguy06]

I'd like to hear about senior members/officers who were relatively new to CAP and went on their first encampment in the first year they were in.  I did, I joined in October of '06 went to encampment in July of '07.

I wouldn't say I had a blast, but my experience was a positive one overall.  Encampment wasn't for senior members anyway, it was for cadets and we are there to support them, guide them and maintain their well being/safety.

I got to learn a lot and I was the only 2d Lt at encampment last year being my first year.  And I got to get into trouble by my superior who was my squadron commander at my home unit and my supervisor for the encampment purpose which he was the chief TAC.

What was your experience as a new member and on your first encampment?  I met a few people, although more than half of them I already knew from prior activities leading up to the encampment or they were from my home unit.

Yeah, like you said, Encampments arent really a Senior Member activity. There is no real "experience" for SM's. I grew up in CAP and have been to encampments as a cadet and SM. I am a cadet Programs specialty track officer.

But for Sewniors, it is a good way to get to knowother SM's in your Wing. Especially if you are a CP officer. Youcan get new ideas and help with your Squadron program

[mynetdude]

I'd like to hear about senior members/officers who were relatively new to CAP and went on their first encampment in the first year they were in.  I did, I joined in October of '06 went to encampment in July of '07.

I wouldn't say I had a blast, but my experience was a positive one overall.  Encampment wasn't for senior members anyway, it was for cadets and we are there to support them, guide them and maintain their well being/safety.

I got to learn a lot and I was the only 2d Lt at encampment last year being my first year.  And I got to get into trouble by my superior who was my squadron commander at my home unit and my supervisor for the encampment purpose which he was the chief TAC.

What was your experience as a new member and on your first encampment?  I met a few people, although more than half of them I already knew from prior activities leading up to the encampment or they were from my home unit.

Yeah, like you said, Encampments arent really a Senior Member activity. There is no real "experience" for SM's. I grew up in CAP and have been to encampments as a cadet and SM. I am a cadet Programs specialty track officer.

But for Sewniors, it is a good way to get to knowother SM's in your Wing. Especially if you are a CP officer. Youcan get new ideas and help with your Squadron program

Like most of us point out, encampment isn't for SMs it would be neat to have something that is for SMs that is exhillarating like encampment. Sure we have wing conferences, region conferences IACE/NCSA but then again IACE/NCSA is more for cadets the only exception is NBB would be more for SMs?

[flyguy06]

I didnt read the previous posts, but I dont know if a "Senior Member" Encamment is a good idea. The cadet program has a different objective than the senior member program. The cadet programis designed to teach leadership and build character in a military and aviation environment. The senior member program is designed to provide Search and rescue services to customers. I

I cant really see having 50-60 year old men wakingup at 0500 and doing PT and marching in formation. 

[SJFedor]

I'd like to hear about senior members/officers who were relatively new to CAP and went on their first encampment in the first year they were in.  I did, I joined in October of '06 went to encampment in July of '07.

I wouldn't say I had a blast, but my experience was a positive one overall.  Encampment wasn't for senior members anyway, it was for cadets and we are there to support them, guide them and maintain their well being/safety.

I got to learn a lot and I was the only 2d Lt at encampment last year being my first year.  And I got to get into trouble by my superior who was my squadron commander at my home unit and my supervisor for the encampment purpose which he was the chief TAC.

What was your experience as a new member and on your first encampment?  I met a few people, although more than half of them I already knew from prior activities leading up to the encampment or they were from my home unit.

Yeah, like you said, Encampments arent really a Senior Member activity. There is no real "experience" for SM's. I grew up in CAP and have been to encampments as a cadet and SM. I am a cadet Programs specialty track officer.

But for Sewniors, it is a good way to get to knowother SM's in your Wing. Especially if you are a CP officer. Youcan get new ideas and help with your Squadron program

Like most of us point out, encampment isn't for SMs it would be neat to have something that is for SMs that is exhillarating like encampment. Sure we have wing conferences, region conferences IACE/NCSA but then again IACE/NCSA is more for cadets the only exception is NBB would be more for SMs?

The only NCSA that is geared only towards adults is NESA Mission Aircrew, which requires age 18+. Last year we had 1 cadet in the school.

