Rewarding AF recruiters for recruiting CAP members

[RiverAux]

From what I can tell it is fairly common for local CAP units to provide flyers and brochures to their local Air Force recruiter in hopes of snagging the occassional person who is unable to enlist in the AF or possibly getting a youth to join CAP for a while before going into the AF.  These seem to be fairly informal arrangements and are heavily dependent on the recruiter to take the time to talk about CAP when appropriate. 

Do you think it would be appropriate for the AF to provide some sort of incentives to their recruiters to help enlist CAP members?  I'm not sure what they get for signing up AF recruits, but perhaps they could be given partial credit towards their quotas for signing up CAP members. 

The only real drawback to this idea that I can see is that it would be open to potential abuse by the recruiter.  If they wanted to be bad guys, it wouldn't cost them much money if they paid for the membership for a few CAP people just in order to bump up their totals. 

Thoughts?

[Chris Jacobs]

I think the idea has a lot of potentail.  I wish we worked more heavily with the recruiters across the board.  The couple of times that i have worked with an Air Force recruiter they were happy to have me around inspiring the youth.

[Eclipse]

We have a few recruiter in our area that send us members on occasion - we've cultivated the relationships
their way, so they know about our local operations.

Unless they made some kind of USAF squadron, or went direct to NHQ holding, recruiters couldn't just sign people up because an app needs a unit CC sig.

Regardless, I can't imagine a recruiter throwing around $35 to $65 dollars just to boost CAP numbers.

If I get a recruiter who is sending people our way, a unit patch or coin should suffice as a thank you...

[Monty]

From what I can tell it is fairly common for local CAP units to provide flyers and brochures to their local Air Force recruiter in hopes of snagging the occassional person who is unable to enlist in the AF or possibly getting a youth to join CAP for a while before going into the AF.  These seem to be fairly informal arrangements and are heavily dependent on the recruiter to take the time to talk about CAP when appropriate. 

Do you think it would be appropriate for the AF to provide some sort of incentives to their recruiters to help enlist CAP members?  I'm not sure what they get for signing up AF recruits, but perhaps they could be given partial credit towards their quotas for signing up CAP members. 

The only real drawback to this idea that I can see is that it would be open to potential abuse by the recruiter.  If they wanted to be bad guys, it wouldn't cost them much money if they paid for the membership for a few CAP people just in order to bump up their totals. 

Thoughts?

I "dragged the bag" for three years with Air Force Recruiting Service (AFRS), recruiting both enlisted and officer personnel.  SO.....perhaps I can shed a little light from an insider's perspective.

(Mandatory Disclaimer: Upfront, I'm going to fess up now...we in AFRS were resigned to the fact that no matter what truths we could share from our insider's perspective, "Uncle Bucky" and "Grandpa Jones" from "dubya dubya two" always knew how we really did things, despite the facts of the matter so...I expect many to simply dismiss anything I relay.  Conspiracy theories are always much more fun than fact!)

With that said...

#1 - There are no "quotas" in AFRS.  We do have goals, just like a pilot has minimum hours to maintain proficiency.  Other services may (and do!) have quotas but, I did not serve in other services and won't speculate (though I do know.)

#2 - Recruiters are not paid by the amount of folks they recruit and there are no added incentives for recruiting one sort of applicant over another.  Just as a pilot isn't rewarded financially for bombing 8 bridges vs. 7 bridges, Air Force recruiters don't get extra cha-ching for recruiting 5 members vs. 4 members.

#3 - Most recruiters work under extreme pressure from their supervisors and most recruiters won't lie...but also won't be very forthcoming unless asked.  Ethical dilemma?  Perhaps...but there is a distinct minority of folks that not only are VERY forthcoming, but also are quick to toss out potential applicants on their ear (I loved the faces of cocky young people when you tossed 'em out because, like any job interview, bad impressions suck for future employment.)

(Other questions and answers available upon request.)

With all that laid out up-front.....

