Civil Air Patrol Reserve

[star1151]

Once they stop showing up regularly they are usually totally ignored and forgotten about unless your unit happens to have an unusually aggressive retention program which is not the norm. This option could be used as a way to combat that issue.

Wrong.  It couldn't be used to combat that issue...at least, I'm in that situation, and it wouldn't help me.  In fact, it would make me LESS likely to come back.  I'd feel incredibly unwelcome and unwanted and would probably stop showing up altogether and maybe even change my phone just in case someone actually DID call at some point. 

Who wants to only be wanted on a VERY part time basis? And frankly, like you said, those very part timers are going to be ignored and forgotten and won't be able to get or keep ES qualifications anyway.

[ddelaney103]

You have to outline what a "regular member" has to do that a "reserve member" doesn't.

Right now, as long as I stay current with my ES ratings and safety briefings, I don't have to do much else.  As a SM, there's no attendance percentage to keep from getting 2B'ed.  As long as I'm sending back "C/W's" to the mandatory safety briefing e-mails and showing up for missions, I could avoid meetings forever.  I may not get promoted, but it's not like I'd miss the pay increase.

[RiverAux]

And I'll say again that this is geared mainly at people not currently in CAP and that probably wouldn't join CAP under normal circumstances, primarily people too far from a unit to participate often enough that anyone would consider them "regular" members.  Any benefits involving existing members would be an extra.  A good retention program cannot be topped, though judging by our numbers, there are not many units focusing on that issue.

[Major Carrales]

And I'll say again that this is geared mainly at people not currently in CAP and that probably wouldn't join CAP under normal circumstances.

Why would we want to do that?  If these people don't have the passion to join CAP nor the time to dedicate to it, then their interest lies elsewhere.  "Normal circumstances" is the ambient condition of CAP, if they cannot exist in that reality then it is not yet their time to be in CAP. 

I don't see how these people would be anything more than undertrained.  We already have a status for people on "sabbaticals" and "leaves of absense," its call Patron Status.

This issue suffers from "inherency" problems, it lacks "significance" and "solevency" and it may produce "harms."  In terms of policy debate, this policy is somewhat lacking as far as the stock issues go.

[Hawk200]

I think this idea is officially unpopular and likely unworkable. 

I get that there isn't a lot of support from those willing to post.  I don't mind.  Just because its unpopular doesn't necessarily mean that its a bad idea...

No, you don't consider a bad idea because it's yours. Sorry, RiverAux, but you have yet to show any real increase in efficiency over the time and cost to implement it.

If it takes more time or money to implement than is gained through application, it's not worth it. It can be done now, but you would add another extraneous step.

Adding extra steps for the sake of extra steps is the kind of stuff that causes organizations to waste away under the burden of their bureaucracy.

[jeders]

And I'll say again that this is geared mainly at people not currently in CAP and that probably wouldn't join CAP under normal circumstances, primarily people too far from a unit to participate often enough that anyone would consider them "regular" members.  Any benefits involving existing members would be an extra.  A good retention program cannot be topped, though judging by our numbers, there are not many units focusing on that issue.

Say it with me. "Quality, not quantity."

[RiverAux]

And just who said that they're not quality?  If they meet our ES standards, they meet the standards.  If you don't like them (and I don't like all of them myself), work to get them raised.  Different issues entirely. 

The person who has 20 hours a week to spend on CAP is great, but they are very few and far between.  They are the backbone of the organization.  However, you need a whole lot of other stuff to put over that backbone to have a fully functioning organization.  Heck, science has even recently figured out why we probably have an appendix, which everyone had thought was useless. 

Quality not quantity is a great motto, but it is not always true. 

If I've got 5 planes to crew and have enough pilots and observers, but only 2 scanners, it will not matter how great the observers in the 3 planes without scanners are, they are not going to be able to look for the target on the left side of the plane.  Would you rather have that seat go empty and have to send another sortie over that grid to ensure full coverage?  In these cases, quantity does matter more than quality.  A scanner that does his 2 flights every 2 years is going to be better than an empty seat.   

Yeah sure, some of these scanners probably won't get a lot of airtime compared to the regulars and might get a little queesy, but given that I've never heard of anyone in CAP ever worrying about getting scanners enough flight time, I don't think that that is an argument that is going to carry much weight.     

Back at mission base would you rather have to have the Wing Director of Communications serving as the radio operator because of a shortage of personnel?  Obviously he can do the job, but his experience is better used in other jobs.  I've seen this done often.   Wouldn't it be better to call in a Reservist?  Same goes for quite a few other jobs that don't require significant training or refresher work to do around the mission base.  Put Reservists in those slots and let the regulars go do the jobs that require a bit more experience. 

[lordmonar]

River you are just barking up the wrong tree.

Sure you can use your reserve status to recruit those people who only want to help out once in a while, every now and then.

But......

Why can't we do that now?

Why create a whole new membership class just to make what we already have more complicated?

[RiverAux]

Because I think that it would help get the concept across a little better.

Its not like we would need to totally revise all of CAP to make this change.  Heck, it would just take a few paragraphs in the regulations and a different category in the CAPWATCH database. 