Not that NCSA's should be geared towards our SM's anyway. They're National Cadet Special Activities

[DNall]

Mr.  Nall,

First, let me sincerely thank you for the hard work you do with our cadets at encampment.  You are making a difference in people's lives.

As an encampment kind of guy (30+, mostly CAWG), I've always been keenly interested in the topic of "how military" our encapments ought to be.  I wrote an article on this topic for CadetStuff here.

But I would like to point out that the 52-16, Paragraph 5-1 a. lists the goals for our encampment program, and #11 is "Present an introduction to the military."  I'm not sure that that goal (or any of the others) should be interpreted to include holding cadets to any of the standards I would normally associate with an E-3 in any of the services.

Don't get me wrong.  I believe that encapment should be a vigorous and challenging activity for every cadet.  We already know that a challenging encampment program is one of the single most important factors in cadet retention and training.

And I also strongly agree with you that TACs are not mere babysitters or safety officers; TACs should actively engage and mentor the cadets when and where appropriate.


As you and others have noted, there is a fairly wide range of practices among the wings.  Some wings encourage active engagement by the TAC staff; others less so.  Until we get some consensus in this area and update the 52-16 and perhaps the 52-10 to give better guidance to the field, neither approach is definatively "wrong."


FWIW, the National Staff is currently working the issue, and will be sending officers to both Lackland and the USAFA to study how the AF sets the "look and feel" of BMT and Beast.  The plan is to develop standards and tools that would allow CP volunteers to implement a challenging program that is appropriate to our 13-15 year old training audience.


Ned Lee
National CP Advisor
(And retired Infantry officer)

It's not about military versus not military. It actually has nothing to do with the military.

As a cadet progresses through the program, is that at all meaningful? Is it just about time served & maybe positions held, or does each milestone (maybe even achievement) actually represent a definable skill level that the person has reached?

The military seems to believe it's a definable skill level, which is also reached through four years of JROTC, or eagle scout. And, they believe that skill level is on par with E-3.

The CAP cadet program was founded to increase, through education & military exposure, the pool of candidates for military aviation service. The military continues to support the CAP cadet program through to today because we in fact continue that same mission. When we increase the number of people in the population that are capable of serving at an E-3 level right from the start, that's an advantage for them, and that's what their investment is all about.

We have a responsibility as leaders to respond to that investment by our sponsor. We have a responsibility to our cadets to preserve that E-3 reward for them if they choose that path by guaranteeing those standards are upheld.

CAP isn't going to define the goal of the program as producing E-3 skilled cadets at the Mitchell level. They're going to define the characteristics of that skill level & state those as the training objective. That's what you'll see in the reg.

The reason I point out the E-3 association is to lock in that standard level & defy trends along a slippery slope to soften the program away from that. I refuse to operate a program that pencil whips kids though on lowered standards. Some of that happens because of our failure as leaders, some of it happens because we don't want to leave kids behind. It doesn't really matter though. The standards are there, and it's our solemn duty to ensure they're met, regardless of the quality of cadet staff we have to assist us in that mission.

Does that make more sense?

[mynetdude]

I didnt read the previous posts, but I dont know if a "Senior Member" Encamment is a good idea. The cadet program has a different objective than the senior member program. The cadet programis designed to teach leadership and build character in a military and aviation environment. The senior member program is designed to provide Search and rescue services to customers. I

I cant really see having 50-60 year old men wakingup at 0500 and doing PT and marching in formation. 

I agree, but that isn't what we are really talking about.  We're talking about our experiences as a new member who have gone to encampment. And a bit of encampment variety talk as well .

[mynetdude]

I'd like to hear about senior members/officers who were relatively new to CAP and went on their first encampment in the first year they were in.  I did, I joined in October of '06 went to encampment in July of '07.

I wouldn't say I had a blast, but my experience was a positive one overall.  Encampment wasn't for senior members anyway, it was for cadets and we are there to support them, guide them and maintain their well being/safety.

I got to learn a lot and I was the only 2d Lt at encampment last year being my first year.  And I got to get into trouble by my superior who was my squadron commander at my home unit and my supervisor for the encampment purpose which he was the chief TAC.