I cannot speak for nationwide statistics, but from my experience, CAP tends to be a small - VERY small - contributor to the Air Force.  I understand that flies in the face of people who quote obscure, normally-unconfirmed rumors that CAP makes up a significant amount of USAFA attendees and BMTS airmen.  I would suggest - with NO ability to confirm this - that CAP's contribution to the Air Force is largely on par and, perhaps, behind that which may be contributed by the Boy Scouts of America.

CAP's cadet program generally compels cadets - when they become of age - to pursue aerospace interests (via civil aviation or, an end-goal after pursuing commissioning opportunities.)  During the course of my 3 years in AFRS, I recruited one - ONE - Billy Mitchell Award winner.  (Mind you, I was one of the recruiters that ACTIVELY worked with CAP, mostly on account that I was a "dual-hatted" USAF & CAP member.)

It's not very PC (and I could never say this when I was on active duty) but let's call a spade a spade; CAP is a great program for youth...but the majority of youth that would talk to a recruiter are the younger sorts that are fascinated by all things military.  Generally by age 17, young folks know they are in the "target zone" of approachability and through personal choice, guidance from whomever, and solidifying personal interests, eligible-aged young people aren't as receptive to recruiters (officer or enlisted) as one might suspect.

(Inside joke that we had in my AFRS flight was that the key chains, pencils, and folders were going to get passed on to the 8th graders and the desk calendars were going to their teachers.  Nothing was probably going to be that well-received by the people we might be able to enlist - the 18-27 year old demographic!)

I have no crystal ball, but I would speculate that not only will there NOT be any forthcoming incentive for AFRS to recruit CAP members, but there's really no method with which to "reward" a recruiter for signing one demographic up over another.

[RiverAux]

Unless they made some kind of USAF squadron, or went direct to NHQ holding, recruiters couldn't just sign people up because an app needs a unit CC sig.

Obviously that is the case and there would have to be some sort of tracking system so that you would know that the recruiter was the person that got the person in the door.  So "recruiting" CAP members might not be the right phrase. 

Air Force recruiters don't get extra cha-ching for recruiting 5 members vs. 4 members.

Stipulated, however, right now any CAP members that they "recruit" would not be recognized at all. 

that CAP's contribution to the Air Force is largely on par and, perhaps, behind that which may be contributed by the Boy Scouts of America.

Very possibly true in terms of raw numbers.  However, if you look at the percentage of Boy Scouts who go into the military vs percentage of CAP members who go into the military, I suspect it is higher. 

We've bemoaned the lack of concrete data on impact of CAP cadet membership on future military membership on this board before and I agree with you there.

However, the point I'm trying to make is that the AF should have some interest in recruiting members into its Auxiliary whether they are cadets that may join the AF in the future or retired veterans that go on to serve in CAP for 20 years.  To me, I think AF recruiters should be at least moderately interested in recruiting CAP members into the "AF family".  Obviously, it is not their primary job, but they should be officialy encouraged and incentivized for it when possible. 

[DNall]

#1 - There are no "quotas" in AFRS.  We do have goals, just like a pilot has minimum hours to maintain proficiency.  Other services may (and do!) have quotas but, I did not serve in other services and won't speculate (though I do know.)

Symantics. There's a lot of pressure to make mission each month/quarter, rewards for exceeding & penalties for not getting it done... same as any other job in or out of the military.

#2 - Recruiters are not paid by the amount of folks they recruit and there are no added incentives for recruiting one sort of applicant over another.  Just as a pilot isn't rewarded financially for bombing 8 bridges vs. 7 bridges, Air Force recruiters don't get extra cha-ching for recruiting 5 members vs. 4 members.

There's competitions with rewards... Army side there's 10x more points for officers, but it's 50x more work & you don't get the points till they make it. Pretty big dis-incentive really, which is dumb cause they're way short on officers.

I would certainly agree on keeping CAP's contributions in perspective. I've always found all recruiters, but particularly AF, to be very receptive to working with CAP, if for no other reason than to figure out what the few lines on a couple forms are about. The people I can see them helping us with are teh younger siblings of their recruits that may want a taste as well, and the younger kids they run across in HS talking about wanting to go to a service academy, or wanting to fly, etc.

