Augmentation Rank

[JayT]

I'm just curious, because it seems a lot of us want to volunteer to work on AF bases, but we seem to be hung up over the uniform a little to much.

[mikeylikey]

Seems like CAP and or the AF got us cut of any uniform issues with the new VSAF program.  No Rank, just polos and khakis.  As a matter of fact, I hope that this new uniform replaces the current Grey and Polo's!  (Wishfull thinking, I know  )

[RiverAux]

It isn't a big issue, its the principal of the thing.  Either we're worthy of wearing rank and military uniforms or we're not. 

[Eeyore]

It would take A LOT for the AF to consider us worthy, I never see that happening.

[Major Carrales]

What wrong with you folks and this subject.  If you are a Captain in the Civil Air Patrol that is what you are, you should not be ashamed of it and those military personnel you are augmenting should recognize (and be briefed) the fact that you are what you are.

You would also have to ask "what are we augmenting?"  Is it combat training?  Is it Disater SAR stuff?  An Airshow?

Let us wear the rank of what we are and live up to the expectations that conveys.

Oh...and, "be more proud of what you are than ashamed of what you are not!"

[SStradley]

What wrong with you folks and this subject.  If you are a Captain in the Civil Air Patrol that is what you are, you should not be ashamed of it and those military personnel you are augmenting should recognize (and be briefed) the fact that you are what you are.

You would also have to ask "what are we augmenting?"  Is it combat training?  Is it Disater SAR stuff?  An Airshow?

Let us wear the rank of what we are and live up to the expectations that conveys.

Oh...and, "be more proud of what you are than ashamed of what you are not!"

Major,  The question was would I still serve if I could not wear my rank.  My answer to that question is yes.

I am proud of my rank in CAP, and I hope that if I ever had the chance to serve in that manor that I would serve in the capacity of Major Stradley of the CAP.  But if because of some real or perceived problem that the USAF has with my rank, then I would still serve as Scott of the CAP.

[Major Carrales]

What wrong with you folks and this subject.  If you are a Captain in the Civil Air Patrol that is what you are, you should not be ashamed of it and those military personnel you are augmenting should recognize (and be briefed) the fact that you are what you are.

You would also have to ask "what are we augmenting?"  Is it combat training?  Is it Disater SAR stuff?  An Airshow?

Let us wear the rank of what we are and live up to the expectations that conveys.

Oh...and, "be more proud of what you are than ashamed of what you are not!"

Major,  The question was would I still serve if I could not wear my rank.  My answer to that question is yes.

I am proud of my rank in CAP, and I hope that if I ever had the chance to serve in that manor that I would serve in the capacity of Major Stradley of the CAP.  But if because of some real or perceived problem that the USAF has with my rank, then I would still serve as Scott of the CAP.

My frustration with the issue is that some people have a real sort of inferiority complex when in come to the USAF or other military, and rightly so.  If one looks at CAP rank as if it was related to the USAF rank, then CAP rank is always inferior.  However, the correct way to look at it is that the CAP rank is what it is, rank within the CAP.

There is no "matching up" CAP and USAF rank.  The proper thing to do is to brief the people being augmented as to what a CAP Officer is and their role in the mission.  CAP Officer pretending to be something else are a different matter.  A CAP Officer passing himself as an OFFICER should be relieved on the spot and brought up on CAP action.

I conversed with "teh powers that be" before on the matter and they have no problem with the rank issue so long as CAP uniforms are distinctive and CAP Officers don't "over step authority."  Thus, it is up to the CAP to live up to its responsibility by enforcing the standards.

[mikeylikey]

^ What authority does CAP have when augmenting AD units/stations/people?


NONE!

They left the rank out of the picture most likely because the AF "Said To".  It is not the AF line we need to inform, but CAP-USAF HQ itself!

CAP members should be proud of their CAP-Specific achievements, taking away the CAP earned Rank really stinks.  I hope they change that.  For the most I would still go into the augmentation situation and say "I am Capt. Whosever from the Civil Air Patrol, I have been assigned to this office today".

[Slim]

There is no "matching up" CAP and USAF rank.  The proper thing to do is to brief the people being augmented as to what a CAP Officer is and their role in the mission.  CAP Officer pretending to be something else are a different matter.  A CAP Officer passing himself as an OFFICER should be relieved on the spot and brought up on CAP action.

