CAP Talk

 How do you become a blue beret? Where would I get more information?

You can find info at http://ncsas.com/index.cfm/blue_beret?show=career_fair&careerFairID=18 , though I believe cadet officers are preferred? At least they were WIWAC.

Officer rank not required, but there is an age requirement.

What are the blue berets and what do they do?

Direct answer:

1. Attend a basic encampment
2. Next year on the NCSA application on eServices, you can apply for National Blue Beret
3. While you are there, you have the ability to earn the Beret
4. Good Luck.

edit:  More info added....

The Berets 'work' the EAA Airventure airshow for approximatly 2 weeks.  You arrive several days in advance, train, then become operational just before the airshow begins.  You will hunt ELT's, park aircraft, provide overwatch of aircraft, and log in tail numbers as aircraft land (3 at a time).

The above link provides alot of information.

The emphasis on ES will be those that have training in GEN ES, aircraft marshalling, and GTM.  There are alot of needs outside of the ES arena though.  Comms, Medics, TACO's just to name a few.

Another answer that may or may not fully answer your question. The grads from NBB don't do anything different at their regular units that those who haven't been. Having a beret does not allow one to do different jobs or have different responsibilities than other members. The beret is debatably only worn at the activity.

Your question seemed to imply that you may have though NBB grads were different than other members because they have the beret. If not, ignore me. :)

Quote from: Nathan on March 31, 2010, 06:57:14 PM
The beret is debatably only worn at the activity.

I though Gen. Courter sent an ICL explicitly authorizing NBB berets everywhere? It's the INWG GT berets that cause heartburn as it's a gray area with good support on both sides of the argument.

INWG CC can authorise distinctive head gear for special teams WITHING HIS wing.

NVWG did that for a while and we are looking into starting it again.

And yes the NB did authorise NBB berets for wear with BDUs through out the nation.

Quote from: lordmonar on March 31, 2010, 09:19:48 PM
INWG CC can authorise distinctive head gear for special teams WITHING HIS wing.

Yes and the supplement  states that they can not be worn outside the wing nor at NESA even though that is in Indiana.

Quote from: davidsinn on March 31, 2010, 11:49:04 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on March 31, 2010, 09:19:48 PM
INWG CC can authorise distinctive head gear for special teams WITHING HIS wing.

Yes and the supplement  states that they can not be worn outside the wing nor at NESA even though that is in Indiana.

So...no gray area.

NESA is a NATIONAL activity even if it is conducted within the confines of the state of Indiana.

Quote from: lordmonar on April 01, 2010, 12:59:17 AM

Quote from: davidsinn on March 31, 2010, 11:49:04 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on March 31, 2010, 09:19:48 PM
INWG CC can authorise distinctive head gear for special teams WITHING HIS wing.

Yes and the supplement  states that they can not be worn outside the wing nor at NESA even though that is in Indiana.

So...no gray area.

NESA is a NATIONAL activity even if it is conducted within the confines of the state of Indiana.

Correct. The gray area is the Wing CCs power to actually allow them at all. I can see the argument that he can't but I agree with the argument that he can. This was brought up over a year ago when a poor cadet from my wing got dogpiled on because he asked a question about them.

Quote from: fightingfalcon on March 08, 2010, 02:55:43 AM
How do you become a blue beret?

First, wool must come from an animal that grows it; sheep being the most popular, but also lama, alpaca and other mammals. The beret is made of a soft 100% wool with a visorless, round shape.  Before the wool is shaped, it is dyed to a specific color.  In this case, "blue" would be added to create a "blue beret".  The hat is usually 11" diameter and is dry clean only.

I believe it is actually Indigo, which is more to the purple spectrum than pure blue, but looks blue/black to the human eye...

Could that possibly make the wearer a "kool mama llama"?  >:D

It is interesting that 39-1 doesn't list berets in the list of items that may be authorized by the wing commander, but does have a box below it that only says:

QuoteOnly blue berets may be authorized for special purpose wear. Berets provided
at special activities may be worn at the activity ONLY.

It doesn't say was "special purpose wear" is, nor does it say that the "special activities" are the only case in which berets may be authorized.  If I were a wing commander, other than not seeing any real reason for authorizing berets, I wouldn't touch this.

Quote from: JC004 on April 01, 2010, 03:39:13 AM
It is interesting that 39-1 doesn't list berets in the list of items that may be authorized by the wing commander, but does have a box below it that only says:

QuoteOnly blue berets may be authorized for special purpose wear. Berets provided
at special activities may be worn at the activity ONLY.

It doesn't say was "special purpose wear" is, nor does it say that the "special activities" are the only case in which berets may be authorized.  If I were a wing commander, other than not seeing any real reason for authorizing berets, I wouldn't touch this.

Apparently, this isn't reflective of whatever Maj Gen Courter released.

One of the dangers of quoting out of context.

Read the entire table.

Quote from: TitleTable 1-3. Additional Items That May Be Authorized by the Wing/Region Commander

Quote from: Line 1 GeneralWing/region commanders may authorize certain items to be worn for specific purposes within their respective wing/region or within specific units of their wing/region. Commanders will not use this authority to circumvent National polices. Examples of purposes of these items are to identify members of special CAP groups such as drill teams, bands, color guards, and members participating in emergency services' missions.

Quote from: Line 2 Where and When WornIn all cases, these items will have no national significance or recognition as a
part of the CAP uniform. They will not be worn at summer encampments or national events (cadet exchange, special activities, etc.), unless specifically authorized by National Headquarters. They may be worn only while
performing the duty for which the use of the items was authorized. Wing/region approved items will be worn only within the boundaries of the authorizing commander.

Quote from: Line 3 Items that may be authorisedThe wing/region commander has authority to approve the following items for wear within his/her wing: (a) Shoulder cords. Not more than one shoulder cord will be worn at one time, and it will be worn on the left shoulder (see Figure 5-2). Color to be determined by the wing commander, EXCEPT all primary members of Cadet Advisory Councils will wear gold at the National level, blue at region level, and red at wing level. (See CAPR 52-16, CAP Cadet Program Management.) National Cadet Competition teams will wear white shoulder cords. Honor Guardsmen will wear silver shoulder cords; (b) scarves; (c) white gloves; (d) white and black belts; (e) helmet liners. Color to be determined by wing commander except that helmet liners authorized for wear by members participating in emergency services missions will be white and will be worn with the decal depicted in Figure 6-20.

Quote from: Line 4 BeretsOnly blue berets may be authorized for special purpose wear. Berets provided at special activities may be worn at the activity ONLY.

Okay.....typically this a another confusing 39-1 reg.

Line 1 clearly identified ES teams as a specail group.

Line 4 clearly identifies the beret as an item the wing/region commander can authorise.

Neither of which has anything to do with NBB beret and the NB's decision to allow them to wear it away from the activity.

You can't use Line 1 to circumvent national policy.  National policy on the NBB was set years ago.

I will say that Line 3 muddles the whole thing...but I think that was laziness on someones part as opposed to an intention to not allow wing commanders to approve berets.

Thankfully, local unit and activity commanders can just say "no to pancake hats" and move on...

my largest complaint with anyone "quoting regs" is that half of the regs we have now are out dated and have had so many "updates" and "changes" that they should really just wewrite the things every few years, i mean we had the "CSU" for what? 5 years? but that was an "update" to the regs, just as this 2006 national board decision for the wear of blue beret and hawk mountain items to be worn with blue and green BDUs is an "update" to the regs, correct me if Iam wrong, but i dont believe the "march 23 2005" issue of "uniforms weekly" (aka 39-1) has any further statements on "the blue beret" other than the little quote "line 4" or somehting about "to be worn only at activities" yadda yadda yadda...the debates will go on until we just recognize the members who attend "NBB" to wear the beret they have earned with any uniform, instead of allowing these unknowing squadron commanders who have been informed by their cadets that "all color guard teams are REQUIRED to wear an un-formed blue bet with the CAP cutout in the center of the flash" for the members who have not been that wish to wear the beret, its too bad, the beret is earned not bought, those that have not attended can not know the true connection nd dedication that is required for the beret.
Anyways, there are multiple thought processes behind the wear of the beret:
1.we earn the model rocketry badge and wear that on both the service uniform and BDU uniform(if one chooses)
2."in the military, they wear berets with both uniforms and such."
3.you wear your rank on both uniforms, correct,?and you wear it proudly , correct?
   what makes the beret any different? if you have earned it you should be able to wear it proudly to show your achievement, not shun it and toss it in the closet when its time to play dress up.

Quite frankly im disgusted with the treatment of the blue beret recipients, i mean according to regs, in the dres suniform there is no defining insignia of a blue beret, but theres always a way to tell the ground team, model rocketry, pilot,IACE<etc. people, i think its sad conssidering that the NBB encampment is one of the largest civilian interactions Civil Air Patrol has. Now of course i dont mean we dont do more search and rescue, etc. but for one activity, i dont believe there is a larger "audience" of civilians.
anyways, you all have heard my rant, please feel free to comment :)

NBB is a single activity - no different than any NCSA, it confers no special rating or ability in its members beyond "BTDT", therefore why it should allow for the wear of a special hat, one that sets the wearer up as "special" and breaks the uniformity of ranks is beyond me and many other members.  The undeserved arrogance the beret engenders in some members, especially younger cadets is the primary reason most experienced commanders prefer they be left at home.

The other issue is that a large number of those who do wear it outside NBB;

...wear it incorrectly (by size, shape, or how it's sitting on their head)

...wear it with an inappropriate flash (i.e. anything other than the St, Alban's Cross)

...wear it inappropriately (i.e. in the field, with service dress)

...argue with unit and activity commanders who tell then not to wear it in a given circumstance.

Quote from: NBB0058 on April 09, 2010, 03:49:53 PM
Quite frankly im disgusted with the treatment of the blue beret recipients, i mean according to regs, in the dres suniform there is no defining insignia of a blue beret, but theres always a way to tell the ground team, model rocketry, pilot,IACE<etc. people, i think its sad conssidering that the NBB encampment is one of the largest civilian interactions Civil Air Patrol has. Now of course i dont mean we dont do more search and rescue, etc. but for one activity, i dont believe there is a larger "audience" of civilians.
anyways, you all have heard my rant, please feel free to comment :)

Quite frankly, I'm disgusted with attitude many who attend NBB come back with. They tend not to play well with others who haven't been to NBB. They argue with commanders. They think they are special. They demand preferential treatment. In general, they're not worth the effort it takes to re-eduacte them and pop their ego bubbles. They're about the problem as Hawk Mountain folks.

Also, NBB is NOT an encampment. For several years the blue beret was NOT authorized nationally due to the above mentioned problems. It was only recently re-authorized for completing NBB, but the problems still exist. It has always been an option for wing commanders to authorize it for activities they see fit, which includes color guards (excluding NCGC teams).

As for only being authorized for the bdu and field uniforms, the AF needs to approve it for the service uniforms (and the bdu). IIRC, permission has been requested to wear it with the bdu, but I haven't seen anything that the AF has approved it.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 09, 2010, 04:31:24 PMNBB is a single activity - no different than any NCSA

>:(

National Blue Beret, while also a NCSA, is the only NCSA that is also an operational mission of Civil Air Patrol. And while that operational mission is unique and principally non-distress in nature, it does require a special set of skills not normally found among CAP ES operators and is an important part of the overall safety of EAA Oshkosh.

Say what you will about the poor attitudes of attendees and their overblown self-importance. Those are valid points to make. But when addressing those attitudes, please don't disrespect the activity and it's history. Okay?

The blue beret is authorised for wear with the service dress.....

The National Board decision to allow the beret to be worn by NBB alumni in BDUs only is the only limiting factor.

Wing commanders can authorise the beret for "special teams" within their wings...there is no limit to which uniforms it may be authorised for.

On second thought, there's no point to this discussion...

with regards to the "poor attitudes" or attendees of NBB, i must admit that any NCSA warrants an overblown confidence and ego, because that cadet feels "special" amoung his squadron. i also do not want to hear about the "poor attitudes" of blue berets, in contrast with some of the pompous ass pilots and "ground team" members, im sorry but last time i checked there was not a reg that stated "all ground team members must be able to do atleast 100 consistent push ups, for protection" as i was soo told by one ground team members, out of anyone in CAP the berets are the ones who deserve the right to have "poor attitudes" for all the trash they take, the mere thrashing my comment has gotten in the past half hour should be evidence of this.

Quote from: NBB0058 on April 09, 2010, 05:06:15 PM
with regards to the "poor attitudes" or attendees of NBB, i must admit that any NCSA warrants an overblown confidence and ego, because that cadet feels "special" amoung his squadron.

Haven't this kind of issue except for NBB and HMS.

Quotei also do not want to hear about the "poor attitudes" of blue berets, in contrast with some of the pompous ass pilots and "ground team" members, im sorry but last time i checked there was not a reg that stated "all ground team members must be able to do atleast 100 consistent push ups, for protection" as i was soo told by one ground team members,

No one has said NBB and HMS have a lock on bad attitudes, however, they're the only ones who CONSISTANTLY have this attitude problem.

Quoteout of anyone in CAP the berets are the ones who deserve the right to have "poor attitudes" for all the trash they take, the mere thrashing my comment has gotten in the past half hour should be evidence of this.

No. They get trashed BECAUSE of their poor attitudes, not the other way around.

When I was the MAWG DP, the Wing Commander would get requests for beret authorizations at least once a year. He would pass it on to me for comment and the reply would invariably be:

Too expensive
No protection from the sun, in fact it holds in the heat.
They smell funny and shrink when they get wet
Only real benefit is emergency TP, barf bag, or feminine hygiene product (1 time use only).

Quote from: Cecil DP on April 09, 2010, 10:16:51 PM
When I was the MAWG DP, the Wing Commander would get requests for beret authorizations at least once a year. He would pass it on to me for comment and the reply would invariably be:

Too expensive
No protection from the sun, in fact it holds in the heat.
They smell funny and shrink when they get wet
Only real benefit is emergency TP, barf bag, or feminine hygiene product (1 time use only).

Those don't seem to be very good reasons not approve them IMHO.

1. Expense would be a factor in that the group wanting them would have already considered.
2. And a flight cap is better in what way?
3. Don't get them wet.
4. How about the benifit of esprit de corps of the special team.

Okay....YOU don't like them....I get that.....but the Homer J. Simpson Cadet Squadron Color Guard does.

Don't limit a tool because you yourself don't pefer it.