What was your experience as a new member and on your first encampment?  I met a few people, although more than half of them I already knew from prior activities leading up to the encampment or they were from my home unit.

Yeah, like you said, Encampments arent really a Senior Member activity. There is no real "experience" for SM's. I grew up in CAP and have been to encampments as a cadet and SM. I am a cadet Programs specialty track officer.

But for Sewniors, it is a good way to get to knowother SM's in your Wing. Especially if you are a CP officer. Youcan get new ideas and help with your Squadron program

Like most of us point out, encampment isn't for SMs it would be neat to have something that is for SMs that is exhillarating like encampment. Sure we have wing conferences, region conferences IACE/NCSA but then again IACE/NCSA is more for cadets the only exception is NBB would be more for SMs?

The only NCSA that is geared only towards adults is NESA Mission Aircrew, which requires age 18+. Last year we had 1 cadet in the school.

Not that NCSA's should be geared towards our SM's anyway. They're National Cadet Special Activities

Oh yeah forgot about NESA, NBB sees a lot of cadets I am sure but NBB isn't really an encampment it is more of a very large ES mission according to what the NBB webpage says about NBB.

[DNall]

the adult prm is not about ES. Not any more than the cadet pgm is. I realize for practical purposes that more adults are involve in ES & more areas of it, but that's not the focus. It's a three mission pgm. There is an adult AE pgm that's supposed to be running, and the adult pgm is there to delvier leadership developmental trng in the form of PD & specialty track progression.

[Chappie]

I'd like to hear about senior members/officers who were relatively new to CAP and went on their first encampment in the first year they were in.  I did, I joined in October of '06 went to encampment in July of '07.

I wouldn't say I had a blast, but my experience was a positive one overall.  Encampment wasn't for senior members anyway, it was for cadets and we are there to support them, guide them and maintain their well being/safety.

I got to learn a lot and I was the only 2d Lt at encampment last year being my first year.  And I got to get into trouble by my superior who was my squadron commander at my home unit and my supervisor for the encampment purpose which he was the chief TAC.

What was your experience as a new member and on your first encampment?  I met a few people, although more than half of them I already knew from prior activities leading up to the encampment or they were from my home unit.

Yeah, like you said, Encampments arent really a Senior Member activity. There is no real "experience" for SM's. I grew up in CAP and have been to encampments as a cadet and SM. I am a cadet Programs specialty track officer.

But for Sewniors, it is a good way to get to knowother SM's in your Wing. Especially if you are a CP officer. Youcan get new ideas and help with your Squadron program

Like most of us point out, encampment isn't for SMs it would be neat to have something that is for SMs that is exhillarating like encampment. Sure we have wing conferences, region conferences IACE/NCSA but then again IACE/NCSA is more for cadets the only exception is NBB would be more for SMs?

My first exposure to Encampment was as a prospective Chaplain (membership/appointment pending).   It certainly had a different "feel" about it than all the "Youth Summer Camps" I had either planned or served on staff.   I concur that Encampment is not geared for the SM's as it is "cadet-propelled".   However, if you have been a staff member for several years, in addition to the feeling that you have contributed to a great program, there are at least two things that you experience: 1) Since a majority of the staff are veterans of many encampments - there is a cohensive team in place almost from day one and also a sense of a "family reunion".   I look forward to that one-week each summer because I get to work with and hang out with some great people that I only get to see on few occassions throughout the year; and, 2) the opportunity to watch cadets grow and mature throughout their CAP careers.   To see a cadet become the Encampment Commander or a Squadron Commander and remember that a couple of years prior they were a homesick basic cadet that wanted to go home or was struggling to adjust to the structure and regimen, is a real joy. 

A SM Encampment???  Now that would be an interesting event.   However, I could see myself being part of a SM Drill Team like this one: http://www.movierush.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ee48d0b7d48c591b8f43

[mynetdude]

If the goal is to get them to E-3 in a week, thats a bit overboard thats A LOT to put them through in a week's time that is what regular squadron attendance at your home unit is for (hopefully!).  Yes indeed, encampment is just one of those things they should do for immersion and improvement.

