Blue Beret and SAR ribbon

[lordmonar]

I reject your assertion that "looking for loophole" is a failure in integrity.

Exploiting a loophole is essentially the definition of lack of integrity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loophole
"A loophole is an ambiguity or inadequacy in a system, such as a law or security, which can be used to circumvent or otherwise avoid the intent, implied or explicitly stated, of the system. Loopholes are searched for and used strategically in a variety of circumstances, including taxes, elections, politics, the criminal justice system, or in breaches of security, or a response to one's civil liberties."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/loophole
"A way of escaping a difficulty, especially an omission or ambiguity in the wording of a contract or law that provides a means of evading compliance."

Your point about company rules about having approval is a prime example of just what I am talking about....there are rules.....you should not be extending your sortie for the sole purpose of getting that six extra minutes just to get the another sortie credit.....but if you do get that 0.1 hour.....it counts.....that's the rule.

The reg is clear "per 4 hours", but only on extended duration.

Per 4, not per sortie, or per hour, per 4.

.1 is 237.6 minutes short of 4.

If the same team came back at 4.0, did another full work up and were recalled after .1 then they get two,
but 4.1 = one sortie.

Again.....I reject your assertion that exploiting a loophole is in and of itself unethical.
I also call you on using the "ethical" argument in discussing our different interpretations of the regs.

We may differ on what the standard is.....as written....but it is not because I or anyone else is unethical.  It is a difference in interpretation.

This bias of yours has surfaced before....as in when you justified your interpretation as a way of stopping people from extending their sortie just to get more credit.

We want people to participate in SAR.   We want to recognize them.  Why in the FSM's Green Earth would we make it harder for someone to get credit for doing a long mission then for someone just doing out and backs?   That simply makes no sense to me.

[Eclipse]

Again.....I reject your assertion that exploiting a loophole is in and of itself unethical.

I hazard you'd be in the minority on this.  Most people consider exploiting loopholes to be decidedly not cricket.

Why in the FSM's Green Earth would we make it harder for someone to get credit for doing a long mission then for someone just doing out and backs?   That simply makes no sense to me.

For starters, a 4.1 is not, by either common sense, or the actual definition a LDM.  By the definition of 39-3, those start at 8 hours.

And I would also hazard it's for the exact reason I indicated, to make the requirements clear.  Fudging a .1, or a .5, or even a whole hour
is pretty easy compared with adding an additional 4 to a sortie. I'd say in the average cluster...wing-level SAREx...a lot of sorties
are in the 4-hour range by the time they get there and back and wander around a bit.  Dragging your feet on lunch or jaw-jacking in the
parking lot while watching the clock should not earn a second ribbon.

[lordmonar]

Well I guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree.

I think I feel a KB question coming. 

[Storm Chaser]

If you get an answer from KB, would you please post it here? Thanks.

[lordmonar]

If you get an answer from KB, would you please post it here? Thanks.

KB question sent.   I will post results.

[Spaceman3750]

You cannot be tasked for more than 3 sorties in a 24 hour period.

The reg in question governs ribbons, not GT duty day. AFAIK, outside of the expectation that GT3s will only be self sufficient for 24 hours, there is no duty day limit for GTMs. All this reg does is make it so that you are only eligible for 3 sorties a day for ribbon purposes.

[Eclipse]

You cannot be tasked for more than 3 sorties in a 24 hour period.

The reg in question governs ribbons, not GT duty day. AFAIK, outside of the expectation that GT3s will only be self sufficient for 24 hours, there is no duty day limit for GTMs. All this reg does is make it so that you are only eligible for 3 sorties a day for ribbon purposes.

Correct.

[lordmonar]

You cannot be tasked for more than 3 sorties in a 24 hour period.

The reg in question governs ribbons, not GT duty day. AFAIK, outside of the expectation that GT3s will only be self sufficient for 24 hours, there is no duty day limit for GTMs. All this reg does is make it so that you are only eligible for 3 sorties a day for ribbon purposes.

