2011 HMRS

[GTCommando]

Well, the results are out, and I'm going to Hawk this year!  Anybody else going this year? Cadet or Officer Basic, or an advanced course? Which one?

     -GTCommando

[GroundHawg]

We have quite a few from my squadron going, one on staff, and Im considering a return after a 15 year hiatus.

[GTCommando]

Bump. Anyone going?

[BillB]

Several Florida Cadets I've talked to said that much of Hawk is useless training. No mountains to rappel down unless you want to rappel down an I-95 overpass. They would much rather see a Regional Special Activity designed for ground teams without all the bling Winter Hawk has no relationship to southern and west coast Wings. Hawk applies mainly to the northern tier of Wings and Rocky Mountain Region.
A Regional activity would be designed for the geography of the region and the goal of training groud teams and leaders. I wrote an ops plan for a Regional SAR activity years ago and also one specifically for Florida. A Hawk graduate would be totally lost when put into the Everglades since Hawk has no training for that situation. At one time there were two "ranger" programs in Florida, one for males and one for females. Both were very successful.

[JC004]

You may have better luck on CadetStuff for that kind of thing.  I hear attendance has been low anyway, so maybe over there.  It's mostly cadets anyway, so maybe CS.

[Eclipse]

Tonight on Discovery "Dual Survival II: HMRS VS. NESA"...

[davidsinn]

Tonight on Discovery "Dual Survival II: HMRS VS. NESA"...

I would pay money to see that...

[Spaceman3750]

Tonight on Discovery "Dual Survival II: HMRS VS. NESA"...

I would pay money to see that...

Me too.

NESA is way less about "survival training" and more about completing the already established GT curriculum. The only survival training I got at NESA was throwing a tarp over some paracord...

[sarmed1]

Several Florida Cadets I've talked to said that much of Hawk is useless training. No mountains to rappel down unless you want to rappel down an I-95 overpass. They would much rather see a Regional Special Activity designed for ground teams without all the bling Winter Hawk has no relationship to southern and west coast Wings. Hawk applies mainly to the northern tier of Wings and Rocky Mountain Region.
A Regional activity would be designed for the geography of the region and the goal of training groud teams and leaders. I wrote an ops plan for a Regional SAR activity years ago and also one specifically for Florida. A Hawk graduate would be totally lost when put into the Everglades since Hawk has no training for that situation. At one time there were two "ranger" programs in Florida, one for males and one for females. Both were very successful.

I think you perception in regards to relevance is somewhat skewed:
No but there are holes, ditches and ravines.... all of which the knowedge you would gain more from building hauling and lowering systems (steep terrain evacuation vs high angle) to move team memeber, equipment or personnel on something steeper than you can safely walk (imagine damp Florida ground after a dozen people try to crab walk it up and down)...

There was a personal mission by memebrs of HMRS to go to California to search for a former member who disapeared while paragliding....they woke up to abaout a foot of snow and well below freezing temps (I think it had been 60's the day before) I have been on missing person searches in the mountains around Tucson, Az in the snow.....

No HMRS doesnt have gators (at least not the reptile kind) but the base camp itself sits on PINE SWAMP RD.....given nowhere as intensive as the everglades, but its easily as disorientening off the mountain proper as any area....constantly damp, swampy, creeks, ponds, dense trees, things that bite, sting and roar....and all of the training except the 3 day problem takes place down in the swamp....

There was a program developed under Pineda that would have done basically what you proposed:  Regional Ranger Schools, with the emphesis on the regional georgraphic specifics (if differant from HMRS area) so SER would have been more emphesis on desert survival, SWR swamp/wet lands etc etc. 

Agreed that the whole program could do with out the excessive blingage......

mk

[thatonekid]

Im going, hope to see you there. 

[airdale12]

Ill be there too!

[GTCommando]

I look forward to seeing you both there. Just look for the Chief from OHWG with GTM2 and mirror-shined boots and there I am!  Just a side note, are the white boot laces I've seen required for graduation? 

[airdale12]

From what I read the white laces have faded out a couple of years back.

[NCRblues]

From what I read the white laces have faded out a couple of years back.

You mean to tell me HAWK let SOME of the bling fade away???

[spaatzmom]

Several Florida Cadets I've talked to said that much of Hawk is useless training. No mountains to rappel down unless you want to rappel down an I-95 overpass. They would much rather see a Regional Special Activity designed for ground teams without all the bling Winter Hawk has no relationship to southern and west coast Wings. Hawk applies mainly to the northern tier of Wings and Rocky Mountain Region.
A Regional activity would be designed for the geography of the region and the goal of training groud teams and leaders. I wrote an ops plan for a Regional SAR activity years ago and also one specifically for Florida. A Hawk graduate would be totally lost when put into the Everglades since Hawk has no training for that situation. At one time there were two "ranger" programs in Florida, one for males and one for females. Both were very successful.

I think you perception in regards to relevance is somewhat skewed:
No but there are holes, ditches and ravines.... all of which the knowedge you would gain more from building hauling and lowering systems (steep terrain evacuation vs high angle) to move team memeber, equipment or personnel on something steeper than you can safely walk (imagine damp Florida ground after a dozen people try to crab walk it up and down)...

There was a personal mission by memebrs of HMRS to go to California to search for a former member who disapeared while paragliding....they woke up to abaout a foot of snow and well below freezing temps (I think it had been 60's the day before) I have been on missing person searches in the mountains around Tucson, Az in the snow.....

No HMRS doesnt have gators (at least not the reptile kind) but the base camp itself sits on PINE SWAMP RD.....given nowhere as intensive as the everglades, but its easily as disorientening off the mountain proper as any area....constantly damp, swampy, creeks, ponds, dense trees, things that bite, sting and roar....and all of the training except the 3 day problem takes place down in the swamp....

There was a program developed under Pineda that would have done basically what you proposed:  Regional Ranger Schools, with the emphesis on the regional georgraphic specifics (if differant from HMRS area) so SER would have been more emphesis on desert survival, SWR swamp/wet lands etc etc. 

Agreed that the whole program could do with out the excessive blingage......

mk

Just to let you know, the only "mountains" we have in Florida are man-made and reside on Disney properties; Space, Big Thunder, Splash, and Everest.  Most of the state is at or slightly above sea level so steep terrain evacuation vs high angle just does not apply here.

[airdale12]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

[GTCommando]

From what I read the white laces have faded out a couple of years back.

Hallelujah! I was hoping I wouldn't have to wear those things.  :clap:

[spaatzmom]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

Really???   Seriously?  When you have been around CAP and this forum for much longer and can gain more perspective, then credibility will rise.  Until then, well it is just whining.  Unfortunately, Hawk has earned its reputation good and bad.

[sarmed1]

Just to let you know, the only "mountains" we have in Florida are man-made and reside on Disney properties; Space, Big Thunder, Splash, and Everest.  Most of the state is at or slightly above sea level so steep terrain evacuation vs high angle just does not apply here.

....yeah I know; I lived there for 3 years...just south of one of the states highest points..... Laurel Hill, like 389 feet (the highest is like 500)
As a firefighter paramedic there, you would be suprised at the number of places I have had to use the principles of steep terrain evac.......

mk

[spaatzmom]

Just to let you know, the only "mountains" we have in Florida are man-made and reside on Disney properties; Space, Big Thunder, Splash, and Everest.  Most of the state is at or slightly above sea level so steep terrain evacuation vs high angle just does not apply here.