I said their cadet program through mitchell PLUS encampment should equal E-3 capability level excluding service specific items (shooting, WTT, etc). Encampment should be the intensive immersion portion of that experience.

i know it's too short a time, but that's what we got. last time out my Sq & flt staffs were pretty decent & they didn't have their crap together till the last couple days. So, they weren't successfully training anyone till then. That means those basic cadets got about .5 to 1 day of decent training before they were into lots of PIR practice, field-day, dining-in, etc. How is that successful?

I don't really care what anyone else says. I'll work within the system, but I'm going to drive the people around me hard toward that training objective. Cadets end up liking me for that by the end, but I don't care about that. The staff making selections knows that about me going in & they choose to select me.

Yeah I remember at encampment the cadet staff got it figured out by Tuesday of that week and camp would soon be over on Saturday the problem was pass in review was on Friday you really only had 2 days left .

IMHO 2 week encampments might be a bit more fun... whether or not kids could handle that is another subject matter.

[mynetdude]

I'd like to hear about senior members/officers who were relatively new to CAP and went on their first encampment in the first year they were in.  I did, I joined in October of '06 went to encampment in July of '07.

I wouldn't say I had a blast, but my experience was a positive one overall.  Encampment wasn't for senior members anyway, it was for cadets and we are there to support them, guide them and maintain their well being/safety.

I got to learn a lot and I was the only 2d Lt at encampment last year being my first year.  And I got to get into trouble by my superior who was my squadron commander at my home unit and my supervisor for the encampment purpose which he was the chief TAC.

What was your experience as a new member and on your first encampment?  I met a few people, although more than half of them I already knew from prior activities leading up to the encampment or they were from my home unit.

Yeah, like you said, Encampments arent really a Senior Member activity. There is no real "experience" for SM's. I grew up in CAP and have been to encampments as a cadet and SM. I am a cadet Programs specialty track officer.

But for Sewniors, it is a good way to get to knowother SM's in your Wing. Especially if you are a CP officer. Youcan get new ideas and help with your Squadron program

Like most of us point out, encampment isn't for SMs it would be neat to have something that is for SMs that is exhillarating like encampment. Sure we have wing conferences, region conferences IACE/NCSA but then again IACE/NCSA is more for cadets the only exception is NBB would be more for SMs?

My first exposure to Encampment was as a prospective Chaplain (membership/appointment pending).   It certainly had a different "feel" about it than all the "Youth Summer Camps" I had either planned or served on staff.   I concur that Encampment is not geared for the SM's as it is "cadet-propelled".   However, if you have been a staff member for several years, in addition to the feeling that you have contributed to a great program, there are at least two things that you experience: 1) Since a majority of the staff are veterans of many encampments - there is a cohensive team in place almost from day one and also a sense of a "family reunion".   I look forward to that one-week each summer because I get to work with and hang out with some great people that I only get to see on few occassions throughout the year; and, 2) the opportunity to watch cadets grow and mature throughout their CAP careers.   To see a cadet become the Encampment Commander or a Squadron Commander and remember that a couple of years prior they were a homesick basic cadet that wanted to go home or was struggling to adjust to the structure and regimen, is a real joy. 

A SM Encampment???  Now that would be an interesting event.   However, I could see myself being part of a SM Drill Team like this one: http://www.movierush.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ee48d0b7d48c591b8f43

LOLz Lawn chair drill team they should allow a bit of oddities humor at cadet encampments to do something like this after their pass in review

[Eclipse]

the adult prm is not about ES. Not any more than the cadet pgm is. I realize for practical purposes that more adults are involve in ES & more areas of it, but that's not the focus. It's a three mission pgm. There is an adult AE pgm that's supposed to be running, and the adult pgm is there to delvier leadership developmental trng in the form of PD & specialty track progression.

Sorry, disagree.

Remove ES & CP from a senior member's activities, and there is no reason to belong.

While CAP works hard to train adult members as leaders, and those same skills transfer quite nicely to the "real" world, CAP is not the "Official Auxiliary of the Kellogg School of Management", and training leaders (in the general sense) is not one of its fundamental missions.

I cannot think of a single reason to belong to CAP if you have chosen not to be involved in ES or the CP.  There's nothing left of any substance.