I haven't ever frankly seen a member come over from an AF recruiter referal, but I'd certainly be open to it. My interaction with them has tended to be more about presenting my cadets with options, and helping to support AF where we could. I don't think AF recruiters should be tasked to recruit for CAP, cause you are targeting dif age ranges & they have a big job to do already.

[fyrfitrmedic]

 I've seen a few cadet referrals from recruiters; in every case they stuck around long enough to earn their Mitchell then promptly enlisted.

[afgeo4]

I've noticed that enlistment among CAP cadets is much higher in units that are co-located with ANG/Res bases. I don't have a good relationship with AF recruiters here in NYC... probably because their "quotas" (they used that word, not me) are lower here than almost anywhere else in the country and they sit back and relax the rest of the time. I have somewhat of a relationship with the local AFRes recruiting office (mostly because they were able to recruit me an X number of years ago) and they have CAP literature on display. They were also the ones that pointed me toward CAP when Col. Rick Greenhut, then NYWG commander, left his business card with them.

[Monty]

However, the point I'm trying to make is that the AF should have some interest in recruiting members into its Auxiliary whether they are cadets that may join the AF in the future or retired veterans that go on to serve in CAP for 20 years.  To me, I think AF recruiters should be at least moderately interested in recruiting CAP members into the "AF family".  Obviously, it is not their primary job, but they should be officialy encouraged and incentivized for it when possible. 

Point taken and understood.  Now...

There are some are some dynamics to consider before we can fully make the best decision so, let's explore the typical scenario...

This might be long, but please read fully.  (Further, I've already seen some folks that are seemingly stubborn about what they *know* is fact, even when it isn't.  Not much I can do about that...preaching and harping won't make for any progress.  For those apt to read/listen, here you go):

-Air Force recruiting offices are generally one deep, in contrast to other services who are multi-staffed with more than one recruiter.  At least during my time, I was blessed to have great camaraderie with one service in particular (I won't overtly say which, but they say "oo-rah" a lot.)  Their station quota was the same enlistment expectation as my office - yet they outgunned me, personnel-wise, in a ratio of 6:1.

-In order to combat the notion that the Air Force sells itself (had LOTS of retirees from other services swear that their kids would only be joining the Air Force), AFRS hikes up the standards to make everything balance out.  An unpaid parking ticket WILL halt all processing for the Air Force.  At least circa-2002, one other service would allow members with open felonies (felonies not having gone to trial yet) join their DEP program....pending resolution.  Big difference....in terms of what the sole AF recruiter can work with when contrasted with other services (understand I'm making NO judgment on that....merely stating that it's not easy finding folks that meet the AF's arguably "elitist" standards.)

-Most folks think that bringing in 5 people per month is easy.  "Just sign 'em up."  Lord knows I wish it were that easy.  Shoot, I don't even see that typically done in CAP, where there are no work commitments or possibilities for deployment to combat zones!  Total time working for 4 or 5 people per month?  Honest to God average?  50-60 hours per week; mostly done at the behest of family time and weekends, on account that the best time to schedule appointments is when others are home and you are not.

With the hours and time away from family, the incredibly selective AFRS standards, and many other things that are NOT appropriate to discuss upon a public forum, it's a VERY tall order to compel a recruiter to work with a/any "immediately non-qualified" demographic that isn't going to be professional "time well spent" for the here and now.  (I realize that's not PC to say, but hey - it is what it is.)

Any free time that a recruiter spends with CAP, for example, is generally out of the goodness of the recruiter's heart because:

-He/She is doing it, knowing full well that despite his 50/60 hours per week, he/she probably isn't going to get anything out of it in terms of AFRS' needs

-It's "humanitarian" to help CAP, and I did just that, but see it from the recruiter's point of view.....and these are some very "un-PC" considerations

-----Most CAP seniors "know how it REALLY is" (which is generally arguable) and aren't as enthused to see a recruiter, even if it is AF, when one shows up

-----It's honorable and "above and beyond" to give CAP a hand, even if in mere presence, but after those crappy hours of work, what of the recruiter's family?  His/her college goals?  What if he/she is a church going guy/gal and wants to be active in his/her religious community?

