Blue Beret and SAR ribbon

[Storm Chaser]

A sortie is either "wheels up / wheels down" (for aircrew).

Or "go / come back" for Ground Team & UDF.  The time issue only comes into play for extended duration
in the field, and then only as a function for the ribbon.

If you do a full work up and are recalled ten minutes later, that's a +1 on the ribbon.

If you go out and wind up in the field for 12 hours, or overnight, that's a single paperwork sortie and +3 for the ribbon.

I don't think anyone is confused about that.....but what about a 4.1 hour paperwork sortie?

Is that one sortie or two?

One.

It's one per 4 hours.  Until you hit "8" it's still one sortie.

Anything else would encourage people to stop for lunch on the way back to game the system.

Agree 100%.

[lordmonar]

A sortie is either "wheels up / wheels down" (for aircrew).

Or "go / come back" for Ground Team & UDF.  The time issue only comes into play for extended duration
in the field, and then only as a function for the ribbon.

If you do a full work up and are recalled ten minutes later, that's a +1 on the ribbon.

If you go out and wind up in the field for 12 hours, or overnight, that's a single paperwork sortie and +3 for the ribbon.

I don't think anyone is confused about that.....but what about a 4.1 hour paperwork sortie?

Is that one sortie or two?

One.

It's one per 4 hours.  Until you hit "8" it's still one sortie.

Anything else would encourage people to stop for lunch on the way back to game the system.

That makes no sense what so ever!

How can your 1 hour there and back count as one sortie but I would have to have 8 hours before I have two? 
Just make no logical sense.

[Eclipse]

Remember SETS are not signing off on a specialty.....just on tasks.......WING is the one who signs off the specialty.

All echelons and the SET have to approve mission tasks.  That's 3-4 people who are either misinformed
or just clicked,

[JeffDG]

I never said it was. But since this cadet has both exercise participations signed off in clear contradiction of CAPR 60-3, someone (i.e. the skills evaluator) hasn't been following the rules.

Well, that depends on when he did the Mission Participations.  He said he had all the tasks done 2 years ago, and that was before SETs had to "sign off" on things entered against their SET, or even SETs themselves were checked (except by approvers).

[Eclipse]

How can your 1 hour there and back count as one sortie but I would have to have 8 hours before I have two? 
Just make no logical sense.

There's no minimum time definition for a "sortie", only the 1-every 4 for the ribbon during extended duration missions.

[JeffDG]

Remember SETS are not signing off on a specialty.....just on tasks.......WING is the one who signs off the specialty.

All echelons and the SET have to approve mission tasks.  That's 3-4 people who are either misinformed
or just clicked,

No...just the SET approves tasks until the SQTR is complete...not until then do the echelon approvers even see it.

If someone signs off on your ability to keep a log, that just goes to the person doing the sign-off...it doesn't go to Unit-Group-Wing until the SQTR is done.

[Eclipse]

Remember SETS are not signing off on a specialty.....just on tasks.......WING is the one who signs off the specialty.

All echelons and the SET have to approve mission tasks.  That's 3-4 people who are either misinformed
or just clicked,

No...just the SET approves tasks until the SQTR is complete...not until then do the echelon approvers even see it.

If someone signs off on your ability to keep a log, that just goes to the person doing the sign-off...it doesn't go to Unit-Group-Wing until the SQTR is done.

Duh, yeah, you're right.

[JeffDG]

Remember SETS are not signing off on a specialty.....just on tasks.......WING is the one who signs off the specialty.

All echelons and the SET have to approve mission tasks.  That's 3-4 people who are either misinformed
or just clicked,

No...just the SET approves tasks until the SQTR is complete...not until then do the echelon approvers even see it.

If someone signs off on your ability to keep a log, that just goes to the person doing the sign-off...it doesn't go to Unit-Group-Wing until the SQTR is done.

Duh, yeah, you're right.

I get one right occasionally. 

[Luis R. Ramos]

LST-

Thanks for the warning.