....yeah I know; I lived there for 3 years...just south of one of the states highest points..... Laurel Hill, like 389 feet (the highest is like 500)
As a firefighter paramedic there, you would be suprised at the number of places I have had to use the principles of steep terrain evac.......

mk

Britton Hill is the highest natural point in the state of Florida, USA, with a summit elevation of 345 feet (106 meters) above mean sea level

Laurel Hill   177ft   Northern Florida Highlands   Walton County

[sarmed1]

it appears the internet is not full of correct and useful information:
http://www.maps-n-stats.com/us_fl_elevation.html
mk

[airdale12]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

Really???   Seriously?  When you have been around CAP and this forum for much longer and can gain more perspective, then credibility will rise.  Until then, well it is just whining.  Unfortunately, Hawk has earned its reputation good and bad.

So now you have to have year of experience in a forum for your voice to count? Makes a lot of sense! And wat do u consider enough time in CAP?

[spaatzmom]

it appears the internet is not full of correct and useful information:
http://www.maps-n-stats.com/us_fl_elevation.html
mk

True.  I took mine from more than one source, but the USGS was the main one with  the most credibility.  They also may not be the most recent figures.

[spaatzmom]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

Really???   Seriously?  When you have been around CAP and this forum for much longer and can gain more perspective, then credibility will rise.  Until then, well it is just whining.  Unfortunately, Hawk has earned its reputation good and bad.

So now you have to have year of experience in a forum for your voice to count? Makes a lot of sense! And wat do u consider enough time in CAP?

Your response is only making my point stronger, especially the continued narrow-mindedness of "Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."  Kick all the dirt you want, it still won't gain you any points. 

[airdale12]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

Really???   Seriously?  When you have been around CAP and this forum for much longer and can gain more perspective, then credibility will rise.  Until then, well it is just whining.  Unfortunately, Hawk has earned its reputation good and bad.

So now you have to have year of experience in a forum for your voice to count? Makes a lot of sense! And wat do u consider enough time in CAP?

Your response is only making my point stronger, especially the continued narrow-mindedness of "Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."  Kick all the dirt you want, it still won't gain you any points.

Oh okay I understand you can criticize from what you hear about places! Really why don't you stop talking without being there and actually show up. I will never talk about something if I haven't been there. Thats like me saying "ohh NBB is not good and the training is very low quality" (This is just an example, i want to attend NBB).

[NCRblues]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

Really???   Seriously?  When you have been around CAP and this forum for much longer and can gain more perspective, then credibility will rise.  Until then, well it is just whining.  Unfortunately, Hawk has earned its reputation good and bad.

So now you have to have year of experience in a forum for your voice to count? Makes a lot of sense! And wat do u consider enough time in CAP?

Your response is only making my point stronger, especially the continued narrow-mindedness of "Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."  Kick all the dirt you want, it still won't gain you any points.

Oh okay I understand you can criticize from what you hear about places! Really why don't you stop talking without being there and actually show up. I will never talk about something if I haven't been there. Thats like me saying "ohh NBB is not good and the training is very low quality" (This is just an example, i want to attend NBB).

I dislike HAWK and i make it known. For 11 years i have dealt with returning cadets (and even some SM's) with the worst attitudes and uniform violations i have ever seen. Everytime they return, i ask the same question, and i get the same response... for 11 years. I ask, "did someone in charge at HAWK tell you, you are better than everyone else"... the answer i get is "yes". I then ask "did someone in charge at Hawk tell you, you can wear all that hawk bling when you get home" and the answer is always yes.... for 11 years the answer is always yes....

Now i am a supporter of NBB, and i know people also have problems with cadets returning with bad 'tudes and wearing the Beret, but as a staff member at several years worth of NBB's i can tell you this....NO ONE IN ANY POSISTION OF AUTHORITY INFORMS THE CADET THEY ARE BETTER THAN ANYONE, OR THEY CAN WEAR THE BERET EVEN IF THEIR SQAUDRON COMMANDER SAYS NO.

But, it seems HAWK has not changed, and it refuses to. So yes, i will pass judgment on HAWK, and i will continue to dislike HAWK until i get a resounding "NO" to my questions i ask cadets returning.

[airdale12]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

In my squadron there are more than 8 cadets and SMs who have attended Hawk and none of them show any of the thing you are saying and i tell u want i leave on the 8th to hawk and ill tell u wat they tell me.

Really???   Seriously?  When you have been around CAP and this forum for much longer and can gain more perspective, then credibility will rise.  Until then, well it is just whining.  Unfortunately, Hawk has earned its reputation good and bad.

So now you have to have year of experience in a forum for your voice to count? Makes a lot of sense! And wat do u consider enough time in CAP?

Your response is only making my point stronger, especially the continued narrow-mindedness of "Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."  Kick all the dirt you want, it still won't gain you any points.

Oh okay I understand you can criticize from what you hear about places! Really why don't you stop talking without being there and actually show up. I will never talk about something if I haven't been there. Thats like me saying "ohh NBB is not good and the training is very low quality" (This is just an example, i want to attend NBB).

I dislike HAWK and i make it known. For 11 years i have dealt with returning cadets (and even some SM's) with the worst attitudes and uniform violations i have ever seen. Everytime they return, i ask the same question, and i get the same response... for 11 years. I ask, "did someone in charge at HAWK tell you, you are better than everyone else"... the answer i get is "yes". I then ask "did someone in charge at Hawk tell you, you can wear all that hawk bling when you get home" and the answer is always yes.... for 11 years the answer is always yes....

Now i am a supporter of NBB, and i know people also have problems with cadets returning with bad 'tudes and wearing the Beret, but as a staff member at several years worth of NBB's i can tell you this....NO ONE IN ANY POSISTION OF AUTHORITY INFORMS THE CADET THEY ARE BETTER THAN ANYONE, OR THEY CAN WEAR THE BERET EVEN IF THEIR SQAUDRON COMMANDER SAYS NO.

But, it seems HAWK has not changed, and it refuses to. So yes, i will pass judgment on HAWK, and i will continue to dislike HAWK until i get a resounding "NO" to my questions i ask cadets returning.

[spaatzmom]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

Really???   Seriously?  When you have been around CAP and this forum for much longer and can gain more perspective, then credibility will rise.  Until then, well it is just whining.  Unfortunately, Hawk has earned its reputation good and bad.

So now you have to have year of experience in a forum for your voice to count? Makes a lot of sense! And wat do u consider enough time in CAP?

Your response is only making my point stronger, especially the continued narrow-mindedness of "Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."  Kick all the dirt you want, it still won't gain you any points.

Oh okay I understand you can criticize from what you hear about places! Really why don't you stop talking without being there and actually show up. I will never talk about something if I haven't been there. Thats like me saying "ohh NBB is not good and the training is very low quality" (This is just an example, i want to attend NBB).

"Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."   This is what senior members see when a cadet is soooo into the woods with their point of view that they can't/ don't want to see another's view.  I never said that I had not been.  I am well beyond cadet-hood as is my son, now a CAP Major after having been in since 1999.  This is where maturity of mind and age comes in and the blinders are taken off. 

Nothing wrong with the activity as such in the brochures, it is when the attitudes presented there are ingrained into impressionable youth and brought home to the detriment of the cadet and squadron.  The cadet leaves home wide-eyed and raring to go, learn and experience, but somewhere between arriving on the mountain and going home they have become absorbed by the Hawk collective mentality, for a lack of better words.  This is where most who have not accepted this line of thinking, call foul.

[airdale12]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

Really???   Seriously?  When you have been around CAP and this forum for much longer and can gain more perspective, then credibility will rise.  Until then, well it is just whining.  Unfortunately, Hawk has earned its reputation good and bad.