Quote from: NBB0058 on April 09, 2010, 03:49:53 PManyways, you all have heard my rant, please feel free to comment :)

Lost me somewhere in the first sentence. I have no clue what you're trying to say.

Quote from: N Harmon on April 09, 2010, 04:57:36 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on April 09, 2010, 04:31:24 PMNBB is a single activity - no different than any NCSA

>:(

National Blue Beret, while also a NCSA, is the only NCSA that is also an operational mission of Civil Air Patrol. And while that operational mission is unique and principally non-distress in nature, it does require a special set of skills not normally found among CAP ES operators and is an important part of the overall safety of EAA Oshkosh.

Say what you will about the poor attitudes of attendees and their overblown self-importance. Those are valid points to make. But when addressing those attitudes, please don't disrespect the activity and it's history. Okay?

NBB is just another NCSA.

SUPT-FC is the only activity where you spend a week in the shoes of USAF pilot in SUPT, but the cadets don't come home wearing flight helmets. Just a patch and an experience.

As an aside. Why the heck a beret anyway? Why name the activity after headgear? Why the "St Albans" cross as a flash? Its pretty random IMHO. Why not follow USAF example and have the flash be a metallic pin in the shape of the NBB logo?

So let me get this straight...y'all are arguing about getting a hat for marshalling planes at an airshow?  Methinks you need to check your vector...

<-- NBB '87

Quote from: shorning on April 09, 2010, 11:57:47 PM
So let me get this straight...y'all are arguing about getting a hat for marshalling planes at an airshow?  Methinks you need to check your vector...

<-- NBB '87

Actually, many of us are arguing about the attitude and problems caused by the folks who get a hat for telling pilots where to go at an airshow...

While considered ugly by many, it's not the hat itself that is the problem.

Quote from: Fuzzy on April 09, 2010, 11:55:27 PM

Quote from: N Harmon on April 09, 2010, 04:57:36 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on April 09, 2010, 04:31:24 PMNBB is a single activity - no different than any NCSA

>:(

National Blue Beret, while also a NCSA, is the only NCSA that is also an operational mission of Civil Air Patrol. And while that operational mission is unique and principally non-distress in nature, it does require a special set of skills not normally found among CAP ES operators and is an important part of the overall safety of EAA Oshkosh.



Say what you will about the poor attitudes of attendees and their overblown self-importance. Those are valid points to make. But when addressing those attitudes, please don't disrespect the activity and it's history. Okay?

NBB is just another NCSA.

SUPT-FC is the only activity where you spend a week in the shoes of USAF pilot in SUPT, but the cadets don't come home wearing flight helmets. Just a patch and an experience.

As an aside. Why the heck a beret anyway? Why name the activity after headgear? Why the "St Albans" cross as a flash? Its pretty random IMHO. Why not follow USAF example and have the flash be a metallic pin in the shape of the NBB logo?

1. I have attended SUPT-FC,  you do not "spend the week in the shoes of an airforce pilot" you learn some of the things they learn, and walk around base acting like your hot [Filter Subversion] so maybe the attitude of a pilot, but not the activies
Also, the reason we wear the "st. Albans pin, is beacuse it is a sign of mercy and assistance, what we as blue berets represent

Quote from: Cecil DP on April 09, 2010, 10:16:51 PM
When I was the MAWG DP, the Wing Commander would get requests for beret authorizations at least once a year. He would pass it on to me for comment and the reply would invariably be:

Too expensive
No protection from the sun, in fact it holds in the heat.
They smell funny and shrink when they get wet
Only real benefit is emergency TP, barf bag, or feminine hygiene product (1 time use only).

2. So what your sating is the beret is not easily visible, A. In the woods, B. anywhere else????
Im terribly sorry, but didn't the military use almost the same uniform as us to HIDE in the woods???
We are supposed to be "searching" for injured/crashed people, not HIDING from them, it makess more sense to me to wear a blue mushroom on your head with a LARGE GOLD AND BLUE REFLECTIVE DEVICE ON THE FRONT.
I mean correct me if I am wrong, but it just doesn't make much sense to wear a suubdued uniform when "assisting civilians"

Berets are inappropriate for, and not worn by the Army or USAF in, the field - they are for garrison wear only, but many of our beloved
members don't know or care about that.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 12, 2010, 02:32:13 AM
Berets are inappropriate for, and not worn by the Army or USAF in, the field - they are for garrison wear only, but many of our beloved
members don't know or care about that.

Umm, duh.... thats because were not the "Army or USAF"
Were C.A.P.

Quote from: NBB0058 on April 12, 2010, 02:35:26 AM

Quote from: Eclipse on April 12, 2010, 02:32:13 AM
Berets are inappropriate for, and not worn by the Army or USAF in, the field - they are for garrison wear only, but many of our beloved
members don't know or care about that.

Umm, duh.... thats because were not the "Army or USAF"
Were C.A.P.

It is also in correct.

AR 670-1 disagrees..

Soldiers will wear the beret with the utility and service (class A and B) uniforms in garrison environments, only. Soldiers will wear the patrol cap (formerly called the BDU cap) in the field when they are authorized to remove their Kevlar helmet.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 12, 2010, 02:54:15 AM
AR 670-1 disagrees..

Soldiers will wear the beret with the utility and service (class A and B) uniforms in garrison environments, only. Soldiers will wear the patrol cap (formerly called the BDU cap) in the field when they are authorized to remove their Kevlar helmet.

I am fully aware of what Army Regulation 670-1 states,
but that is just an "Army Regulation" it has nothing to do with the C.A.P.

Quote from: Eclipse on April 12, 2010, 02:54:15 AM
AR 670-1 disagrees..

Soldiers will wear the beret with the utility and service (class A and B) uniforms in garrison environments, only. Soldiers will wear the patrol cap (formerly called the BDU cap) in the field when they are authorized to remove their Kevlar helmet.

I see you can read the regulation....but I guess the Army does not...because I see a lot of them wearing them "in the field"....at least what I would consider "In the field" for CAP's purposes.

An interesting perspective...

I am an 8 year CAP cadet and a SrA in USAF Security Forces. I went to NBB in 03. Berets have no place in CAP. In the Air Force, in SF we wear a badge to represent our roles as cops. The beret in the Air Force is the mark of a Combat Airman. The four career fields that wear berets in the Air Force are the ones that are shot at on a regular basis, they distinguish us from the rest of the service by showing that in our jobs in wartime are outside the wire. Cadets walking around in berets makes CAP look childish to most airmen because we know that those berets dont mean what a beret is supposed to mean.

Another problem with the CAP beret regulation is that a beret is not worn as simply something that youve earned but something a unit wears. The way the beret is worn at NBB is the way that it is worn in the military. You wear a beret while performing the function that it represents with a unit that that is the mission of. Once you leave that unit, you no longer wear the beret. If an Air Force Pararescueman goes and becomes a recruiter or a basic training instructor, he hangs up his maroon beret and puts on a flight cap or a campaign cover. When CAP cadets go back to their squadrons, they should put their normal covers back on. The NBB patch is their permenant recognition for going there, not the beret.

(From the NBB Facebook page).

Quote from: NBB0058 on April 12, 2010, 02:23:32 AM

Quote from: Fuzzy on April 09, 2010, 11:55:27 PM

Quote from: N Harmon on April 09, 2010, 04:57:36 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on April 09, 2010, 04:31:24 PMNBB is a single activity - no different than any NCSA

>:(

National Blue Beret, while also a NCSA, is the only NCSA that is also an operational mission of Civil Air Patrol. And while that operational mission is unique and principally non-distress in nature, it does require a special set of skills not normally found among CAP ES operators and is an important part of the overall safety of EAA Oshkosh.



Say what you will about the poor attitudes of attendees and their overblown self-importance. Those are valid points to make. But when addressing those attitudes, please don't disrespect the activity and it's history. Okay?

NBB is just another NCSA.

SUPT-FC is the only activity where you spend a week in the shoes of USAF pilot in SUPT, but the cadets don't come home wearing flight helmets. Just a patch and an experience.

As an aside. Why the heck a beret anyway? Why name the activity after headgear? Why the "St Albans" cross as a flash? Its pretty random IMHO. Why not follow USAF example and have the flash be a metallic pin in the shape of the NBB logo?

1. I have attended SUPT-FC,  you do not "spend the week in the shoes of an airforce pilot" you learn some of the things they learn, and walk around base acting like your hot [Filter Subversion] so maybe the attitude of a pilot, but not the activies
Also, the reason we wear the "st. Albans pin, is beacuse it is a sign of mercy and assistance, what we as blue berets represent

Heh whatever dude. ;)

Quote from: Eclipse on April 12, 2010, 03:22:38 AM
An interesting perspective...

I am an 8 year CAP cadet and a SrA in USAF Security Forces. I went to NBB in 03. Berets have no place in CAP. In the Air Force, in SF we wear a badge to represent our roles as cops. The beret in the Air Force is the mark of a Combat Airman. The four career fields that wear berets in the Air Force are the ones that are shot at on a regular basis, they distinguish us from the rest of the service by showing that in our jobs in wartime are outside the wire. Cadets walking around in berets makes CAP look childish to most airmen because we know that those berets dont mean what a beret is supposed to mean.

Strange....all those times as a Combat Communicator sitting on top a hill top miles from the wire...getting shot at....no one ever issued me a beret.

Don't drink that cool aid.   They were berets because berets are cool and they are "special". 

Quote from: Eclipse on April 12, 2010, 03:22:38 AM
Another problem with the CAP beret regulation is that a beret is not worn as simply something that youve earned but something a unit wears. The way the beret is worn at NBB is the way that it is worn in the military. You wear a beret while performing the function that it represents with a unit that that is the mission of. Once you leave that unit, you no longer wear the beret. If an Air Force Pararescueman goes and becomes a recruiter or a basic training instructor, he hangs up his maroon beret and puts on a flight cap or a campaign cover. When CAP cadets go back to their squadrons, they should put their normal covers back on. The NBB patch is their permenant recognition for going there, not the beret.[/i]

(From the NBB Facebook page).

Well a little wrong....Units don't wear the beret....but particular people in that unit.

A PJ in a Rescue Squadron will wear the beret...but the helo crew chief in the same unit will not.  A Cop on detached duty to another unit (say an Intell Group) will continue to wear the beret because he is still a cop.

Either way....that is not how CAP views the beret from NBB.

Quote from: lordmonar on April 12, 2010, 05:04:41 AM
Don't drink that cool aid.   They were berets because berets are cool and they are "special". 

On this we agree, which brings us to back to the reason they are an issue in CAP.

WIWAC, the blue berets were authorized for wear by NBB attendees at NBB, and by anyone else if authorized by a (wing, unit?) commander.  It happened that in INWG, most of the people who were wearing the beret were on a ground team.  There was a respect for those wearing the berets, as they'd BTDT on training, missions, etc.  I believe the regs authorized them for anyone, but it was a bit of an unwritten rule that the GTMs only wore them.  It was a great privilege to finally "earn the right" to wear one as a member of your unit's team.  The camaraderie, the esprit de corp, the finally earning it, gave the wearing of the beret a bit of honor and accomplishment.

Then I left CAP and when I came back, I find out that somewhere along the way, that all disappeared.  It seems everyone was wearing it, and that made it not as special.  But unit ballcaps were authorized, and now we can make ourselves different from other people in our own way, so my beret, still formed and waiting to be worn will just sit and be a reminder of glory days gone by.

Quote from: Dracosbane on April 12, 2010, 05:40:22 AM
WIWAC, the blue berets were authorized for wear by NBB attendees at NBB, and by anyone else if authorized by a (wing, unit?) commander.  It happened that in INWG, most of the people who were wearing the beret were on a ground team.  There was a respect for those wearing the berets, as they'd BTDT on training, missions, etc.  I believe the regs authorized them for anyone, but it was a bit of an unwritten rule that the GTMs only wore them.  It was a great privilege to finally "earn the right" to wear one as a member of your unit's team.  The camaraderie, the esprit de corp, the finally earning it, gave the wearing of the beret a bit of honor and accomplishment.

Then I left CAP and when I came back, I find out that somewhere along the way, that all disappeared.  It seems everyone was wearing it, and that made it not as special.  But unit ballcaps were authorized, and now we can make ourselves different from other people in our own way, so my beret, still formed and waiting to be worn will just sit and be a reminder of glory days gone by.

Since you have a GT badge you can wear a beret in INWG on ES ops only. It's in the current 39-1 supplement for our wing.

Quote from: Fuzzy on April 09, 2010, 11:55:27 PM
NBB is just another NCSA.

SUPT-FC is the only activity where you spend a week in the shoes of USAF pilot in SUPT, but the cadets don't come home wearing flight helmets. Just a patch and an experience.

All NCSAs are different and each imparts different experiences. But let's be clear: NBB is the only NCSA that would still need to be worked if it were not an NCSA. And the cadets do work, paying for the privilege. I think a little thanks is warranted, and for a lot of them the beret serves as thanks enough.

QuoteAs an aside. Why the heck a beret anyway? Why name the activity after headgear? Why the "St Albans" cross as a flash? Its pretty random IMHO. Why not follow USAF example and have the flash be a metallic pin in the shape of the NBB logo?

I can't answer that. I attended NBB because I loved working airshows and EAA Oshkosh was the best of them (except maybe Paris, but I couldn't say). The beret itself was secondary, maybe tertiary...I thought it would be cool to earn my find and SAR ribbons there. And the beret wasn't even on my mind when I went back as staff.

Of course, back then you couldn't wear berets except at NBB. But even if that rule didn't exist, it wouldn't have changed my reason for attending.

Quote from: arajca on April 10, 2010, 01:26:42 PM
Actually, many of us are arguing about the attitude and problems caused by the folks who get a hat for telling pilots where to go at an airshow...

And some are arguing about the proper way to address those attitudes and problems. Namely, it isn't to belittle something that while not meaning a whole lot to adults who have BTDT, to cadets is considered a notable accomplishment.

Quote from: N Harmon on April 12, 2010, 01:39:51 PM

Quote from: arajca on April 10, 2010, 01:26:42 PM
Actually, many of us are arguing about the attitude and problems caused by the folks who get a hat for telling pilots where to go at an airshow...

And some are arguing about the proper way to address those attitudes and problems. Namely, it isn't to belittle something that while not meaning a whole lot to adults who have BTDT, to cadets is considered a notable accomplishment.

