What was this Uniform?

[Major Carrales]

[mikeylikey]

A McPeak trial and error.  That is the academy behind the man right? 

[Major Carrales]

A McPeak trial and error.  That is the academy behind the man right? 

Looks like Iraqi shoulder marks.

The blog I got this from...

http://moltenthought.blogspot.com/2006_07_09_archive.html

said this...

"Bradley C. Hosmer was the first Academy grad, class of '59. He went on to become Superintendent, one of which there are numerous funny stories. Here he models the horrible uniform Air Force Chief of Staff Merrill McPeak tried to force on everyone in the early 90s. We used to refer to it as the "Friendly Skies" getup, since it looked like nothing so much as an airline pilot's suit. Of course, McPeak's "leadership" led to many, many Air Force personnel seeking airline jobs:"

[mikeylikey]

Not Iraqi....the man is wearing his ring on the wrong hand.  Iraqis wear them on the right hand.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

The "farts and darts" in the thick general's sleeve stripe were a nice touch, but it was a little freaky when I first laid my eyes on that McPeak uniform test in person.

[mikeylikey]

^ Did he win??

[lordmonar]

That was NOT a test uniform....that WAS the uniform until Mc Peak went bye bye and the new commander changed things back.

It's one of the reasons why Pineda did not really bother me.....I lived through a professional.....Pineda was a light weight in comparison.

[alamrcn]

My squadron held a uniform class on "reading" the bands on the cuff when this uniform sudenly came into use. They might as well have been teaching me how to read a barcode, because I just couldn't get used to it - and thank goodness I didn't have to!

This was around the same time as the black leather name badge on the BDUs. We just rencently (a couple years ago) took down several recruiting posters off our walls that featured this and other obsolete McPeak'ers.

-Ace

[Stonewall]

This was around the same time as the black leather name badge on the BDUs.

Here ya go.  This was 1991 at my Airborne School graduation.   For those of you who didn't know about this, Gen McPeak didn't just change the blues, he also left his mark on BDUs.  Personally, I think it was a lot easier to have a simple leather nametag on your BDUs instead of sewing everything on.  But it got a big "no-go" in my book on looks.

[jimmydeanno]

EEEEEEWWWW, and I thought ultra-marine blue on white was bad 

I don't think that the epaulet sleeves on the blues above look all that bad - in fact, I kind of like them.

[davedove]

This was around the same time as the black leather name badge on the BDUs.

Here ya go.  This was 1991 at my Airborne School graduation.   For those of you who didn't know about this, Gen McPeak didn't just change the blues, he also left his mark on BDUs.  Personally, I think it was a lot easier to have a simple leather nametag on your BDUs instead of sewing everything on.  But it got a big "no-go" in my book on looks.

As far as looks, you've probably got a point.  It would definitely be easier though.  And if it were the same tag as on the flight suit, it would minimize the number of things the member would have to buy.  Instead of having different insignia for each uniform, one could just transfer the same nametag to whatever uniform is being worn (assuming you use velcro).

[Stonewall]

You know, for creating a whole new uniform for the Air Force, I just did a General McPeak search on google and couldn't find a single picture of him in his uniform.  I remember when they put his portrait in the AF Corridor in the Pentagon, he was in his uniform.   I'm betting he has big regrets about that one.  Bet he hired folks to delete all pics of him hin his uniform in existence.

[ddelaney103]

You know, for creating a whole new uniform for the Air Force, I just did a General McPeak search on google and couldn't find a single picture of him in his uniform.  I remember when they put his portrait in the AF Corridor in the Pentagon, he was in his uniform.   I'm betting he has big regrets about that one.  Bet he hired folks to delete all pics of him hin his uniform in existence.

Your kung fu no good...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gen_Merrill_McPeak_1993.jpg

[riffraff]

Why is it that General Officers feel the need to be fashion designers? Post-service career aspirations?

The US Army had Shinseki and his Rambo-look.  The USAF had to endure McPeak and his hybrid USN/RAF/Airline suit.

Hats off to USMC. While I'm sure they've made subtle uniform changes over the past 75 years, a Marine in dress blues still looks the same as his WW2 predecessor. Continuity, heritage, tradition, esprit-de-corps.

US Army now heading back to blue. Apparently another fashion-designer wannabe General wanting leave a lasting impression and USAF yearning to wear US Army uniforms. You'd think we had better things to spend the nations $$ on.

Any wonder TP hopped on the bandwagon? It's apparently what generals do these days.

[Stonewall]

You know, for creating a whole new uniform for the Air Force, I just did a General McPeak search on google and couldn't find a single picture of him in his uniform.  I remember when they put his portrait in the AF Corridor in the Pentagon, he was in his uniform.   I'm betting he has big regrets about that one.  Bet he hired folks to delete all pics of him hin his uniform in existence.