So now you have to have year of experience in a forum for your voice to count? Makes a lot of sense! And wat do u consider enough time in CAP?

Your response is only making my point stronger, especially the continued narrow-mindedness of "Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."  Kick all the dirt you want, it still won't gain you any points.

Oh okay I understand you can criticize from what you hear about places! Really why don't you stop talking without being there and actually show up. I will never talk about something if I haven't been there. Thats like me saying "ohh NBB is not good and the training is very low quality" (This is just an example, i want to attend NBB).

"Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."   This is what senior members see when a cadet is soooo into the woods with their point of view that they can't/ don't want to see another's view.  I never said that I had not been.  I am well beyond cadet-hood as is my son, now a CAP Major after having been in since 1999.  This is where maturity of mind and age comes in and the blinders are taken off. 

Nothing wrong with the activity as such in the brochures, it is when the attitudes presented there are ingrained into impressionable youth and brought home to the detriment of the cadet and squadron.  The cadet leaves home wide-eyed and raring to go, learn and experience, but somewhere between arriving on the mountain and going home they have become absorbed by the Hawk collective mentality, for a lack of better words.  This is where most who have not accepted this line of thinking, call foul.

Okay but here we go again, you have to understand that this is a stereotype heavily weighted on all Rangers. Not all Rangers think the same way, like i said before, we have many in my squadron and no one displays this attitude you speak off. In fact we have two black belts and the only thing they wear is the tab and while on an ftx their black belts.

And i will tell you when I come back whether or not they truly influence this attitude on cadets.

[sarmed1]

Nothing wrong with the activity as such in the brochures, it is when the attitudes presented there are ingrained into impressionable youth and brought home to the detriment of the cadet and squadron.  The cadet leaves home wide-eyed and raring to go, learn and experience, but somewhere between arriving on the mountain and going home they have become absorbed by the Hawk collective mentality, for a lack of better words.  This is where most who have not accepted this line of thinking, call foul.

This is actually a problem with every cadet activity, epsecially those that cater to a younger or less experienced population.  [insert actvity name here] is the best, badest activity CAP has......why; because I was there and it was awesome.   HRMS it would seem has by far the largest portion of students that develop this problem (but they put thru more students evry year than most other NCSA's) but I have seen it with every activity inluding encampment (heck, I saw it when I went to Army basic training, and in retrospect despite what they told us about being the best or the best etc etc......we were just a bunch of mostly snot nosed 18 year olds that survived 10 weeks of being pushed around by a drill sergent...bue we thought we were one stop short of a super soldier)

mk

[sarmed1]

Okay but here we go again, you have to understand that this is a stereotype heavily weighted on all Rangers. Not all Rangers think the same way, like i said before, we have many in my squadron and no one displays this attitude you speak off. In fact we have two black belts and the only thing they wear is the tab and while on an ftx their black belts.

The rangers and other grads out there that are "good guys" arent the problem....nor are they the ones that everyone remembers.  Its like I tell people at work: It doesnt matter if I save 100 people this year, because thats my job and what people expect of me, but I kill one person and people are clamaring for my head on a platter......

Despite a justice system of innocent until proven guilty, our society continually reverses that and the burden of proof lays on the innocent to demonstrate their innocence.... and especially with this topic it seems to be an uphill battle.  Unfortuantely with every 1 week champion of the program condeming anyone that even looks askew at anything  Ranger, it becomes a 1 step forwad 2 steps back sort of game for the rest of us.  Thanks for the support, but take your own advise; zip it until you have your own attendace experience to base your opinions on.

mk

[NCRblues]

You know it really gets annoying, people say that rangers are so full of it...when they have just as much attitude against Hawk as we do for Hawk!

Please if you come here its not to talk bad about the school, I think we would all really appreciate it.

Really???   Seriously?  When you have been around CAP and this forum for much longer and can gain more perspective, then credibility will rise.  Until then, well it is just whining.  Unfortunately, Hawk has earned its reputation good and bad.

So now you have to have year of experience in a forum for your voice to count? Makes a lot of sense! And wat do u consider enough time in CAP?

Your response is only making my point stronger, especially the continued narrow-mindedness of "Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."  Kick all the dirt you want, it still won't gain you any points.

Oh okay I understand you can criticize from what you hear about places! Really why don't you stop talking without being there and actually show up. I will never talk about something if I haven't been there. Thats like me saying "ohh NBB is not good and the training is very low quality" (This is just an example, i want to attend NBB).

"Why won't anyone see my side, I am right even if I haven't been there yet and I am still a cadet."   This is what senior members see when a cadet is soooo into the woods with their point of view that they can't/ don't want to see another's view.  I never said that I had not been.  I am well beyond cadet-hood as is my son, now a CAP Major after having been in since 1999.  This is where maturity of mind and age comes in and the blinders are taken off. 

Nothing wrong with the activity as such in the brochures, it is when the attitudes presented there are ingrained into impressionable youth and brought home to the detriment of the cadet and squadron.  The cadet leaves home wide-eyed and raring to go, learn and experience, but somewhere between arriving on the mountain and going home they have become absorbed by the Hawk collective mentality, for a lack of better words.  This is where most who have not accepted this line of thinking, call foul.

Okay but here we go again, you have to understand that this is a stereotype heavily weighted on all Rangers. Not all Rangers think the same way, like i said before, we have many in my squadron and no one displays this attitude you speak off. In fact we have two black belts and the only thing they wear is the tab and while on an ftx their black belts.

And i will tell you when I come back whether or not they truly influence this attitude on cadets.

Ok, that's one of the problems. The "black belts" should never leave the mountain. They should never be worn on an FTX. What purpose does the black pistol belt serve??

[sarmed1]

What purpose does wearing a cord on your blues serve, or ribbons or marksmanship badge...or pre-solo wings?  Its an award that symobilzes completion of a program just like anything else that CAP gives people for accomplishing something... although worn with BDU's rather than service dress, and unlike some of the other HMRS "bling" its, allowable as a Wing Commander auithorized item in 39-1.

mk

[NCRblues]

What purpose does wearing a cord on your blues serve, or ribbons or marksmanship badge...or pre-solo wings?  Its an award that symobilzes completion of a program just like anything else that CAP gives people for accomplishing something... although worn with BDU's rather than service dress, and unlike some of the other HMRS "bling" its, allowable as a Wing Commander auithorized item in 39-1.

mk

Why not allow everyone to wear anything than? I can come up with some things that " symbolizes completion of a program".

So the hawk patch, ranger tab and whatever GT badge you get from it is not enough huh? You need your pistol belts, ascots, chain and whistle, boot laces, orange shirt and cover?

[sarmed1]

You asked the purpose of wearing it.....I gave your the answer.   I dont make the rules.  You want to wear pistol belts because you are squadron staff....e-mail your Wing Commander.  You want to wear ascots for you color guard e-mail your Wing commander.  You want helmet liners because your the dumpster officer... e-mail your Wing commander.

unlike some of the other HMRS "bling" its, allowable as a Wing Commander authorized item in 39-1

If you are unhappy with it e-mail it up your chain, or call the National Commander, I'm sure she has an open door policy and will be happy to chat with you on your views of why no one seems to be able or willing to make a definitive yes or no stance on the ever important world of HMRS and their uniform traditions or flagrant disregard for CAP regualtions (depending on your view)

I mean maybe some of the new people out there dont get it.... the pro-hawkers say because of this this or this it's authorized, the nay-hawkers say but this this or this say its not.  I get where you stand.  Must people really beat the horse on this one.... the nay-hawkers will never convince the pro-hawkers that they are wrong and visa versa....so why try.

mk

[GroundHawg]

MK your the man. Just when the negativity of these boards gets out of hand you put things in perspective that I can relate to. Maybe because we are both USAF Tsgt's that started in the Army? IDK.