The most successful way I've seen of handling the attitude is - no beret. Remove the beret and the attitude becomes a very minor issue that can be handled with a stern look or occassional word.

Semi On Topic:

I attended the Oshkosh Airshow as a participant several years ago (Boom Operator on a KC-10 that was on display and was also supporting the SR-71 on display).

Here's my question.

I attended the entire airshow (couldn't leave if I wanted to), and I was a current member of CAP at the time.

Am I entitled to wear the Blue Beret?

Looking at the requirements given to "earn" the beret, it's a toss up.

So what do you guys think?

And please, do not reply if you have not attended NBB.

I haven't attended, but I'll answer anyway.  I'd say no, if you weren't there as a CAP member.  If you were working for some other group (I'm assuming the military?) but didn't do what the CAP members were doing, you weren't earning it the same as they were.  Same thing if I was in the RM and training at Camp Atterbury during the recent spring encampment, doesn't mean I'm attending the encampment and get to wear the ribbon for it.

Quote from: arajca on April 12, 2010, 03:40:21 PM
The most successful way I've seen of handling the attitude is - no beret. Remove the beret and the attitude becomes a very minor issue that can be handled with a stern look or occassional word.

That isn't such a bad way of dealing with it. I'd probably use the beret as a carrot rather than a stick though. :)

Quote from: PHall on April 12, 2010, 04:03:14 PM
Am I entitled to wear the Blue Beret?

So what do you guys think?

I have attended NBB, twice, and the National Board minutes resolved that the blue beret must be awarded, so I don't think you are.

However, I am aware of no regulation which states you must have even attended a particular activity to wear that activity's patch, so I don't see why you couldn't wear a NBB patch.   ;D

Quote from: Dracosbane on April 12, 2010, 04:58:03 PM
I haven't attended, but I'll answer anyway.  I'd say no, if you weren't there as a CAP member.  If you were working for some other group (I'm assuming the military?) but didn't do what the CAP members were doing, you weren't earning it the same as they were.  Same thing if I was in the RM and training at Camp Atterbury during the recent spring encampment, doesn't mean I'm attending the encampment and get to wear the ribbon for it.

Uh, what part of "do not reply if you have not attended NBB" did you not understand?

I'm looking for an answer from people who have been there and know what they're talking about.
If you haven't been there then you probably do not know the "correct" answer.

Quote from: PHall on April 12, 2010, 05:44:08 PM

Quote from: Dracosbane on April 12, 2010, 04:58:03 PM
I haven't attended, but I'll answer anyway.  I'd say no, if you weren't there as a CAP member.  If you were working for some other group (I'm assuming the military?) but didn't do what the CAP members were doing, you weren't earning it the same as they were.  Same thing if I was in the RM and training at Camp Atterbury during the recent spring encampment, doesn't mean I'm attending the encampment and get to wear the ribbon for it.

Uh, what part of "do not reply if you have not attended NBB" did you not understand?

I'm looking for an answer from people who have been there and know what they're talking about.
If you haven't been there then you probably do not know the "correct" answer.

What makes you think that just because someone has been there....that they know how to make a correct reglatory interpetiation? :o

PHall...I have not been to NBB and neither have you....you went to Airventure at Oshkosh.....two seperate but related events.  ;D

Quote from: lordmonar on April 12, 2010, 07:38:51 PM

Quote from: PHall on April 12, 2010, 05:44:08 PM

Quote from: Dracosbane on April 12, 2010, 04:58:03 PM
I haven't attended, but I'll answer anyway.  I'd say no, if you weren't there as a CAP member.  If you were working for some other group (I'm assuming the military?) but didn't do what the CAP members were doing, you weren't earning it the same as they were.  Same thing if I was in the RM and training at Camp Atterbury during the recent spring encampment, doesn't mean I'm attending the encampment and get to wear the ribbon for it.

Uh, what part of "do not reply if you have not attended NBB" did you not understand?

I'm looking for an answer from people who have been there and know what they're talking about.
If you haven't been there then you probably do not know the "correct" answer.

What makes you think that just because someone has been there....that they know how to make a correct reglatory interpetiation? :o

PHall...I have not been to NBB and neither have you....you went to Airventure at Oshkosh.....two seperate but related events.  ;D

And I'm looking for an answer from of the "Folks-in-Charge". Something backed up with a reg cite would be awesome.

I have been to NBB 3 times, once as a cadet, twice as TACO

You would not qualify to wear the patch or beret because you were not on the roster for that year at NBB.

Attending the air show does not qualify you for recognition of NBB.

Just because you happened to be on lackland AFB when tech schools graduated, does that make you eligible to wear their distinctive insignia?

Quote from: NCRblues on April 12, 2010, 10:06:32 PM
I have been to NBB 3 times, once as a cadet, twice as TACO

You would not qualify to wear the patch or beret because you were not on the roster for that year at NBB.

Attending the air show does not qualify you for recognition of NBB.

Just because you happened to be on lackland AFB when tech schools graduated, does that make you eligible to wear their distinctive insignia?

Now please back up your NBB stuff with a reg cite.

And your Lackland AFB comparison is bogus because the Air Force reg does state that you must successfully complete the school to be awarded the AFSC which makes you eligible to wear the Specialty Insignia.

The AF Reg is specific, the CAP reg is not.

CAPR 52-16 notes that to earn credit for an encampment, one must complete 80% of that encampment..  One of my cadets, a Blue Beret, says the beret isn't given it is earned..

 >:(
What a joke, are we really going to argue about being able to where the beret and patch?

You must attend and earn the beret and patch...its that simple.

You want to wear the beret and patch because you happened to be at the air show? Fine, but that makes you a low life IMHO.

Way to disrespect those that have attended and work their a^% off helping make one of the worlds largest airshows run smooth. If you want to disrespect those cadets and senior members than go for it, but how sad is that? ::)

Tick-tock. Tick-tock. Tick-tock.  :(

Quote from: PHall on April 12, 2010, 04:03:14 PM
Semi On Topic:

I attended the Oshkosh Airshow as a participant several years ago (Boom Operator on a KC-10 that was on display and was also supporting the SR-71 on display).

Here's my question.

I attended the entire airshow (couldn't leave if I wanted to), and I was a current member of CAP at the time.

Am I entitled to wear the Blue Beret?

Looking at the requirements given to "earn" the beret, it's a toss up.

So what do you guys think?

And please, do not reply if you have not attended NBB.

The answer is; NO.
The National Board has allowed NCSA patches or berets "earned" by successful attendance and completion of the activity to be worn. (National Board minutes Summer 2006)  They must be "awarded" to the participant.

That's OK, Phil, you can probably make a really kool hat out of all your Wing Conference certificates.  ;) 8)

Quote from: NCRblues on April 13, 2010, 12:21:13 AM
You must attend and earn the beret and patch...its that simple.

Give me a reg cite, otherwise it's just a "personal opinion".

And I'm not interested in wearing the beret, the patch or anything else from NBB.  So please lose the 'tude.

I'm just pointing out that the regs are pretty loose and could use some attention.

Just like everything else in cap right?

You don't think their is anything more important than NCSA bling awarding for a reg rewrite?

let me make sure that I understand your question. 

You would like a reg cite on the following. 

You contend that you deserve the bling associated with a national special activity in which

1.  You did not apply
2.  You did not sign in
3.  You did not participate in
4.  You did not work for
5.  You did not pay for
6.  You did not receive credit for attending
7.  You did work for the air force as a part of your regular employment
8.  Your  work posted you at the same airport as the event

Do I have this correct?

If so I do not believe that there is a CAP regulation that will prove your point. 

I also dont believe that this is a good example to use to prove what ever point you are trying to make

^^ Gee.. sounds like a particular member in CAWG that figured they and their cadet offspring would wear the Columbia Mission citation award just because they were (purportedly) members of CAP during the same period, but not of CAWG, and just happened to participate in the recovery in another state closer to the activity, and probably actually did "more" than most of what went on in the western states, but were not there, even in that state, as CAP, but rather under the direction of another command all together.

So they wore the ribbon  when it was awarded to the wing on the basis they participated when the award said "members of CAWG at the time the mission happened".

Does that make them eligible because they did stuff at the same time? No. Did they do more than most of the wing? Probably.  Did it make it right? Absolutely not.

Quote from: a2capt on April 13, 2010, 04:02:12 AM
^^ Gee.. sounds like a particular member in CAWG that figured they and their cadet offspring would wear the Columbia Mission citation award just because they were (purportedly) members of CAP during the same period, but not of CAWG, and just happened to participate in the recovery in another state closer to the activity, and probably actually did "more" than most of what went on in the western states, but were not there, even in that state, as CAP, but rather under the direction of another command all together.

So they wore the ribbon  when it was awarded to the wing on the basis they participated when the award said "members of CAWG at the time the mission happened".

Does that make them eligible because they did stuff at the same time? No. Did they do more than most of the wing? Probably.  Did it make it right? Absolutely not.

Sorry to disappoint you, but no, that's not it. (I already have 4 Unit Citations)

What point are you trying to prove here PHall??.......  ???

I'm beginning to think that everything in CAP to be earned needs some orders or some type of paperwork to be awarded. And nothing should be awarded unless there is paperwork proving that you actually attended the training/activity/mission in the first place. Don't have proof? Then you don't get it.

To just put something on without having actually attended the training/activity/mission is pretty jacked. It's the same thing as wearing medals/badges/etc. that haven't been earned.

Quote from: NCRblues on April 13, 2010, 05:32:31 AM
What point are you trying to prove here PHall??.......  ???

I think that at least part of the point is that there is nothing preventing a member from seeing the wording backwards. Since blue berets can be authorized by the wing king per CAPM 39-1 for justification not including NBB, then that implies that the hat is NOT specific to the activity. NBB would therefore not have any more of a unique right to the hat than if I were to create an NCSA called "Black Shoulder Cord Academy". Simply having the black shoulder cord in the name of my activity and awarding them at graduation does not prevent them from being awarded by other authorities, as is allowable for both berets and black shoulder cords per the publications.

The regs don't specify that the beret "belongs" to NBB or the graduates. Without that specification, it's simply a specially-authorized piece of felt. I think that because the beret is authorizable for wear at more activities than just the NCSA, this loss in uniqueness also means that it really has no place in being compared to any NCSA patch.

I don't think that was his point.

I don't think anyone has said that NBB has a lock on the blue beret.

His point was something along the lines of that there are no regulations spelling out what one has to do to wear the NBB beret.

It is understood that you have to "attend" the NBB but it is not writtend down in any regulation.

I don't know why he is stirring this particular pot.

Quote from: lordmonar on April 13, 2010, 02:57:02 PM
His point was something along the lines of that there are no regulations spelling out what one has to do to wear the NBB beret.

It is understood that you have to "attend" the NBB but it is not writtend down in any regulation.

Well, there is a reg pointing out who is authorized to wear the blue beret, and, per the wing king's discretion, that's pretty much anybody. He can correct me if he wants, but my interpretation is that there is no reg preventing a non-NBB graduate from wearing the blue beret as often as an NBB graduate can.

And that is technically true. If the wing king uses commander's discretion to decide that a squadron meeting is an activity warranting the wear of a blue beret, then it can be done. NBB grads don't have any special "right" to the beret merely by merit of having attended the airshow. That's what the patch is for.

But besides that, he's also right that there is nothing dictating that there is such thing as the "NBB beret." There is simply a blue beret, the only beret authorized for wear in CAP, and one of the ways it can be authorized for wear is through graduation of the NBB activity. But it's not the only way, so if his wing commander wanted to authorize it for all wing activities, the regulation dictating the limitations on the authority to do so are vague enough that it would likely be hard to challenge. Hence, you end up with a wing full of beret-wearing members, and it would be legal.

Quote from: Nathan on April 13, 2010, 02:03:40 PMSince blue berets can be authorized by the wing king per CAPM 39-1 for justification not including NBB, then that implies that the hat is NOT specific to the activity....

The regs don't specify that the beret "belongs" to NBB or the graduates. Without that specification, it's simply a specially-authorized piece of felt. I think that because the beret is authorizable for wear at more activities than just the NCSA, this loss in uniqueness also means that it really has no place in being compared to any NCSA patch.

I can see your point, but I can think of ways it would be different. NBB uses the blue beret, but has a specific crest. Another activity may use it, but configure it differently.

As an example, if Hawk awarded a blue beret, but it had a cloth flash unique to Hawk, then those would be different awards. Hawk graduates couldn't (or shouldn't) wear a blue beret with the crest that NBB uses, or vice versa. Since the beret is the same, the only difference would be the emblems worn.

There are same color berets worn between the Army and Air Force, but the insignia is what shows the differences. And in some cases, the beret insignia might be the first noticed, and most obvious difference.

Quote from: Hawk200 on April 13, 2010, 07:59:51 PM

Quote from: Nathan on April 13, 2010, 02:03:40 PMSince blue berets can be authorized by the wing king per CAPM 39-1 for justification not including NBB, then that implies that the hat is NOT specific to the activity....

The regs don't specify that the beret "belongs" to NBB or the graduates. Without that specification, it's simply a specially-authorized piece of felt. I think that because the beret is authorizable for wear at more activities than just the NCSA, this loss in uniqueness also means that it really has no place in being compared to any NCSA patch.

I can see your point, but I can think of ways it would be different. NBB uses the blue beret, but has a specific crest. Another activity may use it, but configure it differently.

As an example, if Hawk awarded a blue beret, but it had a cloth flash unique to Hawk, then those would be different awards. Hawk graduates couldn't (or shouldn't) wear a blue beret with the crest that NBB uses, or vice versa. Since the beret is the same, the only difference would be the emblems worn.

There are same color berets worn between the Army and Air Force, but the insignia is what shows the differences. And in some cases, the beret insignia might be the first noticed, and most obvious difference.

Eh, I don't really have any of the pubs in front of me, and haven't seen that new letter from Gen Courter. But I will say that your argument does not work on principle alone.

I do not recall anything in the regulations that dictate the wear of flashes on the beret. I could be wrong; as I said, I don't have the regulation in front of me. But I only remember the BERET being authorized, and while I'm sure that implies that a flash may be worn with it, it doesn't say which flash can be worn. So, TECHNICALLY, the St. Alban's crest can be worn on the beret, no matter what. At least, if you were going to take this to the books.