I conversed with "teh powers that be" before on the matter and they have no problem with the rank issue so long as CAP uniforms are distinctive and CAP Officers don't "over step authority."  Thus, it is up to the CAP to live up to its responsibility by enforcing the standards.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, with this one exception.  It is possible to exhibit traits characteristic of officers without necessarily impersonating one. 

If participating in this program, depending on the duties we're assigned; yes, I would portray myself as an officer, a CAP officer.

Whether you wear it or not, if you introduce yourself as an officer, the troops (enlisted/NCO/officer alike) are going to expect a certain level of deportment out of you.

I'm not saying we shouldn't introduce ourselves by using our grade.  But, if we do, we shouldn't be hanging out in the coffee room, smokin' n jokin' with the E-2 admin clerks.  Or drinking dinner with the NCOs (at their invitation, of course), after hours. 

One area we could really screw this up in is to throw even a minor shockwave through the AF policy of discouraging fraternization between officers and enlisted troops. 

There is nothing wrong with saying "I'm a CAP major", or captain, or lieutenant, whatever.  Just make sure that your performance and decorum around the office/shop/wherever don't bring a discredit to our service, and the grade.

As far as the program itself goes, I don't know whether I'd participate in it or not.  My jury's still out and waiting for a verdict on what exactly the AF wants us to do.  Don't think I'd volunteer for a ~80 mile round trip to mow lawns one day a week; I can stay home and do that all I want.

[mikeylikey]

What is the big deal here.  Before everyone gets their briefs twisted, lets see first what the AF will have us doing.  I am very doubtfull until I see what the jobs will be.  Like some have said already, why volunteer to cut grass when we can do that at home.  I am more interested in how CAP volunteers with little or no HR experience (Group Commanders) will be able to select the best volunteer for the job.

I predict this will turn out to be just another "best Friends club", with all the better jobs going to the Group Commanders Friends and associates.

As far as rank goes, lets either ditch rank altogether now, or embrace it.  We can't move forward in Limbo.

[JCJ]

removed - unfortunately posted in the wrong forum

[mikeylikey]

  We haven't even talked about the situation where, in an unusual situation, a junior enlisted troop might be confused and look to the (no UCMJ authority) CAP officer for instructions rather than his usual supervisor - because the CAP officer has a military officer grade and a uniform that looks very much like a USAF uniform.

This also applies only to VSAF.  Other CAP activities on USAF bases, such as units who meet or have facilities on base, will continue to wear our standard CAP uniforms (USAF or Corporate style), CAP grade, etc. as always.

Going off what you said, the Officers that meet on military installations should not wear rank.  Period.  Would not want to confuse those Junior enlisted guys anymore than they already are. 

Also, if CAP members are looked to for some type of guidance, is that so BAD?  Really??  Apparently, the enlisted guys bosses are deployed and that is why CAP is filling in, right?  Or the Office is half-staffed, thats why CAP is filling in, right? 

This whole thing will turn out to be a bust in my book.  However I will support whatever direction NHQ takes, and then when it fails, I can at least say "I supported it like a good boy should".

[Major Carrales]

There is no "matching up" CAP and USAF rank.  The proper thing to do is to brief the people being augmented as to what a CAP Officer is and their role in the mission.  CAP Officer pretending to be something else are a different matter.  A CAP Officer passing himself as an OFFICER should be relieved on the spot and brought up on CAP action.

I conversed with "teh powers that be" before on the matter and they have no problem with the rank issue so long as CAP uniforms are distinctive and CAP Officers don't "over step authority."  Thus, it is up to the CAP to live up to its responsibility by enforcing the standards.

I agree with pretty much everything you said, with this one exception.  It is possible to exhibit traits characteristic of officers without necessarily impersonating one. 

If participating in this program, depending on the duties we're assigned; yes, I would portray myself as an officer, a CAP officer.

Whether you wear it or not, if you introduce yourself as an officer, the troops (enlisted/NCO/officer alike) are going to expect a certain level of deportment out of you.

I'm not saying we shouldn't introduce ourselves by using our grade.  But, if we do, we shouldn't be hanging out in the coffee room, smokin' n jokin' with the E-2 admin clerks.  Or drinking dinner with the NCOs (at their invitation, of course), after hours. 

One area we could really screw this up in is to throw even a minor shockwave through the AF policy of discouraging fraternization between officers and enlisted troops. 

There is nothing wrong with saying "I'm a CAP major", or captain, or lieutenant, whatever.  Just make sure that your performance and decorum around the office/shop/wherever don't bring a discredit to our service, and the grade.