[GTCommando]

Thank you sarmed1 for injecting some civility into this thread. Maybe if there were more of you in the debate, all threads pertaining to HMRS wouldn't get locked.

  I'd like to make a few things clear. I didn't start this thread to fuel the Hawk fire. I merely wanted to know if there were any other CapTalkers going to HMRS this year. As far as the Ranger attitude, I've only met one Ranger, and he didn't show symptoms of Ranger syndrome. I have, however, seen the better-than-you mentality in countless ES personnel in my experience. The results are not pretty, and have in many cases jeopardized the mission. I won't let that happen to me.

As for all of the Hawk bling that everyone dislikes so much, I agree with you for the most part. Less is more when it comes to presenting a professional image, and the full-out Ranger uniform, with the ascot, orange cover, white boot laces and so on, quite honestly looks rather gaudy, not to mention flamboyant. I'm not going to Hawk to earn extra decorations. the only one I'll be wearing is the patch, the one authorized in CAPM 39-1. I'm going to 'Advance my education and training' (sound familiar?), to make new friends and to expand my horizons. CAP offers so many opportunities to cadets and SMs alike that it would be a shame not to take advantage of as many as you can. No matter the merits and demerits of HMRS, lets please keep the conversation to a civil tone of virtual voice. 

To close, I'll repeat my original question: Is anyone else going to HMRS this year? Just ask around for Chief Crave Case and you'll find me eventually.  (Squadron nickname, PM me if you want to hear the story).

[fyrfitrmedic]

 I'm trapped in the hallowed halls of academia for the week; I will, however, be up Saturday night and possibly for graduation.

[FW]

I plan to visit Saturday afternoon and evening.  Skit night is always a treat....

[BillB]

GTCommando
Your attitude is refreshing. I can agree with most of what you say. HMRS was originally designed as a PAWG activity. As such it's excellent. I disagree with you in I have seen several cadets and seniors that have a Hawk attitude and wear all the bling. One ranger patch is enough for any person that has attended. Possibly different colors on the patch for the levels of training. But get rid of the rest of the bling.
Further, the HWRS training should be expanded to a Region level activity in each Region. The reason being almost every Region is different grographicaly with different training needs. Hawk should be the model for the regional training. How many Pacific Region cadets can afford the travel and expenses of attending Hawk? CAP cadets in Florida for example do not need to know how to carry a victim down a mountain since there are no mountains, and EMS would be on scene in such a short time or rescue helicopters to transport victims from the middle of the Everglades.

[sarmed1]

I'll be there all week......I'll be the guy (at least on of..there may be more) in the AF uniforms.

Bill, I agree on the regional concept; the difficulty when that was proposed before was the difficulty in finding/training quality staff to maintain such schools.  There have been plenty of interested PA folks to go and help setup an run an initial school, but as we area all aware from other CAP activites, just because ou went to an activity once, doesnt make you an acceptable candidate to staff it; finding the right qaulities, of leadership, drive, organization and instructor ability are sometimes not so easy (especially from a limited manpower pool)

I personally have run small group ES schools with a limited number of qualified instructors (2 senior and 2 cadet) for 20 students.  There doesnt have to be some lofty plan to have an HMRS equivilent size school......but sometimes the orange shirts reflection of the sun blinds some people to see the practical reality of things.......start small and work your way up. (TXWG started with a 12 cadets advanced training squadron as part of encampment.....and now they have basically an entire NESA south)

mk

[capes]

(TXWG started with a 12 cadets advanced training squadron as part of encampment.....and now they have basically an entire NESA south)

mk

I know that LTC Long's WESS program down in Alabama started as a test program for the ES curriculum with only a handful back sometime in the 90s.  I guess they had almost 150 each weekend this year. 

[Eclipse]

I agree there should be a region-level ES school in each Region, but NESA should be the model, not HMRS.
The curriculum should be wholly-CAP allowed practice, and aircrew should be a significant part of the schedule.

[FW]

It's interesting to note the Vangard funds to CAP were to be used to establish Region ES facilities.
No one seemed to be interested except for HMRS.  They got quite a bit in the last 5 years.  NESA received some funds and NBB got some money a few years ago but, no new schools were ever considered.  I wonder if there really is a viable interest?

[arajca]

It's hard for folks to generate significant interest in something like this when it seems like all National cares about is flying. The impression I get is that ground ops are fine for cadets top play around with, but not something CAP is prepared to do anything serious with.

[NCRblues]

It's interesting to note the Vangard funds to CAP were to be used to establish Region ES facilities.
No one seemed to be interested except for HMRS.  They got quite a bit in the last 5 years.  NESA received some funds and NBB got some money a few years ago but, no new schools were ever considered.  I wonder if there really is a viable interest?

I would be interested in seeing what type of funds NBB got, and when they got it. National told us we are not getting "start up" money this year for NBB. In 2009 we had to use SM's to dig our own trench line to run a new cable, because "we have no money". NBB cant get enough golf carts to complete the massive mission we have during the airshow week because "we don't have enough money".

If NBB got money, I would like to know when, and how it was spent. I have been to NBB 5 times since 2004, and NBB survives on the kindness of members who are present (read, members checkbooks)

NBB has a real world mission, yet year after year we struggle with money and general funds. Fred, want to look into this for me?

[jimmydeanno]

It's interesting to note the Vangard funds to CAP were to be used to establish Region ES facilities.

I think that the ES mindset is what gets many members upset.  More than 1/2 of our membership works with cadets, or are cadets, yet every new funding source seems to be immediately directed to support operations, despite the majority of our funding being directed there anyway. 

I understand that operations pays some bills, but they pay bills that are a result of operations.

Perhaps there would be more interest if the plan was to develop "regional training facilities" that could be used for encampments, staff colleges, ES courses, etc. 

Once you label the facility as an "ES Facility" then the ES guys take possession and don't want anyone else using "their stuff."

[Eclipse]

It's interesting to note the Vangard funds to CAP were to be used to establish Region ES facilities.
No one seemed to be interested except for HMRS.  They got quite a bit in the last 5 years.  NESA received some funds and NBB got some money a few years ago but, no new schools were ever considered.  I wonder if there really is a viable interest?

I would be interested in seeing what type of funds NBB got, and when they got it. National told us we are not getting "start up" money this year for NBB. In 2009 we had to use SM's to dig our own trench line to run a new cable, because "we have no money". NBB cant get enough golf carts to complete the massive mission we have during the airshow week because "we don't have enough money".

If NBB got money, I would like to know when, and how it was spent. I have been to NBB 5 times since 2004, and NBB survives on the kindness of members who are present (read, members checkbooks)

NBB has a real world mission, yet year after year we struggle with money and general funds. Fred, want to look into this for me?

Where's the EAA checkbook?

[FW]

^NBB received money back in 2006 or 2007 for building renovations.  You can look back in the NEC minutes for the details.  Requirements for the funds have changed because of the lack of interest.  There used to be a "matching fund" requirement for existing facilities however, I don't know if it is still on the books. 

I would think, if NBB needs money for capital improvements, all you need do is have the activity director to apply.  Last I heard, the fund was flush with cash.

[NCRblues]

It's interesting to note the Vangard funds to CAP were to be used to establish Region ES facilities.
No one seemed to be interested except for HMRS.  They got quite a bit in the last 5 years.  NESA received some funds and NBB got some money a few years ago but, no new schools were ever considered.  I wonder if there really is a viable interest?

