Cold Weather Uniform Items

[Capt M. Sherrod]

I have combed through M39-1, and I can not find anywhere in there where it discusses authorization for wearing ECWCS clothing. 

Since I am from the upper regions of the country where the previous uniform committees would never set foot in after Labor Day, I would like to be able to purchase / use the proper attire and still be in a uniform rather than look like a civilian carrying a "weird looking electronic thingy"(LPER). 

Does anyone here have a reg cite they can point me to?

Thank you.

[JayT]

I have combed through M39-1, and I can not find anywhere in there where it discusses authorization for wearing ECWCS clothing. 

Since I am from the upper regions of the country where the previous uniform committees would never set foot in after Labor Day, I would like to be able to purchase / use the proper attire and still be in a uniform rather than look like a civilian carrying a "weird looking electronic thingy"(LPER). 

Does anyone here have a reg cite they can point me to?

Thank you.

Check the one of those famous ICL's. It's in there somewhere.

I don't know about the full ECWCS through.

[Eclipse]

Full-on ECWCS hasn't been approved (or even discussed, that I can recall).

To me, that would be considered more tactical gear than a uniform - used as needed without an issue.

Barring that, I would imagine a local supplement is appropriate.

[tribalelder]

Eclipse-

That sounds like a SAFETY based not-by-the book (CAPM39-1) response. I agree-I'm just surprised we agree.

We have lots of stuff we carry/wear that fails to appear in 39-1. 

Our uniform manual is written for the encampment parade ground in July.  By the book-you can't have the radio and your phone both clipped to your waistband.  No overshoes or galoshes authorized.  Gloves only, no mittens (-20degrees ?).  No stocking cap.  No hooded parka. Backpacks? NO PONCHO EITHER.   

In the green task book, it is 'rainwear, durable'.  A web search for that nomenclature failed to yield a NSN.

John Desmarais' response on my question (sp) on whether 'rainwear durable' was a generic description for military and commercial products or a specific NSN'd product was that the description in the taskbook was generic, and vague on purpose.

[Capt M. Sherrod]

OK, so are ECWCS and Gore-Tex the same thing, different, or what?  I know that there are "Gore-Tex" slides that have been discussed here.  With that, what are the wear requirements for Gore-Tex (height / weight) or anyone?  Colors?

[Pylon]

OK, so are ECWCS and Gore-Tex the same thing, different, or what?  I know that there are "Gore-Tex" slides that have been discussed here.  With that, what are the wear requirements for Gore-Tex (height / weight) or anyone?  Colors?

The AF-style woodland ECWCS parka (aka: Gor-tex) is authorized for wear with the AF-style BDUs.  As such, it has the same guidelines for wear as all of our AF-style uniforms.

As is with corporate uniforms, outerwear is pretty much whatever you want.  So if you find an all-blue ECWCS parka or a white with pink polka dots parka and want to wear it over your Blue BDUs, by all means... go right ahead.   Just no mixing n' matching:  no blue or "other" ECWCS parkas over AF-style BDUs and no wearing the woodland AF-style parka with the corporate digs.

[Eclipse]

Eclipse-

That sounds like a SAFETY based not-by-the book (CAPM39-1) response. I agree-I'm just surprised we agree.

I'm glad we semi-agree, but IMHO there is a difference between tactical equipment and uniform items.  The biggest being that nothing "tactical" should be worn to a unit meeting or in any situation which does not require that equipment or gear.

In this case, I seriously doubt anyone would even noticed the difference between the standard and winter parka - if you wear the winter pants, someone might.

As to the radio issue, I believe you are correct, but I agree with that reg anyway, so for me its a moot point.  Too many of our members walk around looking like Batman with all the stuff on their belts. 

[arajca]

OK, so are ECWCS and Gore-Tex the same thing, different, or what?  I know that there are "Gore-Tex" slides that have been discussed here.  With that, what are the wear requirements for Gore-Tex (height / weight) or anyone?  Colors?

The AF-style woodland ECWCS parka (aka: Gor-tex) is authorized for wear with the AF-style BDUs.  As such, it has the same guidelines for wear as all of our AF-style uniforms.

As is with corporate uniforms, outerwear is pretty much whatever you want.  So if you find an all-blue ECWCS parka or a white with pink polka dots parka and want to wear it over your Blue BDUs, by all means... go right ahead.   Just no mixing n' matching:  no blue or "other" ECWCS parkas over AF-style BDUs and no wearing the woodland AF-style parka with the corporate digs.

Source please?

Ref: CAP Knowledge Base: Wear of the Gortex Parka
Here it says you can wear the Gore-tes parka with the bbdu, blue utility uniform, and blue flightsuit.

[Pylon]

Source please?

Ref: CAP Knowledge Base: Wear of the Gortex Parka
Here it says you can wear the Gore-tes parka with the bbdu, blue utility uniform, and blue flightsuit.

I know this goes back to a philosophical debate in which the two camps will never agree, but, in my opinion, information in the CAP Knowledgebase is not regulatory and doesn't constitute an authorization.

The actual Interim Change Letter does not authorize the Goretex jacket with the CAP distinctive uniforms.  The actual ICL only authorizes it for the BDU uniform (my emphasis added):

It gives me great pleasure to announce the Air Force has now authorized the wear of
the Gortex parka for CAP members.  This outergarment provides maximum protection from the elements and is now authorized for all members wearing the BDU uniform.

To add to that, AF-style outerwear has never been allowed to be worn with corporate uniforms so I wouldn't see why there'd be a departure from that solid precedent.