-----Like it or not, AFJROTC wants a recruiter's time also, just like CAP might; just like the Scouts might; just like some other youth programs might.  All of which are not going to put folks in blue but rather, are more likely to assert an AF presence and that's it.  With that in mind, the subjective conversation THEN become, "okay, as X increases, is Y going to increase or......?"  (Positive correlations/negative correlations stuff, for you stats lovers like I am!)

Long story short....a recruiter's free time is extremely limited (and that is likely the largest negative of recruiting.)  As I've said MANY times before, the best thing if CAP wants kudos from the Air Force recruiters is to alleviate some of the time constraints AFRS imposes (which some people were quick to shoot down on this very forum, quoting things about "we can't help unless we have the CAP-USAF's authorization to help."  Balderdash...find me a CAP-USAF member that'd say "no" to whatever and I'll show you a 3-dollar bill.)

Want to compel a recruiter to sacrifice his/her small amount of free time for you?  CAP should consider being a bit humble and realize the whole "scratch my back and I'll scratch yours."  Formalize some agreement, whereby a cadet or senior member will agree to come in for an hour or two to help the recruiter out.  When I was doing appointments, I'd have KILLED to have somebody answer my phone in my one-deep office.  I'd have KILLED for an office partner to intercept the "walk-in" guy that came to see me but instead, got sidetracked by the other services' recruiters that would stand outside my office, smokin', jokin', and Cokin'.

Help for AFRS: manning!
Help for CAP:  recruiter will owe a life debt and will be inclined to support your activities.

I can't tell you HOW many times I judged a JROTC drill competition; gave presentations at VFW banquets; chaperoned JROTC balls, etc. ad nauseum.  I can't tell you how many times I supported CAP functions in both my USAF and CAP capacities.  I can't tell you how many times I was asked to come and present something to some organization.  CAP wasn't going to give me numbers in the blue suit BUT....CAP could have been a critical partner.

I was happy to do it...I was raised to do for others and offer up the suffering......and ironically, it was all because I wanted to help.  NEVER.....NEVER did I get a single "recruit" for having done any of it.  Interesting, eh?  (Realize also that I was the atypical recruiter; most realize they aren't going to get anything for their volunteerism and thus, probably won't do much outside of work at all!)

In the end...the focus between recruiters and CAP should likely be more geared towards alleviating each other's mission vs. offering some carrot as an incentive to recruit out of CAP.  Putting on my CAP Major's hat now, It's a bit ego-centric if we all were to think that CAP should be afforded all these preferential standings, just because it's cadets and seniors are auxiliary members.  Maybe we think it should, given that we're CAP.  Guess what?  AFJROTC thinks the same thing.  JRTOC cadets can march, as can CAP cadets....they know to put nametags on top of the pocket instead of on the flap....they have "it" down, right?  Like or not, it makes little different to an Air Force MTI at Lackland if somebody was in CAP or AFJROTC, and it makes little difference to an Air Force supervisor in a forward-deployed scenario if somebody was in CAP too - it's nice chatter fodder, but has hardly anything to do with what the American taxpayer expects of airmen, which is armed forces service as a (insert AFSC here) as opposed to discussing nuances of CAPM 39-1.

Just some perspective, which I'm sure can be quoted here and there in retorts!

Please also understand that I'm not some stereotypical CAP forum poster, with some ax to grind or some ego to boost.  I have no agenda, I'm not combative, and I'm not terribly apt to cut and paste quote after quote in order to argue on a forum.  I'm also not going to be stubborn so, be light-hearted WITH me and realize I'm not poking at anybody.....merely providing an insider's perspective that most folks would LOVE to know (I'd have loved to have found a successful recruiter to bounce "insider questions" off of....)

Maybe y'all do also?   

[ZigZag911]

Should AF recruiters be devoting time & effort to recruiting for CAP?  I don't think so.

Should they have CAP contact info for those who do not qualify for AF service (for age, medical reasons, and the like)?  Well, why not?