[mynetdude]

the adult prm is not about ES. Not any more than the cadet pgm is. I realize for practical purposes that more adults are involve in ES & more areas of it, but that's not the focus. It's a three mission pgm. There is an adult AE pgm that's supposed to be running, and the adult pgm is there to delvier leadership developmental trng in the form of PD & specialty track progression.

Sorry, disagree.

Remove ES & CP from a senior member's activities, and there is no reason to belong.

While CAP works hard to train adult members as leaders, and those same skills transfer quite nicely to the "real" world, CAP is not the "Official Auxiliary of the Kellogg School of management", and training leaders (in the general sense) is not one of its fundamental missions.

I cannot think of a single reason to belong to CAP if yo have chosen not to be involved in ES or the CP.  There's nothing left of any substance.

well if you're talking about day to day activities that is different than encampment/NCSAs.  I agree ES is more of an adult/SM thing, well it seems to be anyway as adults are the only ones that can be in the aircraft for a search.  While cadets are allowed to participate in ES, their primary responsibility is to focus on their CP and partake in ES when they have time.

I don't really see CP as an adult thing, the cadets run most of that on their own the only time adults are needed is for supervision and activity support.  Our unit does AE for both seniors and cadets together "show & Tell" (also known as a "featurette") we have a former member who comes as a guest speaker to show off AE stuff. So us adults get a bit of AE as well .

[jimmydeanno]

I agree ES is more of an adult/SM thing, well it seems to be anyway as adults are the only ones that can be in the aircraft for a search. 

See page 10: http://www.cap.gov/documents/CAP_Volunteer_MarApr_2007_lores.pdf

[Ned]

I don't really see CP as an adult thing, the cadets run most of that on their own the only time adults are needed is for supervision and activity support. 

While a well-run cadet program does indeed have cadets doing most of the "hands-on" training (as well as much of the planning and scheduling), I strongly disagree with the notion that seniors are only needed for "supervision and activity support."

That is the "babysitting and safety officer" paradigm that discourages some terrific seniors from engaging in CP.  And that just hurts the cadets.

Well trained CP seniors are vital to the success of the program.  They actively mentor and train cadets. 

Sure, a senior should normally not be the primary instructor for drill and ceremonies, but a senior should absolutely be working closely with the cadet staff in developing the unit's curricula.  The DCC normally wouldn't be measuring the position of insiginia on a cadets uniform during an inspection, but is critical in working with that cadet staff in setting the "look and feel" of that inspection.

It is a senior member -- not a cadet -- who decides when a cadet is ready for promotion.  It is also a senior that decides which cadet(s) applications are forwarded favorably for NCSAs, scholarships, etc. 

The cadet commander and her/his staff are primarily responsble for training the lower-ranking troops, but who trains the cadet commander?  Answer -- the CP seniors at the unit level.

If all we needed were babysitters and van drivers, our life would certainly be easier.  But we could not continue to have a highly successful cadet program without our dedicated and involved CP officers.

Ned Lee
National CP Advisor

[DNall]

^ yes & no. Certainly you're right that generally the adult officer should not be doing those junior NCO roles. Either you already have a cadet competent on that command level or you don't. If you do then you need to teach them how to do it & supervise to ensure it's done correctly. If you don't, then you assume those roles till you can create a cadet competent at that level.

Which is what this says:
http://level2.cap.gov/documents/P052_015.pdf

However, the mission is reaching the training objective. I'm not going to allow a cadet NCO to teach a flight the wrong way so they can all fail & that one kid can learn a lesson from it. School is not about teachers becoming better at their job through experience, it's about students learning to the defined standard. If I need to intervene because that's the only way the instruction will effectively move to the student, then that's what's going to happen. I'll be slick about it so the NCO retains their authority, but I'm not going to allow my people to be set up for failure.

Generally though, I got much higher level stuff to worry about.

[flyguy06]

I'd like to hear about senior members/officers who were relatively new to CAP and went on their first encampment in the first year they were in.  I did, I joined in October of '06 went to encampment in July of '07.

I wouldn't say I had a blast, but my experience was a positive one overall.  Encampment wasn't for senior members anyway, it was for cadets and we are there to support them, guide them and maintain their well being/safety.

