Strange...

[Major Carrales]

WIWASC ("When I Was A Squadron Commander" -- trying to start a new acronym  ) I sent up a lot of promotions that were just checkmarks on the form and never had a problem. 

Well, I am a Squadron Commander presently and that is not my experience. 

I find that if I send a "naked form" that is just check marks for things like special promotions they will come back rejected.  Likely due to the abuses of the past.

And, lets keep the newspeak (WIWASC) to a minimum.

[Short Field]

My day job is lecturing corporate and military clients about SOUBS -- Stomping Out Unnecessary Bull S--t.

CAP is working hard to streamline our processes - most promotions and speciality track advancements are handled on e-services with minimal paperwork.  The only level that really knows how a person is performing and particiapting is the squadron - with the Squadron Commander making the decision if the performance and participation are adequate. 

The only cases where HHQs need to be vigilent and require justification are those "good old boy" promotions done under the Special Appointments/Promotions section for "Exceptional Qualifications (waivers).   

The criteria for the rest of the promotions is very clear cut.  Failure to promote someone who qualifies should be the exception to the rule and require specific justification.

[RiverAux]

Well, unless it isn't something that isn't in a checkbox, then you shouldn't have to explain it any further.  The only item that requires any additional explanation is if you're trying to use the "Exceptional Qualifications" waiver, which will have to go up to Region.  Everything else is obvious. 

[jb512]

Well I know they don't have to honor it, by the regs, but you would think that a Major, retired from the Corps would qualify for his gold leaf on a grey slide with a side of CAP on it...

[Eclipse]

Well I know they don't have to honor it, by the regs, but you would think that a Major, retired from the Corps would qualify for his gold leaf on a grey slide with a side of CAP on it...

Devil's advocate only...

Why?  What specific skill, knowledge, or mission capability does he bring to CAP?

Would he expect to walk into a non-military SAR organization, with nothing else but hid 214 and expect to be a mid-high-ranking leader on day one?

[jb512]

Well I know they don't have to honor it, by the regs, but you would think that a Major, retired from the Corps would qualify for his gold leaf on a grey slide with a side of CAP on it...

Devil's advocate only...

Why?  What specific skill, knowledge, or mission capability does he bring to CAP?

Would he expect to walk into a non-military SAR organization, with nothing else but hid 214 and expect to be a mid-high-ranking leader on day one?

He's a pilot.

[Major Carrales]

Promotions honoring prior service and exceptional skill are OK in my book because they reflect experience and training.  If a lawyer comes to the unit or an experienced teacher or even pilot, I have no ethical problem with them obtaining rank in CAP.

Still, I would think that documenting that up the chain is important.  We are not a "rinky-dink" outfit where rank is a mere trifle.  The only reason it is seen a somewhat "meaningless" is because people at places like this forum seem to want it that way.

On the contrary, CAP rank needs to have meaning...in CAP.  A refelection of where one is in the program.  Just like ribbons.  I can easily tell a newby to CAP, even if its a Capt or Major, based on which ribbons do not appear. 

Some out there seem to think ribbon wear is also a trifle, however, I submit that (unlike the military) CAP ribbons speak volumes about what a person has done since they are issued as a graduation to various levels.

[Monty]

Promotions honoring prior service and exceptional skill are OK in my book because they reflect experience and training.  If a lawyer comes to the unit or an experienced teacher or even pilot, I have no ethical problem with them obtaining rank in CAP.

Still, I would think that documenting that up the chain is important.  We are not a "rinky-dink" outfit where rank is a mere trifle.  The only reason it is seen a somewhat "meaningless" is because people at places like this forum seem to want it that way.

On the contrary, CAP rank needs to have meaning...in CAP.  A refelection of where one is in the program.  Just like ribbons.  I can easily tell a newby to CAP, even if its a Capt or Major, based on which ribbons do not appear. 

Some out there seem to think ribbon wear is also a trifle, however, I submit that (unlike the military) CAP ribbons speak volumes about what a person has done since they are issued as a graduation to various levels.

Wow, Joe.  I'm not gonna begrudge a man his opinion, but when I read this, I'm left wondering....

"How many GS-08+ types on DoD installations throughout the world are living with a complex because their training, experience, and lack of 'grade' representation goes unnoticed.  Shoot, the GS-12 base fire chiefs must be seething in emotional pain over the matter."

I'd love to know how they feel about not getting to be saluted, stood up for, wear their civilian-type medals....and I sure would like to know the telephone number of the crisis intervention line they call when they feel inadequate next to the visiting CAP Major on base, with his 10 rows of ribbons, service cap, and uber-compliance with all things DoD.

Might get a base commander's permission to pass the number on to a few senior members I know.

[RiverAux]

The point is that the CAP promotion form has checkboxes for a reason.  If he is a pilot, check the pilot box and the box for the appropriate rank.  You don't need to write a memo saying he is a pilot and then attaching a copy of his license.  Yes, you need to keep that stuff in his personnel file at the squadron, but there is no need to send proof up the line.  Same with former military coming in or anything else.  It is the squadron commander's job to make sure all that stuff is in line. 

[riffraff]

CAP is working hard to streamline our processes - most promotions and speciality track advancements are handled on e-services with minimal paperwork.  The only level that really knows how a person is performing and particiapting is the squadron - with the Squadron Commander making the decision if the performance and participation are adequate. 