I would be interested in seeing what type of funds NBB got, and when they got it. National told us we are not getting "start up" money this year for NBB. In 2009 we had to use SM's to dig our own trench line to run a new cable, because "we have no money". NBB cant get enough golf carts to complete the massive mission we have during the airshow week because "we don't have enough money".

If NBB got money, I would like to know when, and how it was spent. I have been to NBB 5 times since 2004, and NBB survives on the kindness of members who are present (read, members checkbooks)

NBB has a real world mission, yet year after year we struggle with money and general funds. Fred, want to look into this for me?

Where's the EAA checkbook?

EAA helps us out with fuel at half price and other little perks, but since CAP owns the "NBB compound" they give us no help on that at all. Then the current NHQ forgets they own the compound and tells us to use the money cadets pay to go to the activity, yet that is for food.... Feeding 150ish 16-17-18 year olds (who work 18 hours a day at NBB) is EXPENSIVE.

NBB seems to struggle with everyone, from NHQ to EAA, they both think the other is taking care of the problems and money.

At the end of each year, we ask all the SM's who went to NBB to do after action reports and send them to national. Every single AAR asked about the funds problem, and national never responds. The EAA helps out when they can, but i have seen the EAA's books, and they don't clear much money from AIRVENTURE.

NBB is lost between 2 major organizations, with lawyers, who forget what we do... and its alot, something like 62 active ELTS last year, about 200 and some change overdue aircraft that we have to search through 10,000 aircraft on the ground for.... then working flightline from sunup to sundown. Its lots of gas, water and food.... we can only ask the cadets and SM's to pay for so much before people will stop coming....

[Eclipse]

True, but like every NCSA and similar activity, you have to pay to play.

If we can't get EAA to appreciate us, maybe we should back off for a while.

[Ned]

At the end of each year, we ask all the SM's who went to NBB to do after action reports and send them to national. Every single AAR asked about the funds problem, and national never responds.

Please remember that "national" in this sense is volunteers, just like you and me.  The national adviser for NCSAs is Maj Joe Winter (who is also Chief of Staff at MDWG).  His boss is the National Cadet Adviser, Col Craig Treadwell.  Both have day jobs, just like you and me. The only people who can allocate funds to NBB (which, BTW, since the total amounts of funds are limited,  means that every dollar given to NBB has to be taken from some other cadet activity) are the volunteer NB, NEC, and BoG members.

There is a formal budget process every year with a lot of activities and units competing actively for funds.  From where I sit in the budgeting process, all of the requests are reasonable and come from folks with solid reputations for being good guardians of both appropriated and corporate funds.  But there isn't enough money for everything, and each year many very worthy requests for money go "unfunded."

NBB is a terrific airshow, and the cadets and staff perform difficult work under adverse conditions.

Please do not confuse a lack of full funding with the notion that "national" doesn't care about NBB.

Feel free to talk with the Activity Director, Lt Col Pease, directly concerning your budgetary concerns.

Ned Lee

[HGjunkie]

And NBB isn't necessarily the only NCSA hurting for funds.

[Eclipse]

NBB is unique in that it is split between the training and the service.

Week 1 is understandable, and should be able to stand on its own, but week 2 should be receiving significant financial and
ancillary support from the EAA.

If we really are the "partners" with Airventure that we purport to be then they should be picking up the tab for legitimate
operational expenses.  The EAA might be a 501c, but that doesn't mean there isn't a whole lot of profit being made by
vendors and others providing services.

Or is this another of those situations where we are so desperate to get in the game we're willing to pay for everything?

[NCRblues]

At the end of each year, we ask all the SM's who went to NBB to do after action reports and send them to national. Every single AAR asked about the funds problem, and national never responds.

Please remember that "national" in this sense is volunteers, just like you and me.  The national adviser for NCSAs is Maj Joe Winter (who is also Chief of Staff at MDWG).  His boss is the National Cadet Adviser, Col Craig Treadwell.  Both have day jobs, just like you and me. The only people who can allocate funds to NBB (which, BTW, since the total amounts of funds are limited,  means that every dollar given to NBB has to be taken from some other cadet activity) are the volunteer NB, NEC, and BoG members.

There is a formal budget process every year with a lot of activities and units competing actively for funds.  From where I sit in the budgeting process, all of the requests are reasonable and come from folks with solid reputations for being good guardians of both appropriated and corporate funds.  But there isn't enough money for everything, and each year many very worthy requests for money go "unfunded."

NBB is a terrific airshow, and the cadets and staff perform difficult work under adverse conditions.

Please do not confuse a lack of full funding with the notion that "national" doesn't care about NBB.

Feel free to talk with the Activity Director, Lt Col Pease, directly concerning your budgetary concerns.

Ned Lee

Ned, i talk to Lt. Col. Peace daily, as well as the past NBB director Col. Aye, I also have weekly conversations with Col. Granville another past director.

They all say the same things. It seems NBB is lost in a kind of void.

Eclipse's argument is the one held at "national", and the EAA's argument is that "you advertise as volunteers, shouldn't the AF be paying for it, since you guys have to be here to do the ELT searches already."

Both sides think the other should be the one feeding us, and the cadets, and the mission, get lost in the "war of words".

Ned, Id like to extend an invitation to you to come to NBB to see the operation we do, and to talk about the funding issue. Ill send you a PM.

[Eclipse]

Eclipse's argument is the one held at "national", and the EAA's argument is that "you advertise as volunteers, shouldn't the AF be paying for it, since you guys have to be here to do the ELT searches already."

That's a valid argument - nothing says we have to provide anything but ELT search assistance, within normal response expectations. Especially since the vast majority of the work are anticipated / expected non-distress activations,  which could be found by local units on an as-needed basis.

It's CAP that has chosen to make a large, residential activity of Airventure, not the other way around.  I've heard more than one person from the EAA say that they could do that work themselves.

I am not saying our presence doesn't have value for CAP, but it sure sounds like the EAA is getting the benefit of the relationship.

The more this is talked through both here and elsewhere, the more this sounds like a situation where CAP is more excited about helping than
the recipients are of being helped, or at the very least, like much of our ES involvement, two large organizations with a status quo balancing on
a fine edge who need to sit down and have some direct conversations about cost / benefits and ROI's and decide if our presence is necessary,
and if so, how much it really costs.

[NCRblues]

Eclipse's argument is the one held at "national", and the EAA's argument is that "you advertise as volunteers, shouldn't the AF be paying for it, since you guys have to be here to do the ELT searches already."

That's a valid argument - nothing says we have to provide anything but ELT search assistance, within normal response expectations. Especially since the vast majority of the work are anticipated / expected non-distress activations,  which could be found by local units on an as-needed basis.

It's CAP that has chosen to make a large, residential activity of Airventure, not the other way around.  I've heard more than one person from the EAA say that they could do that work themselves.

I am not saying our presence doesn't have value for CAP, but it sure sounds like the EAA is getting the benefit of the relationship.

The more this is talked through both here and elsewhere, the more this sounds like a situation where CAP is more excited about helping than
the recipients are of being helped, or at the very least, like much of our ES involvement, two large organizations with a status quo balancing on
a fine edge who need to sit down and have some direct conversations about cost / benefits and ROI's and decide if our presence is necessary,
and if so, how much it really costs.

Agree 100%

[sarmed1]

I agree there should be a region-level ES school in each Region, but NESA should be the model, not HMRS.
The curriculum should be wholly-CAP allowed practice, and aircrew should be a significant part of the schedule.