I got to learn a lot and I was the only 2d Lt at encampment last year being my first year.  And I got to get into trouble by my superior who was my squadron commander at my home unit and my supervisor for the encampment purpose which he was the chief TAC.

What was your experience as a new member and on your first encampment?  I met a few people, although more than half of them I already knew from prior activities leading up to the encampment or they were from my home unit.

Yeah, like you said, Encampments arent really a Senior Member activity. There is no real "experience" for SM's. I grew up in CAP and have been to encampments as a cadet and SM. I am a cadet Programs specialty track officer.

But for Sewniors, it is a good way to get to knowother SM's in your Wing. Especially if you are a CP officer. Youcan get new ideas and help with your Squadron program

Like most of us point out, encampment isn't for SMs it would be neat to have something that is for SMs that is exhillarating like encampment. Sure we have wing conferences, region conferences IACE/NCSA but then again IACE/NCSA is more for cadets the only exception is NBB would be more for SMs?

My first exposure to Encampment was as a prospective Chaplain (membership/appointment pending).   It certainly had a different "feel" about it than all the "Youth Summer Camps" I had either planned or served on staff.   I concur that Encampment is not geared for the SM's as it is "cadet-propelled".   However, if you have been a staff member for several years, in addition to the feeling that you have contributed to a great program, there are at least two things that you experience: 1) Since a majority of the staff are veterans of many encampments - there is a cohensive team in place almost from day one and also a sense of a "family reunion".   I look forward to that one-week each summer because I get to work with and hang out with some great people that I only get to see on few occassions throughout the year; and, 2) the opportunity to watch cadets grow and mature throughout their CAP careers.   To see a cadet become the Encampment Commander or a Squadron Commander and remember that a couple of years prior they were a homesick basic cadet that wanted to go home or was struggling to adjust to the structure and regimen, is a real joy. 

A SM Encampment???  Now that would be an interesting event.   However, I could see myself being part of a SM Drill Team like this one: http://www.movierush.com/view_video.php?viewkey=ee48d0b7d48c591b8f43

I agree. It is sort of like a family reunion

[flyguy06]

I don't really see CP as an adult thing, the cadets run most of that on their own the only time adults are needed is for supervision and activity support. 

While a well-run cadet program does indeed have cadets doing most of the "hands-on" training (as well as much of the planning and scheduling), I strongly disagree with the notion that seniors are only needed for "supervision and activity support."

That is the "babysitting and safety officer" paradigm that discourages some terrific seniors from engaging in CP.  And that just hurts the cadets.

Well trained CP seniors are vital to the success of the program.  They actively mentor and train cadets. 

Sure, a senior should normally not be the primary instructor for drill and ceremonies, but a senior should absolutely be working closely with the cadet staff in developing the unit's curricula.  The DCC normally wouldn't be measuring the position of insiginia on a cadets uniform during an inspection, but is critical in working with that cadet staff in setting the "look and feel" of that inspection.

It is a senior member -- not a cadet -- who decides when a cadet is ready for promotion.  It is also a senior that decides which cadet(s) applications are forwarded favorably for NCSAs, scholarships, etc. 

The cadet commander and her/his staff are primarily responsble for training the lower-ranking troops, but who trains the cadet commander?  Answer -- the CP seniors at the unit level.

If all we needed were babysitters and van drivers, our life would certainly be easier.  But we could not continue to have a highly successful cadet program without our dedicated and involved CP officers.

Ned Lee
National CP Advisor

I totally agree with this statement. I am a very involved SM. My job as DCC is to train the cadet staff and ensure they train the cadet basics to standard.

[DNall]

^ yes exactly, and that means there are times when you do have to intervene in training to ensure the standard is met, in some limited cases even conducting training yourself. That does mean you also need to do training with your staff so this doesn't become a long-term issue. Again, ref'ing CAPP52-15.

All of this being VERY far from this:

I don't really see CP as an adult thing, the cadets run most of that on their own the only time adults are needed is for supervision and activity support. 

It's a team effort. The supervisor is there to supervise & guarantee the standard, but when necessary needs to dig in with the troops (cadet staff) & make sure the job gets done right so we set our people up for success rather than tolerating failure built on failure merely because the cadet staff needs to learn.

