Leadership Training

[FARRIER]

The premise of this thread is what kinds of leadership training members have received. It can be through the military, through college, or though their employer. DO NOT LIST WHAT WAS TAUGHT THROUGH CAP. We can see what members are bringing into the organization.

[lordmonar]

Boy Scouts:
- Eagle Scout
- Junior Leader Training
- National Junior Leader Instructor Course
- National Camp School
- Order of the Arrow Regional Officers Training Seminar
- Scout Leader Basic Training Parts I & II
- Wood badge

USAF
- Student Leader's Course
- NCO Prep School
- NCO Academy
- numerous Professional Development Course under different names
- Senior NCO Academy
- AFJROTC 1 year
- AFROTC 1 year

Military related
- Pershing Rifles
- Arnold Air Society
- NCOA leadership seminar
- AFCEA Professional Development Seminars

Civilian
- Toast Masters

[FARRIER]

• - Airport Planning Internship/Project Management (Alot of OJT)
• Taught Dispatcher Resource Management (Offshoot of Crew Resource  Management) when I worked for the airlines.

[SAR-EMT1]

 High School:
Student Council
Church Groups etc...

Boy Scouts:
- Every hat at some point
  Star Scout
  OA Instructor (even though I was never in the brotherhood)


ES: ICS through 800
      EMS National Registry
      Hazmat
      Fire
      Many Courses on resource managment etc...

AFROTC
2 years as a cadet
Rising Sophmore Program
Various PT awards, Honor Flight  etc
  2 semesters AAS Candidate - never made it in as class ae real grades, interfered with my attending the Field Problem both years.

CG Aux
Flotilla Staff
Division Staff
Instructor
Marine Dealer Visitor
EMT
Crew
etc...

[FARRIER]

Thank you Pat Harris and C. Edgar:

Maybe I should explain further the idea of the (straw) poll. It has been brought up here that "beefing" up of training for members was in dire need, many ideas being put forth. This does bring up one question. Before the Unit Commanders Course and TLC, people joined with various levels of leadership training already. Some received it from the military, some with no military experience whatsoever. But, both have excelled in CAP to corporate levels, having received the old training. So, what are we as individuals bringing to the organization in the form of leadership training. Is it their employers in-house program, for those that went to college, were they lucky to get a decent internship, or like Pat Harris (in addition to his military background) attended Toast Masters? Just trying to see what we contribute.

[lordmonar]

Brian,

You should also not discount simple experience.  There are a lot of guys out there who have a lot of leadership training but have never once taken a formal course, management class, or professional development seminar.  They learned in the school of hard knocks.

NOW that is what is really hard to quantify.

[Dragoon]

The other issue is that much "leadership training" is primarily academic, rather than hands-on.  And while spitting back Maslow's Heirarchy and quoting "Profiles in Courage" are great things, they don't necessarily turn you in to Robert E. Lee.  They may help, but we can't all put into practice all the things we learn.

I actually look more towards the leadership experience part.  "Doing it" certainly taught me more than "studying it."

"What have you led outside of CAP, and what did those organizations accomplish?" is a question worth asking new folks.

[ELTHunter]

B.S. Degree in Management

15+ years experience in managing, leading and supervising both professional & Craft people.

Numerous management & leadership courses through my employers.

18+ years learning from both good and bad managers/leaders.

IMO, leadership can't be taught.  Some of it can be learned by experience, some may come naturally.  Most of the time, a mix of all three.  I have probably learned more about leadership over the years from watching bad leaders than from books, classes or any training I have received.

[FARRIER]

The other issue is that much "leadership training" is primarily academic, rather than hands-on.  And while spitting back Maslow's Heirarchy and quoting "Profiles in Courage" are great things, they don't necessarily turn you in to Robert E. Lee.  They may help, but we can't all put into practice all the things we learn.

I actually look more towards the leadership experience part.  "Doing it" certainly taught me more than "studying it."

"What have you led outside of CAP, and what did those organizations accomplish?" is a question worth asking new folks.

That is why posted through "through a persons employer". Your better, and mostly larger, employers will develop an internal program that they use when promoting people into a leadership role. They make sure that they get some formal training to coincide with the "doing it". The corporation that owns the Chili's restaurant chain is one that I can think of off the top my head. 

[bosshawk]

Interesting that you should bring up this subject: happens to be one of my pet peeves about people in CAP who move into "leadership" positions without one whit of background nor training.

Just a few of the things in my background:

3 years of military school in Jr High.

4 years of Army ROTC: squad leader, platoon guide, Bn ExO, Bn Commander.  Distinguished Military Graduate.

Company Commander three times in the Army.

Basic Officers Course
Military Intelligence Officers Advanced Course
Command and General Staff Course
Air War College
Counterinsurgency Operations Course
Aerial Surveillance Officers Course

Assigned as Director of Plans, Army Intelligence, Department of the Army.

More management and leadership courses at the Central Intelligence Agency than I can remember.

Operations Director of a major Air Force satellite program-on loan from CIA

Civilian:
President of Home Owners Association
President of the OV-1 Mohawk Association
Member of the Board, Flying Doctors

Probably have forgotten a few.

Cheers.

[lordmonar]

IMO, leadership can't be taught.  Some of it can be learned by experience, some may come naturally.  Most of the time, a mix of all three.  I have probably learned more about leadership over the years from watching bad leaders than from books, classes or any training I have received.

I disagree with you in a technical way.  You most certainly can "teach" leadership....you just can't teach it simply from a book or in a lecture.  As you pointed out experience is a major way of teaching leadership....it's called mentoring.  That is you give the student both the book learning and the OJT.