Actually I dont think that anyone school should be the "model"...... Develop a school that meets the needs/interests of its participants (or potential participants)  take best practices from where you can find them and roll them into a program that works best for you.....

Just make sure that you follow the standard for whatever you advertise the activity as.

mk

[titanII]

It's hard for folks to generate significant interest in something like this when it seems like all National cares about is flying. The impression I get is that ground ops are fine for cadets top play around with, but not something CAP is prepared to do anything serious with.

***personl opinion warning***
The reason for that, I think, is because there are people whose job it is to do ground SAR (department of the interior, national park service). CAP assisst those people (in a very valuable way, no doubt) in SAR. CAP is not the end-all-be all for SAR. SAR, I will remind you, is only one of CAP's three missions.

[arajca]

It's hard for folks to generate significant interest in something like this when it seems like all National cares about is flying. The impression I get is that ground ops are fine for cadets top play around with, but not something CAP is prepared to do anything serious with.

***personl opinion warning***
The reason for that, I think, is because there are people whose job it is to do ground SAR (department of the interior, national park service). CAP assisst those people (in a very valuable way, no doubt) in SAR. CAP is not the end-all-be all for SAR. SAR, I will remind you, is only one of CAP's three missions.

May I remind you the SAR is only a part of Emergency Services, not the entire thing.

[titanII]

May I remind you the SAR is only a part of Emergency Services, not the entire thing.

Well put
That's kinda what I'm trying to say. SAR is a part of ES which itself is a only one of three missions. I would blame NHQ's and/or CAP's lack of interest in ground SAR on the fact that they really do have a     load of stuff on their collective plate. I'm not happy with it either, but...   

[arajca]

I agree there should be a region-level ES school in each Region, but NESA should be the model, not HMRS.
The curriculum should be wholly-CAP allowed practice, and aircrew should be a significant part of the schedule.

Actually I dont think that anyone school should be the "model"...... Develop a school that meets the needs/interests of its participants (or potential participants)  take best practices from where you can find them and roll them into a program that works best for you.....

Just make sure that you follow the standard for whatever you advertise the activity as.

mk

Region academies should be teaching to the CAP standards. Ignoring those because the participants aren't interested in them is a waste of everyone's time and resources. The with adding items that will never be used. Training for GT, AC, and MB has been standardized to the NESA cirriculum for the most part.

[arajca]

May I remind you the SAR is only a part of Emergency Services, not the entire thing.

Well put
That's kinda what I'm trying to say. SAR is a part of ES which itself is a only one of three missions. I would blame NHQ's and/or CAP's lack of interest in ground SAR on the fact that they really do have a     load of stuff on their collective plate. I'm not happy with it either, but...   

There is alot more that just SAR that we could be performing, if some standards and training could be developed and implemented. I'm not saying we should be taking over everyone's domain, but bringing 50 or 100 folks trained in ICS and teamwork and used to working in a command structure, is a useful tool for any emergency manager.

[FW]

While SAR is an important and historical part of our ES mission, it is taking a smaller part of our effort as time goes by.  However, DR and HS missions are increasing.  And, our DR efforts  have been shining of late (Deepwater Horizon required the assets of 4 regions.  This year's weather related DR efforts are still in play after 3 months)
We need to train for what we are asked to do.  We need to train to play well with others and, we need to train to standards which allow us to perform in the real world.  Understanding and working with the ICS and all the primary organizations that will involve us should be part of that standard. 

[sarmed1]

I agree there should be a region-level ES school in each Region, but NESA should be the model, not HMRS.
The curriculum should be wholly-CAP allowed practice, and aircrew should be a significant part of the schedule.

Actually I dont think that anyone school should be the "model"...... Develop a school that meets the needs/interests of its participants (or potential participants)  take best practices from where you can find them and roll them into a program that works best for you.....

Just make sure that you follow the standard for whatever you advertise the activity as.

mk

Region academies should be teaching to the CAP standards. Ignoring those because the participants aren't interested in them is a waste of everyone's time and resources. The with adding items that will never be used. Training for GT, AC, and MB has been standardized to the NESA cirriculum for the most part.

Thats not what I said;  if you offer the school as NESA or HMRS equivilent you need to follow their respective standards.  If you offer it as BFE SAR School; set the school up however you wish.  If GT qualification is part of that, teach/test using the task guide...if Ranger qualification is your plan, use their teathing/testing guide. 
The problem with "cookie cuttering" a school is that the CAP mission/needs vary from region to region (or even state to state)...as has been mentioned here before ...what applies to PAWG team does not nescesarily applie to FLWG teams and visa versa; if you eliminate the rope work from the Ranger portion for FL, and put in swamp rescue; its no longer the same school......and shouldnt be billed as the same.....however swamp rescue may be a needed requirement for FL, and as such it should be part of a school that FLWG teaches.

mk

[Eclipse]

Thats not what I said;  if you offer the school as NESA or HMRS equivilent you need to follow their respective standards.  If you offer it as BFE SAR School; set the school up however you wish.  If GT qualification is part of that, teach/test using the task guide...if Ranger qualification is your plan, use their teathing/testing guide. 
The problem with "cookie cuttering" a school is that the CAP mission/needs vary from region to region (or even state to state)...as has been mentioned here before ...what applies to PAWG team does not nescesarily applie to FLWG teams and visa versa; if you eliminate the rope work from the Ranger portion for FL, and put in swamp rescue; its no longer the same school......and shouldnt be billed as the same.....however swamp rescue may be a needed requirement for FL, and as such it should be part of a school that FLWG teaches.

You start with the standard school and then work towards adding the specialization later.

The local specialization, or anything which exceeds normal CAP capabilities or authorization should not be the focus.

[JC004]

...what applies to PAWG team does not nescesarily applie to FLWG teams and visa versa...

That is true.  Orange Explosion, the uniform here, doesn't blend in with things much here.  In Florida, you start losing your members in a grove... 

[Bluelakes 13]

I would be interested in seeing what type of funds NBB got, and when they got it. National told us we are not getting "start up" money this year for NBB. In 2009 we had to use SM's to dig our own trench line to run a new cable, because "we have no money". NBB cant get enough golf carts to complete the massive mission we have during the airshow week because "we don't have enough money".

The NCC participation pins and T-shirts were cut this year due to cost.  We did get the NCC coin, and Gen. Courter did hand out a special coin that she procured with her own money (not CAP funds).  Rumors are next year that even the coin may be gone.

So how much does ~150 berets cost? 

[sarmed1]

You start with the standard school and then work towards adding the specialization later.

The local specialization, or anything which exceeds normal CAP capabilities or authorization should not be the focus.

We dont often agree on points, especially those involving HMRS, however I totally agree here. I wish I could get that point across on the mountain a little more.  I have a hard time seeing the logic in trying to teach basic GTM skills and then before there is even sim miniscule amount of skill mastery someone is trying to ram the "specialized skill" down the students throat.  I see that as a major short coming and one of the primary generators of the complaints from those outside of HMRS regarding the capability/skill level of the graduates.

mk

[NCRblues]

I would be interested in seeing what type of funds NBB got, and when they got it. National told us we are not getting "start up" money this year for NBB. In 2009 we had to use SM's to dig our own trench line to run a new cable, because "we have no money". NBB cant get enough golf carts to complete the massive mission we have during the airshow week because "we don't have enough money".

The NCC participation pins and T-shirts were cut this year due to cost.  We did get the NCC coin, and Gen. Courter did hand out a special coin that she procured with her own money (not CAP funds).  Rumors are next year that even the coin may be gone.

So how much does ~150 berets cost?