[mynetdude]

I'm still a 2nd Lt, and I like these discussion forums and I have learned a lot from it. The views and perspectives have helped and showed me the difference in variety and options when it comes to training, CP, ES and so forth.

You all probably wonder why I only see it one way at the moment, there are two reasons: experience and well what I have been taught/seen so again experience and the fact that is how it is somewhat done at our sq.

I never see our DCC do D&C with the cadets or at least instruct/intervene when needed.  We have one cadet who is really good at D&C and has finally made c/2Lt , yeah sure I know that our DCC teaches classes, sits on the PRB, arranges activities and sometimes goes to them.  Works with the cadet staff, and does some of her own training as well.

I'm definitely looking forward to visiting some other squadrons in 2008/2009 to get a variety immersion.  I have seen stuff done at encampment done entirely different than done at our home unit even that still bewilders me still so I know I need to pay another encampment a visit.

Yes I know there is specific regulation and materials that explain what must be done, how it must be done, rules and procedures to do it all however IMHO I don't think it helps a SM/Officer to just read the regs, books, watch cadets do it and do it with them if they don't get the training from a knowledgeable person who can teach it correctly (not a cadet) so hopefully you have someone who is in the military or was in the military and still knows their D&C well enough to teach you so you can know it like clockwork as a DCC.

There are a lot of members in my sq who do not have military experience and plenty who do.  I for one do not, I can count at least 3 others who have though and possibly 1-2 more and I know for sure the DCC and her assistant (whom is related to her) AFAIK do not have military experience; not having military experience does not mean you can't do the job however IMHO without practical immersion training as you would get as a cadet I think its important for a DCC other than just learning it from another former military guy who has been out of the military for some 20 years or reading the regs and D&C guide with pictures.

Heck if our squadron would be more "militarilistic" I'll bet I'd learn a lot more but they are lax in that area except for cadets.  I am learning, but I think I am not getting enough and I want more of it.

That being said yes I did learn a lot from the cadets at encampment, but it didn't apply to me practically/hands on which is one of the reasons I declined to go to encampment this year, I do not blame the encampment for anything it is not their fault because like I said encampment is more for cadets while it is a "reunion" for SMs/Officers and at the same time to help the cadets in their training .

[DNall]

Being in the military doesn't mean you know DnC.

It's done differently in each service, so it's probably easier for you to learn from scratch, versus I have to remember what I learned, then forget elements of it, learn a new system, then keep the two straight.

Plus, I had two total hours of DnC instruction at basic, and never did it again. We stand formations where we're kind of at ease or attention, but that's about it. Unless you're a drill sgt or have some ceremonial duty, chances are you're more likely to teach something wrong than know what you're doing.

DnC is about tradition & ceremony. It's not daily life in the military. It's used as a very basic introductory tool to teach teamwork & discipline. Once they have those concepts down, regardless of how well they march, we (in the military) move on to demonstrating those qualities in more meaningful training areas.

I do know my DnC, but I know it from being a CP officer, not from being in the Army. That a point of professional pride. You need to be a subject matter expert on anything you expect your people to learn/know. If you aren't, then you have no business supervising or leading them. That takes time & training, but eventually you get it.

As you mention, there are other more important aspects of a military background. Absolute professionalism, personal responsibility, discipline, accountability, core values, real leadership training & experience, etc are all essential to being a good CAP officer & particularly in CP. Hanging around int he military a few years once upon a time doesn't guarantee those things, being successful in a military career tends to be a pretty good indicator though. Likewise, all those things can be present in a civilian. It's just not normally the case that they're so essential to daily life & it takes some experience in a military-based program like ours to get them all functioning together on a high level. If your unit doesn't work like that, that's unfortunate, cause it really isn't about wearing uniforms & saluting each other.

If you get a chance, you might try visiting some other Wing's encampments as well. I've found that very instructive over the years.

[flyguy06]

D&C isnt that much diferent between the services. Just minor things. I am inthe military and Because my Squadron s so small, Ido actually drill the cadets and march them. Until Iget a cadet NCO I have to.