Of course, it is up to us to provide them with current information, and keep in touch with them.

As for incentives, service members receive promotion credit for community service....surely CAP qualifies?

[DNall]

-----Most CAP seniors "know how it REALLY is" (which is generally arguable) and aren't as enthused to see a recruiter, even if it is AF, when one shows up

I don't know what that means, but I've never seen much of that reaction. I think adults are naturally wairy of being treated like nothing but a recruiting pool or giving the impression to cadets or especially parents that we are some sort of hitler youth sling-shot peer pressure into military service program. There is maybe some lack of motivation sometimes cause recruiters tend to want valuable time/exposure/influence/etc from you, and tend not to be able to deliver much in return. Other than that qualification, recruiters of every service have always been welcomed with fairly open arms. YMMV.

Long story short....a recruiter's free time is extremely limited (and that is likely the largest negative of recruiting.)  As I've said MANY times before, the best thing if CAP wants kudos from the Air Force recruiters is to alleviate some of the time constraints AFRS imposes (which some people were quick to shoot down on this very forum, quoting things about "we can't help unless we have the CAP-USAF's authorization to help."  Balderdash...find me a CAP-USAF member that'd say "no" to whatever and I'll show you a 3-dollar bill.)

Agreed.

The place where I think AF recruiters would sling a brochure or send someone over to us is a time saving tactic. I think it's about taking this kid that's too young or not qual'd for some reason that produces too much work in too little time, and they say "well the AF can't help you for now, but go check this out..." Too young is one thing, but the rest is not really what I want coming in the door. Send them to that other service & be done with it.

[SAR-EMT1]

I just wanted to say two things -
1. Alot of CAP and JROTC cadets see enlisting as -pardon this- a waste of time and or talent and or a blow to ego.  It is far more common for them to progress directly to a four year college and join the ROTC program.  I have nothing against the enlisted side. But as my AFROTC det. at one point was 2/3  CAP or jrotc Id have to say that there is a bigger push towards the gold bars. Especially if they were cadet officers.

2. My unit has in the past offered staffing assistance to the local AF Recruiter and were politely dismissed. The next week we were greeted with open arms by the local ARMY recruiter. (note, this was several years ago)

[DNall]

1. Alot of CAP and JROTC cadets see enlisting as -pardon this- a waste of time and or talent and or a blow to ego.  It is far more common for them to progress directly to a four year college and join the ROTC program.  I have nothing against the enlisted side. Id have to say that there is a bigger push towards the gold bars.

That's true, and moreso with CAP than JROTC. We send a whole lot of people to officer programs by percentage versus enlisted compared to other programs. That's something I tend to make recruiters aware of from the start as part of balancing expectations. They then have conversations with kids that want to go officer & recommend things like us while they are still in HS, particularlly for people that are interested in service academies.

[Major Carrales]

If I may be so bold, I believe this issue of the last few posts is a given.  AFJROTC is a form of RESERVE OFFICERS training.

If one follows the logical progression, a Cadet that follows that route should next go to college (if it is affordable), enter AFROTC (or the like) and become an officer.

The CAP cadet program's currrent stated goals is to create better Citizens and promote aviation, not necessary recruiting for the USAF.  It, however, follows logically that CAP cadets...when coupled with JROTC would be headed for the military. 

Of CAP cadets I've known, most have their minds on getting into a good University.  A small amount on becoming officers via ROTC.  Those that "go enlisted" are those that either cannot afford the University (and intend to go later) or desire the military as a life track anyway.

I see all those goals as worthy.

[DNall]

No it's not. AFROTC at the college level has the same stated mission of creating aviation minded citizens for America. As does JROTC, which is a little kid's familiarization with the service, but little like the college level program in any facet. CAP is much the same. The curriculum run at AFJROTC is incredibly similiar to CAP, mostly cause it was taken from CAP back when the program was set up & both have evolved seperately since then. The JROTC program is NOT meant to be a feeder for the college program. And the college program is not entirely about making officers - well it is, but you have to give lip service to the other crap too.