On principle, you're right. It's the same principle that guides the wear of NCSA patches. BY THE BOOK, there is nothing preventing me from wearing a PJOC patch, despite the fact that I never went, since I did attend an NCSA and am therefore authorized to wear an NCSA. And if a person decides to wear a beret with an NBB pin attached to it, or a squadron patch, or a custom flash, there isn't anything in the regulations preventing that.

Of course, when we get to this level of barracks-lawyering, the person pushing the books is probably not so interested in ensuring fairness, and is more interested in picking a fight with someone. ;)

Quote from: Nathan on April 14, 2010, 02:59:43 AMEh, I don't really have any of the pubs in front of me, and haven't seen that new letter from Gen Courter. But I will say that your argument does not work on principle alone.

First of all, not an argument, just some food for thought.

Quote from: Nathan on April 14, 2010, 02:59:43 AMI do not recall anything in the regulations that dictate the wear of flashes on the beret.

There isn't anything on it. There's also nothing in the manual that says you actually have to have laces in your shoes or boots. Berets have some kind of insignia, it's just one of those givens.

Quote from: Nathan on April 14, 2010, 02:59:43 AM... But I only remember the BERET being authorized, and while I'm sure that implies that a flash may be worn with it, it doesn't say which flash can be worn. So, TECHNICALLY, the St. Alban's crest can be worn on the beret, no matter what. At least, if you were going to take this to the books.

I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that a person should wear the crest, flash, or combination of the two that is appropriate to the specific activity that the person attended. Wearing a beret with a St Albans signifies NBB attendance. If you didn't, it's a misrepresentation (at best). Technically, you're not saying that you did attend NBB if you're wearing it, people are going to assume (which in this case isn't a stupid assumption).

All in all, if people are going to acquire bling through technically's instead of actually's, then all the bling loses it's value. May as well not even have it.

Quote from: NBB0058 on April 12, 2010, 03:00:25 AM
I am fully aware of what Army Regulation 670-1 states,
but that is just an "Army Regulation" it has nothing to do with the C.A.P.

You should get your quote key checked.  There may be soda or something sticky under it.

Quote from: JC004 on April 14, 2010, 04:06:35 AM

Quote from: NBB0058 on April 12, 2010, 03:00:25 AM
I am fully aware of what Army Regulation 670-1 states,
but that is just an "Army Regulation" it has nothing to do with the C.A.P.

You should get your quote key checked.  There may be soda or something sticky under it.

How so?

Also, there is one thing that I do not believe has been mentioned yet,
The minutes from "that fateful national board meeting in 2006" that states that the blue beret and the hawk mountain bling can be worn on the BDUs at all times, that is the most current publication on the subject i believe.

When I was at National Staff College this year, I asked if CAPM 39-1 was going to be updated.  The answer I received is that there is a new Regulation (not a manual) already written but that it has not yet been published because of all the changes that are still being made. 

I would hope that a lot of the "grey" areas will be addressed so that we can spend less time talking about who and why someone can wear a beret, flash or ranger tab. 

Quote from: PHall on April 13, 2010, 05:18:04 AM
Sorry to disappoint you, but no, that's not it. (I already have 4 Unit Citations)

Actually, the intent of my post wasn't that this is what you were trying for, but rather likening it to the point you seemed to be going after, that the written regulation is vague and open for interpretation or such. That these members in their wisdom did the same thing except in that situation there is a lot less room for such interpretation as the award specifically says who were members of XXX wing at the time of the mission.

Quote from: NBB0058 on April 14, 2010, 07:05:32 AM
Also, there is one thing that I do not believe has been mentioned yet,
The minutes from "that fateful national board meeting in 2006" that states that the blue beret and the hawk mountain bling can be worn on the BDUs at all times, that is the most current publication on the subject i believe.

First off, so what? That really isn't at discussion here. We're discussing whether or not a non-NBB grad can pull off wearing the beret and flash.

Second, your post is the equivalent of saying, "Release the Kraken!"

Everybody knows there is an endless debate as to whether or not the minutes are worth anything. Some will argue that the decision is regulatory as soon as it's made by the NB, which means that we can wear the beret. Others will argue that the decision needs to be put into written form, and that we can't wear the beret until there is either a new regulation or update letter released permitting that.

We've been having that debate for four years, and bringing it up now in a thread that is not even discussing anything around that topic seems mighty close to trolling. ::)

Quote from: Nathan on April 14, 2010, 03:23:25 PM
Everybody knows there is an endless debate as to whether or not the minutes are worth anything. Some will argue that the decision is regulatory as soon as it's made by the NB, which means that we can wear the beret. Others will argue that the decision needs to be put into written form, and that we can't wear the beret until there is either a new regulation or update letter released permitting that.

Not to mention a trivial little thing like getting the Air Force, who has control over the AF style uniforms and what is worn with/on them, to approve it first. 

I was certain that one of the ICLs contained a statement that the beret and Hawk ranger tabs were pending Air Force approval, but that they were approved for wear on the blue BDU (as that one isn't subject to AF scrutiny).  I'll be darned if I could find it yesterday when I looked for it though.

Quote from: Slim on April 15, 2010, 04:05:50 AM

Quote from: Nathan on April 14, 2010, 03:23:25 PM
Everybody knows there is an endless debate as to whether or not the minutes are worth anything. Some will argue that the decision is regulatory as soon as it's made by the NB, which means that we can wear the beret. Others will argue that the decision needs to be put into written form, and that we can't wear the beret until there is either a new regulation or update letter released permitting that.

Not to mention a trivial little thing like getting the Air Force, who has control over the AF style uniforms and what is worn with/on them, to approve it first. 

I was certain that one of the ICLs contained a statement that the beret and Hawk ranger tabs were pending Air Force approval, but that they were approved for wear on the blue BDU (as that one isn't subject to AF scrutiny).  I'll be darned if I could find it yesterday when I looked for it though.

Correct, its in the KB notes as well.

The only place the beret can be worn over the camos is NBB.

While I don't know where it's stated now, but I knew at one point that the wear of beret flashes were only dictated by the fact that they couldn't be currently used by military units.  We used to wear flashes, and just before I was "awarded" my beret (made the team) they got rid of the three that had been used for a while because, it seems, someone realized that they were current military flashes. 

I'd always considered that someone should have come up with a CAP specific flash as the beret always looked a little bare after having seen everyone wearing them for so long.  I guess that never came about.

Quote from: PHall on April 12, 2010, 04:03:14 PM
Semi On Topic:

I attended the Oshkosh Airshow as a participant several years ago (Boom Operator on a KC-10 that was on display and was also supporting the SR-71 on display).

Here's my question. I attended the entire airshow (couldn't leave if I wanted to), and I was a current member of CAP at the time. Am I entitled to wear the Blue Beret?

Looking at the requirements given to "earn" the beret, it's a toss up. So what do you guys think?
And please, do not reply if you have not attended NBB.

I attended NBB last year as Delta flight commander. Allow me to answer your question by quoting the resolution passed at the 2006 CAP National Board (you can find the minutes on CAP Knowledgebase by searching "beret"):
"All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.
MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations." (note that CAPM 39-1 hasn't been updated since 2005)

To answer your question, PHall, no, you could not, because you did not attend the Blue Beret training, and were not awarded the head gear.

As for the NBB 'tude problem, I'll admit, it can be an issue. Why? First off, let me state that I've noticed CAP cadets in general have more self confidence than the majority of our peers. We know we are successful at life. We volunteer our time doing something worthwhile. Some of us have done SAR missions, found downed aircraft, and/or saved lives. We know how to carry ourselves with professionalism, we know how to stay motivated, we know how to persevere or sacrifice personal comfort for the sake of a mission. We aren't your average teenager, and we know it. Taken too far, however, that self confidence can easily come off as arrogance.

As per NBB, there's a feeling of camaraderie that is developed by working and living together 24/7 for two weeks at the airshow. You are doing something as a teen that most adults never do. You are partially responsible for ensuring the largest airshow in the world runs smoothly, that security is done well, that people don't get hurt, and that missing aircraft are located. It is tiring, mentally and physically. Its a big responsibility, and demands a lot of discipline. The St. Alban's pin is the symbol of that volunteer work; volunteering that time to help others, doing that security shift on the flight line in pouring rain at 0300 hrs. The beret is just a piece of felt, but people know what it stands for. You can look across a field of cadets and pick out NBB graduates, and know they have that similar experience, that common ground, with you. And you know you can rely on them in a tough spot, because you've both been there before, and passed.

The beret itself is not the special thing; its what it signifies. Cadets who don't understand that, shouldn't be berets. And cadets that do, should not give trouble with their attitude. Important to remember is that the beret is awarded at NBB, but thereafter cadets must continue demonstrating the NBB pledge in order to keep it - yes, a NBB graduate can lose their beret at any time. This is our creed; this is what we had to exemplify to earn our beret, and this is what we must continue to exemplify, to continue wearing it.

I am a Blue Beret. I am my country and Civil Air Patrol expect me to be: the best of American youth, and an example of leadership for today and the future.
Never will I fail that trust.
Therefore, I pledge to perform to the highest degree of professionalism. My dedication to the service of others, rendered with respect and humility, is the outward sign of this pledge.
I am a leader who exhibits the highest level of integrity and am dedicated to the well being of my comrades and community.
I understand that to wear a Blue Beret is a great honor.
Therefore, I forsake not:
My Country;
My Mission;
My Comrades;
My Duty.
I am a Blue Beret.
FOLLOW ME!

^^ Well said

Quote from: ES Ninja on March 17, 2011, 03:52:47 PM

Quote from: PHall on April 12, 2010, 04:03:14 PM
Semi On Topic:

I attended the Oshkosh Airshow as a participant several years ago (Boom Operator on a KC-10 that was on display and was also supporting the SR-71 on display).

Here's my question. I attended the entire airshow (couldn't leave if I wanted to), and I was a current member of CAP at the time. Am I entitled to wear the Blue Beret?

Looking at the requirements given to "earn" the beret, it's a toss up. So what do you guys think?
And please, do not reply if you have not attended NBB.

I attended NBB last year as Delta flight commander. Allow me to answer your question by quoting the resolution passed at the 2006 CAP National Board (you can find the minutes on CAP Knowledgebase by searching "beret"):
"All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.
MOTION CARRIED
FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations." (note that CAPM 39-1 hasn't been updated since 2005)

To answer your question, PHall, no, you could not, because you did not attend the Blue Beret training, and were not awarded the head gear.

As for the NBB 'tude problem, I'll admit, it can be an issue. Why? First off, let me state that I've noticed CAP cadets in general have more self confidence than the majority of our peers. We know we are successful at life. We volunteer our time doing something worthwhile. Some of us have done SAR missions, found downed aircraft, and/or saved lives. We know how to carry ourselves with professionalism, we know how to stay motivated, we know how to persevere or sacrifice personal comfort for the sake of a mission. We aren't your average teenager, and we know it. Taken too far, however, that self confidence can easily come off as arrogance.

As per NBB, there's a feeling of camaraderie that is developed by working and living together 24/7 for two weeks at the airshow. You are doing something as a teen that most adults never do. You are partially responsible for ensuring the largest airshow in the world runs smoothly, that security is done well, that people don't get hurt, and that missing aircraft are located. It is tiring, mentally and physically. Its a big responsibility, and demands a lot of discipline. The St. Alban's pin is the symbol of that volunteer work; volunteering that time to help others, doing that security shift on the flight line in pouring rain at 0300 hrs. The beret is just a piece of felt, but people know what it stands for. You can look across a field of cadets and pick out NBB graduates, and know they have that similar experience, that common ground, with you. And you know you can rely on them in a tough spot, because you've both been there before, and passed.

The beret itself is not the special thing; its what it signifies. Cadets who don't understand that, shouldn't be berets. And cadets that do, should not give trouble with their attitude. Important to remember is that the beret is awarded at NBB, but thereafter cadets must continue demonstrating the NBB pledge in order to keep it - yes, a NBB graduate can lose their beret at any time. This is our creed; this is what we had to exemplify to earn our beret, and this is what we must continue to exemplify, to continue wearing it.

I am a Blue Beret. I am my country and Civil Air Patrol expect me to be: the best of American youth, and an example of leadership for today and the future.
Never will I fail that trust.
Therefore, I pledge to perform to the highest degree of professionalism. My dedication to the service of others, rendered with respect and humility, is the outward sign of this pledge.
I am a leader who exhibits the highest level of integrity and am dedicated to the well being of my comrades and community.
I understand that to wear a Blue Beret is a great honor.
Therefore, I forsake not:
My Country;
My Mission;
My Comrades;
My Duty.
I am a Blue Beret.
FOLLOW ME!

In other words, PHall didnt pay his money.

Quote from: ES Ninja on March 17, 2011, 03:52:47 PM
And you know you can rely on them in a tough spot, because you've both been there before, and passed.

Doesn't that argument generally work only if many people do not pass NBB?

The only people I recall being kicked out of NBB are people who committed gross misconduct violations. I cannot recall anyone who actually "failed" NBB, nor imagine how that would be possible. No one doubts that it's a pretty fatiguing job, but is it possible to "pass" something that nobody really fails? Is that really a measure of true distinction?

I'm not saying this to be combative, but rather to figure out where your justification is coming from. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your school. People who went to the most laid-back, easy school in CAP can still be proud of their participation. Why not just be proud at having attended the activity? Is there a need to try to justify that NBB participants went through something significantly more worthy of "specialness" than a graduate of any other activity?

NBB was nowhere near the most difficult activity I attended. I formed closer bonds with my flight from COS and my IACE group, and found a non-CAP survival school I attended to be more physically demanding. I'm proud that I was part of NBB, and content with the work I did there. But, based on my experience, it wasn't something that needs to be put on a pedestal. I always feel the need to check why members feel the need to isolate it from other activities, especially in defense of the beret wear.

And, just out of curiosity, are they still insisting that NBB participants be called "blue berets"? Argh. We are not hats... >:(

Quote from: Nathan on March 23, 2011, 03:25:35 PM

Quote from: ES Ninja on March 17, 2011, 03:52:47 PM
And you know you can rely on them in a tough spot, because you've both been there before, and passed.

Doesn't that argument generally work only if many people do not pass NBB?

The only people I recall being kicked out of NBB are people who committed gross misconduct violations. I cannot recall anyone who actually "failed" NBB, nor imagine how that would be possible. No one doubts that it's a pretty fatiguing job, but is it possible to "pass" something that nobody really fails? Is that really a measure of true distinction?