The only cases where HHQs need to be vigilent and require justification are those "good old boy" promotions done under the Special Appointments/Promotions section for "Exceptional Qualifications (waivers).   

The criteria for the rest of the promotions is very clear cut.  Failure to promotion someone who qualifies should be the exception to the rule and require specific justification.

Which nicely sums up my point. The squadron is where participation is measured and should be where promotion is held up. If our hypothetical major is only there for the bling and not participating the Sqdn CC shouldn't even fill out the Form 2.

However, if the Sqdn CC feels participation is acceptable has reviewed the DD-214, there's really no reason for anyone further up to reject the paperwork. It's very doubtful that someone at Group/Wing has more insight into squadron-level participation than  the squadron CC. You really need to wonder if there's some type of bias at play? Has anyone ever held up a CFI promotion to instant Captain?

Personally, between a promotion for a former military officer and a CFI with no military background, I'd be more inclined to take a closer look at the CFI. At least the military officer has completed formal training commensurate with the grade being requested. The CFI has an FAA ticket to teach -- hardly the same backgrounds.

[RiverAux]

There is always the possibility (often a strong one) that the person up the chain of command doesn't understand the rules in the first place and doesn't realize that they are denying a promotion that should in fact be granted. 

[Major Carrales]

The point is that the CAP promotion form has checkboxes for a reason.  If he is a pilot, check the pilot box and the box for the appropriate rank.  You don't need to write a memo saying he is a pilot and then attaching a copy of his license.  Yes, you need to keep that stuff in his personnel file at the squadron, but there is no need to send proof up the line.  Same with former military coming in or anything else.  It is the squadron commander's job to make sure all that stuff is in line. 

There is always the possibility (often a strong one) that the person up the chain of command doesn't understand the rules in the first place and doesn't realize that they are denying a promotion that should in fact be granted.

Well, since you put it like that.  Maybe you won't mind talking to my Group and Wing commander, since they are the ones demanding it be done that way.  Since they are both former USAF field grade officers I  imagine they will find your comments...fascinating.

[RiverAux]

Well, if they're wanting the additional documentation there isn't much that can be done about it as it is within their authority to ask for it.  I think it is a waste of everybody's time to do so and isn't required by regulation. 

I certainly wouldn't start sending up additional documentation, memos, etc. on my own volition. 

[Major Carrales]

I'd love to know how they feel about not getting to be saluted, stood up for, wear their civilian-type medals....and I sure would like to know the telephone number of the crisis intervention line they call when they feel inadequate next to the visiting CAP Major on base, with his 10 rows of ribbons, service cap, and uber-compliance with all things DoD.

I should think this is a moot point since a USAF Officer and a CAP Officer operate in different universes.

I believe that prior service and exceptional qualifications get you what they get in CAP.  The USAF is beyond the scope of our control and their opinions on the matter are ancillary when compared to the operational effectiveness of CAP to do what it does with what it has.  Which is quite alot.

If the Marine Major is not getting the becessary promotion, then someone needs to sit down with the Chain and see what transpires in that situation.  Posting it on a forum like this will have little effect on the outcome via the chain of command and old drift off into a conversation on service caps and salutes.

[Major Carrales]

Well, if they're wanting the additional documentation there isn't much that can be done about it as it is within their authority to ask for it.  I think it is a waste of everybody's time to do so and isn't required by regulation. 

I certainly wouldn't start sending up additional documentation, memos, etc. on my own volition. 

Agreed, let us disarm this debate and speak on it no further.

[Hawk200]

If our hypothetical major is only there for the bling and not participating the Sqdn CC shouldn't even fill out the Form 2.

I don't know many retired military personnel that are just there for the bling. They do it so they can continue serving. That very statement is insulting to them.

[Major Carrales]

If our hypothetical major is only there for the bling and not participating the Sqdn CC shouldn't even fill out the Form 2.

I don't know many retired military personnel that are just there for the bling. They do it so they can continue serving. That very statement is insulting to them.

Hawk you are correct, it has been my experience that most prior service CAP Officers that come to our squadron are looking to continue serving in CAP.  As pilots their motto is "Fly for fun, fly with a Purpose."

[riffraff]

If our hypothetical major is only there for the bling and not participating the Sqdn CC shouldn't even fill out the Form 2.

I don't know many retired military personnel that are just there for the bling. They do it so they can continue serving. That very statement is insulting to them.

I'd prefer to determine for myself what I find insulting, thanks   :angel:

Granted the overwhelming majority of former military are there for the exact reasons mentioned -- to continue serving. Unfortunately overwhelming majority does not include all. I've had the unfortunate experience to see at least two instances of bling-fever from former military members.

Also, please note that I referenced a hypothetical major and not the retired USMC major referenced at the beginning of this thread.

[Major Carrales]

OK, lads...let's not go down this road.  I can say with conviction that Hawk is prior service and your words may have hit close to home.  Let us just leave it at what it is and move on.

[Eclipse]

To bring us back to the actual topic, an off-handed conversation regarding promotions in general revealed to me that, at least my region, is now formally boarding all Lt. Cols, >and< all professional / special / prior military appointments (i.e. cfi=capt, etc.).

From what I understand, the idea is to try and lesson the number of walk-ins who get all spun up, receive advanced grade and then do not participate.

I know in the past year or so, there has been a lot of talk about demoting professional appointments who do not serve in the role for which they received the grade.

As this is happening at the region level, my assumption is that this is not exclusive to my region, but likeky happening all over.