To add to that, CAPM 39-1 specifies civilian outerwear as the only authorized outerwear with corporate uniforms.  The Goretex parka is an AF-style uniform item.  It needed AF-approval to wear as stated right in the ICL.  CAPM 39-1, Para 1-1, establishes the AF (CAP-USAF) as approving authority for AF-style items and CAP for civilian ("other-than-AF") items.  If it wasn't an AF-style item, it wouldn't have gone to CAP-USAF for approval.

CAPM 39-1, Para 4-1  (my emphasis added)

Appropriate civilian outerwear is authorized with these combinations including the light blue
windbreaker with the CAP seal embroidered on the right breast and the dark blue flight jacket.

[mikeylikey]

SO what about the "gor-tex" pants?  All I see is parka??

[afgeo4]

OK, so are ECWCS and Gore-Tex the same thing, different, or what?  I know that there are "Gore-Tex" slides that have been discussed here.  With that, what are the wear requirements for Gore-Tex (height / weight) or anyone?  Colors?

The AF-style woodland ECWCS parka (aka: Gor-tex) is authorized for wear with the AF-style BDUs.  As such, it has the same guidelines for wear as all of our AF-style uniforms.

As is with corporate uniforms, outerwear is pretty much whatever you want.  So if you find an all-blue ECWCS parka or a white with pink polka dots parka and want to wear it over your Blue BDUs, by all means... go right ahead.   Just no mixing n' matching:  no blue or "other" ECWCS parkas over AF-style BDUs and no wearing the woodland AF-style parka with the corporate digs.

Ah... but no one authorized the ECWCS pants or approved a liner to be worn with the parka such as black fleece.

I wear air force approved clothing such as black mock-necks and black fleece jackets No one has made any comments to me about it because it looks right with the uniform and because it's a safety issue. I think if someone was to tell me to take off my fleece from under my ECWCS parka, they would end up having the safety issue.

[Pylon]

Ah... but no one authorized the ECWCS pants or approved a liner to be worn with the parka such as black fleece.

I wear air force approved clothing such as black mock-necks and black fleece jackets No one has made any comments to me about it because it looks right with the uniform and because it's a safety issue. I think if someone was to tell me to take off my fleece from under my ECWCS parka, they would end up having the safety issue.

The pants are not specifically authorized, no.  I will add that to the list of things for the National Uniform Committee, along with clearing up ambiguity from the Knowledgebase on wear of the Gortex parka.

But wearing the liner for the ECWCS parka would be a given, since it can be a part of the parka.  We didn't have to separately list out as authorized the liners for the lightweight blues jacket or blues overcoat, but it's okay to wear it because the liner is just an internal part of that uniform article.

[Gunner C]

Just for my own professional edification, what does ECWCS stand for?  I think I can figure it out but I'd rather be right than close.

GC

[MIKE]

Extended Cold Weather Clothing System

[JayT]

Full-on ECWCS hasn't been approved (or even discussed, that I can recall).

To me, that would be considered more tactical gear than a uniform - used as needed without an issue.

Barring that, I would imagine a local supplement is appropriate.

Show me where 'tactical gear' is mentioned in any regulation?

[Hawk200]

Show me where 'tactical gear' is mentioned in any regulation?

Tactical gear are items utilized related to the mission, or used reasonably to ensure the safety of the member.

If you want to argue against it, then you cannot wear LBE, rucksacks, polypro, long sleeve undershirts, or other such items. About the only tactical gear that is mentioned in the manual are CamelBaks (although they call them "Camel Packs" in 39-1).

[RiverAux]

There is a difference between that stuff and an item of clothing, which a jacket is. 

[afgeo4]

Pylon, the ECWCS parka doesn't have a liner that comes with it. Instead, fleece jackets were authorized as a part of the ECWC System. The fleece can be worn under or over the BDU blouse or as a liner for the parka. Any black collar fleece can be worn as long as the logo doesn't show.

On that note, the US Army made special fleece as part of their new ACU ECWCS which actually has velcro for name and branch tapes along with sections of it being in ACUPAT. Other sand color fleece jackets are authorized as well. I believe the black one is still ok too.

ABU outer-garments include the all-weather coat, ABU improved rain suit (IRS) or All Purpose Environmental Clothing System (APECS), with or without liner, or hooded cold-weather parka.

APECS liner is fleece black or sage green. Mixing camouflaged patterns is only authorized in the AOR until residual stock is depleted.

Mock⁄Turtleneck in desert sand (or similar color) is authorized. Gloves and watch caps may be black, sage green or desert sand. Scarf color must match liner color.

[mikeylikey]

On that note, the US Army made special fleece as part of their new ACU ECWCS which actually has velcro for name and branch tapes along with sections of it being in ACUPAT.

Really.....The ones I see at MCSS have no ACU material on them.  They would be perfect for underneath the parka.  We already use the Army windbreaker with the Corporates, might as well use the Army fleece.

[Hawk200]

On that note, the US Army made special fleece as part of their new ACU ECWCS which actually has velcro for name and branch tapes along with sections of it being in ACUPAT.

Really.....The ones I see at MCSS have no ACU material on them.  They would be perfect for underneath the parka.  We already use the Army windbreaker with the Corporates, might as well use the Army fleece.

I've never seen a fleece with ACUPAT that is permitted with the uniform. I've seen a Foliage Green fleece with Velcro strips for name, rank, and US Army tapes. And the black one is authorized, but doesn't have any Velcro.