I'm not saying this to be combative, but rather to figure out where your justification is coming from. There is nothing wrong with being proud of your school. People who went to the most laid-back, easy school in CAP can still be proud of their participation. Why not just be proud at having attended the activity? Is there a need to try to justify that NBB participants went through something significantly more worthy of "specialness" than a graduate of any other activity?

NBB was nowhere near the most difficult activity I attended. I formed closer bonds with my flight from COS and my IACE group, and found a non-CAP survival school I attended to be more physically demanding. I'm proud that I was part of NBB, and content with the work I did there. But, based on my experience, it wasn't something that needs to be put on a pedestal. I always feel the need to check why members feel the need to isolate it from other activities, especially in defense of the beret wear.

And, just out of curiosity, are they still insisting that NBB participants be called "blue berets"? Argh. We are not hats... >:(

Well, there is a movement among some NBB folks that will not wear the beret (me included) other than one time. The only time I will wear mine is when the new attendees get their own. Other than that it goes back in my *cap stuff* box for next year.

If the cadets want to put HAWK, NBB, PJOC ext.. on a pedestal than so be it. As long as they do not have a "tude" about it than smile and nod and move on. If they pop a "tude" correct it. But at the same time as an adult we must remember, (insert activity here) may have been the hardest thing that kid cadet has done in life so far. So of course they are going to be proud.

When i TAC up at beret, i try my darnedest to make sure my flight understand that i do not tolerate the "tude" from anyone. There is no reason for it in anything CAP does.

NBB is probably one of the most rewarding activity's you can do as a cadet or SM, the amount of thanks and praise that the members receive up at Oshkosh is amazing. I have had pilots on the taxi way hold up signs that says "thank god for the CAP", others get there picture taken every year with the first cadet marshaller they see. CAP has become a tradition up at Airventure, not just inside CAP, but in the G.A. community as well. As such, IMHO of course, I want the members up at Oshkosh to hold themselves high and proud and look good for the general public. If giving out a blue french surrender kit, i mean beret, helps the cadets keep the pride that the public needs to see up there, than so be it.

So I just got back from NBB, and while I am proud of myself for completing it... I feel embarrased that a discussion/argument etc over this topic can carry on for so long, and I feel like I don't want to wear my beret anymore. Here is the time line for me:

-Signed up for Blue Beret for the fun of the activity (Thought my wing Commander didnt let us wear the berets anyway)
-Got back home and found out my Wing Commander does allow them, yeah, I was happy.
-Started reading through the debates behind this thing, and now I feel embarrassed and I'm not so excited to wear it anymore.

So my question for all of you, who have argued your points over and over again... Should I wear my beret and be labled as a pompass ass who is arrogant and stuck up, or should I hide my beret away and forget about it... Honestly I'd love to wear my beret, I am proud to say I have earned it based on the requirements provided by NBB, but I will not ever parade around bragging about it. Only explaining if asked. But if I'm going to be wrongly and negativley labled for wearing it, then I dont want to wear it... I'm very torn here.

A simple yes or no would be much appriciated.

Quote from: Zen Master Charlie on August 05, 2011, 07:45:09 AMShould I wear my beret and be labled as a pompass ass who is arrogant and stuck up, or should I hide my beret away and forget about it...

Sorry but your question can not be answered with a simple yes or no.  First, anyone who labels you based on your wearing an authorized uniform item, is not anyone you should concern yourself with. If you want to wear it, and it is allowed, then go for it.  Perhaps you can counter the arrogant stigma that so many associate with NBB.

Personally, I find the beret less comfortable than my squadron ball cap, so mine just collects dust.

In most cases, it's an issue of uniformity. Nothing like seeing a squadron picture with that ONE guy sticking out like a sore thumb. But if it's allowed and you wear it, so be it. The true test is when the unit commander says "all BDUs, all Patrol Caps". How you respond to that is what will form people's opinion about you.

I just got back from nbb as well and I will say if its approved for wear in your wing then go for it! you earned it! I wear mine when its not ridiculously hot out. Just make sure you represent it well because if people have that attitude about nbb people then there was someone who was a pompass ass who was arrogant and stuck up...like others have said...prove them that not all berets are like that.


just my opinion...take it how you want it.

Quote from: Zen Master Charlie on August 05, 2011, 07:45:09 AM
So my question for all of you, who have argued your points over and over again... Should I wear my beret and be labled as a pompass ass who is arrogant and stuck up, or should I hide my beret away and forget about it... Honestly I'd love to wear my beret, I am proud to say I have earned it based on the requirements provided by NBB, but I will not ever parade around bragging about it. Only explaining if asked. But if I'm going to be wrongly and negativley labled for wearing it, then I dont want to wear it... I'm very torn here.

A simple yes or no would be much appriciated.

A simple yes or no is simply impossible to give. However, my attempt at such would be to say no and no.

I earned my beret in '08 and, since it is not authorized by 39-1 or any ICL thereto, it sits on display on a shelf in my room along with the patch and challenge coin. I bring it out to meetings on occasion, along with other items, when I give a presentation on NCSAs, and then it goes back on the shelf. So to answer your question, should you wear it, no because it's not currently authorized outside of NBB. Should you hide it and forget about it, absolutely not because you worked hard and earned it.

That's just my opinion. When I was a squadron commander I didn't let anyone at the squadron wear a beret from NBB nor did I allow cadets from other squadrons wear it when participating in activities with us. If your wing/group/squadron commanders all say that you can wear it, then it's your choice to wear it or not.

Quote from: jeders on August 05, 2011, 01:55:31 PM
I earned my beret in '08 and, since it is not authorized by 39-1 or any ICL thereto, it sits on display on a shelf in my room along with the patch and challenge coin. I bring it out to meetings on occasion, along with other items, when I give a presentation on NCSAs, and then it goes back on the shelf. So to answer your question, should you wear it, no because it's not currently authorized outside of NBB. Should you hide it and forget about it, absolutely not because you worked hard and earned it.

Jeders, you're going to get one of the nice holiday cards this year!

ZMC - it is possible to be a pompous ass without a beret, and to wear a beret and not be one. 

The hat has nothing to do with the activity or the experience - the fact that we (CAP, Inc.,) has allowed what is otherwise a fun and worthwhile activity to become, for many, more about the hat then the function, shows the challenges we have in the leadership we purport to provide to young people.

My advice is to lead by example, sew on the NCSA patch, speak well of your experience, and leave the beret at home.

Quote from: Irishrenegade on August 05, 2011, 01:08:07 PM
I just got back from nbb as well and I will say if its approved for wear in your wing then go for it! you earned it! I wear mine when its not ridiculously hot out. Just make sure you represent it well because if people have that attitude about nbb people then there was someone who was a pompass ass who was arrogant and stuck up...like others have said...prove them that not all berets are like that.


just my opinion...take it how you want it.

Hey... I know you!  ;)  Well, beret or not atleast my girlfriend doesnt own a VW bug...  ;D

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2011, 02:54:48 PM

ZMC - it is possible to be a pompous ass without a beret, and to wear a beret and not be one. 

The hat has nothing to do with the activity or the experience - the fact that we (CAP, Inc.,) has allowed what is otherwise a fun and worthwhile activity to become, for many, more about the hat then the function, shows the challenges we have in the leadership we purport to provide to young people.

I 100% agree, In my opinion, if someone goes to NBB for the Beret, and comes back a jerk... something tells me they were a jerk before NBB anyway, or were going to be one, NBB or not. I think the beret doesnt bring on the jerk attitude, but rather brings it out because its always been there.  :(

Quote from: Zen Master Charlie on August 05, 2011, 07:45:09 AMSo my question for all of you, who have argued your points over and over again... Should I wear my beret and be labled as a pompass ass who is arrogant and stuck up, or should I hide my beret away and forget about it... Honestly I'd love to wear my beret, I am proud to say I have earned it based on the requirements provided by NBB, but I will not ever parade around bragging about it. Only explaining if asked. But if I'm going to be wrongly and negativley labled for wearing it, then I dont want to wear it... I'm very torn here.

A simple yes or no would be much appriciated.

You should ask your squadron commander and do what he wants.

Don't worry about what we or anyone else says about wearing or not wear the beret.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 05, 2011, 07:53:53 PM

Quote from: Zen Master Charlie on August 05, 2011, 07:45:09 AMSo my question for all of you, who have argued your points over and over again... Should I wear my beret and be labled as a pompass ass who is arrogant and stuck up, or should I hide my beret away and forget about it... Honestly I'd love to wear my beret, I am proud to say I have earned it based on the requirements provided by NBB, but I will not ever parade around bragging about it. Only explaining if asked. But if I'm going to be wrongly and negativley labled for wearing it, then I dont want to wear it... I'm very torn here.

A simple yes or no would be much appriciated.

You should ask your squadron commander and do what he wants.

Don't worry about what we or anyone else says about wearing or not wear the beret.

We had a meeting last night and I decided not to wear it, but everyone including our Squadron CC asked why I wasnt wearing it...  :(

A simple "it's not authorized for wear outside NBB..." would have ended the conversation nicely.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2011, 08:55:25 PM
A simple "it's not authorized for wear outside NBB..." would have ended the conversation nicely.

but that is not a true statement  >:D

Quote from: lordmonar on August 05, 2011, 08:59:53 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2011, 08:55:25 PM
A simple "it's not authorized for wear outside NBB..." would have ended the conversation nicely.

but that is not a true statement

Good luck with that...

ZMC - what did they tell you in this regard at NBB?

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2011, 02:54:48 PM

Quote from: jeders on August 05, 2011, 01:55:31 PM
I earned my beret in '08 and, since it is not authorized by 39-1 or any ICL thereto, it sits on display on a shelf in my room along with the patch and challenge coin. I bring it out to meetings on occasion, along with other items, when I give a presentation on NCSAs, and then it goes back on the shelf. So to answer your question, should you wear it, no because it's not currently authorized outside of NBB. Should you hide it and forget about it, absolutely not because you worked hard and earned it.

Jeders, you're going to get one of the nice holiday cards this year!

Thanks, the not nice ones I get have a tendency to blow up.   :D >:D

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2011, 09:02:37 PM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 05, 2011, 08:59:53 PM

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2011, 08:55:25 PM
A simple "it's not authorized for wear outside NBB..." would have ended the conversation nicely.

but that is not a true statement

Good luck with that...

ZMC - what did they tell you in this regard at NBB?

They tell them its authorized (but to follow whatever the local commanders say)  ,  because that's what Curt Lafond and Mrs. Parker and the KB says...

So, if you have a massive insights into what the NB meant when they passed the beret and hawk tabs as authorized, I'm sure NHQ would love to hear it, because they disagree with you.... and they are well...in charge

Neither Mr. Lafond, Ms. Parker, nor the KB have authority on this matter.  They have an opinion like everyone else, but no more authority than you or I.  Further, Mr. Lafond is an SME for the CP, why would he have input on an ES / uniform question?  Cadets are not the only ones wearing the beret.

The entirety of the argument rests on an ambiguous sentence that was never followed up on nor clarified, hardly "final".

In the 6 years since that sentence, the powers that be have had ample time to clarify and end these discussions, yet they have chosen not to. I have no idea why, but that doesn't make it the writ, especially in that the sentences themselves need further approval from the USAF to fully implement - a permission that AFAIK has never been requested or received.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2011, 10:22:09 PM
Neither Mr. Lafond, Ms. Parker, nor the KB have authority on this matter.  They have an opinion like everyone else, but no more authority than you or I.  Further, Mr. Lafond is an SME for the CP, why would he have input on an ES / uniform question?  Cadets are not the only ones wearing the beret.

The entirety of the argument rests on an ambiguous sentence that was never followed up on nor clarified, hardly "final".

In the 6 years since that sentence, the powers that be have had ample time to clarify and end these discussions, yet they have chosen not to. I have no idea why, but that doesn't make it the writ, especially in that the sentences themselves need further approval from the USAF to fully implement - a permission that AFAIK has never been requested or received.

We have gone over this before. NB motions are effective immediately. The AF had already approved the wear of the beret, we did not need to go back and ask permission again. Its an up or down thing. The AF says yes or no, we (cap) place the limit on when and where something can be worn, the AF does not care, nor has the time to deal with petty issues like this. 39-1 has not been upgraded for a long time, that argument holds no weight at all.

Mr. Lafond was the POC for NCSA's, and Mrs. Parker is the POC for all questions correct? So they lied to 200 CAP members and several members of the NEC and NB then eclipse?

Why is this such a big deal? Its authorized, get over it.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 05, 2011, 10:22:09 PM
Neither Mr. Lafond, Ms. Parker, nor the KB have authority on this matter.  They have an opinion like everyone else, but no more authority than you or I.  Further, Mr. Lafond is an SME for the CP, why would he have input on an ES / uniform question?  Cadets are not the only ones wearing the beret.

The entirety of the argument rests on an ambiguous sentence that was never followed up on nor clarified, hardly "final".

In the 6 years since that sentence, the powers that be have had ample time to clarify and end these discussions, yet they have chosen not to. I have no idea why, but that doesn't make it the writ, especially in that the sentences themselves need further approval from the USAF to fully implement - a permission that AFAIK has never been requested or received.

And in that six years no one has stopped KB, Mr Lafond or Ms Parker from telling us it is authorised.  So there you go...back to square one...and my original advice to the OP.

As his commander and follow his instructions....because until NHQ and/or the NB gives us better information we fall back to commander's interpetation.  I won't give you a hard time if YOU tell your members not to wear it.  I won't give a wing commander or regional commander who does the same.

But by the same token I don't want anyone giving my cadets a hard time when my commander lets them wear their berets.

Quote from: NCRblues on August 05, 2011, 10:28:32 PMThe AF had already approved the wear of the beret, we did not need to go back and ask permission again. Its an up or down thing. The AF says yes or no, we (cap) place the limit on when and where something can be worn, the AF does not care, nor has the time to deal with petty issues like this. 39-1 has not been upgraded for a long time, that argument holds no weight at all.

Cite please.

The USAF approved its wear for a very narrow subset of members at a specific activity, as outlined in 39-1.  I am unaware they have ever
reconsidered it for any other wear.

Quote from: NCRblues on August 05, 2011, 10:28:32 PM
Mr. Lafond was the POC for NCSA's, and Mrs. Parker is the POC for all questions correct? So they lied to 200 CAP members and several members of the NEC and NB then eclipse?

Why is this such a big deal? Its authorized, get over it.