I have been a supporter of doing away with the beret (shocking i know, a supporter of NBB not supporting the actual floppy hats) to increase our general funds for years now.

Notice i never said anything about the cost of berets, because i believe the mission that NBB does comes first... well before ANY bling at all. I am not a supporter of doing away with the NBB coins, we have to give the cadets something.

[davidsinn]

I would be interested in seeing what type of funds NBB got, and when they got it. National told us we are not getting "start up" money this year for NBB. In 2009 we had to use SM's to dig our own trench line to run a new cable, because "we have no money". NBB cant get enough golf carts to complete the massive mission we have during the airshow week because "we don't have enough money".

The NCC participation pins and T-shirts were cut this year due to cost.  We did get the NCC coin, and Gen. Courter did hand out a special coin that she procured with her own money (not CAP funds).  Rumors are next year that even the coin may be gone.

So how much does ~150 berets cost?

I have been a supporter of doing away with the beret (shocking i know, a supporter of NBB not supporting the actual floppy hats) to increase our general funds for years now.

Notice i never said anything about the cost of berets, because i believe the mission that NBB does comes first... well before ANY bling at all. I am not a supporter of doing away with the NBB coins, we have to give the cadets something.

Why not just tack on the cost of the coins and beanies to the attendance fee like everything else?

[titanII]

we have to give the cadets something.

I don't disagree (everybody loves free stuff ). But just to play the devil's advocate: Why do we have to give them something?

[NCRblues]

I would be interested in seeing what type of funds NBB got, and when they got it. National told us we are not getting "start up" money this year for NBB. In 2009 we had to use SM's to dig our own trench line to run a new cable, because "we have no money". NBB cant get enough golf carts to complete the massive mission we have during the airshow week because "we don't have enough money".

The NCC participation pins and T-shirts were cut this year due to cost.  We did get the NCC coin, and Gen. Courter did hand out a special coin that she procured with her own money (not CAP funds).  Rumors are next year that even the coin may be gone.

So how much does ~150 berets cost?

I have been a supporter of doing away with the beret (shocking i know, a supporter of NBB not supporting the actual floppy hats) to increase our general funds for years now.

Notice i never said anything about the cost of berets, because i believe the mission that NBB does comes first... well before ANY bling at all. I am not a supporter of doing away with the NBB coins, we have to give the cadets something.

Why not just tack on the cost of the coins and beanies to the attendance fee like everything else?

We did, 300 and sum change for a cadet to attend. I think that price is wrong, given the state of the economy. We have had more cadets drop this year, than several past years worth combined. The same answer over and over again was it was because of the cost. 300 to CAP, then the parents had to find an aircraft ticket and fly the kids into Appleton, a little regional airport.... very very expensive....

Like i said, we can only ask VOLUNTEERS to pay for so much before they stop coming....

[NCRblues]

we have to give the cadets something.

I don't disagree (everybody loves free stuff ). But just to play the devil's advocate: Why do we have to give them something?

i guess we don't have to give them anything.... but cadets like things that show they attended. So, technical, no...we don't have to give them anything, but i think at least a COIN would be nice, don't you?

[titanII]

i guess we don't have to give them anything.... but cadets like things that show they attended. So, technical, no...we don't have to give them anything, but i think at least a COIN would be nice, don't you?

Yes, I agree. Though I think the "free stuff" money could be spent on something the cadets like better. What about a t-shirt? It's a way for the cadets to show that they've done this activity. It's not like they could go around shoving their coin in people's faces  .

The only drawback is that some "shopping around" would have to be done, to find a cost-effective yet quality t-shirt.

[fyrfitrmedic]

You start with the standard school and then work towards adding the specialization later.

The local specialization, or anything which exceeds normal CAP capabilities or authorization should not be the focus.

We dont often agree on points, especially those involving HMRS, however I totally agree here. I wish I could get that point across on the mountain a little more.  I have a hard time seeing the logic in trying to teach basic GTM skills and then before there is even sim miniscule amount of skill mastery someone is trying to ram the "specialized skill" down the students throat.  I see that as a major short coming and one of the primary generators of the complaints from those outside of HMRS regarding the capability/skill level of the graduates.

mk

+1

I've argued this point elsewhere more than a time or two over the past couple of decades or so... like talking to a wall sometimes. I've run into the same shortcoming outside CAP as well; too much emphasis on "gee whiz" stuff before mastery of the basics.

[titanII]

too much emphasis on "gee whiz" stuff before mastery of the basics.

I think this is because more people are attracted to "learn to be a [Filter Subversion]" than "learn your average GTM skills". The organizations (in CAP and outside CAP) are trying to get as many participants as they can, and they know that the "gee-whiz stuff" will get them more participants.
Or at least that's what I suspect

[Eclipse]

too much emphasis on "gee whiz" stuff before mastery of the basics.

I think this is because more people are attracted to "learn to be a [Filter Subversion]" than "learn your average GTM skills". The organizations (in CAP and outside CAP) are trying to get as many participants as they can, and they know that the "gee-whiz stuff" will get them more participants.
Or at least that's what I suspect

You're correct - given the choice, no one would go to a police academy or fire fighter training.  Most people just want to grab the
Ringers Lactate and the Biophone and run out the door and call Rampart.

That's why it is incumbent on the organization to insure the baseline training get emphasized, and anyone who really "gets it" knows that this would make the "extra" training all the more "elite", because they have to go the extra mile to get there.  This is especially important with cadets, who are
always reaching to look "special", and will gravitate towards things that are shiny.

It serves no purpose to train a member in things they can't use, tell them they are "elite", then tell them they can't go on missions because they
aren't qualified.

[jimmydeanno]

RE: Have to give the cadets something...

I thought that was the whole point of the NCSA Ribbon, SAR Ribbon, and FIND Ribbons that they earn while they're there...

Much like the giving a Cadet Competition Team a commander's commendation for winning the Wing competition...isn't that what the ribbon is for?

Coins are cool, and cadets like them.  So add $4.75 to the price of admission and buy coins.

[jks19714]

RE: Have to give the cadets something...

Coins are cool, and cadets like them.  So add $4.75 to the price of admission and buy coins.

There was a time when receiving a coin from a General Officer meant something other than just "being there"...

[jimmydeanno]

RE: Have to give the cadets something...

Coins are cool, and cadets like them.  So add $4.75 to the price of admission and buy coins.

There was a time when receiving a coin from a General Officer meant something other than just "being there"...

They still do, but Generals give out coins that say, "Presented by the Commander" or something like that.  People know the difference between participation coins and commanders' coins.

[NCRblues]

RE: Have to give the cadets something...

I thought that was the whole point of the NCSA Ribbon, SAR Ribbon, and FIND Ribbons that they earn while they're there...

Much like the giving a Cadet Competition Team a commander's commendation for winning the Wing competition...isn't that what the ribbon is for?

Coins are cool, and cadets like them.  So add $4.75 to the price of admission and buy coins.

The only ribbon they are guaranteed to get is the NCSA. The SAR and FIND are not guaranteed at all. I know many flights who did not get the SAR ribbon, and barley got the FIND. It all depends on if what is going on while your flight is on an ES shift.

[JC004]

RE: Have to give the cadets something...

Coins are cool, and cadets like them.  So add $4.75 to the price of admission and buy coins.

There was a time when receiving a coin from a General Officer meant something other than just "being there"...

They still do, but Generals give out coins that say, "Presented by the Commander" or something like that.  People know the difference between participation coins and commanders' coins.

I have "I was there" coins (like Civic Leadership Academy for one) and General Officer coins with the neat little flags w/ stars on them (Army in this case).  One from the wing CC too...