Your kung fu no good...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gen_Merrill_McPeak_1993.jpg

Dern it!!!  Dern SNCOs....

Didn't he also come up with the whole "all, some or none" as far as ribbons?

EDIT....AND the whole v-neck thing.  I heard his wife (notice he's not wearing any rings) came up with the "I like a man's hair to show when in uniform" v-neck idea.

[ddelaney103]

Why is it that General Officers feel the need to be fashion designers? Post-service career aspirations?

The US Army had Shinseki and his Rambo-look.  The USAF had to endure McPeak and his hybrid USN/RAF/Airline suit.

Hats off to USMC. While I'm sure they've made subtle uniform changes over the past 75 years, a Marine in dress blues still looks the same as his WW2 predecessor. Continuity, heritage, tradition, esprit-de-corps.

US Army now heading back to blue. Apparently another fashion-designer wannabe General wanting leave a lasting impression and USAF yearning to wear US Army uniforms. You'd think we had better things to spend the nations $$ on.

Any wonder TP hopped on the bandwagon? It's apparently what generals do these days.

Uniforms are changed for reasons - some good, some bad.

McPeak wanted to redefine the AF.  Some say that the uniform changes were flares for people to bite off on while he made major changes in the AF, but I have no proof.

Shinseki was trying to reinforce the "One Army" concept and its expeditionary nature.

The MC is a small org that is willing to blow big bucks on uniforms.  I'm pretty sure the Army would have a problem eating that cost.  The move to blue is in some ways a cost cutting action by dumping Class A's - which is a pretty ugly uniform, especially when they moved to mint green shirts.

[ddelaney103]

You know, for creating a whole new uniform for the Air Force, I just did a General McPeak search on google and couldn't find a single picture of him in his uniform.  I remember when they put his portrait in the AF Corridor in the Pentagon, he was in his uniform.   I'm betting he has big regrets about that one.  Bet he hired folks to delete all pics of him hin his uniform in existence.

Your kung fu no good...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gen_Merrill_McPeak_1993.jpg

Dern it!!!  Dern SNCOs....

Didn't he also come up with the whole "all, some or none" as far as ribbons?

EDIT....AND the whole v-neck thing.  I heard his wife (notice he's not wearing any rings) came up with the "I like a man's hair to show when in uniform" v-neck idea.

I'm not sure if he came up with "all, some or none," but he was pushing navy style with the "top three ribbons look."  The uniform was definitely navy/RAF-esque.

While the uniform wasn't too bad for officers, enlisted took it on the chin, style-wise.  I will not miss the departure of this Service Dress.

[riffraff]

During my time in the Army, the most notable changes were a switch from green to black for shoulderboards, lightweight jackets, etc.

[ColonelJack]

The worst part of the McPeak blues was the lack of lapel insignia of any kind.

McPeak wanted the purchaser of the uniform to not have to poke so many holes in it -- ribbons, badges, name plate, rank, lapel brass -- so he eliminated as much of it as he could.

What was really bad was when his successor (Gen. Fogelman?) reinstated the lapel brass, he allowed the same U.S. for enlisted and officers.  Bad form, in my book.  I wore the circled U.S. and -- like most -- thought the EMs should do the same.  Thankfully, they do now.

People who think the Corporate Service Uniform is bad should thank their lucky stars we didn't get stuck with leftover McPeak stuff!

Jack

[IceNine]

Any wonder TP hopped on the bandwagon? It's apparently what generals do these days.

This is not a new phenomenon, IIRC all of the now 5 stars had their own variations of whatever uniform they chose to wear.  And I've seen may a picture of Nimitz without a uniform at all, standing on the deck of a ship.

[Pylon]

And I've seen may a picture of Nimitz without a uniform at all, standing on the deck of a ship.

That may be because of Chester Nimitz's lifetime appointment to Fleet Admiral by Congress.  Thus, even though he retired the Chief of Naval Operations post in  1947, he technically remained on active duty with full pay and benefits for life.  Would you want to wear your uniform every day, even after you wanted to retire? 

[riffraff]

This is not a new phenomenon, IIRC all of the now 5 stars had their own variations of whatever uniform they chose to wear.  And I've seen may a picture of Nimitz without a uniform at all, standing on the deck of a ship.

True, general officers have always had latitude with how they dressed. Different matter entirely when these same guys start playing at fashion committee chairman/chief designer for their entire organizations.

How much money is USAF dumping into the Hap Arnold uniform only to end up with essentially the same uniform that was used from 1949 thru the 1990s? I don't know if things have changed much but Class A uniforms tended to only be worn upon graduation from BMT/OTS and maybe once or twice a year thereafter.