There are pros & cons to each. In the college program, a select group of cadets are retained in the commissioning program. Those that are fall into the leaders for the Air Force, and those that aren't fall into the responsible aerospace minded citizens for America. The same is true of CAP & every other similiar program. We produce product X, which if applied to the military equals a military leader, and if not then equals a responsible citizen that values airpower & has a strong grounding in core values.

[RiverAux]

I of course would not want an AF recruiter to divert time away from their primary job of getting AF recruits, but what I was getting at was taking a few minutes with people that they've already got in their office or on the phone and talking up CAP AFTER it the recruiter has determined that the person won't be able to go into the AF (assuming that the disqualification reason also wouldn't keep them out of CAP). 

I would not expect recruiters to go hit the bricks primarily looking for CAP recruits, but they should be formally encouraged to direct people to CAP whenever they can. 

The informal system that many units have set up with their recruiters is good, but I don't think it is terribly widespread, which is why I think some more formal nationwide program involving AF recruiters is necessary. 

What incentives can be offerered to them?  Not knowing the nuts and bolts of the program its hard for me to say. 

[Monty]

As for incentives, service members receive promotion credit for community service....surely CAP qualifies?

Uh.....since when did promotion credit in WAPS derive from community service (we're still talking about AF recruiters....right?)

[Eagle400]

I don't think that there should be a reward for AF recruiters who recruit CAP members.  Their job is to recruit members into the Air Force, not CAP.

However, I do think that all AF recruiters should know about CAP so that if they have recruits who do not meet the medical standards, they can be referred to CAP. 

That way, someone who wants to serve their country can still do so and gain satisfaction from being able to serve and wear the Air Force uniform.

It wouldn't cost any money, and it would be a great way for CAP to gain new members.  Plus, it may also brighten the day of someone who has lost the opportunity to serve their country in one area.  

[Major Carrales]

It wouldn't cost any money, and it would be a great way for CAP to gain new members.  Plus, it may also brighten the day of someone who has lost the opportunity to serve their country in one area.  

That may actually be the nicest thing anyone has ever said about CAP service here.

1) It acknowledges CAP as a unique service to the community.
2) It understands that CAP has an important place in the Air Force Family
3) It includes the USAF in CAP recruiting

[ZigZag911]

As for incentives, service members receive promotion credit for community service....surely CAP qualifies?

Uh.....since when did promotion credit in WAPS derive from community service (we're still talking about AF recruiters....right?)

My mistake, sorry!

[O-Rex]

I may be digressing a bit here, but do any of you use your local recruiters as a resource of any kind, for anything from use of facilities, or even a few gee-gaws as giveaways to cadets?

I would think that the exposure would be worth their effort.

[DNall]

If someone turns up DQ'd from the AF, it may be criminal (too many tickets) or medical, which would not preclude them from CAP, and I don't really want them referring that person to CAP. I really think CAP members SHOULD meet the same standards to enlist... and listen, having just done a commissioning pysical a few days ago, let me tell you it's almost impossible to fail. If you do fal, there's a good reason for it & that should probably preclude you from CAP for all the same reasons.

I get a recruiter from every service (minus CG) in once a year, at least one per quarter, and try to give AF a shot once a quarter if they're willing to take it. I also have service academy admissions liaison officers in once a year, and try to get cadets from a couple major universities in when I can (once every other year usually). My primary focus is exposure & familiarizing cadets with their opportunities. At the same time it networks & builds relationships with each of those orgs that ultimately benefit my people if they choose to go that route.

I do get some free crap, as you'd expect, but I don't get any meassurable service from any of the above cause they frankly have very little to nothing to offer me & that's about what I expect from them.

I think it'd be great if we did more to aid AF recruiters, and of course we'd love to have them aid us, but really I think we're all looking for ways to aid the military in more operational roles. Ultimately CAP is a feeder of the military, the AF recruiters are not there to feed CAP.

[Eagle400]

If someone turns up DQ'd from the AF, it may be criminal (too many tickets) or medical, which would not preclude them from CAP, and I don't really want them referring that person to CAP.