My first instinct was to send this as a PM to some members. I did not follow it. I will be more careful in the future...

Flyer

[lordmonar]

Remember SETS are not signing off on a specialty.....just on tasks.......WING is the one who signs off the specialty.

All echelons and the SET have to approve mission tasks.  That's 3-4 people who are either misinformed
or just clicked,

Again......he may think he is trainee because he's got an E-service SQTR that has a bunch of tasks filled in.  He may have even gotten someone to sign off on a couple of tasks that were not on any other SQTR......but there is an argument that that is okay as well.....train as training presents itself.

And yes.....a lot of people just click OK and move on.

[SarDragon]

A sortie is either "wheels up / wheels down" (for aircrew).

Or "go / come back" for Ground Team & UDF.  The time issue only comes into play for extended duration
in the field, and then only as a function for the ribbon.

If you do a full work up and are recalled ten minutes later, that's a +1 on the ribbon.

If you go out and wind up in the field for 12 hours, or overnight, that's a single paperwork sortie and +3 for the ribbon.

I don't think anyone is confused about that.....but what about a 4.1 hour paperwork sortie?

Is that one sortie or two?

From a strict interpretation, it is probably two. From my personal ethical POV, I would call it one, and be done. YMMV.

[lordmonar]

A sortie is either "wheels up / wheels down" (for aircrew).

Or "go / come back" for Ground Team & UDF.  The time issue only comes into play for extended duration
in the field, and then only as a function for the ribbon.

If you do a full work up and are recalled ten minutes later, that's a +1 on the ribbon.

If you go out and wind up in the field for 12 hours, or overnight, that's a single paperwork sortie and +3 for the ribbon.

I don't think anyone is confused about that.....but what about a 4.1 hour paperwork sortie?

Is that one sortie or two?

From a strict interpretation, it is probably two. From my personal ethical POV, I would call it one, and be done. YMMV.

I admit that I am arguing for the sake of arguing a bit.    But it does matter.   If getting your people recognized for their good work is important.  And we all want to be professional and consistent in the way we do things.
It is important to know where one sortie ends and one begins.

It is not unethical to discuss what the standards are.   Nor is it unethical to make sure that you get credit for each and every sortie/hour coming to you.  No different then when you punch you time card to make sure that if you worked 0.1 hours over time....you get that time and half.....sure it is just six minutes at time and half......but it is yours by right and by law.

This is no different.

[Eclipse]

A lot of companies and unions have very specific rules for this exact issue, and would not allow someone to work
over their shift without prior approval.

As to the ethics, we're supposed to be teaching our cadets in have "integrity in all we do", looking for loopholes in the
regs just to add a ribbon fails that test.

[LSThiker]

"The key is to have fun, do a good job, learn some new skills, meet some new people......look at cool air planes.

The ribbons and medals will come when you've earned them."

Absolutely, I agree. I just have a few secondary goals I'm working on. Also, according to this year's FB page, if you are not a returning beret you can still apply as a Flight Commander. Obviously preference goes to returning berets however what are the odds of this happening? Thank you for your time.

Unless things have changed, quite good actually.  In fact, it happens when the flight commander is a first time attendee and the flight leader (pseudo flight sergeant) is a returning beret.

[lordmonar]

A lot of companies and unions have very specific rules for this exact issue, and would not allow someone to work
over their shift without prior approval.

As to the ethics, we're supposed to be teaching our cadets in have "integrity in all we do", looking for loopholes in the
regs just to add a ribbon fails that test.

I reject your assertion that "looking for loophole" is a failure in integrity.
Your point about company rules about having approval is a prime example of just what I am talking about....there are rules.....you should not be extending your sortie for the sole purpose of getting that six extra minutes just to get the another sortie credit.....but if you do get that 0.1 hour.....it counts.....that's the rule.

[Garibaldi]

A sortie is either "wheels up / wheels down" (for aircrew).