Activity POC's have limited authority over their activities, and that authority is only within and regarding that activity, and does not allow for the relaxation of regulations on a whim.  So at most, an NCSA POC could dictate headgear within and during that activity, not wholesale across the organization, any more than NESA can authorize the wear of the MAS "alternative uniform" of shorts and t-shirt or golf shirt for wear at a squadron meeting just because the activity POC authorized it.

All of us reading this know that CAP is all over the road in regards to the way it has been governed for at least a decade, we have conflicting regulations which purport to be the sole authority, time-locked ICL's with no expiration date which conflict with the regs,
and routinely issued directives from the board and NEC level which include directives for clarification and publication and the latter never happens.

Further, we all know people will do what they will do, regardless of regulations if it suits their fancy. (i.e. boonies, medics, encampment hats with metal grade on them, etc.).

That doesn't change the academic discussion of whether and if something was done in a way it was "legal" (in a CAP context), or who has the authority to change or dictate policy, procedures, and regulations.

To quote the single sentence issued on this which is the basis of the entire argument and supposed authorization:

See August 2006 National Board Minutes

All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.

FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations.

Since the follow-on action never occurred, and we are to take that as "The Word", then there is no reason to ask anyone for permission, as the question has already been answered at the highest level possible, and as such, that includes berets, tabs, patches wherever HMRS decides to put them, belts, whistles, white-laced linesman boots, and whatever else is on the list.

There is no provision here for "local discretion", especially with the stuff which is sewn on.  So is that where we are?  Because the USAF hasn't approved any of that stuff, either, and people are purporting local authority to limit the things they don't like.

And in the end of all this, a lot of the reason for my reticence is the way this was done.

Berets and HMRS stuff have been contentious issues for years - certainly the entity of the 12 years I've been in - so when the issue comes
up to extend the areas they can be worn, resulting in more confusion and contention regardless, instead of writing a direct paragraph
to end the discussions, a work-product staff meeting discussion and vote is allowed to not only authorize the wear, but be the sole
and only verbiage on the subject for 6 years.

It makes the Second Amendment look like a flow chart.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 06, 2011, 02:03:38 AMCite please.

The USAF approved its wear for a very narrow subset of members at a specific activity, as outlined in 39-1.  I am unaware they have ever
reconsidered it for any other wear.

WTF?  A narrow subset of people?  Like anyone the wing commander said could wear it?

Talk about cite Please.  Where do you come up with this?

As for USAF approval......we don't have to get approval for every single little thing.  The USAF already said we can wear the blue beret.  They have not  had any problem with the NBB'ers wearing at the bloody air show....why would they have a problem with us wearing at our home stations.

Again....this has been going on for a long time....and as far as I know the USAF has not said peep about it.

Quote from: lordmonar on August 06, 2011, 04:28:09 AMWTF?  A narrow subset of people?  Like anyone the wing commander said could wear it?

No, like, as per 39-1, only members who participate in the special activity that awards it, and only during that activity.
The only regulatory document fully vetted and approved by the USAF is 39-1, everything else was done by CAP with no apparent input or consultation of anyone at the USAF. 

Quote from: lordmonar on August 06, 2011, 04:28:09 AM
As for USAF approval......we don't have to get approval for every single little thing.

Really?  And yet when they authorized boonies for field wear, they explicitly note they can't be worn until approved by the USAF (which to date, they have not). 

In fact, you and I both know that the USAF does have to approve "every little thing", and in fact, according to a number of people on this
forum, that includes both USAF-Style and corporate uniforms.

Every little thing.

Why haven't they said anything?  No idea.  Doesn't change a thing.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 06, 2011, 02:03:38 AMThe USAF approved its wear for a very narrow subset of members at a specific activity, as outlined in 39-1.  I am unaware they have ever reconsidered it for any other wear.

The beret has been around since at least the 1980s. And back then it could be worn anywhere, not just at the activity. Thus the original USAF approval must have allowed more than the narrow conditions currently in 39-1. And it was CAP who implemented those conditions. CAP's self-imposed restrictions do not cause the USAF's approval to lapse. Only the USAF can rescind their approval. Thus CAP can drop those conditions without re-request permission from the USAF.

It would be like if the NB went crazy and decided CAP members could no longer wear the service cap. It would have no effect on the original USAF approval for Civil Air Patrol to wear that item. Thus a few years later they could reintroduce it without asking the USAF because the USAF's answer was "yes" all along.

Or...the USAF said, "...we don't like you wearing berets...", so they are now restricted to special activities, which is far more likely.

Conjecture aside, being a reg involving uniforms, the USAF is supposed to vet and approve changes, why they are changed is not the point,
and today it is very specific, with nothing regulatory or USAF-approved having changed that.

Does anyone really think the USAF reviewed or is even aware of that single sentence from a board meeting?  Especially since a follow-on was expected and never executed?

The repeated assertion is also that Wing CC's can authorize anything they want headgear-wise, and to that, again, I say "boonies".

Quote from: Eclipse on August 06, 2011, 05:48:21 AM
Or...the USAF said, we don't like you wearing berets, so they are now restricted to special activities.

Conjecture aside, being a reg involving uniforms, the USAF is supposed to vet and approve changes, why they are changed is not the point,
and today it is very specific, with nothing regulatory or USAF-approved having changed that.

Does anyone really think the USAF reviewed or is even aware of that single sentence from a board meeting?  Especially since a follow-on was expected and never executed?

Ok so here is the question eclipse...

Is NHQ (in the form of Mrs. Parker, and Mr. LaFond) wrong when they say it is authorized? If you believe so, please cite your sources.

If they are wrong, than who is correct?

Do i get to pick and choose which regs, or NB items i get to follow because I have never seen the AF approval behind any of them?

Yes, I believe they are, and I've stated my specific position on this about 12 times.  I can't cite a negative, which is the point of my position.

No one is correct, and that's the problem.  The change was made incorrectly, was not followed-on as it should have been, and was never approved by the USAF.  This isn't even an ICL, and authorizes actions beyond the authority of the NB.

The people at NHQ are citing what they believe to be the intent of the action and / or the steady state of the regs if they are ever fixed.

They are also, apparently, telling people cadets can wear the marksmanship badge.

So you there you are.

Yes, it is possible that the USAF actually did rescind our permission to wear the beret. If that were the case, do you believe the SMEs at NHQ would be insisting the prior approval was still valid? :P

The simple fact is that it isn't in the reg, so you will never be wrong not wearing it.

So, correct me if i am wrong on any of this but,

You believe the people at NHQ who get paid to deal with issues like this every day are wrong.

You also believe the NB action was never followed up on, or that the AF is just to busy to read out meeting minutes (even though CAP-USAF is in the room, and adds concur or non-concur to every agenda item).

You also believe no one is correct on this issue.

So the NB acting within the power granted by the CAP constitution and bylaws acted, and it passed with at least a simple majority vote of the NB, and they we wrong?

So you need to see a sheet of paper signed by (who btw?) that says, "yes, wear of the beret is authorized" signed COl. Snuffy cap-usaf? Because if that's the road you want to go down, CAP is in serious trouble, we have a lot of uniform items that need that paper than.....

Quote from: NCRblues on August 06, 2011, 06:07:37 AMYou believe the people at NHQ who get paid to deal with issues like this every day are wrong.

Yes.  I respect and value their contributions, but there have been any number of occasions where they have provided incorrect information, or an interpretation outside their authority.

Quote from: NCRblues on August 06, 2011, 06:07:37 AM
You also believe the NB action was never followed up on,

"FOLLOW-ON ACTION: National Headquarters implementation of policy, notification to the field and change to appropriate CAP regulations."
We all know for a fact this was never done.

Quote from: NCRblues on August 06, 2011, 06:07:37 AM
or that the AF is just to busy to read out meeting minutes (even though CAP-USAF is in the room, and adds concur or non-concur to every agenda item).

This was a "new-business" item by the NB, and there is no indication of any comment either way by CAP-USAF.  Col. Hodgkins is indicated as being present, but not noted in this agenda item.  It has never been mentioned or discussed on the record by the NEC or NB since that time 
6 years ago.

Quote from: NCRblues on August 06, 2011, 06:07:37 AM
So the NB acting within the power granted by the CAP constitution and bylaws acted, and it passed with at least a simple majority vote of the NB, and they we wrong?

The board has the power to act in any way they wish, but the AFI's reserve the authority over USAF-style uniforms.

Quote from: NCRblues on August 06, 2011, 06:07:37 AM
So you need to see a sheet of paper signed by (who btw?) that says, "yes, wear of the beret is authorized" signed COl. Snuffy cap-usaf? Because if that's the road you want to go down, CAP is in serious trouble,

Yes, the document(s) I am referring to are called "regulations", or at the least an "ICL", though there are those that would have an issue with that.  I, myself, have argued that NEC and board actions are effective immediately, however in this case the statement is too vague to be used as a basis for anything but selective, benevolent, authorization (i.e. I can do whatever I want).   We're assuming this is primarily berets, but they don't wear berets at HMRS, yet they are also mentioned.

Unless this vague sentence authorizes tabs, belts, and other HMRS bling, it can't be used as the basis of wear of the beret outside NBB, since the HMRS bling would also require CAP-USAF approval, and it not mentioned anywhere in 39-1.

Quote from: NCRblues on August 06, 2011, 06:07:37 AM
we have a lot of uniform items that need that paper than

Yes, we do.  In fact, everything we wear is supposed to have specific authorization and definition.  Our regulations regarding uniforms are a mess.

Well, i wish you the best of luck with all that eclipse...

But I'm going to follow what those at NHQ have to say because well....they speak on behalf of the commander, and in our oath we say "I agree to abide by the decisions of those in authority of the Civil Air Patrol".

NHQ staffers are not in the chain of command, nor do they have any rights granted by the constitution.  Many are tasked with director status over specific activities, etc., but they do not have the golden pen in regards to regulations.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 06, 2011, 05:54:55 AM
I can't cite a negative, which is the point of my position.

No one is correct, and that's the problem. 

Im ashamed... you harp on me for citations all the time yet in this situation you yourself are arguing for something you can't cite... Thats reason enough for me, if Eclipse can't cite it, then I can wear it!  ::) 

So all in all gentlemen (and ladies (I don't think there were any on this discussion but I didn't check)) No one can prove anything here... some argue the NB decision is correct (which I side with because of the fact that CAP-USAF was present, and had it been the wrong decision, Col H would have stepped in and said something) and others argue that if its not in the regulation, then its not approved... Which, as much as I wan't this to be true, my beliefe can be represented by this:

I challange anyone to find table 1-4 in CAPM 39-1  ;D  Crap, guess cadets can't wear shoulder chords for special perpose activities anymore! (this is something I'm trying to use CAC to get fixed) Table 1-4 is refferanced twice... but unfortunatly it doesnt exist!  :o

Anyway, my decision has been made, simply on the fact that the man who knows all, can't pull this one off!  :clap:

I don't normally participate in uniform discussions, because they're generally pointless. But it is amazing that an otherwise intelligent person could cherry pick the NB minutes into supporting their personal opinion on uniform wear.

The Follow-On Action listed in the minutes required three distinct and separate actions to occur:
1) National Headquarters implementation of policy. 2) Notification to the field. 3) Change to appropriate CAP regulations.

None of these occurred.

The NB approved the items and defined the steps required for implementation. Again, it was the NB who defined these steps, not someone else spinning the topic to meet their own agenda.

Personally, I don't care one way or the other about the bling. I don't know how the Air Force feels about the bling. The simple fact is the actions defined by the NB never occurred. Why does the debate continue?

Quote from: Eclipse on August 06, 2011, 05:22:05 AM

Quote from: lordmonar on August 06, 2011, 04:28:09 AMWTF?  A narrow subset of people?  Like anyone the wing commander said could wear it?

No, like, as per 39-1, only members who participate in the special activity that awards it, and only during that activity.
The only regulatory document fully vetted and approved by the USAF is 39-1, everything else was done by CAP with no apparent input or consultation of anyone at the USAF. 

Read that table again.

The wing commander may authorise it for "special purpose wear".  It also says berets provided at special activities can only be worn at those activities.   The USAF has already authorised us to wear the beret.  They have already said that wing commanders can authorise it for "special purpose wear".  Ergo the NB expanding on that does not IMHO need USAF approval.  Like I said we don't need to ask their permission to change the regulation.

This is differen then the Boonie Hat issue....as the USAF has NOT authorised the boon hat at all.

The boonie hat is authorized for the blue BDU, right? Would the beret likewise also be authorized for the blue BDU since it is not a USAF uniform?

Just as a hypothetical, if the NB put out a policy requiring every member have first aid training and included similar follow-on actions that likewise are never followed by NHQ, etc. Would we be saying the mandate was not policy?

In other words, does NHQ have such a pocket veto power against NB actions?

Look, the argument that 39-1 did not get updated is bunk. It has not been updated since 2005 for anything. Even then it was a worthless "update".

Some argue it needed to come out in an ICL, then those of us who are barricks lawyers argue an ICL is worthless....

NBB will continue to tell cadets that earn the beret they can wear it. I will continue to tell cadets in my wing they can wear it, and just because of this argument I will get mine out of the box of cap stuff and put it on.

Quote from: N Harmon on August 06, 2011, 04:49:27 PM
Would the beret likewise also be authorized for the blue BDU since it is not a USAF uniform?

The argument NHQ has made for years is that CAP controls their corporate uniforms, however recent history indicates that is not the case, so you tell me.

Quote from: N Harmon on August 06, 2011, 04:53:09 PM
Just as a hypothetical, if the NB put out a policy requiring every member have first aid training and included similar follow-on actions that likewise are never followed by NHQ, etc. Would we be saying the mandate was not policy?

Thank you for making my point, and I am glad to see we finally agree.

If NHQ put out a 1-sentence mandate that all members will have first aid training, but never follows-on with the definition of that training, the mandate is unenforceable, yes?  That could anything from First Responder to mom showing you how to put on a bandage.

Just as the 1-liner "authorizes" all HMRS gear in the same sentence as the berets, yet people keep ignoring that in this discussion.

Quote from: NCRblues on August 06, 2011, 05:01:27 PMjust because of this argument I will get mine out of the box of cap stuff and put it on.

Well, I guess you're gonna show me!

I'm not trying to SHOW you anything eclipse.

What i am trying to do, is show the cadets in my wing, that people don't hate them because they went to NBB. Because that's how you come across. You seem to hate NBB grads just because of the beret. I'm not saying its true, but that's the way you come across. Many cadets and SM's read this forum but do not post.