[Hawk200]

I don't know if things have changed much but Class A uniforms tended to only be worn upon graduation from BMT/OTS and maybe once or twice a year thereafter.

That's about the rate I wore mine in ten years of active duty. In a way, ironic that we would have a uniform that is so rarely needed.

[riffraff]

IMO, the problem with all the service dress jackets is that they're impractical in their design. By this, I mean the skirt of the jacket. You can't sit with it on or else it gets wrinkled.

A modified version of the Ike-style jacket (longer in torso) would be much better suited for daily use, considering the amount of time most folks spend sitting these days. No change for placement of badging.

The service dress uniform was designed to be a field uniform -- i.e. the pockets were intended to hold things.

[Major Carrales]

The service dress uniform was designed to be a field uniform -- i.e. the pockets were intended to hold things.

This is correct, thsi idea to add pockets to the tunic began around the time of the Spanish American War and evolved into the WWI uniform with the high collar.  As the nature of warfare changed due to paradigm shifts, such as the "layering" concept where soldiers addressed winter conditions with layering and khaki/tan uniforms for desert climates, there began the development of "field" and "dress" uniforms following WWII and Korea.

Service Dress has fallen into limited use because of the tendency of society to be less formal.  While men of the early 20th century wore suits (even to Baseball games), their children and granchildren elected to dress down.  Thus, in environments that would have seen a suit or shirt and tie in 1935-1965, we see persons in tee shirts and golf shirts today.

Also, filed uniforms are being worn in environments that were traditionally Service Dress environments (i.e. combat and field uniforms being used in Congressional Testimony).  Ironically, a legislator I talked to finds that practice somewhat disrespectful.  He maintains that service dress is more appropriate for that sort of environment.  Field dress is sort of like wearing work clothes to church.  I don't know how wide spread that type of thinking is.  I also understand that service men and women do so to remain in a "combat mindset."  You tell me?

The McPeak idea does seem to have been a "sign of things to come" en re a change in USAF culture.  Thing is, many people have a more traditional and nostalgic attachment to what a military uniform looks like. 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

That was NOT a test uniform....that WAS the uniform until Mc Peak went bye bye and the new commander changed things back.

It WAS a test uniform when I saw it. The sleeve rank never made it past the wear tests. They called the finished uniform the "retrofit" because it added epaulets and officer sleeve rank back, as well as the "U.S." for all personnel.

McPeak and a bunch of others, as high-ranking people always do, got their hands on the new stuff, so it's no wonder you're seeing general-officer photos with them. But they never were a regulation uniform the way you see McPeak wearing it in the above photo.

[Major Carrales]

That was NOT a test uniform....that WAS the uniform until Mc Peak went bye bye and the new commander changed things back.

It WAS a test uniform when I saw it. The sleeve rank never made it past the wear tests. They called the finished uniform the "retrofit" because it added epaulets and officer sleeve rank back, as well as the "U.S." for all personnel.

McPeak and a bunch of others, as high-ranking people always do, got their hands on the new stuff, so it's no wonder you're seeing general-officer photos with them. But they never were a regulation uniform the way you see McPeak wearing it in the above photo.

I wonder how long he would have kept it in that configuration, if it had caught on, after the first reporter at the Pentagon called him "Admiral" or "Commodore."  Honestly, if I didn't know better, I might think he was (at first glance) a Commodore in the Merchant Marine.

Apologies to General McPeak, but that uniform was too much and too far off the mark. 

[lordmonar]

It WAS a test uniform when I saw it. The sleeve rank never made it past the wear tests. They called the finished uniform the "retrofit" because it added epaulets and officer sleeve rank back, as well as the "U.S." for all personnel.

Sorry sir...but I think you are mistaken.  The sleeve rank did make it to production...it just did not last long.  The "retrofit" was the kit they made to add the epaulets for all the service coats that officers were wearing when Fogleman came on board.

[JayT]

It WAS a test uniform when I saw it. The sleeve rank never made it past the wear tests. They called the finished uniform the "retrofit" because it added epaulets and officer sleeve rank back, as well as the "U.S." for all personnel.

Sorry sir...but I think you are mistaken.  The sleeve rank did make it to production...it just did not last long.  The "retrofit" was the kit they made to add the epaulets for all the service coats that officers were wearing when Fogleman came on board.

Would you by any chance have a picture of the enlisted version of it?

[lordmonar]

It WAS a test uniform when I saw it. The sleeve rank never made it past the wear tests. They called the finished uniform the "retrofit" because it added epaulets and officer sleeve rank back, as well as the "U.S." for all personnel.

Sorry sir...but I think you are mistaken.  The sleeve rank did make it to production...it just did not last long.  The "retrofit" was the kit they made to add the epaulets for all the service coats that officers were wearing when Fogleman came on board.