I give the cadets a chance to lead and drill also though. I give the cadets the schedule and they carry it out.

Army D&C is not much different from AF D&C. Only Dres Right Dress and column marching are  few minor differences.

[DNall]

columns are the most noticable thing, but there are many other difference as well. Particularly the way commands are called. Inspection procedures & PT formation are completely different.

[mikeylikey]

^ Especially between the Air Force and Army, there are so many "small" details.  Since both shared a common history, I would imagine that many of those differences were "just created" by Airman to be different. 

[flyguy06]

columns are the most noticable thing, but there are many other difference as well. Particularly the way commands are called. Inspection procedures & PT formation are completely different.

My PT formations are no different. I use the box style formations. There is no reg on it, so I go with what I know

[DNall]

there's a definite way to do it in both army & af. it ends up looking the same but the procedure to get there & back are quite a bit different. The AF way is actually a lot more efficient & uses standard drill commands versus dif the army (extend/assemble).

the problem is there are so many minor difs that you really have to be an expert to know what's what. That leads to a lot of cadets being taught the wrong way, which is the only reason we do drill at encampment is fixing those kinds of problems.

[Dutchboy]

My first encampment I was the Mess Officer (don't figure) and I fed about 120 people. I did it all. The cooking and the dishes. cleaning most of the dining hall also. Being a Tac might be hard work, but you should try what I do, every year. Because of how well everyone likes my cooking, I actually order everything and organize the "Mess".

[mynetdude]

My first encampment I was the Mess Officer (don't figure) and I fed about 120 people. I did it all. The cooking and the dishes. cleaning most of the dining hall also. Being a Tac might be hard work, but you should try what I do, every year. Because of how well everyone likes my cooking, I actually order everything and organize the "Mess".

Last year we had a cadet who got involved in the mess hall with the ANG staff who were running it. He wasn't really the mess officer, he just helped out and when the basics/cadet staff were out he would help with clean up and moping when there wasn't much traffic in the building and helped supervise cadets who were assigned to the mess hall for corrective actions (of course a senior member had to also be present when this happened).

[mikeylikey]

I am sorry to say but assigning Cadet to mess hall as staff is silly.  They are paying to be there, and unless they are doing more than clearing trays and moping the floor, it is a waste of that cadets time.

When I did ENC, only "bad" cadets would end up working mess hall duty.  Those types were the ones who decided not to wake up for PT, missed transportation and failed to adhere to the rules.  Big wakeup call when you get to clean up after 250-300 people and then scrub garbage cans!

[Eeyore]

We had each flight take two turns taking mess hall duties. With the whole flight working it usually only took about 15-30 minutes for the hall to be clean and the dishes to be done.

Adds to the whole attention to details and teamwork theme.

[mynetdude]

I am sorry to say but assigning Cadet to mess hall as staff is silly.  They are paying to be there, and unless they are doing more than clearing trays and moping the floor, it is a waste of that cadets time.

Yeah and I am sure your attention to detail will prove otherwise , I never said they were assigned.  Infact no one was assigned, one of our cadet staff just decided to help with the mess hall stuff on his own so the encampment staff was fine with that as long as the ANG guys were.

Only one cadet got assigned to the mess hall for misconduct, I am sure as heck I probably would have gotten the same duty assignment had I woke up late the next day after I got my chops busted and fortunately I was up on time and no I am not a cadet .

[DNall]

We had each flight take two turns taking mess hall duties. With the whole flight working it usually only took about 15-30 minutes for the hall to be clean and the dishes to be done.

Last one I was at we had 2 cadets assigned on staff. They served & directed. I'd very much agree that they shouldn't have to pay to do that duty. They did supervise the duty flight though.

The first flight (rotated each meal) finished eating & then took over serving & cleaning during & after chow. Worked out very well. I have to give a lot of credit to one of our other TACs (Lt Owens) who re-arranged the chow hall & created a VERY efficient flowing system. It's absolutely priceless to have a couple real NCOs around fixing tactical problems rather than everyone trying to look at the bigger picture. His system gave everyone time to eat & put the whole encampment thru the DFAC in half the time. Also put flt TAC with Flt/CC & Sgt for each meal, which was a real nice touch.