Well, I can understand not wanting to refer someone who has a criminal record.  That kind of thing will preclude someone from CAP.  However, medical disqualification is a completely different story. 

I really think CAP members SHOULD meet the same standards to enlist...

Why?  The Coast Guard Auxiliary does not require its members to meet enlistment standards.  Why should CAP?  CAP members are not airmen - they are civilians who volunteer their time in service to their country, just like Coast Guard auxiliarists. 

Requiring CAP members to meet enlistment standards would cost the organization some members.  That would get rid of everyone with Asthma, Cancer, Diabetes, and other conditions of the like.  This would include 'valuable' members.   

and listen, having just done a commissioning pysical a few days ago, let me tell you it's almost impossible to fail. If you do fal, there's a good reason for it & that should probably preclude you from CAP for all the same reasons.

I disagree.  Again, CAP members are not (and should not) be held to enlistment standards.   

Ultimately CAP is a feeder of the military, the AF recruiters are not there to feed CAP.

I agree.  All I'm asking is that every Air Force recruiter know about CAP so those who are medically disqualified can be referred to CAP.  It's not that much to ask.       

[RiverAux]

I really think CAP members SHOULD meet the same standards to enlist

Well, I guess you've just eliminated about 90% of CAP's current members as the vast majority of senior members are too old to enlist and the vast majority of cadets are too young to enlist, never mind meeting physical standards that are not at all necessary for CAP to accomplish its mission. 

[DNall]

Don't be so literal River, you know very well what I meant. Clearly I was not refering to age/ht/wt.

I understand we're equal opportunity & all that, but operationally we do missions that are physically demanding, moreso in fact than most military jobs. You may have noticed the people we draw whose military skills are most transferable to our work are Rangers & SF types. It's true that there other things & people don't HAVE to do ES, but then neither can we prohibit them from it while complying with regs. There should be a legitimate physical capability standard, and I think if you built one you'd find it very near an enlistment physical.... which is pretty much turn your head & cough, okay you're qualified.

Anyway, recruiters need to focus on their own duties for the AF. I do think it'd be benefitial to have a familiarization with CAP in thier training program, and I do think it'd be nice to encourage local relationships, but realistically they can't help you much, and you shouldn't look to them for anything like that. You need to have your own recruiting officer out getting people to join your unit. If you want to make a training program for that, or brainstorm some ideas on how to make it work logisitcally, well that's proabbly a more useful conversation.

[RiverAux]

There is a vast difference between legitimate physical standards directly related to your CAP job duties, such as will be required at some point under the new national standards and the physical standards required to enlist in the US military, some of which were pointed out in prior posts.

For example, I have very bad eyesight and even though it is correctable to 20/20 I was not allowed to enlist due to the amount of correction necessary to get to 20/20.  This makes perfect sense for military members -- after all, if I lost my glasses in combat I would be a danger to myself and others.  However, this is not a factor in CAP operations.  Should I not be in CAP? 

I know you're fairly young and based on the "turn your head and cough" description of your physical you probably answered "no" to a dozens and dozens of questions about whether you had various medical conditions.  I doubt that you'll find very many of our senior members over 40 years of age that probably don't have at least 1 medical condition that would preclude their enlistment into the military. 

So, while I'm on board for requiring physical tests for CAP members related to the duty they're going to perform, I think you're vastly underestimating the potential impact on CAP membership (for no real benefit) of requiring new members meet military enlistment standards. 

[Major Carrales]

As I see it everyone in CAP graviates to the job to which they are best suited based on physical prowess, expertise and interest.

Younger, more physically capabile, types tend to be active in the Groud element.  Those that like radios and want to learn to operated them or continue to, do there. 

There are also those simply dedicated to service.  Sometimes older, sometimes not; these are the type that say: "I want to do something...assign me!" or "WOW!!! The Civil Air Patrol exists...that is the coolest thing.  WHERE DO I SIGN!"