Would you by any chance have a picture of the enlisted version of it?

The enlisted version is exactly like what we are wearing now minus the "U.S." circles and the name tag.

The O version used the same basic coat but added the sleeve rings for rank.

[lordmonar]

Here's a link to the enlisted version of the TM uniform

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Gary_R._Pfingston.jpg

[JohnKachenmeister]

The Navy-style sleeve rank did make it into the regs, as did the general officer shoulder boards with the two longitudinal stripes.

As I recall, it lasted about a year, maybe less.  The Army guys all laughed at AF officers, telling them they looked like squids. 

We should not have laughed so loud.  They're laughing at us now that the Army has to wear the "Monica Lewinski Memorial" black berets!

[billford1]

The Army Rangers may not have laughed when they had to change from b;ack berets to tan.

[PHall]

The Navy-style sleeve rank did make it into the regs, as did the general officer shoulder boards with the two longitudinal stripes.

As I recall, it lasted about a year, maybe less.  The Army guys all laughed at AF officers, telling them they looked like squids. 

It lasted just over a year, then General Mc Peak got fired as Chief of Staff and was replaced by General Fogelman who promptly reversed many of General Mc Peak's uniform decisions.
The current Service Dress uniform is just about the last "Mc Peak" uniform still around.
And even that is now in the process of being replaced.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The Army Rangers may not have laughed when they had to change from b;ack berets to tan.

Nope.  The Rangers didn't think it was funny at all.

[ddelaney103]

The Army Rangers may not have laughed when they had to change from b;ack berets to tan.

Nope.  The Rangers didn't think it was funny at all.

The question is: did any of them quit over it?

Most of the really cranky types were former Rangers, like that march guy.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I don't know if any quit, but Rangers are not normally quitters.

Ranger School WILL make you a little cranky.

[PHall]

The biggest source of complaints about the Rangers having to switch to the Tan berets seemed to be from former/retired Rangers.
The one's serving at the time just saluted, said "yes sir" and got on with it.

Just like you'd expect a professional to do.

[Major Carrales]

The biggest source of complaints about the Rangers having to switch to the Tan berets seemed to be from former/retired Rangers.
The one's serving at the time just saluted, said "yes sir" and got on with it.

Just like you'd expect a professional to do.

Well said. 

[ColonelJack]

^^ Which causes me to wonder ... when the Army goes back to blue and reinstates regular wear of the service cap, what becomes of the beret?  Will it still be worn with the new ACU?

Jack

[MIKE]

Supposedly service caps and striped trousers are for NCOs and above only.  Berets will still be worn by SPC and below according to what I saw on the ASU.

[Hawk200]

^^ Which causes me to wonder ... when the Army goes back to blue and reinstates regular wear of the service cap, what becomes of the beret?  Will it still be worn with the new ACU?

Jack

Beret is worn by E-4 and below. Service cap is supposed to be an option for E-5, and up.

At least that's what the last I saw on it was.

Wish they would just can the beret anyway. It's not really all that practical, just a piece of "cool" head gear.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

It WAS a test uniform when I saw it. The sleeve rank never made it past the wear tests. They called the finished uniform the "retrofit" because it added epaulets and officer sleeve rank back, as well as the "U.S." for all personnel.

Sorry sir...but I think you are mistaken.  The sleeve rank did make it to production...it just did not last long.  The "retrofit" was the kit they made to add the epaulets for all the service coats that officers were wearing when Fogleman came on board.

Nope, not mistaken. I saw it the first time while the uniform was being wear-tested. A female major in the West Virginia ANG, in fact. Took me a few seconds to realize what I had just seen. Maybe it was because it was the female uniform, but yes, the first time I saw it was during the wear test period.

[DNall]

Beret is worn by E-4 and below. Service cap is supposed to be an option for E-5, and up.

yeah, but E-5+ or not, no one is going to wear a beret w/ class Bs, so the beret will still have a use. Personally I think it's stupid. It looks really cool, at least mine does, but it's a pain & completely impractical, plus you see all kinds of people, even that been around a while, that have theirs all jacked up looking. That's embrassing. Honestly, I wish they'd just stick with PCs for ACUs & bring back garrison caps (flt hats for you AF folks). I always though garrison cap would be better for flt suits too, like every other service does it, but since we're going to the two piece I guess that doesn't matter anymore.

Far as the McPeak junk, yeah it look real dumb & was real expensive. I actually like the current service coat. It's clean lines & fits just right. I don't like the hap arnold coat. Looks like a costume party jacket. The belt is going to be a disaster, at least in CAP. Then we'll have to have an updated corporate-style version too I'm sure. If they wanted to change, I'd just assume go back to the pre-McPeak coat (the old style ones cadets still wear) in the current fabric. The AF has more history with that coat than any other uniform.