[Hawk_Girl]

Well, the results are out, and I'm going to Hawk this year!  Anybody else going this year? Cadet or Officer Basic, or an advanced course? Which one?

     -GTCommando

Congrats! I hope you have fun!! I was signed up for Romeo, then screwed up my knee so you and my other Ranger family members will have to enjoy it for me!

[Nathan]

A blue beret costs around $8-10 at my local surplus store, last time I checked.

[titanII]

A blue beret costs around $8-10 at my local surplus store, last time I checked.

That would be a good solution if everyone at NBB bought themselves a US mil spec beret (if there is such a thing). Only problem I could think is that not everyone as a surplus store near them. But then again, they might be able to find one online or on Evil-Bay.

[sarmed1]

Back......interesting week.  Let the unpacking, washing, and bathing begin.

Short report:
Great weather; minimal rain
lots of students....190ish between basic's and advanced squadrons
1 real world mission tasking during the school
No serious injuries; 2 went to the hospital, but not bad enough to need an ambulance.
There were no issues that I found with the new medication administration policy

mk

[airdale12]

Back......interesting week.  Let the unpacking, washing, and bathing begin.

Short report:
Great weather; minimal rain
lots of students....190ish between basic's and advanced squadrons
1 real world mission tasking during the school
No serious injuries; 2 went to the hospital, but not bad enough to need an ambulance.
There were no issues that I found with the new medication administration policy

mk

what squadron were you assigned to?

[airdale12]

I look forward to seeing you both there. Just look for the Chief from OHWG with GTM2 and mirror-shined boots and there I am!  Just a side note, are the white boot laces I've seen required for graduation? 

What is ur name and what squadron where you assigned to?

[GTCommando]

I look forward to seeing you both there. Just look for the Chief from OHWG with GTM2 and mirror-shined boots and there I am!  Just a side note, are the white boot laces I've seen required for graduation? 

What is ur name and what squadron where you assigned to?

C/CMSgt Caleb King, Alpha Squadron. Hawk was a blast! I went with an open mind, actually learned some things, cleared a lot of misconceptions and got more leadership experience than I could have imagined at a SAR school. More to follow, but I'm getting tired of this computer, so I'll try to post some more info in the next few days.

[sarmed1]

....Mike Squadron......as an instructor, I also taught for the Air Crew Survival course.

mk

[rebowman]

WHY do attendees not graduate with GTM3?   

Whats the point of Hawk if no GT qualification?   Being a Ranger means nothing unless you are PAWG.

[sarmed1]

WHY do attendees not graduate with GTM3?   

Whats the point of Hawk if no GT qualification?   Being a Ranger means nothing unless you are PAWG.

as the ops guy explained it to me once.....for most cadets HMRS is a leadership lab disquised as an ES school.  The point being to learn the lessons of leadership, followership and teamwork (both for cadet staff and students).  Conveniently most of these attributes come in very handy in the world of ES, so using the medium of ES work has a twofold function.. you get some usefull ES skills that honestly for most grads once they pass a few more years in CAP maybecome usefull, plus that whole leadeship lab thing.

Seniors and older cadets seem to always come out of the school with the qualifications they go in looking for.  I posted in the Hawk vs NESA thread a spreadsheet detailing the GTM tasks vs Ranger grade, check it out (as I pointed out there) the only 3 skills not hit on at the school for the typical basic are heading and locate distress beacon and BCUT, everything else in the basic year should be up to GTM2 (minus misions, I think there is only 1 or 2 sorties during the school, but dont quote that one for sure) so you may not come out of the school GTM qual'd, but you could be easily once you return home.

mk

And honestly, being a Ranger has little ES use even in PA......

[Eclipse]

And honestly, being a Ranger has little ES use even in PA...

Then why is there so much sizzle and so little steak?

SARMED, everything you have said in all the threads makes logical sense, but the external experience of many of us here doesn't seem to match
your assertions.

If nothing else HMRS needs a new publicist.

[sarmed1]

For those that did actually go to the school, is there anything in particular that you did not like, or didnt work out well that you think the school could do better.  Or that you thought worked out well.

I ask, because I am looking for input to take to the AAR .....

(and PS I am already talking to stan/eval about the mis-match to GTM quals)

mk

[sarmed1]

As far as the use of Rangers...well its still not on the 101 card so mission wise your still kinda limited to the GTM level. Now given PA IC's know that if a team shows up of mostly GTM3's on the 101, but they are mostlyl R/1's there is a little flex in what you can expect out of them as far as mission capability; outside of PA, well if you dont understand what you have, how can you expect to employ it at its best.

My personal opinion is that the qualification system needs overhaul.  In a day with no standards for GT's it was well ahead of its time.  Today, with the extensive GTM training and qualification systems, not so much.... there is still a value to some of the training and to some of the tactics of the ranger team concept, but its disroportional to the hoopla.  Just like many things in CAP though change is warranted, change is still usually slow.  I'd say simply I am one voice in a hundred; and primarily an advisor, not a policy maker at that, but I offer the suggestions when asked.    The only other option is command directed change, and usually radical change like that in a volunteer organization does more damage than repair, and I dont see the critical safety or finacial problems that usually drive such an action.

mk

mk

[airdale12]

I look forward to seeing you both there. Just look for the Chief from OHWG with GTM2 and mirror-shined boots and there I am!  Just a side note, are the white boot laces I've seen required for graduation? 

What is ur name and what squadron where you assigned to?

C/CMSgt Caleb King, Alpha Squadron. Hawk was a blast! I went with an open mind, actually learned some things, cleared a lot of misconceptions and got more leadership experience than I could have imagined at a SAR school. More to follow, but I'm getting tired of this computer, so I'll try to post some more info in the next few days.

Outstanding Im glad you got your moneys worth! You had an outstanding staff! Krakower is an great leader too. I was on of you TC in training.

See you next year! 

[airdale12]

GTCommando
Your attitude is refreshing. I can agree with most of what you say. HMRS was originally designed as a PAWG activity. As such it's excellent. I disagree with you in I have seen several cadets and seniors that have a Hawk attitude and wear all the bling. One ranger patch is enough for any person that has attended. Possibly different colors on the patch for the levels of training. But get rid of the rest of the bling.
Further, the HWRS training should be expanded to a Region level activity in each Region. The reason being almost every Region is different grographicaly with different training needs. Hawk should be the model for the regional training. How many Pacific Region cadets can afford the travel and expenses of attending Hawk? CAP cadets in Florida for example do not need to know how to carry a victim down a mountain since there are no mountains, and EMS would be on scene in such a short time or rescue helicopters to transport victims from the middle of the Everglades.

Sir,
I'm sorry but I don't think you are ever going to see that. Ranger parade uniform has been present at the school for years and mean a lot to those who have been at the school since the early days. I don't see why many make a big deal about it. Ranger parade is only to be used at Hawk, it is not something you wear to your squadron meeting or an encampment. In regards to the training, yes you are right, the chances of me performing a pick up or a low angle rescue are very low, unless its a garbage disposal worker who got stuck halfway on a land fill side and they would use someone else for the job. But in middle school I learned about the 9 planets, and I don't know when in my life that was useful but to pass the test. Where I'm getting here is that the fact that we can do it, is great, you never know maybe one day I really use it, and knowing something else isn't going to hurt me at all.

Hawk to me was about 1,100 dollars. My parents really couldn't help me pay for it at all, and I don't work. How did I make it? I wrote sponsorship letters to businesses and they helped me. I also sold chocolates at school to pay for Hawk. If you really want to do something, YOU CAN!