Many cadets get barrated by SM's (outside of that cadets chain of command btw) about wearing the beret, even though the local commander for those cadets told them they can wear it.

I'm not trying to show you anything, what i am trying to do is proudly represent an amazing NCSA and experience that gets (since i cant use the S word) pooped on for no good reason.

Nobody hates anyone because of an activity they attend.  It's all in the attitude when they get back, or how they respond when someone
tells them to do "x" and they say "no".

"Please make sure to wear an approved hat next meeting."

"No, they told me at NBB I can wear this whenever I want."

"Cite please." (A commander's authority to dictate UOD not withstanding)

And then we are where we are.

The reality is that this affects so few people that it rarely comes up in conversation, and the majority of members respect their commanders enough to comply, even if the justification is "because I said so...".  It's the ones who won't comply, and are likely disciplinary problems in other areas and using the NBB or HMRS stuff as a way to "show who's boss", that cause the issues in ranks and generate the visceral reactions and discussions about these things.  You could make the argument that those attitudes make them poor candidates for the activities to start with, but we all know of the aversion of most CAP commander's to say the word "no".

And in all this, NHQ chooses not to clarify things, which would take a single, directly-worded paragraph.

This has little to do with the activities themselves, and if that is what is happening locally to your people, that's not right, but that also doesn't change the academic argument about the way this was done, or whether it was within the NB's authority to do it.

I will further grant, though, that since this is essentially arguing opinion, we'll never come to a conclusion.   Others have made the same points, I just happen to fall into an intersection between boredom and bandwidth that means I engage it more, and up until recently I was in front of an activity where the issues came up every year.

Eclipse-
"It's all in the attitude..." to cite you exactly.  And you are correct.  I believe that you said that in 12 years you have been involved this has always been an issue.  To be honest, I don't doubt it.  However, I would be interested to understand how in your first 1-3 years, as a new member you were so involved that this was even an issue on your radar.  I have watched SM's and Cadets alike, that come into the program over the last ten years (which is when I started) that were so busy trying to get "things" taken care of so they could participate in missions or could promote in the program, like they are supposed to, that the Nat. CC could have been removed and they would have just been like, "New Nat. CC, noted, check", and went back to work.  This is truly an argument that should be handled by command and only discussed/argued about here.  Your attitude towards this topic would be interpreted as hostile by newbies, and I think that you do yourself a disservice by coming off that way.  You have made your point very clear, as have many others.  I hope that some day, that we don't have to have this argument, as it becomes ever tiring.  I would rather argue about something that could save a life (since that is what I do, every day), but it might cause the organization to self destruct if we changed (or attempted to change) something that could someday save a life or prevent the need to have to save the life in the first place. 

All of that being said...  I hope that this issue is resolved when the 39-1 is re-released as a Regulation (hopefully soon).  I wont get my hopes up too high, but a little positive thought wont hurt. 

I am a Blue Beret, and very proud of the mission that we accomplish in a joint effort with the EAA Volunteers, the FAA, and on occasion the NTSB and USAF (as demonstrated this year and last).  I wear my beret proudly, and remove it when the occasion calls for it.  And truly, I would expect nothing less from my fellow berets.  It is a choice however, and some choose poorly.

To each their own, and we shall see what happens.

You know....we get that same attitude form HMRS, PJOC, HGA, ground teams, encampment, color guard, NCC, CAC, just being a C/NCO or C/Officer.

Attitudes I can handle.

"take off the beret"
"But they told me I could wear it"
"Well I say you can't and I'm your commander"
"No"
"Here's your 2b....have a nice day"

Like I said before.....if you want your cadets to take off their beret....good on you.  Just leave me and mine alone.

/\
+1

I also agree on this, but if the above actually "worked", we probably wouldn't be having these discussions.

I've had more than a few discussions with Phase 3 & 4 cadets in this regard, and we all know where and how those can go.

Quote from: Eclipse on August 06, 2011, 07:01:12 PM
I also agree on this, but if the above actually "worked", we probably wouldn't be having these discussions.

I've had more than a few discussions with Phase 3 & 4 cadets in this regard, and we all know where and how those can go.

It works in my squadron.

BTW we allow the beret.

Same and Same.

Granted, however I would say this is more prevalent an issue in regards to encampments and larger exercises where you
have a more diverse group who aren't all on the same page.

People are going to be more inclined to toe-the-line with people they see every week then strangers they think "don't matter".

I have a question:
I plan on going to Blue Beret next year, for the experience, with the Beret as the secondary reason for going. However, it is still looks really cool to me, and I would enjoy owning one for wearing occasionally. How do you earn the Beret at NBB? Is it given to you, or is there a set amount of tasks that you must complete?

Eagle,

The beret should never be your reason for attending this activity.  The mission is the most important part at NBB.  However, to answer your question, the awarding of both the Blue Beret and St. Albans Cross is at the discretion of the Command Staff.  This includes the Director, Assistant Director, Cadet Commander, and some other senior staff members.

It could be given out day 1, or you might not get it till the last day.  You could potentially not receive them at all if you don't earn them.

Medic-

Thank you. The reason I want the Beret is just to add it to my collection, and to wear it for special occasions. My primary reason is the experience that I'll get. I greatly enjoy the different topics that NBB covers, like the ES practice I'll get, and the chance to work with older planes.

Quote from: MICT1362 on August 06, 2011, 10:47:12 PM
Eagle,

The beret should never be your reason for attending this activity.  The mission is the most important part at NBB.  However, to answer your question, the awarding of both the Blue Beret and St. Albans Cross is at the discretion of the Command Staff.  This includes the Director, Assistant Director, Cadet Commander, and some other senior staff members.

It could be given out day 1, or you might not get it till the last day.  You could potentially not receive them at all if you don't earn them.

Medic-

Then why do the give them out?

The whole purpose of the Blue Beret at NBB is a reward for doing a good job at NBB. 

I know what you mean.....we should be teaching our cadets (and SMs) that doing a job well should be its own reward......but the whole concept of bling (or any other reward) is to encourage people to do those jobs in the first place.

Eagle,

It isn't ES practice...  This activity is a functional mission, and can be one of the most difficult situations that a UDF team could ever face.  Literally looking for the proverbial needle in the hay stack. 

Medic-

Thank you sir.

lordmonar,

To my knowledge, it has never not been given out.  However, we have taken them away from specific individuals for their actions that are against what we do. 

If you give it everything that you've got, then you will earn your beret.  Show up, be lazy, be insubordinate, and just generally don't care... probably don't deserve it. 

I think maybe you misunderstood what I was getting at.  If on the first operational day, the entire activity rocks out every single assignment, there are no issues, and there is literally nothing to complain about, then everybody may get berets after Ops Day 1.  But on the other hand, it may take everybody an entire week to figure it out....

Medic-

Quote from: EMT-83 on August 06, 2011, 01:54:21 PM
I don't normally participate in uniform discussions, because they're generally pointless. But it is amazing that an otherwise intelligent person could cherry pick the NB minutes into supporting their personal opinion on uniform wear.

The Follow-On Action listed in the minutes required three distinct and separate actions to occur:
1) National Headquarters implementation of policy. 2) Notification to the field. 3) Change to appropriate CAP regulations.

None of these occurred.

The NB approved the items and defined the steps required for implementation. Again, it was the NB who defined these steps, not someone else spinning the topic to meet their own agenda.

Personally, I don't care one way or the other about the bling. I don't know how the Air Force feels about the bling. The simple fact is the actions defined by the NB never occurred. Why does the debate continue?

Everyone is ignoring him. Why?

Quote from: lordmonar on August 06, 2011, 10:58:57 PM

Quote from: MICT1362 on August 06, 2011, 10:47:12 PM
Eagle,

The beret should never be your reason for attending this activity.  The mission is the most important part at NBB.  However, to answer your question, the awarding of both the Blue Beret and St. Albans Cross is at the discretion of the Command Staff.  This includes the Director, Assistant Director, Cadet Commander, and some other senior staff members.

It could be given out day 1, or you might not get it till the last day.  You could potentially not receive them at all if you don't earn them.

Medic-

Then why do the give them out?

The whole purpose of the Blue Beret at NBB is a reward for doing a good job at NBB. 

I know what you mean.....we should be teaching our cadets (and SMs) that doing a job well should be its own reward......but the whole concept of bling (or any other reward) is to encourage people to do those jobs in the first place.

This year, NHQ made NBB come up with a checklist that must be completed in order to earn the beret. Complete all the ics classes for ES, actively participate in the mission at NBB, be a team player and so forth and so on.

This year a cadet did not earn his beret, the first i can remember. This cadet refused to do the ICS courses and was constantly at the medics office complaining of everything from being tired to wooping cough. It was decided by command staff that the cadet did not complete 80% of the activity and did not qualify to earn the beret.

The beret and pin are handed out at different times. On top of the director and assistant director, the chief TAC, flight TAC, ES section chief, and cadet flight commander are asked to give a thumbs up or down on the whole flight earning berets and or pins. If we have a single thumbs down, they wait. Sometimes its very fast that a flight pulls together and sometimes its the last day.

This year, on top of our normal function of aircraft marshalling on 9-27, es, warbirds and ultralights, we were tasked with establishing and maintain a cordon for the f-16 accident scene. The adjutant general of Alabama (that's where the 16 was from) personally called the command staff and thanked CAP for the PROFESSIONAL response. The general also wants to give the flights that responded a Alabama state guard award. That is currently in talks between NHQ and Alabama TAG.

Beret is more to me than just a hat. Our cadets are seen by every pilot who lands 9-27. Our cadets are seen performing ES in front of almost 100k visitors a day to the airshow. We located more overdue's and ELTs on the airfield alone than ALL of CAP combined for last year. Our cadets served as honor guard for the "honor flight Oshkosh" and the C.N.O personally thanked the 2 flights that worked it. Our cadets were personally asked for by Dick Rutan to establish a cordon for his experimental aircraft. For the first time in NBB history a whole flight got to go up in the worlds busiest control tower (while the airshow was going on) to see operations in the tower. (this is unheard of at Oshkosh, and we think a first for ANYONE to volunteer or attend the airshow)

Beret is much more than attending an airshow with a little ES thrown in. It is the largest AF mission that CAP Carry's out year after year. We may not make the EAA newspapers, but at our banquet, Garry the head EAA flight line chairman was in tears because of the amount of work the cadets and SM's do for them. He flat out said " without cap, general aviation fly in could not happen, we simply do not have enough people".

Year after year i am amazed that 200 teenagers from around the nation can come together and complete the missions we ask them to. People who have never spoken to each other before handle THOUSANDS of aircraft and hold THOUSANDS of lives in their hands everyday for 2 weeks. It amazes me, and simply brings me to tears. If i could, I would go back every year, because the mission and the cadets deserve SM's who care, and are dedicated, and can get past poorly written regs or worthless hats....

I AM A BLUE BERET, FOLLOW ME.

I think you both missed my point.

MICT1362 said

QuoteThe beret should never be your reason for attending this activity.

I was pointing out that he was wrong.

We (the leaders and planners) use the carrot of the beret to get come out and do the job.  We use the tool of the beret to instill pride in our selves, our accomplishments and our mission.

By saying "the beret should never be your reason for attending" blunts the tools we have developed to make this and other missions so effective.

I am not implying that they "just hand them out".....not for minute.  I have never been to NBB but I know several who have and I have worked enough airshows myself to know they are a lot of work and if the beret is enough to get people TO PAY for the pleasure of working the buttocks off for two weeks.......then I am all for it.

I hope to be able to get the time off next year to go to NBB....but I may be going the NCS this year....so I don't know.

Sorry, I just don't get it.

Every time this topic comes up and drags on for pages I have to ask myself what makes NBB so special that it requires its own distinctive headgear. I get it, the activity requires long hrs. so what, so do many other NCSAs and they seem to get by with a patch and a ribbon. What is it about NBB that requires their graduates to have a patch, ribbon and beret? Does that mean that activities that send their graduates home with a ribbon and patch are lesser activities? Are the graduates of other NCSAs lesser cadets, not as hard working or hard core as NBB graduates?

Like I said, I just don't get it

Well like anything....it has its traditions and you don't screw with them.

Does it "need" its own hat?  Nope.  But it's got one....so press on.
But the same is true with just about everything we do.  Do we need uniforms?  Nope...we can do the mission without those...but it helps.  Do we need rank?  Nope but it makes people feel good.  Do we need pretty red white and blue planes?  Nope.....Blaze Orange would make more sense and what ever is off the Cesnna floor that year would be cheaper.

So any argument that starts with "Why do you need....." is usally a no winner to start off.

We use the beret as a tool.....simple as that.  If it works you use it.....if starts getting in the way you put it away and get a new tool.

What I don't understand is why everyone hates the hat so much.

You don't like it...don't wear it.  You don't like others wearing it....get a command position and ban it.  You don't want anyone in CAP to ever wear it ever again including at NBB....bet on the NB and make a proposal to delete it from 39-1.

I just have to point this out to eclipse... 180 degrees sir... one hundred and eighty degrees.  ::)

"an eye for an eye" ;)

?

So yesterday I wore my beret to mission base at a SAREX (Yes I did not wear it in the field, though nothing says I can't, I still don't mainly because I don't want to get it dirty, and I don't want to stir another hornets nest on the whole 'beret in the field thing') And a Maj who runs a local GSAR walked by me and my buddy (also wearing his beret) and told us in a VERY sarcastic tone (I mean VERY VERY sarcastic) "Nice beret boys" Now, I know it doesnt sound like much, but I've known this guy for a while and he his much much like Eclipse it, infact I thought he was Eclipse for a while. But my buddy and I only laughed and carried on because he was wearing an un-approved GSAR baseball cap with metal major insignia on it...

While rank brings authority, the person brings hypocracy...   ??? 

Oh and I had many cadets tell me I couldn't wear it, I smiled, didn't say a word and kept walking (they obviously don't know our Wing CC is ok with them)  ::)

Just so Eclipse knows: Your words are steriotype... I will wear my beret proud to the worlds end, unless I'm told to take it off by the person incharge. Here is my plan, just an fyi:

-In my squadron I will wear it until my CC says no.

-At an encampment, I will wear it untill the encampment CC says no, but even then I will come home to my unit and continue wearing it.