You can learn leadership either by experience or by the book....but the best leaders are those that have both the experience and the academic knowledge.

[Flying Pig]

I agree you can teach someone the do's and dont's and proven techniques.  But I definitely think peoples natural dispositions are really the key.  You can surely be taught the foundation and leadership styles.  Otherwise anyone who attended the class would be a Patton.  In the civilian world especially, Ive noticed that people frame their certificate, and now think they are "leaders" because of the placard on their desk.  It takes time for people to recognize you as the "leader" vs the "manager".
Competence in your the position you are leading from goes without saying.    I had a supervisor who always referred to himself as "the units leadership".......   

Ummmmm no, we all hate you and your an idiot.   Your the units MANAGER....not its LEADERSHIP.  That guy over there in the corner is our leader...we just tolerate you!   Of couse, he had the certificate that had the word "leadership" on it

Not to change the thread's intention, but I am a big fan of John Maxwell's books.  They have a Christian theme, since he is a pastor, but he is one of the top selling authors and speakers on leadership techniques.  What makes his stuff applicable to CAP, is that a lot of his style, techniques and experience is in leading volunteer organizations, ie. churches.

My all time favorite.....

"Good judgement comes from experience and experience, well, that comes from bad judgement."

May not be 100% accurate, but I like the idea.

[Hawk200]

My all time favorite.....

"Good judgement comes from experience and experience, well, that comes from bad judgement."

May not be 100% accurate, but I like the idea.

So that's why I have so much "experience"! 

[lordmonar]

I agree you can teach someone the do's and dont's and proven techniques.  But I definitely think peoples natural dispositions are really the key. 

This is the old leaders are born not made argument.  I disagree.  Anyone can be taught to lead...just like anyone can be taught to play the piano.  Some take to it easer, some no so much and once in a while you get a genius with the natural talent that makes him a super star.  But leadership is simply a skill.

You can surely be taught the foundation and leadership styles.  Otherwise anyone who attended the class would be a Patton.

You are over simplifying.

[SAR-EMT1]

What I hate are the civilians that feel that -attending a seminar and getting a piece of paper that says "manager" or  "leader" or "has passed Leadership 101" etc ... - means they are fit to rule all.

Managing vs leading is fairly easy for us, for common folk the line of demarcation is very bad.

A piece of paper doesnt mean a thing, unless you can back it up with experience or knowledge. The paper itself doesnt give you knowledge or anything... guh.

Nothing Ive said is new. ...

[ELTHunter]

What I hate are the civilians that feel that -attending a seminar and getting a piece of paper that says "manager" or  "leader" or "has passed Leadership 101" etc ... - means they are fit to rule all.

What I hate is someone with virtually no management or leadership experience at all taking a CAP leadership course (using material from the 1980's no less) and coming back to the unit thinking they are Curtis LeMay and Were're all in SAC.

[SAR-EMT1]

What I hate are the civilians that feel that -attending a seminar and getting a piece of paper that says "manager" or  "leader" or "has passed Leadership 101" etc ... - means they are fit to rule all.

What I hate is someone with virtually no management or leadership experience at all taking a CAP leadership course (using material from the 1980's no less) and coming back to the unit thinking they are Curtis LeMay and Were're all in SAC.

With all the parinoid thought and security of the good old days, was CAP even allowed near SAC bases?

[FARRIER]

What I hate are the civilians that feel that -attending a seminar and getting a piece of paper that says "manager" or  "leader" or "has passed Leadership 101" etc ... - means they are fit to rule all.

Managing vs leading is fairly easy for us, for common folk the line of demarcation is very bad.

A piece of paper doesn't mean a thing, unless you can back it up with experience or knowledge. The paper itself doesnt give you knowledge or anything... guh.

Nothing Ive said is new. ...

I've also had bosses who had 8 + years of military time under their belt and they were like Flying Pigs "idiot". I didn't start this thread to start a military beats civilian training.

Early 90's I was on Wing Staff. The Wing Commander was a retired AF Col. The Vice Commander was a senior airline pilot (was not a military pilot). Both had different styles, both successful.

Based on the fact that there have been members with leadership training and experience from either or both the civilian/military side that have came into the organization and have excelled, what are we bringing to the organization?

[mikeylikey]

The premise of this thread is what kinds of leadership training members have received. It can be through the military, through college, or though their employer. DO NOT LIST WHAT WAS TAUGHT THROUGH CAP. We can see what members are bringing into the organization.

I have allways enjoyed STAFF RIDES.  Take the Staff out for a day trip to a historical attraction (I prefer military attractions) and have them do reasearch before hand on the subject and make a short presentation to the group.  Finish it up with Pizza and Beer SODA. 

[jimmydeanno]

What I hate is someone with virtually no management or leadership experience at all taking a CAP leadership course (using material from the 1980's no less) and coming back to the unit thinking they are Curtis LeMay and Were're all in SAC.

I beg to differ, just go and check http://www.capnhq.af.mil and that will show you...sheesh, you don't even know where to get the correct information! 

[SarDragon]

Bad link.

[FARRIER]

Pat Harris, C. Edgar, Dragoon, ELTHunter, Paul Reed, Robert Steht, Hawk200, mikeylikey, jimmydeanno, David Bowles:

Again, thank you 

[jimmydeanno]

Bad link.

That was the point...if I remember correctly, that is the "CAP National Wepage" according to the materials provided by AFIADL Course 13...

Review Question 1:

CAPs national website is...

A)http://www.cap.af.mil
B)http://www.capnhq.af.mil
C)http://www.capnhq.com
D)http://www.cap.maxwell.af.mil

(not exact quote)

all of course are incorrect and have been for 10 years...