If there were ever to be strict guidelines, I think they would have to be self-imposed and organized within the CAP.  The "SENIOR ENCAMPMENTS," "GSAR Schools" and the like.  A good project for people like Dennis to organize of the willing.  Allowing others to do the same in their field.

[DNall]

You may not be able to fly, but you can enlist with EXTREMELY bad vision as long as it's correctable. And PRK, etc are acceptable too, including for flight (with some limits). I've passed a physical & trained witha broken leg. It's just not that big a deal. It's no more invasive than your standard medical checkup, & driver's eye test. Everything is waiverable, including chronic conditions & ongoing medication needs. You may need a consult and/or a waiver, but very few people are turned away.

I understand and agree that the NIMS standard PFT should be in place for applicable ES quals. I think there also ought to be a minimum physical/medical standard for membership, and that it ought to be in the range of what we expect from an entry level GTM or aircrew member. That makes everyone basically qualified to train & that's what we need to be focused on.

[RiverAux]

It's no more invasive than your standard medical checkup, & driver's eye test

Are you KIDDING me??  yeah, they're not making you take the astronaut physical fitness tests, but please take a look at the almost endless list of things that can disqualify you.

Waivers?  Depends on exactly how bad they need people.  Right now I'm betting that the AF (cutting down on people) is not granting many while the Army and Marines (expanding) aren't being quite as strict. 

[Al Sayre]

I know for a fact that CAP has some blind radio operators, and amputee's who serve in the Cadet Program.  Even someone who is wheelchair bound could make a contribution as a Mission Staff Assistant, Mission Chaplain, Finance and Admin Section Chief, Mission Radio Operator or Communications Unit Leader.  Why would we exclude these people?  Hell, I've got an 80% service connected disability, and that hasn't stopped me from flying, or doing moderate Ground Team work.  Just last week I finished my IC3 quals, but I certainly can't meet military enlistment standards.  Do you propose that I shouldn't be allowed to participate?

[Major Carrales]

CAP gets its collevtive "power" from people who are volunteers and driven by the passion inherent in the "need to serve."  All contributions, be they as small as a person operating a radio at a staging area or mission base while others contribute piloting skills or ground team expertise, are equal in my eye.

Everyone in their place working as a team of volunteer accomplish the mission, that has been part of CAP since day ONE.  Its Citizen Volunteer Airmen working together for their Community, State and Nation.

Those that lose sight of that are forever frustrated by CAP.

[FARRIER]

If someone turns up DQ'd from the AF, it may be criminal (too many tickets) or medical, which would not preclude them from CAP, and I don't really want them referring that person to CAP. I really think CAP members SHOULD meet the same standards to enlist...

Dennis, you need to do you homework here. A person denied enlistment due to flat feet. There is not one thing physically wrong with that person. I see the military's reason behind it. But reasons for keeping them out of CAP you have to be kidding me. 

[mikeylikey]

If someone turns up DQ'd from the AF, it may be criminal (too many tickets) or medical, which would not preclude them from CAP, and I don't really want them referring that person to CAP. I really think CAP members SHOULD meet the same standards to enlist...

Dennis, you need to do you homework here. A person denied enlistment due to flat feet. There is not one thing physically wrong with that person. I see the military's reason behind it. But reasons for keeping them out of CAP you have to be kidding me. 

Agreed!  CAP has always been a front runner allowing those with a disability to serve their community.

[Psicorp]

I know for a fact that CAP has some blind radio operators, and amputee's who serve in the Cadet Program.  Even someone who is wheelchair bound could make a contribution as a Mission Staff Assistant, Mission Chaplain, Finance and Admin Section Chief, Mission Radio Operator or Communications Unit Leader.  Why would we exclude these people?  Hell, I've got an 80% service connected disability, and that hasn't stopped me from flying, or doing moderate Ground Team work.  Just last week I finished my IC3 quals, but I certainly can't meet military enlistment standards.  Do you propose that I shouldn't be allowed to participate?

I agree absolutely.  We're all volunteers and there is always something that needs to be done.  I'm finding out that Mission Base staff is the one area where there is always a need for personnel, and being short staffed makes for a very long weekend for a handfull of people.