-Some day maybe I will wear it to an activity that you are incharge of, you tell me not to wear it, I take it off. I come home to my unit and put it back on again.

-In all of these cases, if I'm wearing it, and someone higher ranking than I, but not in my chain tells me to take it off, I will do so, but as soon as I turn the corner, it goes back on my head, and I send word up my chain for confirmation...

All of my fellow berets I have worked with (except one out of 20) will do the same. 1 out of 20 will do what you keep explaining... He will say "but at beret they said I could so I'm not taking it off" and quite frankly I think that kid has a mental disability or something... so, 1 out of 20... if this is an accurate statistic, thats 5% of beret grads with that attitude.

But I don't blame you for this steriotype, and I don't think anyone really does. Because were all human and make the same mistakes. The negatives ALWAYS outweigh the posotives... its unfortunate but true. It works the same way with racism, or racist steriotypes. People see one person doing something wrong and they lable the other 99% of people as just as bad. Our CAP commanders always tell us to be on our best behavior in public because were representing CAP and the USAF. But what do they really mean:
'If we screw up and set a bad example, people will think all of CAP and all of th USAF are like that..." its just a simple fact of human nature.

So please reconsider your steriotype.  ;)

Quote from: Eclipse on August 07, 2011, 06:59:30 PM
?

I just noticed a few posters were labling you as agressive and hostile... sounds like something you did to me a couple months ago  ;)

Quote from: Zen Master Charlie on August 07, 2011, 07:30:52 PM
So yesterday I wore my beret to mission base at a SAREX (Yes I did not wear it in the field, though nothing says I can't, I still don't mainly because I don't want to get it dirty, and I don't want to stir another hornets nest on the whole 'beret in the field thing') And a Maj who runs a local GSAR walked by me and my buddy (also wearing his beret) and told us in a VERY sarcastic tone (I mean VERY VERY sarcastic) "Nice beret boys" Now, I know it doesnt sound like much, but I've known this guy for a while and he his much much like Eclipse it, infact I thought he was Eclipse for a while. But my buddy and I only laughed and carried on because he was wearing an un-approved GSAR baseball cap with metal major insignia on it...

While rank brings authority, the person brings hypocracy...   ??? 

Oh and I had many cadets tell me I couldn't wear it, I smiled, didn't say a word and kept walking (they obviously don't know our Wing CC is ok with them)  ::)

Just so Eclipse knows: Your words are steriotype... I will wear my beret proud to the worlds end, unless I'm told to take it off by the person incharge. Here is my plan, just an fyi:

-In my squadron I will wear it until my CC says no.

-At an encampment, I will wear it untill the encampment CC says no, but even then I will come home to my unit and continue wearing it.

-Some day maybe I will wear it to an activity that you are incharge of, you tell me not to wear it, I take it off. I come home to my unit and put it back on again.

-In all of these cases, if I'm wearing it, and someone higher ranking than I, but not in my chain tells me to take it off, I will do so, but as soon as I turn the corner, it goes back on my head, and I send word up my chain for confirmation...

All of my fellow berets I have worked with (except one out of 20) will do the same. 1 out of 20 will do what you keep explaining... He will say "but at beret they said I could so I'm not taking it off" and quite frankly I think that kid has a mental disability or something... so, 1 out of 20... if this is an accurate statistic, thats 5% of beret grads with that attitude.

But I don't blame you for this steriotype, and I don't think anyone really does. Because were all human and make the same mistakes. The negatives ALWAYS outweigh the posotives... its unfortunate but true. It works the same way with racism, or racist steriotypes. People see one person doing something wrong and they lable the other 99% of people as just as bad. Our CAP commanders always tell us to be on our best behavior in public because were representing CAP and the USAF. But what do they really mean:
'If we screw up and set a bad example, people will think all of CAP and all of th USAF are like that..." its just a simple fact of human nature.

So please reconsider your steriotype.  ;)

You would figure that an 18 year old Earhart Award receiptant would know enough to spellcheck before they post.
I guess not...

Quote from: Zen Master Charlie on August 07, 2011, 07:30:52 PM
So yesterday I wore my beret to mission base at a SAREX (Yes I did not wear it in the field, though nothing says I can't, I still don't mainly because I don't want to get it dirty, and I don't want to stir another hornets nest on the whole 'beret in the field thing') And a Maj who runs a local GSAR walked by me and my buddy (also wearing his beret) and told us in a VERY sarcastic tone (I mean VERY VERY sarcastic) "Nice beret boys" Now, I know it doesnt sound like much, but I've known this guy for a while and he his much much like Eclipse it, infact I thought he was Eclipse for a while. But my buddy and I only laughed and carried on because he was wearing an un-approved GSAR baseball cap with metal major insignia on it...

While rank brings authority, the person brings hypocracy...   ??? 

Oh and I had many cadets tell me I couldn't wear it, I smiled, didn't say a word and kept walking (they obviously don't know our Wing CC is ok with them)  ::)

Just so Eclipse knows: Your words are steriotype... I will wear my beret proud to the worlds end, unless I'm told to take it off by the person incharge. Here is my plan, just an fyi:

-In my squadron I will wear it until my CC says no.

-At an encampment, I will wear it untill the encampment CC says no, but even then I will come home to my unit and continue wearing it.

-Some day maybe I will wear it to an activity that you are incharge of, you tell me not to wear it, I take it off. I come home to my unit and put it back on again.

-In all of these cases, if I'm wearing it, and someone higher ranking than I, but not in my chain tells me to take it off, I will do so, but as soon as I turn the corner, it goes back on my head, and I send word up my chain for confirmation...

All of my fellow berets I have worked with (except one out of 20) will do the same. 1 out of 20 will do what you keep explaining... He will say "but at beret they said I could so I'm not taking it off" and quite frankly I think that kid has a mental disability or something... so, 1 out of 20... if this is an accurate statistic, thats 5% of beret grads with that attitude.

But I don't blame you for this steriotype, and I don't think anyone really does. Because were all human and make the same mistakes. The negatives ALWAYS outweigh the posotives... its unfortunate but true. It works the same way with racism, or racist steriotypes. People see one person doing something wrong and they lable the other 99% of people as just as bad. Our CAP commanders always tell us to be on our best behavior in public because were representing CAP and the USAF. But what do they really mean:
'If we screw up and set a bad example, people will think all of CAP and all of th USAF are like that..." its just a simple fact of human nature.

So please reconsider your steriotype.  ;)

You are a prime example of the arrogance he was talking about. You don't do something knowing it's controversial without seeking approval first. If there is a chance someone in authority that you have to listen do will say no you don't do that thing until you know for sure what the answer is.

Quote from: Zen Master Charlie on August 07, 2011, 07:30:52 PM
-In all of these cases, if I'm wearing it, and someone higher ranking than I, but not in my chain tells me to take it off, I will do so, but as soon as I turn the corner, it goes back on my head, and I send word up my chain for confirmation...

Not a very good example to set for your peers and subordinates.  Do that for real and it won't be long before they're doing the same to you...

As a leadership exercise, you might want to consider WHY the cadet program starts teaching leadership by teaching how to be a good follower.

Two things - don't question any senior member giving you instructions or an order. Just follow it. Get off this "chain of command" nonsense. You're a cadet and cadets don't get into needless arguments with senior members. Second - a question if I may - are your learning anything at all from from the responses from senior members on CAP talk? Is it just possible that your attitude needs an adjustment? Just asking. On a positive note I commend you for earning that Earhart - way to go!

Quote from: Zen Master Charlie on August 07, 2011, 07:30:52 PM
So yesterday I wore my beret to mission base at a SAREX (Yes I did not wear it in the field, though nothing says I can't, I still don't mainly because I don't want to get it dirty, and I don't want to stir another hornets nest on the whole 'beret in the field thing') And a Maj who runs a local GSAR walked by me and my buddy (also wearing his beret) and told us in a VERY sarcastic tone (I mean VERY VERY sarcastic) "Nice beret boys" Now, I know it doesnt sound like much, but I've known this guy for a while and he his much much like Eclipse it, infact I thought he was Eclipse for a while. But my buddy and I only laughed and carried on because he was wearing an un-approved GSAR baseball cap with metal major insignia on it...

While rank brings authority, the person brings hypocracy...   ??? 

Oh and I had many cadets tell me I couldn't wear it, I smiled, didn't say a word and kept walking (they obviously don't know our Wing CC is ok with them)  ::)

Just so Eclipse knows: Your words are steriotype... I will wear my beret proud to the worlds end, unless I'm told to take it off by the person incharge. Here is my plan, just an fyi:

-In my squadron I will wear it until my CC says no.

-At an encampment, I will wear it untill the encampment CC says no, but even then I will come home to my unit and continue wearing it.

-Some day maybe I will wear it to an activity that you are incharge of, you tell me not to wear it, I take it off. I come home to my unit and put it back on again.

-In all of these cases, if I'm wearing it, and someone higher ranking than I, but not in my chain tells me to take it off, I will do so, but as soon as I turn the corner, it goes back on my head, and I send word up my chain for confirmation...

All of my fellow berets I have worked with (except one out of 20) will do the same. 1 out of 20 will do what you keep explaining... He will say "but at beret they said I could so I'm not taking it off" and quite frankly I think that kid has a mental disability or something... so, 1 out of 20... if this is an accurate statistic, thats 5% of beret grads with that attitude.

But I don't blame you for this steriotype, and I don't think anyone really does. Because were all human and make the same mistakes. The negatives ALWAYS outweigh the posotives... its unfortunate but true. It works the same way with racism, or racist steriotypes. People see one person doing something wrong and they lable the other 99% of people as just as bad. Our CAP commanders always tell us to be on our best behavior in public because were representing CAP and the USAF. But what do they really mean:
'If we screw up and set a bad example, people will think all of CAP and all of th USAF are like that..." its just a simple fact of human nature.

So please reconsider your steriotype.  ;)

Dude, seriously, what is your problem? Do you have a job? Does it require you to show up someplace and to follow a dress code? Did you read the Leadership 2000 book? Do you have any idea how the real world works?

Congrats, you're a Cadet Captain. Mature and man up, and stop giving lip to people who are trying to help you grow and mature. Also, spell check takes about thirty seconds. Invest in it.

I've sent him two PMs regarding his apparent writing skills, and both have been ignored.

As a person who has attended NBB and has the beret hanging on my "I love me" wall at home, I cannot stop banging my head on my desk after reading some of the arguments pro-beret people are making.

There is no reason, in my mind, that the beret is a necessary "carrot" for the activity. As a cadet, I eagerly accepted ANY opportunity to participate in an active mission. From most of them, my only souvenir are pictures. A hat isn't necessary to make a cadet want to do something like NBB, especially since the work that cadets do at the activity is pretty important. I'm not sure what the staffing situation is like for the airshow people, but I do know that marshaling aircraft can be dangerous work during the chaos for both cadets and seniors. If the hats are really necessary to convince cadets to go work one of the biggest airshows in the world in positions that actually MATTER, then that's an advertising problem on NBB's part, not a reason that berets are necessary.

Quote from: Zen Master CharlieSo yesterday I wore my beret to mission base at a SAREX (Yes I did not wear it in the field, though nothing says I can't, I still don't mainly because I don't want to get it dirty, and I don't want to stir another hornets nest on the whole 'beret in the field thing') And a Maj who runs a local GSAR walked by me and my buddy (also wearing his beret) and told us in a VERY sarcastic tone (I mean VERY VERY sarcastic) "Nice beret boys" Now, I know it doesnt sound like much, but I've known this guy for a while and he his much much like Eclipse it, infact I thought he was Eclipse for a while. But my buddy and I only laughed and carried on because he was wearing an un-approved GSAR baseball cap with metal major insignia on it...

While rank brings authority, the person brings hypocracy...   ???

It's a logical fallacy to assume that hypocrisy means that a person's argument is wrong. Just because he looks silly wearing a GSAR hat doesn't keep you from also looking silly wearing a ceremonial hat during a SAREX.

Quote from: Zen Master CharlieOh and I had many cadets tell me I couldn't wear it, I smiled, didn't say a word and kept walking (they obviously don't know our Wing CC is ok with them)  ::)

Hopefully that's in writing somewhere.

Quote from: Zen Master CharlieJust so Eclipse knows: Your words are steriotype... I will wear my beret proud to the worlds end, unless I'm told to take it off by the person incharge.

You need new priorities.

Quote from: Zen Master Charlie-In my squadron I will wear it until my CC says no.

Or you could not wear it until your CC says yes, which is generally how things are supposed to work. Lest I show up in purple boots because no one's told me not to yet.

Quote from: Zen Master Charlie-In all of these cases, if I'm wearing it, and someone higher ranking than I, but not in my chain tells me to take it off, I will do so, but as soon as I turn the corner, it goes back on my head, and I send word up my chain for confirmation...

Actually, if someone of higher rank gives you an order, they don't need to be in your chain for you to need to obey that order. They can't order you away from a mission that your chain has sent down, but since this is a non-mission related order, and is instead just an order from someone who outranks you, you are still bound to abide by that order until otherwise confirmed. So instead, you would leave the beret OFF until confirmation from your commander.

I would expect a C/Capt to know this. I certainly did when I was a C/Capt.

Quote from: Zen Master CharlieAll of my fellow berets I have worked with (except one out of 20) will do the same. 1 out of 20 will do what you keep explaining... He will say "but at beret they said I could so I'm not taking it off" and quite frankly I think that kid has a mental disability or something... so, 1 out of 20... if this is an accurate statistic, thats 5% of beret grads with that attitude.

I assume that you're not friends with a bunch of hats. But as someone who also attended NBB and has the blue beret, I suppose I'm not one of the "normal" graduates who chooses to disobey orders because of overinflated pride in a piece of felt.

Quote from: Zen Master CharlieBut I don't blame you for this steriotype, and I don't think anyone really does. Because were all human and make the same mistakes. The negatives ALWAYS outweigh the posotives... its unfortunate but true. It works the same way with racism, or racist steriotypes. People see one person doing something wrong and they lable the other 99% of people as just as bad. Our CAP commanders always tell us to be on our best behavior in public because were representing CAP and the USAF. But what do they really mean:
'If we screw up and set a bad example, people will think all of CAP and all of th USAF are like that..." its just a simple fact of human nature.

So please reconsider your steriotype.  ;)

Dude, you are the "steriotype". In fact, because I don't know you well, I am inclined to think that your entire post is a joke designed to emulate exactly the sort of arrogance that creates the stereotype.