However, I think that this would need to be something that would need to be field tested in a few wings first.  We would need to come up with a template for a wing supplement outlining the program that could be used by those in the testing program. 

In the chosen Wings, I would first work on developing a statewide Reserve squadron and would find a real go-getter to lead it.  That person would have to be extremely dedicated to recruiting, especially in towns somewhat outside our normal sphere of influence.  I would probably want a former squadron commander, well versed in ES, heading up the program.  He would need to do the organizing for the training classes needed to get the recruits up to speed on everything. 

Once we had a few Reserve squadrons up and going, I would want to observe how they do for a few years in terms of participation, overall retention and in how well they stayed up-to-date on their ES work.  Also, I'd want to keep track of their mission participation in terms of what they did and also what they were asked to do, but didn't (for whatever reason). 

If it turned out that we did great at recruiting, training, and retaining Reservists but that they just didn't show up for missions when they were needed (or that they had a worse show-up rate than others), then we could conclude it didn't do the job. 

I would also want to look at whether any significant percentage of Reservists ever went active as well. 

If I was running the overall test program I would be pretty rigorous about tracking various aspects of the program before considering taking it nationwide.  Not every idea works well in practice. 

[Hawk200]

And just who said that they're not quality?  If they meet our ES standards, they meet the standards.  If you don't like them (and I don't like all of them myself), work to get them raised.  Different issues entirely. 

The person who has 20 hours a week to spend on CAP is great, but they are very few and far between.  They are the backbone of the organization.  However, you need a whole lot of other stuff to put over that backbone to have a fully functioning organization.  Heck, science has even recently figured out why we probably have an appendix, which everyone had thought was useless. 

Quality not quantity is a great motto, but it is not always true. 

If I've got 5 planes to crew and have enough pilots and observers, but only 2 scanners, it will not matter how great the observers in the 3 planes without scanners are, they are not going to be able to look for the target on the left side of the plane.  Would you rather have that seat go empty and have to send another sortie over that grid to ensure full coverage?  In these cases, quantity does matter more than quality.  A scanner that does his 2 flights every 2 years is going to be better than an empty seat.   

Yeah sure, some of these scanners probably won't get a lot of airtime compared to the regulars and might get a little queesy, but given that I've never heard of anyone in CAP ever worrying about getting scanners enough flight time, I don't think that that is an argument that is going to carry much weight.     

Back at mission base would you rather have to have the Wing Director of Communications serving as the radio operator because of a shortage of personnel?  Obviously he can do the job, but his experience is better used in other jobs.  I've seen this done often.   Wouldn't it be better to call in a Reservist?  Same goes for quite a few other jobs that don't require significant training or refresher work to do around the mission base.  Put Reservists in those slots and let the regulars go do the jobs that require a bit more experience. 

River, you seem to have this idea that because someone is in a membership category of "Reservist", they will be automatically available at any and all times that a full member is not. That's a dream.

Just because you create a new class of membership doesn't mean that those people will always be available. If they're showing up less than the more involved members, they will have lower quality training. You can spend a month training a scanner, and if they don't use it in a years time, they're going to be lower quality.

If you want people to organize into a team dedicated to mission training, then do it. What you're advocating can be done, right now. What does christening them "Reservists" do to advance anything? I can't see a single thing that having a "Reservist" membership would do for anyone, other than make the personnel system a little more complex. We have AE, and CSM's, and they have legitimate places, there really is no need for anything else.

[RiverAux]

River, you seem to have this idea that because someone is in a membership category of "Reservist", they will be automatically available at any and all times that a full member is not. That's a dream.

No, I don't think that at all.  The reason I think it might be a good idea is that I've had to rustle up aircrews before and ran out of members before running out of jobs.  However, simple logic tells me that the more qualified people I have to fill a slot, the better chances I have at finding at least one of them to fill it when needed. 

[jeders]

River, you seem to have this idea that because someone is in a membership category of "Reservist", they will be automatically available at any and all times that a full member is not. That's a dream.

Just because you create a new class of membership doesn't mean that those people will always be available. If they're showing up less than the more involved members, they will have lower quality training. You can spend a month training a scanner, and if they don't use it in a years time, they're going to be lower quality.

Plus, if they can't participate in normal stuff, what makes you think that they'll have time to go out a 3 am and stay our for the duration of the mission.

And also, CAP is a reserve organization. We don't need an additional reserve group within a reserve organization.

[lordmonar]

River, you seem to have this idea that because someone is in a membership category of "Reservist", they will be automatically available at any and all times that a full member is not. That's a dream.

No, I don't think that at all.  The reason I think it might be a good idea is that I've had to rustle up aircrews before and ran out of members before running out of jobs.  However, simple logic tells me that the more qualified people I have to fill a slot, the better chances I have at finding at least one of them to fill it when needed.

So....recruit.   Tell your recruits that once they are mission qualified they only have to go to 1 meeting per quarter (just to throw out a number) and enough SAREX to stay current.

Also you can always ask other units to support.