As far as the program itself goes, I don't know whether I'd participate in it or not.  My jury's still out and waiting for a verdict on what exactly the AF wants us to do.  Don't think I'd volunteer for a ~80 mile round trip to mow lawns one day a week; I can stay home and do that all I want.

Well, said.  My point is so long as we remember that we are CAP OFFICERS, and create OFFICERSHIP among those that augment, we will be fine.

[SStradley]

The uniform & rank issues were carefully considered as the program was developed. 

You know this how? Were you part of the carefull consideration, or do you know someone first hand who was?

Based upon what I have seen lately "carefull consideration" and "new program" generally don't go together in CAP.

The new uniform is a case in point.  While I like it and would rather have it thank the polo, we had the polo, and NHQ is trying to reduce the number of uniforms.  Has set up a committee to advise them on the reduction of the number of uniforms, and from somewhere above we get another uniform.

[RiverAux]

most of which revolve around the situation of individuals (CAP Officers) wearing USAF type uniforms, wearing USAF similar grade insignia (and not subject to or having the authority of the UCMJ) working on a military base in positions that are often manned and/or supervised by enlisted military personnel - or lower ranking officers.  It would be enough of a disruption to throw in a situation where a Lt. Col. would be supervised by a TSgt, complicated even more by the "non-UCMJ" status of CAP.  The military just doesn't do that.  We haven't even talked about the situation where, in an unusual situation, a junior enlisted troop might be confused and look to the (no UCMJ authority) CAP officer for instructions rather than his usual supervisor - becasue the CAP officer has a military officer grade and a uniform that looks very much like a USAF uniform.

Oh, I see.  CAP will wear civilian clothes because the AF thinks its own people are too stupid to know the differences between CAP and real military officers and that an airman might do something in contravention of the UCMJ because a CAP officer told him too.  Now I get it. 

[JCJ]

No, I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you don't get it.

[Pylon]

However, the correct way to look at it is that the CAP rank is what it is, rank within the CAP.

There is no "matching up" CAP and USAF rank. 

The problem with that is that our grade insignia is the same as AF.  So, yes, it gives the distinct impression that it matches up.  The vast majority of the USAF is not familiar with CAP, our differences or even what we are.

It would be one thing if CAP had our own rank system:  CAP member 1, 2, 3, 4 or whatever.  But we don't.  So for as long as we use the same insignia as real military officers, we'll have most people drawing the conclusion that we're the same or very similar to commissioned officers.

[JCJ]

However, the correct way to look at it is that the CAP rank is what it is, rank within the CAP.

There is no "matching up" CAP and USAF rank. 

The problem with that is that our grade insignia is the same as AF.  So, yes, it gives the distinct impression that it matches up.  The vast majority of the USAF is not familiar with CAP, our differences or even what we are.

It would be one thing if CAP had our own rank system:  CAP member 1, 2, 3, 4 or whatever.  But we don't.  So for as long as we use the same insignia as real military officers, we'll have most people drawing the conclusion that we're the same or very similar to commissioned officers.

Shack!

[RiverAux]

Same old argument.  Sgh....I suppose it is incumbent upon me to now remind everyone of police and firefighters using military rank and titles....

[Pylon]

Same old argument.  Sgh....I suppose it is incumbent upon me to now remind everyone of police and firefighters using military rank and titles....

But if an organization was the U.S. Police Auxiliary and they wore police-like uniforms with badges and duty belts, but their missions were not the same as actual police, and they had no real authority over civilians or real police - wouldn't real police get confused by auxiliary sergeants, detectives and captains if they didn't have the same training and backgrounds, didn't carry out the same types of missions, and didn't have the same responsibilities and authorities?   I bet it would be confusing to police agencies they worked with.

What is there was a U.S. Fire Service Auxiliary and they wore very similar fire service uniforms, wore fire-style badges and amongst their ranks they had Firefighters and Lieutenants, Captains and Chiefs?   But they didn't carry out actual firefighting missions, have authority of real firefighters or have the same training, education and background as their "Chief" and "Lieutenant" etc counterparts?   Wouldn't that be pretty confusing to other fire agencies they worked with.   

Each agency would be constantly explaining "Well, it's only Auxiliary rank, so I'm an Auxiliary Detective... totally different!  Not at all the same thing."   How would a firefighter or police officer know that it's not the same thing without the explanation.  They would assume, right?

It's not just the grade insignia, but it's that we'd be in AF-style uniforms, on AF bases, working with AF personnel.  Can't imagine why they'd draw assumptions?