ICS has some assumptions and guidelines built into it.....but you are correct there is no hard duty day AFAIK.

[Storm Chaser]

We've been discussing how much time constitutes a second sortie for ground personnel conducting "hazardous duties", but what about those performing "non-hazardous duties", i.e. mission base personnel? CAPR 39-1 says that they "may be credited with one sortie for each 8 hours of participation, but not to exceed two sorties for any 24-hour period." Does that mean that an ELT search mission that lasts 6 hours doesn't credit mission base personnel as it falls under the 8 hours specified in CAPR 39-3? And what constitutes two sorties in a day? 16 hours? Or anything after the first 8 hours?

[Eclipse]

It's up to the IC - we've always done at least one if you're signed in.

[husker]

To address the second point of Cadet Derasmo having qualifications that he is not age-appropriate for, he can train all day long but it won't count because he is still under 18. I had a similar issue that I finally argued to successful completion with the unit CC and LTC Long. Cadet High Drag was "told by someone at NESA that even though he was 15 he could act as GTL as long as there was a qualified SM along." Wrong. Big tall glass of nope. He continued to argue with both me and the unit CC until I showed him proof that he was wrong. Nothing he will "train" for will count once he hits 18. He will have to prove it on paper just like he was brand new, complete with new sorties as a GTL-T. End of story. Someone did him a great injustice by leading him on like that.

I do recall helping Garibaldi with his argument.  If you are under 18, you cannot train nor act as as a GTL.  Every year, I have cadets that want to train in the NESA GTL school who are just a few weeks (or even days) shy of 18.   I do not allow anyone into the school unless they meet the SQTR prerequisites, one of which is the age requirement.

Someone else in this thread brought up another issue that is germane to this discussion - the concept of "task overlaps."  In the current Ground Team curriculum, there are several of these issues - tasks that are explicitly required in multiple levels of ratings.  This has caused several issues, one of which is well documented here with the OP.  One of my goals for a new curriculum is to explicitly define tasks only at one level.

[Eclipse]

I would think that this could be fixed with programming.

Under 18 doesn't allow the task to be entered or go green.

The same should go for Aircrew tasks.

[lordmonar]

It is six of one....half dozen of the of the other.

Who cares if someone under age is getting signed off on tasks early?   What is the harm?   Until the two practical sorties ore completed he cannot be signed off on the rating.  Until all the prereqs are completed he cannot actually deploy in an aircraft or with a team as a trainee.

[Eclipse]

Again, integrity.  In this case of the system.

The regs are there "because", like anything else, if they were deemed inappropriate or incorrect, they
should be changed by NHQ.  Until then, they are what they are, and looking the other way
and saying "who cares" teaches the lesson that you can game the system and it's "OK".

They watch everything we do, and learn even when we don't expect them to.

[Walkman]

I'd wager we have a decent amount of older but not yet 18 year old cadets that have completed GTM 3,2,1 and are very competent in their abilities and want to keep moving up the GT ladder to GTL. I wouldn't start them on GTL specific tasks (noting the current overlap), but to keep them engaged, I'd put them in teaching/mentoring situations. Assign them as Asst. ESO/ESTO, or get have them be a primary GT instructor. There's also opportunites for them to plan training events and activities and lead them as well. Every year MIWG has Operation Wolverine which is a multi-day cadet run SAREX with SM oversight. Cadets pretty much run the whole event. This is a great oportunity for that truly high-speed 16 year old to sink their teeth into. We also host a week long SAR Academy where cadets can be staff instructors.

[lordmonar]

Well.....got my answer.

And it is worse then I thought.

Knowledgebase@capnhq.gov
Today at 6:32 AM
To:  lordmonar@yahoo.com


Recently you requested personal assistance from our on-line support center. Below is a summary of your request and our response.

If this issue is not resolved to your satisfaction, you may reopen it within the next 7 days.

Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.