[RiverAux]

Plus, if they can't participate in normal stuff, what makes you think that they'll have time to go out a 3 am and stay our for the duration of the mission.

Because I see them primarily being used in the larger missions.  If your unit can't handle routine ELT missions with its regular members then you've got other problems.  Could Reservists be called out for ELT missions?  Sure, most likely if you've got a few assigned to your unit that are in that local area, then they might be the last on your call out list and you might get to them every now and again. 

[Hawk200]

Plus, if they can't participate in normal stuff, what makes you think that they'll have time to go out a 3 am and stay our for the duration of the mission.

Because I see them primarily being used in the larger missions.  If your unit can't handle routine ELT missions with its regular members then you've got other problems.  Could Reservists be called out for ELT missions?  Sure, most likely if you've got a few assigned to your unit that are in that local area, then they might be the last on your call out list and you might get to them every now and again. 

River, if units aren't growing regular members, why do you think that this "Reservist corps" is going to have more people?

It almost seems like you  think this Reserve idea is the be-all, end-all answer to the lack of ES qualified members. People in a lesser needed status are going to pick easier jobs, not more technical ones.

Sorry, man, but this concept is a non-starter. It doesn't solve any actual problems. It just creates a new membership type with no gain in efficiency, manpower or administration.

[RiverAux]

River, if units aren't growing regular members, why do you think that this "Reservist corps" is going to have more people?

How often do I have to say that the primary target for Reserve recruitment would be people who live too far from a unit to regularly participate in activities?  These people have not and would not have joined CAP in the first place.  Therefore, if they joined as a Reservist it logical to assume that this would result in a net increase in members who would potentially be available for missions. 

It almost seems like you  think this Reserve idea is the be-all, end-all answer to the lack of ES qualified members. People in a lesser needed status are going to pick easier jobs, not more technical ones.

Not all all.  Ideally every unit would be fully staffed with plenty of extras to ensure that they could meet all missions.  Ideally these people would be participating fully in CAP.  I am all for traditionally recruiting and training and under any scenario that should remain our primary focus.  Unfortunately, the "ideal" situation is not where we are always at.

I see a Reserve program as a way to supplement the traditional programs only.

[Eclipse]

How often do I have to say that the primary target for Reserve recruitment would be people who live too far from a unit to regularly participate in activities?  These people have not and would not have joined CAP in the first place. 

With good reason - we need people who can participate beyond a "ticket punch" level.  If they can't attend meetings regularly, they will not be current enough to be of any use.  They will be the official underclass of people who are out of currency, with outdated credentials and little knowledge of SOP and nuances of changes.

At least one person indicated training doesn't happen at the unit meetings, while that may (sadly) be true for some, its not for my most effective units.  With so little contact time as it it, we've relegated "what's new" to the internet and moved to hands-on training at most meetings.  SAREx's are supposed to be situations where you show up and practice what you already know, not walk-in with a wet 101 and start asking the IC how you get started.

The reserves will show up to our highest-visibility, highest-stress missions with uniform issues long since changed, outdated pubs, and their lack of recent activity will increase the ORM numbers on every sortie they run.  At a time when we need our most experienced, able, members to be playing their "A" game, these members would be stumbling into each other trying to spell ICS.

And when we challenge them on it, they will flash their ID with the "RSV" next to their name and look at us like >we're< nuts for making an issue of it.

We already have that today.  If anything, we need to push people to participate MORE to retain membership and currency, not less.

[RiverAux]

If they can't attend meetings regularly, they will not be current enough to be of any use.

They would receive training as part of an annual training day/weekend that would be more than sufficient to keep them proficient in the basic jobs I see them performing. 

The reserves will show up to our highest-visibility, highest-stress missions with uniform issues long since changed,

Already said that I'm open to limiting them in their uniform choices as a way to prevent this.

outdated pubs

Obviously there would be a way to keep Reserve members updated on changes in official policies or procedures that take place between annual training.  Not that difficult of an issue to address. 

If anything, we need to push people to participate MORE to retain membership and currency, not less.

And this wouldn't keep you from doing it and I would strongly encourage you to do so. 

[Major Carrales]

And now, the 64 Thousand Dollar Question...

What are your motives for being so passionate about this?

Do you want to be one of these reservists?  Do you want to admminster this program in your Wing?

Also, I have noiced even in my own CAP experience that "Out of sight is out of mind."  I stay active in CAP because I am actively working to build it, creating new programs and seeing me blokes on a weekly basis.  When I went, less than active, a few years ago, it was as I said.  I didn't think of CAP, so when thye would call it was like..."uh...who is this?  Oh...meeting on Tuedays?  Uh...that's Church Bingo night.  Sorry?  SARex on Satruday, uh...I'm doing something for the Knights of Columbus that day, sorry.  Mayebe nextime."

You have to be realistic, CAP Reservists are not going to want to do this.  Plus, I can see it full of "fair weather" CAP officers.

[Eclipse]

If they can't attend meetings regularly, they will not be current enough to be of any use.

They would receive training as part of an annual training day/weekend that would be more than sufficient to keep them proficient in the basic jobs I see them performing. 

Sorry, once a year is not enough for church or CAP.