Or "go / come back" for Ground Team & UDF.  The time issue only comes into play for extended duration
in the field, and then only as a function for the ribbon.

If you do a full work up and are recalled ten minutes later, that's a +1 on the ribbon.

If you go out and wind up in the field for 12 hours, or overnight, that's a single paperwork sortie and +3 for the ribbon.

I don't think anyone is confused about that.....but what about a 4.1 hour paperwork sortie?

Is that one sortie or two?

One.

It's one per 4 hours.  Until you hit "8" it's still one sortie.

Anything else would encourage people to stop for lunch on the way back to game the system.

Anything from 10 minutes to 4 hours is one sortie. 4 to 8 hours should be 2, 8 to 12 should be 3. Maximum of 3 sorties in a 24 hour period with rests and meals in between. You cannot be tasked for more than 3 sorties in a 24 hour period. By looking at it, hours 4 to 8 SHOULD count as a second one, but if you are taken out of the field in hour 7, you get cheated IMO according to EclipseLogic (patent pending) since he looks at it as the first 4 hours as one, but anything less than 8 still counting as 1 until you hit that magic 8 hour mark. My interpretation is different from his, obviously, and if I am wrong, I will admit so. People can game the system, yes, but those sort of people should not be allowed to let their personal "glory" or "ribbon chasing" to interfere with the overall mission by claiming false data. At the end of the day, who is going to really give a turkey about that extra sortie in the real world? You can argue about it all day long and it will still come down to one person's interpretation of what constitutes Sortie #2.

To address the second point of Cadet Derasmo having qualifications that he is not age-appropriate for, he can train all day long but it won't count because he is still under 18. I had a similar issue that I finally argued to successful completion with the unit CC and LTC Long. Cadet High Drag was "told by someone at NESA that even though he was 15 he could act as GTL as long as there was a qualified SM along." Wrong. Big tall glass of nope. He continued to argue with both me and the unit CC until I showed him proof that he was wrong. Nothing he will "train" for will count once he hits 18. He will have to prove it on paper just like he was brand new, complete with new sorties as a GTL-T. End of story. Someone did him a great injustice by leading him on like that.

[Eclipse]

I reject your assertion that "looking for loophole" is a failure in integrity.

Exploiting a loophole is essentially the definition of lack of integrity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loophole
"A loophole is an ambiguity or inadequacy in a system, such as a law or security, which can be used to circumvent or otherwise avoid the intent, implied or explicitly stated, of the system. Loopholes are searched for and used strategically in a variety of circumstances, including taxes, elections, politics, the criminal justice system, or in breaches of security, or a response to one's civil liberties."

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/loophole
"A way of escaping a difficulty, especially an omission or ambiguity in the wording of a contract or law that provides a means of evading compliance."

Your point about company rules about having approval is a prime example of just what I am talking about....there are rules.....you should not be extending your sortie for the sole purpose of getting that six extra minutes just to get the another sortie credit.....but if you do get that 0.1 hour.....it counts.....that's the rule.

The reg is clear "per 4 hours", but only on extended duration.

Per 4, not per sortie, or per hour, per 4.

.1 is 237.6 minutes short of 4.

If the same team came back at 4.0, did another full work up and were recalled after .1 then they get two,
but 4.1 = one sortie.

[Storm Chaser]

but if you do get that 0.1 hour.....it counts.....that's the rule.

That's your interpretation (one which many others, including myself, disagree with). You have yet to prove that that's actually "the rule". That said, regulations should be better written to avoid these different interpretations. We need clarification from higher headquarters.

[Storm Chaser]

but if you do get that 0.1 hour.....it counts.....that's the rule.

That's your interpretation (one which many others, including myself, disagree with). You have yet to prove that that's actually "the rule". That said, regulations should be better written to avoid these different interpretations.

Instead of debating our different opinions, we need clarification from higher headquarters.

[Eclipse]

This was one of the reasons we started issuing Wing-level PAs for all missions to include the sorties awarded.

It removes the ambiguity below the Wing CC.