Subject
---------------------------------------------------------------
SAR Ribbon Sortie


Discussion Thread
---------------------------------------------------------------
Response Via Email(KB Manager) - 04/17/2014 06:32 AM
Per CAPR 39-3, personnel may be credited with one sortie for each 4 hours.  If a member performs hazardous ground duties for 4.1 hours they will receive credit for 1 sortie.  If they perform duties for less than 4 hours, they receive 0 sorties credit.

For non-hazardous ground duties, the requirement is 8 hours of participation.  Less than 8 hours does not receive credit.

c. Air Search and Rescue Ribbon. Participate in at least 10 search and rescue sorties. A bronze clasp is awarded for each additional 10 sorties. All sorties must be in support of an actual search and rescue mission authorized by competent authority.
(1) Aircrew Members. A bronze three-bladed propeller device will be worn centered on Air Search and Rescue Ribbons earned as aircrew members.
(2) Ground Personnel. Credit given will be computed on the basis of time spent on a mission and the nature of the duties performed.
(a) Ground personnel performing hazardous duties such as ground rescue or ground search, may be credited with one sortie for each 4 hours of actual participation, but not to exceed three sorties in any 24-hour period.
(b) Ground personnel performing non-hazardous duties, such as base support or staff functions, may be credited with one sortie for each 8 hours of participation, but not to exceed two sorties for any 24-hour period.

Auto-Response - 04/16/2014 03:26 PM
Response appended

Customer By Web Form (z zz) - 04/16/2014 03:26 PM
Basically the question is......how many sorties are counted for the SAR ribbon for a sortie that lasts 4.1 hours and 8.1 hours?


In the regulation the definition of a sortie is unclear.

If, for instance a Ground Team sorties for less then 4 hours....it counts as one sortie.

If the sortie last for longer then 4 hours then......when does the 2d and 3rd sortie start and end?

One interpretation is that the second sortie starts at 4 hours and continues until the 8th hour when the third sort begins and ends at 12 hours.

Another interpretation is that you do not get credit for the second sortie until the 8th hour and the third sortie is credited at the 12th hour.

Question Reference #140416-000002]
---------------------------------------------------------------
    Date Created: 04/16/2014 03:26 PM
    Last Updated: 04/17/2014 06:32 AM
          Status: Solved

So.......a sortie is either 2 hours, 4 hours or 8 hours.   The "take off and a landing" or "out and back" don't matter if they are less then 2 hours (for air crew) or 4 hours (for ground teams) then those sorties don't count.

Mull on that one for a second. 

Looks like I got to do paper work to get my SAR ribbon revoked as I know some of my sorties were less then the minimum time.  ......heck!  My find took less only 3 hours!  I guess I should have stopped for dinner on the way back to the squadron!

[Eclipse]

Per CAPR 39-3, personnel may be credited with one sortie for each 4 hours.  If a member performs hazardous ground duties for 4.1 hours they will receive credit for 1 sortie.  If they perform duties for less than 4 hours, they receive 0 sorties credit.

For non-hazardous ground duties, the requirement is 8 hours of participation.  Less than 8 hours does not receive credit.

What?  What's the basis for this?

Of COURSE they get one sortie.  IT'S A SORTIE!  The time factor is only there for when it's MORE then 4 hours per.

This is why the KB is such a mess - people without the authority, or who are misinformed, make interpretations that only commanders should be making.

Ridiculous.

Any sortie is a sortie, regardless of the timing.

[lordmonar]

 

And this is why CAPTALK can be soooooo much fun!

[Storm Chaser]

Of course, a sortie is a sortie even if under 4 hours; it just doesn't count for the SAR Ribbon. Just like an 8-hour sortie is still >one< sortie as recorded in WIMRS, but receives credit for two sorties for the ribbon.

Thanks lordmonar for posting this KB response.

[Eclipse]

So to be clear.  Sortie #1 for SAR counts whether it's 10 minutes of 4 hours.

The issue becomes #2 & 3 on the day.

Anything else has no support anywhere.